0:00 CHRIS BRENNAN: Hi, my name is Chris Brennan, and you're listening to The Astrology Podcast. Today is Friday, March 5, 2021, starting at about 1:31 PM, in Denver Colorado, and this is the 294th episode of the show. Today, I'm going to be talking with Israel Ajose, and we're going to be talking about the astrology of the Moon and the significations and meanings and different uses of the Moon in astrology. So hey, Israel thanks for joining me today. ISRAEL AJOSE: Thank you very much for having me, Chris. Great catching up with you. It's been a while. But yeah, I think this is the first time we've had a conversation in 2021, right? CB: Yeah, first time. So we've been planning this episode for almost a year now. IA: Yeah. CB: You previously appeared in Episode 213 of The Astrology Podcast, but that was actually
0:46 when I visited London… IA: London, yeah. CB: ...and did interviews with a bunch of different astrologers on my last trip to Europe before the pandemic hit. And I haven't been able to visit again, but hopefully, again, one of these days. IA: Hopefully soon once the airlift is raised or something. CB: Yeah. So when I talked to you last, when I was there in Episode 213, we talked about that you were at the time the vice president of the Astrological Lodge of London. But since that time, you've actually become the president of the Astrological Lodge, right? IA: Yeah, that is correct. A lot's happened. Yeah, it's been a great honor to have been elected the president. And I was actually even making the point with Kim, who was the former president, that I believe I'm the first black president
1:38 of the Astrological Lodge, and she says, “Well, never mind about being the first black president. You're the first ‘non-white’ president of the Astrological [Lodge].” So that was like a great accomplishment, I felt, but it's a great honor. I've got a great team around me, I've got really good support, and yeah, just looking forward to taking the Astrological Lodge bigger, wider. We're also online since last year due to the pandemic as well. As many astrological organizations have started to operate online, so we're now online as well. So our weekly lectures are also taking place online, so it's really a great move forward. CB: That's awesome. So yeah, I mean, that's a great lineage that you're in at this point, becoming the president of the lodge,
2:26 and you're taking over from Kim Farnell, who had been the president for I think at least a decade. IA: Yeah, 12 years actually. CB: 12 years? Okay. IA: She did... CB: A whole Jupiter cycle. IA: ...yeah, a full Jupiter cycle. And if my mind serves me correctly, she was actually in a 12th house profection as well, which was quite interesting; which was sort of like leaving it and then I came in, so that was quite interesting. CB: So previous presidents of the lodge have been people like, I think Nick Campion was the president of the lodge at one point... IA: Yeah, correct. CB: ...and going all the way back to a century ago when the lodge was founded by Alan Leo, right? IA: Yeah, was founded by Alan Leo. The first president was actually Bessie Leo. A lot of people feel that Alan Leo was actually the president, but he was never the president.
3:11 His wife, Bessie Leo, was actually the president. CB: Awesome. IA: And then we have the likes of Charles Carter who was the longest-reigning president. I believe he was there for like 25 years or so. A remarkable astrologer. For any of you guys who know his books, he's written quite a few books. His books on aspects are quite remarkable actually, I really recommend that. CB: Was Geoffrey Cornelius president at one point? IA: Yes, he was president also as well. Claire Chandler. Ronald Davidson. So we've had a few. CB: Yeah. Well, those are big shoes to fill, but that's really exciting and really awesome. And so, due to the coronavirus pandemic,
3:57 you've started doing your meetings online. But that means that people from anywhere in the world can attend your weekly meetings, right? IA: Yeah, that is correct. As we all know, the pandemic, since that, everything has been going on online now. It has its pros and cons just like anything in life. So we are getting more of a new audience and we've got some members who actually live outside of London, even in the UK, that live outside of London who wouldn't be able to make weekly visits to the Astrological Lodge because it's too far. And then we also have members also outside of the UK, and obviously, they wouldn't be able to come or attend lectures weekly in the UK either. But now, it's available for them to be able to
4:48 attend online, so that's really wonderful. Plus, we've been getting some new people and new faces, so that's great as well. But a lot of the members who are there, they have been saying that they missed that physical because there is a kind of social aspect to it as well; on Monday nights, we'd go out and perhaps have a drink. You were there in the pub with us the last time you came, so it was quite cool. CB: Sometimes that's the best part--meeting up at the pub afterwards and talking about the lecture, talking about the topics that were presented. IA: Exactly. CB: Well, hopefully, it'll be back before too long, now that the vaccines are being rolled out and everything else.
5:33 IA: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, hopefully. Well, they reckon over here in the UK by June, May-June, so around that time. So hopefully, everything eases up, and we can come back out again and start running things as they were. CB: Cool. All right, well, people can check out more information about the lodge at AstroLodge.co.uk. And maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that at the end, but let's segue into our main topic today, which is the astrology of the Moon. IA: Yeah. CB: And this is actually something you're presenting a lecture on for the lodge next week, right? IA: That is correct. Yeah, I’m speaking on the Moon. It's actually a replacement talk, but I came in and put in
6:22 something on the Moon. So I'm going to be talking about applications and separations of the Moon and how that manifests in the natal chart and how it shows particular pivotal periods throughout life. CB: Brilliant, okay. So we talked about doing this episode last year, and one of the points that you made was just that the Moon is often overlooked, especially in the 20th century, due to the emphasis on Sun-sign astrology in modern astrology. But traditionally, the Moon was given a lot of importance in astrology and it has many different roles and uses, right? IA: Most definitely. And it's not a criticism or having a go, but I also think it may even
7:07 shed a bit of light about what the Moon is about. It's very interesting because generally in astrology, people will speak about the Moon sort of like it's an inner part of our self, or it's a more private part of our self. And that's quite interesting because most people on the planet, pretty much everyone knows their Sun sign. Even people who don't believe in astrology or know nothing about astrology, they all know their Sun sign; but I can guarantee you most people don't know about their Moon sign, which I think that says something within itself. I think it's showing us here that there is something hidden, there's something mysterious about this particular planet, and why is it that this planet doesn't seem to get as much attention as the Sun.
7:56 And of course, for obvious reasons, we look at the Sun, it comes out in the day. So if we look at it from a symbolic perspective, the Sun is giving us light; it's giving us warmth. It rules the sign of Leo also as well: so it's all about bright; it's all about attention; it's all about being at the center. Whereas with the Moon, it comes out at night when most people are sleeping, or they're in their house and the windows are closed and so on and so forth. So the Moon is just as powerful as the Sun, but the Moon seems to be operating on a sub-level or a hidden level of some kind, and I feel that's one of the reasons why it tends to be overlooked.
8:41 Again, I'm not having a criticism with modern astrology, but we open up astrology books and very often they'll say the Moon represents your ‘emotions’, and it represents ‘mother’. And yes, it is all of that, but there is far more to the Moon. The Moon may be showing us and telling us much more about who, what, why, and when in our life than we may actually realize in the birth chart. CB: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So we're going to go into the significations of the Moon today. We're going to read some excerpts from different ancient and modern authors on what the Moon means. IA: Yes. CB: And we're also going to talk about different techniques that involve the Moon in astrology. So in traditional astrology and ancient astrology,
9:28 they actually paid a lot of attention to the Sun, the Moon, and the rising sign. IA: Yes. CB: One of the changes that I'm really liking that's happened over the past few years is it seems like the younger generation of astrologers, it's starting to be more common for people to know their ‘big three’--their Sun, Moon, and rising--which is a nice shift. IA: Yeah. CB: But this might be a good starting point for giving people that are just getting into or just learning about their Sun, Moon, and rising more insight into what the Moon sign is all about. IA: Most definitely. And we have to remember that, again, Alan Leo has a lot of input in this insofar as this idea of Sun-sign astrology. We have to remember it's, at best, maybe 100 years old. It was due to the popularization of
10:17 astrology columns being in magazines and newspapers and them referring to the Sun sign; that's where it became popular. I mean, prior to that it was well known that when somebody asks you, “Oh, what's your star sign?” the first thing actually you would say is, “Oh, I'm Cancer rising, Libra Sun.” You would always state the rising sign first, which was something that I started to see when I started to study Vedic astrology, for example. I started to notice when I went to India, talking about astrology, the first question they would ask is, “What's your lagna?” which is their terminology, the Sanskrit terminology for the rising sign,
11:04 and there was much more emphasis on the rising sign. And then the next question would be, “What's your Moon sign? What's the Chandra lagna? What's nakshatra is your Moon in?” because they placed a lot on it. So it was rising sign first, then it was Moon, then they'd ask for the Sun; the Sun always sort of came last. What I've noticed, predominantly in the West, we've taken a more solar approach it seems. So when we talk about astrology, even just meeting somebody on the road or whatever or just even a general chat, the first thing, “Oh, what star sign are you?” We always go to the Sun sign; we always seem to go to the Sun sign first. Not necessarily that it's wrong, but I'm just saying that there seems to be more attention or lenience, or we could say a bit of a bias towards the Sun and more is left out.
11:56 But I’m in total agreement with you in that I'm very happy as well to see a lot of the new people or the youngsters coming into astrology now learning about their Ascendant signs and learning about their Moon signs also as well. CB: Yeah. One thing maybe to go along with what you're saying is that the Moon sign and the Ascendant sign are much more personal because those change much more frequently, with the rising sign or the Ascendant changing every hour or two, and the Moon sign changes every two or three days versus the Sun sign, where the Sun spends an entire month going through each of the signs of the zodiac. And it takes a whole year to go all the way around the cycle, so it's a little bit less unique in that sense.
12:44 And additionally, the Moon is the closest celestial body in our solar system to us, which makes it also a little bit more personal or a little bit more important in terms of things happening on Earth. And I think that's one of the reasons why traditional astrologers tended to emphasize the Moon in charts in every branch of astrology; not just natal astrology, but also in electional astrology and horary astrology much more as well. IA: Yeah, most definitely. Totally agree. And I think that's one of the most key and fundamental points about the Moon, to know that it's the closest planetary body to us, and because of that the Moon is very, very ‘Earthy’. And I think it's quite remarkable also that the Moon is also exalted in a sign like Taurus. Taurus is perhaps one of the most ‘Earthiest’ of all
13:34 zodiac signs, so I feel it's very appropriate for Her to be exalted in such a sign. Although the Moon is connected with our emotions and how receptive we are, there's something about the Moon that really manifests in this physical realm; the Moon is actually known for pulling down all of the celestial energies. When we look at the planetary order, the Chaldean order, for example, we see the Moon is at the bottom; it's the final one. So the Moon is actually the first planet. When we incarnate into this physical world, the Moon is actually the first planetary archetype that we come into contact with.
14:22 As a matter of fact, we're in contact with that lunar energy whilst we're in the womb. And even in the natal chart, the Moon can shed story and light on the kind of condition that we were experiencing while we were in our mother's wombs. In the technique known as the ‘Seven Ages of Man’, it starts off with the Moon. You see, we go through these particular periods where each planet shows a particular period of life, but the first one is the Moon. So the Moon is the first thing we meet when we are born into this physical world; so the Moon is setting the tone, it's setting the foundation.
15:11 Our first earthly experience, whether for good or for ill, is all situated around our Moon's placements in the birth chart, and this is one of the reasons why I feel that the Moon must be highly regarded and of extreme importance. I don't necessarily want to say it's more important than the other planets, but it must be highly regarded, definitely. It's on par definitely with the Sun, the two luminaries. CB: Yeah, that makes sense. And mentioning the Sun is really important, but that'll be a digression. But just the fact that from our vantage point on Earth--when you look out into the night sky, or you look at the sky--even though the Sun is
15:58 so much further away from us than the Moon is, and the Moon is so much closer, they actually are pretty much almost exactly the same size from our vantage point on Earth, so that there's a sort of parity between them in some sense in terms of just that observational distinction from our perspective on Earth, which is relevant, even though it's not true from let's say a universal sense. If you're standing outside and looking at the solar system, the Sun is much bigger. But there's something about that visual component when you're actually looking at celestial phenomena that actually makes a difference, the fact that they're the same size. IA: Yeah, most definitely. And symbolically that is letting us know that there's something about the Moon and about the Sun, that they're on par. It's both king and queen. It's both
16:48 father and mother. It's both masculine and feminine. Day and night. They both have equal power, equal rights. They'll express it in their own way of course, which there will be a difference in that, but they're on par. CB: That makes sense. I found a diagram that I made a while ago that shows the traditional notion of the seven spheres in Hermetic and Gnostic and other cosmologies. Before birth, the soul was said to descend through the planetary spheres from the realm of the fixed stars, and then it would go through each of the spheres and it would pick up different qualities from each of the planets along the way. And then the last sphere
17:36 that you go through before birth is the sphere of the Moon, which is the closest to the Earth. IA: Right. CB: So that's one of the things that you were saying in terms of the Moon being the celestial body most closely connected with the Earth and the physical body and physical incarnation. IA: Yes, most definitely. And as we get into it, the Moon is connected to the physical body; it is the body. It's quite interesting even from a scientific perspective. It's quite interesting because we say in astrology that the planets ‘don't compel us, they impel’. And there tends to be this idea or this school of thought, especially
18:29 sometimes in astrology, that it's the forces or the gravitational forces of the planets that are somewhat controlling us or making us do things in some way, shape, or form, and science would say there's no evidence of that. However, the only planet where there is some scientific evidence of planets having some effect on us is the Moon, reason being because we know the Moon has an effect on the waters, on the tides, on the oceans. It controls the ebb and flow. It controls aspects of nature, animals. Oysters are said to open up during Full Moons and
19:16 things of that nature, so we see animals responding to the cycles of the New Moon and the Full Moon. Now if the Moon has a such a profound effect on the waters, the physical body as we know it, science will tell you is 70-75% water; so it's going to have some kind of pull or some kind of effect which can be even measured scientifically on the physical body in some kind of way. And it's only the Moon that can do that--where we can make that, if you want to say, correlation or rational explanation. Other planets, we can say, “Oh, well, we don't
20:06 know that Saturn's doing that.” Again, it's all symbolic, but the Moon gives us something tangible is what I want to get to. It gives us something ‘earthy’ that we can really make a correlation to. It’s doing something. It's connected with that physical body. CB: Yeah, that's a really good point because that actually ties into an episode I did last month with T. Susan Chang on astrology and tarot and whether astrology is a form of divination in the same way that tarot is. And one of the things we talked about in the conclusions that we came to was that there are similarities in terms of the use of symbolic thinking and the interpretation of symbolism in astrology that's very similar to tarot. And there's some
20:56 authors, like Geoffrey Cornelius, that argue that astrology is entirely divinatory like tarot and other forms of divination, but then astrology is tricky because it always blurs boundaries. IA: Yeah. CB: Traditionally, astrology was associated with Mercury, which often tends to straddle both sides when there's an issue or where there's a difference between two sides. And astrology is kind of like that, in that there is that symbolic or divinatory and symbolic part of astrology, but then there's also potentially, at least in some limited cases, causal influences from certain celestial bodies, such as, as you're pointing out, the Moon and its effect on the tides, as well as other natural phenomenon; and then also the Sun and its effect on the seasons through
21:45 different levels of light, during different parts of the years. So that's a really good point that helps Valens out the other side of that discussion about what is the mechanism underlying astrology. IA: Yeah, yeah, most definitely. It makes total sense. That's why personally I feel astrology and all divinational methods do have both components. They have that, if you want to say, rational side of things, but they also have that part which is non-rational--it's based on symbolic, intuitive or imaginative--and it's about being able to use both sides. We shouldn't throw one out for the other; it's not a case of whether it's this or that. Both are
22:35 actually operating; both hemispheres of the brain are actually at work. I know sometimes it can bring up a bit of a paradox or a bit of confusion. “If it’s this or if it's that, why can't it be both?” which is the Mercury aspect of it. CB: Yeah, I think that's crucial to understanding the nature of astrology. And that's something I've been really focused on for like 10 years or so now is just the mercurial, or what I call sometimes the ‘hermetic’ nature of astrology. And as a result of that being a part of its basic nature, you will sometimes run into issues where there's a divide even in the techniques of astrology. And there's a question of is it this one thing or is it this other thing, and sometimes the answer isn't either/or but that it's both.
23:26 IA: Yeah. And I feel that it's part of human nature. That's the aspect of the ego that's looking for ‘the one’, where it can feel safe and feel maybe protected in some kind of way, or feel like it’s got it; it's got the answer. And life is not like that. Life is not black and white. There's actually more happening in the gray areas than there is on the side of the black and white, and it's about being able to take different aspects. It's okay for people to have different methods or different techniques, or to be able to see it from another perspective in a different way; it all works, so let's welcome it all. CB: Yeah, that makes sense. All right, so
24:16 other basic stuff that we want to get to, I wanted to show a little image really quickly to show the glyph for the Moon, for those not familiar with that. So this is the symbol for the Moon using the classic Astro Font, which I believe was made by Kenneth Hirst. So in terms of the traditional rulership scheme or the traditional essential dignity scheme, the Moon is said to rule the zodiacal sign of Cancer, and the sign opposite to that which is Capricorn is known as the sign of the detriment, or what I call sometimes the ‘antithesis’ of the Moon; the sign opposite to its home or opposite to its domicile. The exaltation, as you said earlier, is said to be Taurus, and the sign opposite to Taurus is said to be the sign of the Moon's fall
25:06 or depression, which is the sign of Scorpio. IA: Yeah. CB: So that's just basic stuff. But for those coming in, I think this is going to be the start of a series on each of the planets where I might go through and do this for each of them. And I thought this would be a good starting point, doing the Moon with you, but I wanted to set up some of those basics as we sort of go along and go through this. IA: No problem. Yeah, sounds great. Can't wait. CB: All right. So let's see--I'm trying to think if there's anything else before we dive into reading some significations of the Moon from some ancient and modern authors. Is there anything else you want to touch on, that we should touch on first, before jumping into that? IA: No, no, we're good to go. CB: Okay. So in that case, I have a few authors that I wanted to read. Over the past 2,000 years,
25:59 there’s sometimes, in astrological textbooks, just lists of significations and meanings for different planets, and I wanted to take some excerpts from different authors that lived in different eras to show you both some of the similarities as well as some of the differences in how ancient and modern astrologers talked about and conceptualized the Moon. IA: Yeah. CB: So this first one that I wanted to show is from the 2nd century astrologer Vettius Valens, who, in the very first chapter of his Anthology, gives significations for each of the seven traditional planets. And this is from my translation, which is in my book titled, Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and Fortune. So what Valens says is, “The Moon [which in Greek
26:50 is Selenē] is born from the reflection of the solar light and, possessing a counterfeit light, signifies in a nativity man's physical life, the body, the mother, conception, <form>, appearance, goddess, living together or lawful marriage, nurse, older sibling, housekeeping, the queen, mistress of the house, possessions, fortune, city, gathering of the masses, gains, expenditures, home, boats, travel, wanderings,” and then it has a parenthetical remark where he says, “(since it does not hold a straight line due to [Cancer] the Crab).”
27:38 Then he goes on and he says, “Of parts of the body, [the Moon] rules the left eye, the stomach, breasts, the breath, the spleen, membranes, and marrow (from which it produces dropsy). Of substances, she rules silver and glass. She is of the nocturnal sect, light green in color, and salty in taste.” IA: Now that's a lot. CB: Yeah, it covers a lot of ground. IA: That covers so much ground. We could be here from now until the next three months going into detail on one of those things. And if we look at some of the words that Valens uses there—the physical body, the life,
28:26 the breath--many of those words wouldn't even be considered in today's explanations or expressions of what the Moon is essentially about. All of our life is really encompassed in those keywords that Valens was using there. It's connected with all aspects of life. All aspects of physical life are the Moon: our daily life; our lifestyle; what we eat; how we get possessions, money. It’s
29:13 also connected with traveling, wandering. A few weeks ago, I remember I posted something and I spoke about the Moon having her joy in the 3rd house. And I remember somebody emailed me and said, “What? The Moon has her joy in the 3rd house?” Again, we can kind of see the connection there because the 3rd house is associated and linked with ‘travel’, and we can see how–‘boats’, ‘crossing the waters’, ‘wandering’-- why she would have her joy in that particular house. So the Moon is really fascinating. When we really start looking at many of these keywords, which you mentioned by
30:01 Valens there, it's very, very important, indeed. It's our incarnation in the most physical level; that's what that Moon represents. CB: Yeah, and that's his very first signification. And it's interesting because we could have started this series with the Sun. We're starting with the Moon, and I think that's actually a good idea for the most part because of the Moon being closer and how important it is in astrology. But one thing that we are missing by starting there is that Valens, in his significations, he gave the Sun first, and he associates the Sun, because it’s the concept of light, he associates the Sun with the intellect and the soul and the spirit and the mind and intelligence of the person.
30:52 Because the Sun emits light versus the Moon, he talks about the Moon receiving light and reflecting light. And also, because it's the closest planetary body or celestial body to us, one of his very first significations is physical life in the body and the physical incarnation, so that is probably a really good starting point. And this runs through much of the tradition, just the notion that the Moon has to do with one's physical incarnation and physical body as opposed to one's mental or spiritual body, let's say. IA: Yeah, definitely. And just to digress there a moment, there may be a little bit of bias there. If we go into
31:39 pretty much most spiritual teachings, they speak about perhaps the beginning. If you go to the Bible or something and they speak about the creation, the first thing that seems to have been created was that light. In the Bible, they say, “Oh, it was non-form and darkness.” So again, it's actually giving us a clue that maybe aspects of the Moon, that feminine archetype, was actually there in the first place. It's quite interesting. In all mythologies, very often, when they speak about the creation, there's always water there first before anything else; nobody can seem to explain how the water got there, but there always seems to be
32:27 water. The Moon is the planet that presides over the water--so again, we're tapping into that feminine energy there--but the Sun, or the light, seems to be the first thing that was given birth to or was created in some kind of way. So the light seems to take precedence again, the masculine energy--and that could have been maybe a patriarchal thing as to why it is that the Sun comes first. So it may be a patriarchal manifestation of the schools of thought of the time, but I would say the Moon was also there as well; again, just as important. CB: That makes me think of the ancient
33:16 mythical birth chart for the birth of the world in Hellenistic astrology called the Thema Mundi. It was said that the world’s birth chart is supposed to have Cancer rising, with the Moon in Cancer in the Ascendant, and the rest of the planets flanking out in zodiacal order based on their relative speed and distance from the Sun in Leo, next to Mercury in Virgo, then Venus in Libra, Mars in Scorpio, Jupiter in Sag, and Saturn in Capricorn. But it has the Moon very prominently placed on the Ascendant, in the 1st house, for the birth of the physical cosmos. IA: Yeah, I'll take that. CB: You'll take that? You'll accept that as the… IA: I'll accept that, definitely. CB: Okay. IA: The Moon comes first,
34:04 especially for us on planet Earth because it is in the birth chart. It is the most personal planet; you can't get more personal than the Moon. CB: Right. Yeah, that's a really good point. Okay, so ‘physical body’ as contrasted with the ‘mind’ or the ‘intellect’ or the ‘spirit’ in ancient astrology. You talked about how the Moon is associated with the 3rd house according to the ‘planetary joys’ scheme, and I thought that was going in an interesting direction. So let me see if I can pull up a diagram that I have for the ‘planetary joys,’ just so I can show people that, because that's actually a really interesting point. Here it is for those watching the video version, just a diagram that shows the ancient concept of the joys of the planets, where
34:58 Mercury is said to have its joy in the 1st house and it's said to be associated with the 1st house, Saturn in the 12th house, Jupiter in the 11th, opposite to Venus having its joy in the 5th, Mars in the 6th. And then the Sun has its joy in the 9th place; the 9th house is actually called the ‘house of god’ and it's opposite to the Moon having her joy in the 3rd house, which is said to be the ‘place of goddess’. IA: Yes. CB: So sometimes the ancient astrologers, like Vettius Valens, instead of referring to 3rd house, 9th house, 10th house or what have you, they'll call the house by its name. So they would say ‘the place of goddess’ or ‘the house of goddess’ for the 3rd house. IA: Yeah. CB: So one of the
35:43 points that you were making is then as a result of that, probably partially due to that connection, the Moon has some inherent significations of its own that have to do with travel and wandering and also messages, but also the 3rd house picks up some significations traditionally from that as well. IA: Yeah, most definitely, and perhaps even with brothers and sisters. I've been just pondering for quite a long time as to the ‘house of joy’ of the Moon. Is there an association with brothers and sisters? Well, of course you're gonna have some kind of emotional bond or some kind of emotional connection with brothers and sisters. I know one can say, “Oh, well what about the parents?” Well, yeah,
36:29 they're our parents, but we don't communicate or we don't ‘vibe’ with our brothers and sisters the same way we do with our parents; we may want to ask our parents for permission for something. But with our siblings, especially if the age gap is not too wide, there’s something there about that family. There's something there about that emotional bond that we can play with, that we can connect, and it's very lunar-orientated. It's something different from mother and father; and again, it's also in that house as well. And again, on top of that, then we get the traveling too.
37:16 CB: Yeah, that's a good point. So Valens says ‘older siblings’ is one of the significations of the Moon. IA: Exactly. CB: So in addition to that, ‘the mother’ is one of the first significations that he gives in terms of other family members, as well as ‘the nurse’ or the concept of ‘being nursed’. But that connection with the mother then is important. Valens connects the Sun with ‘the father’ and the Moon with ‘the mother’, but that in and of itself might tie us back into some of the physical connotations in the sense of you are with your mother for your first, let's say, nine months of physical life, from conception until birth, and are essentially an extension of her body in and of itself. So
38:02 there's this real physical connection with the mother and so we see some connection there. IA: Yeah, most definitely. And the thing is while we're in our mother's wombs for those nine months--that's the thing with the Moon; the Moon doesn't separate. She sees everything as one; there's almost like a merging into one. So when our mothers are pregnant with us, when we're in the womb for those nine months, there is no separation; child and mother are one. And even when the child is born, after the umbilical cord is cut, we still have to go to mother for the nurturing; hence, why the Moon represents the nurturing. We rely on our mothers
38:52 to perhaps breastfeed us or whether it's a bottle also as well; these are the kinds of things that tends to be the mother's duty to do that. I'm not saying father can't be involved in nurturing the child also as well, but it's primarily the mother's duty to do that. The father can't breastfeed; it's the mother that does that. So there's this nurturing quality that really ties us in with that lunar energy, with that Moon energy. CB: Yeah, that's a really good point; just the idea of the mother physically feeding from her own body the infant and that connection there, again, in terms of a real physical quality to that. IA: Yeah. And hence why, when we go to
39:41 Valens’ keywords, he lets us know that the Moon rules the ‘breasts’. One of the main purposes of the breast is to breastfeed the child, to provide the child some kind of nurturing comfort, so we see the link and the connection there. CB: Yeah, that's a really good point. And that also ties in with the--I don't know the traditional term. I've heard it referred to as the ‘Zodiac Man’ or the traditional associations of the different signs of the zodiac with different body parts. IA: Body parts, yeah. CB: I'm trying to find one really quickly, just using Google Search, where you
40:29 start by assigning the first sign of the zodiac, which is Aries, to the ‘head’ and the ‘top of the body’, and then you work your way down to Taurus with the ‘throat’, and Gemini with the ‘arms’ and the ‘shoulders’. And then Cancer is next and it ends up being the ‘chest’ or the ‘breast’. IA: Yeah, the breast, but the Moon also presides over the ‘stomach’. Why stomach? Because what goes into the stomach is the food. It's the food that nurtures us, that keeps us alive, that sustains us. So again, you have the breast that feeds the child and the stomach that the food goes into; those are the things that the Moon or Cancer preside over. CB: Yeah, and that food connotation is really
41:20 important with the stomach, and then through that the connection with food and physical sustenance and that which it takes in order to maintain one's physical body and physical life, which is quite separate from a more solar thing of what it takes to maintain oneself and one's mental or spiritual life or what have you. But that connection between the Moon and food then is somewhat important, which then also ties it into two signs, Cancer and Taurus, the sign of its exaltation that is also sort of connected with that as well. IA: Yes, most definitely. I would definitely agree with that, yeah. CB: You mentioned Taurus being in the sign of its exaltation. But you, my friend, are a Moon in Taurus native, right? IA: Certainly.
42:07 CB: Okay. Do you share your chart? Do you feel comfortable sharing your data? IA: Yeah, most definitely. Let the world see. CB: Okay, because I learned that it was important just before we started talking. You actually were born with Cancer rising, and the Moon as the ruler of the Ascendant exalted in Taurus, in a night chart. IA: Yeah, so that's very powerful. I'm sure we're going to be talking about that in regards to the sect, which we will be discussing, I'm sure, further down the line, and how the Moon rules the nighttime chart or its in sect by nighttime. So that is something of an advantage for
42:53 me, I suppose. But I do find people who are born in the night or who have nocturnal charts; they respond to the Moon in a different way than people who are born in the day. I see the emotional responses, the physical responses, the lunar responses tend to be far more stronger for nocturnal births than diurnal. CB: Yeah, I agree, so let's get into that. So that's the ‘doctrine of sect’, which is the distinction between day and night charts that's used in ancient astrology. And in that doctrine, there's a bunch of things connected with it--I did
43:38 an episode on the astrology of sect a few months ago--but one of them is that there's a distinction between what's called the ‘sect light’ or the ‘luminary’ that's in charge during different parts of the day. During the daytime, the Sun is the luminary that's in charge and that provides light. But at night, when the Sun goes down below the horizon--anytime the Sun is in the bottom-half of the chart then it's nighttime—then the Moon becomes the ‘sect light’; and the Moon is the one that provides light at night and basically becomes the luminary at that point. And this also sets up a distinction between two teams of planets where you have a ‘daytime’ or ‘diurnal’ team of planets, which is led by the Sun, and its teammates are Jupiter and Saturn,
44:24 and then there's the ‘nighttime’ team, which is led by the Moon, and its teammates are Venus and Mars. So that's basically the ‘doctrine of sect’ without getting into it too much, but that does, going back to your point from earlier, set up a sort of parity between the Sun and the Moon where they're much more even in ancient astrology than in some later traditions. IA: Yeah, most definitely. And it lets you know that the traditional and even medieval astrologers acknowledged this. They acknowledged the power of the Moon and the importance of the Moon and what she represented and the weight of what she held
45:10 based on even just sect. Again, it's Sun and Moon. It's masculine and feminine. It's king and queen. God and goddess. We cannot throw more weight on one than the other. They both have equal rights, so to speak. CB: Right. And so, that's one interpretive distinction that people should pay attention to, like you mentioned, right from the start. If you're born with a day chart, if you're born during the day, then your Sun sign might be a little bit more important to you, but if you're born at night then your Moon sign and the position of the Moon in your chart may actually be more important to you than your Sun sign. IA: Yes, most definitely. The energies of the Moon are more readily accessible, so to speak,
46:01 for the person who's born in the night. Now that doesn't mean if you're born in the day that your Moon is void in some way, shape, or form. You still have the emotions. Obviously, you're still going to have a mother; you still need nurturing also as well, but it may not be something of importance. It may not be at the forefront of certain things that you witness or circumstances in life than somebody who was born in the night, where the Moon is the ‘sect ruler’; they function more from an instinctual perspective, we could say. That's probably a fair statement, that people who have nocturnal births tend to function or tend to move more from a lunar instinctual
46:55 manner than people who were born during the day. CB: Okay. Yeah, there's a whole thing we could get into there about the Moon providing light during the night and this question that I've been trying to work through about to what extent then does the Moon at night become almost like the solar principle of indicating light and the intellect and the soul and things versus what does the Sun become at night; if a person has a night chart, what does it signify. I think that would be too long of a digression to go into, so I'll save that. IA: But it's quite interesting. I think it's still a very interesting point. What happens to the Sun? I mean, if we, again, go into a little bit of mythology, if we go to Egyptian mythology, for
47:43 example, they had the idea that when the Sun set in the evening, he was swallowed up by the serpent and he was eaten, so there was no Sun. Of course there's no sunlight at night, but there was no Sun; it is eaten up. And if we look at the chart where the Sun is traveling during the nighttime, it goes through that 4th house, which is a place of endings. It's also where the rebirth starts as well, but it's a place of endings in some kind of way. So the Moon is more alive. She has more power. She is in charge. If we look at them in terms of rulers--kings, queens, rulerships--the Moon is ruling
48:33 the nighttime; that is her time; it's not the Sun’s. It doesn't mean that the solar principle is not there, but it's just not at the forefront. We can liken it maybe to president or vice president. In the daytime, the Sun is the president and the Moon can be vice president maybe, whereas in the nighttime, it's reversed. The Moon is the president and the Sun is vice president; he's in the background. CB: Yeah, I think that's a really good way to talk about it, president versus vice president, and which one has a more primary or commanding role during that part of the day versus which one's still a player and is still important, but is taking a secondary role in some sense. IA: Yeah. CB: All right, so one other thing I want to mention--one of the things that one of my
49:23 teachers, Robert Schmidt, mentioned and noticed when he was reading through the significations of Valens is that Valens focused on certain overarching concepts that seem to be tied into the traditional planetary rulership scheme, which puts certain planets in opposition to different planets; and Rhetorius of Egypt, in the 6th or 7th century, also puts the basic significations of the planets in opposition to each other based on those domiciles. But some of the keywords that Schmidt noticed--and I've adapted this a little bit from him--is that the Sun's basic principle and many of its significations is that it emits light or it emits things; it shines or it radiates in the sign of Leo especially. And this is opposite to
50:15 Saturn having its domicile in Aquarius, and Saturn and many of its significations having this principle of rejecting things or saying no to things. IA: Or excluding. CB: Right. So the Moon, on the other hand, has this basic signification or core meaning underlying many of its significations of gathering and receiving things, and this is opposite to Saturn's principle in Capricorn of excluding things. So I think that concept of gathering or receiving things is a really important core principle underlying the Moon that comes up in many of its significations that would be good for us to keep in mind. IA: Yeah, most definitely. She represents our
51:01 receptor. She represents how we receive things. If we go back to the base, one of the major words that we use for the Moon,--‘emotions’, how we receive emotions. If we go back to nurturing, well, how was the nurturing? Because in order to be nurtured, it implies that you are receiving something: if somebody's feeding you, if somebody's giving something to you. So how we receive, how receptive are we, depending on what sign our Moon is in and what house and the aspects and the condition of our Moon, shows us how is it that we are able to receive. And when I talk about receive, I'm not just speaking on an emotional level, but also on a
51:48 physiological level as well: how we gather things; our relationship to food; our relationship to the environment; how we connect with nature, because the Moon presides over nature. So how do we receive that? How do we connect to that? How do we gather things? We collect things. Sometimes we speak about things having some kind of sentimental value, maybe something that's been passed down in the family, or we speak about people who perhaps collect lots of things and we call them hoarders; people who hoard things; again, this is all lunar stuff. As we go through life, we
52:37 gather things, we take things, and that's what the Moon represents; the Moon represents that part of us. She is the collector of all of our human and physical experiences while we are here on Earth; she is collecting all of that. And depending where she is in the chart, what position she's in, what condition she’s in, she will shed light as to how we go about gathering or receiving or collecting these particular experiences; whether it's physiologically, whether it's psychologically, whether it's emotionally, it's all there. CB: Yeah, I like that. That's really good. And it's tied in partially with the notion of the Moon receiving the light of the Sun and reflecting
53:26 it--that notion of ‘reception’--but also going back to the planetary spheres; the notion that the Moon is the lowest, and the celestial body closest to us. But because it also is the fastest, and it moves around the zodiac in just 28 days or about a month, the Moon, in ancient astrology, was said to collect all the ‘effluences’ of the other planets that filter down through the cosmos; and then the Moon collects and receives them and dispenses them to people on Earth. And that's one of the reasons why there are a number of more complicated aspect concepts like ‘transfer of light’ and ‘collection of light’ that developed in medieval astrology--that we'll talk about in a little bit--that become very important in terms of that notion of the Moon gathering and
54:17 conveying things and taking them to other parts. IA: Most definitely, yeah. And those things actually, once we start delving into the natal chart, they actually start setting the tones of how things are going to manifest and play out in our life. The Moon is the one to watch. She's the trigger; she's the trigger point. Sometimes, even in transits we've seen very often, when the Moon goes over a sensitive part in the chart--or even by transit or by progression or something like that--something tends to happen; also with New Moons and Full
55:03 Moons and these kind of important and very sensitive planetary configurations that we witness throughout the year. So the Moon is the key. I always refer to her as ‘the Oracle’, kind of like in The Matrix when Morpheus is always saying to Neo, “Look, we got to go and see the Oracle. You got to go and see the Oracle.” I always liken the Moon to the Oracle. She is our ‘Cosmic Oracle’. CB: I like that. I really like that. And the oracle also had a great like lunar energy, especially in that first film… IA: Definitely. CB: ...where she welcomes Neo in. IA: Yeah, yeah. And if you noticed as well, it's quite interesting because,
55:50 like you said, in The Matrix, she welcomes Neo in and you see she's always cooking, she's always baking cookies--this is Moon. She's always nurturing. She had all these children around her that she's looking after--this is Moon energy. CB: Right. And she even had like really bad news to tell him at one point but delivers it in a very, somewhat gentle way. IA: Yeah, she's the mother. CB: All right, so going back to Valens. Before we move on, you were talking about possessions and hoarding and that which accumulate--that which you accumulate--and one of Valens’ significations is ‘possessions’, ‘gathering of the masses’, ‘gains’, like material gains, but also ‘expenditures’;
56:37 so it's like that which you gather. IA: Yeah. So that's all our finances really. There's something there also. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the 2nd house is not finances, or Venus or Jupiter can't reflect finances, or the ruler of your 2nd house, but fundamentally, that first place we should check is the Moon. We should check the condition of the Moon because she's letting them know how much gains are we entitled to, can we get, what's the expenditures. CB: Yeah, so possessions. And then one of the interesting significations is ‘fortune’, or Tychē, in the ancient Greco-Roman mythology and the notion of Tychē as chance,
57:31 as that thing that's kind of random, but it's like an even distribution. And chance can be very fickle, and in that way sometimes the Moon is treated as somewhat fickle because it waxes and wanes and it changes very frequently compared to any of the other planets; so there's sometimes this unstable quality that gets associated with the Moon because of its changeableness. IA: Yes. And I was actually gonna also add something to that in regards to the fortune because we know we have a particular point in our chart that's known as the ‘Part of Fortune’, which is based on whether it's a daytime or nighttime, the sect, whether there's a particular way where you count from the Moon to the Sun. Obviously, if it's a
58:18 nighttime chart, you count from the Sun to the Moon; if it's a diurnal chart, you take that same distance and you project it from the Ascendant. However, of the ‘Arabic parts’, also known as the ‘Lots’, the two major ones as we know are the ‘Part of Fortune’ and the ‘Part of Spirit’. Now the Part of Fortune is always associated with the Moon, whereas the Part of Spirit is always associated with the Sun; so that's to do with more spiritual, mental kinds of situations, whereas the Part of Fortune has to do with where we can be most fortunate or
59:06 where we can perhaps maybe cultivate something in the physical world, on the physical realm. We count, maybe, the 10th house from the Part of Fortune and that can maybe give us another particular place and what kind of occupation or work that we have. But again, the point I'm trying to make is that the Part of Fortune is associated with Moon; it's lunar in its manifestations. So if the Moon is one of the key ingredients or basis of how to calculate the Part of Fortune, there should be no surprise that the Moon itself has inherent within her an element of our fortune
59:53 that we are destined to have or to cultivate or something. I feel, with the Moon, it shows us something innate. It's something that we're born with. We can cultivate that--or we can make that, or we can improve on that--we can expand on that based on our level of consciousness, but it's something that's already there. So by looking at the Moon placement in a natal chart, it can give us a very good idea of what kind of fortune is it that you are born into. CB: Yeah, I love that. That's great. And that's actually why I put the Wheel of Fortune in connection with that concept of fortune or chance, or Tychē, on the cover of my book, entitled Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and
1:00:45 Fortune, because while they conceptualized ancient astrology as the study of fate and using a birth chart to learn a person's fate, it also had to do with that sense of fortune or chance or allotment. It is a system based on chance that could study chance-like phenomenon—like the notion that at the moment that you're born, the alignment of planets, which is sort of there at that moment and is not controllable--that can tell you something about your future in the same way as when you shuffle a deck of tarot cards and pull a few cards, that that random sense of allotment, there can be something meaningful or purposeful; you can learn about the future from that IA: Yeah, definitely. I really love the cover that you use there on your book. It's really appropriate, and the title,
1:01:32 The Study of Fate and Fortune. Because there tends to be this idea that fate is something bad or negative and fortune always has to be good and full of riches and wealth and things of that nature. But I feel there are different levels of fortune and there are certain ‘fortune’ things that we may have in our life or fortunate things that we may have in our life that may need cultivating, that may need working on; they need improvements in some way. And again, if we go to the Moon, she tells us a lot about that. CB: Definitely. All right, so the last thing before we move on from Valens, we're spending a lot of time on Valens, and we’ve got several other authors... IA: He’s key. He’s key. CB: Yeah, I mean, so foundational. It covers so many foundational concepts; that's really
1:02:21 useful. I just want to show a diagram of the significations of the planets– or significations of the 12 houses that Valens gives. Because I think that—again, looking at the 3rd house--kind of keys us in on a little bit more in terms of how the significations of the Moon and having her joy in the 3rd house kind of rubbed off on the meaning of the 3rd house in ancient astrology. IA: Yeah. CB: So here's a diagram that lists the significations of the planets, and some of the significations that Valens gives for the 3rd house are ‘siblings’. So like you said, connecting siblings with the Moon. ‘Living abroad’, so travel. But also he says ‘relatives’ and ‘queen’, which is opposite from the 9th house where
1:03:07 the ‘king’ is signified. IA: Yeah. CB: Let me see what else he says about the 3rd house, if that's all of them or if I skipped any. Yeah, ‘siblings’, ‘living abroad’, ‘queen’, ‘authority, ‘friends’, ‘relatives’, ‘revenue’. So I guess that's it for the 3rd house. The only other thing that Valens mentioned that was relevant, that you started talking about a little bit, was moving around and notions of movements, because the Moon is the fastest of the celestial bodies. IA: And hence, why one of the interpretations of the 3rd house is ‘short distances’ or ‘short travel’. CB: Yes. IA: Short travel obviously is going to be quick. I want to jump in my car,
1:03:54 I want to go down the road, or I'm traveling, I don't know, 5-10 miles, 20-30 miles or something; these are short distances. It's not that the 3rd house cannot be a long distance, because 3rd house can be long distance; it can be abroad; it can be actually also in another country as well. But the thing with the 3rd house--and this is the distinction I make between the two--the 9th house is travel and the 3rd house, opposite house, also is travel. So people then say, “Oh, well, I thought the 9th house was travel? Why is travel also in the 3rd house?” but I think they're two different things. The 9th house, it's more concerned with the destination,
1:04:47 whereas the 3rd house, there's something about the liminal space. It's what's happening in between, what's happening from the moment you leave one point and you're going to the other. It's what's happening in between and that's where the connection actually happens. And I often find people who have very prominent 3rd houses, Moon in the 3rd house, when I start explaining about that liminal space, that's where they feel the energy of that Moon or the energy of that 3rd house really starting to make sense; that's where the connections all start to make sense for them; whereas the 9th house is more, “Oh, well, I'm going to Chicago,” or something like that. “I'm going to fly to Chicago. My aim is on what's gonna happen when I get to Chicago. I'm not necessarily concerned with what's
1:05:38 happening in between. As a matter of fact, I don't even like the stuff in between: all the stopping at the checkpoints and at the airport, and getting my passport checked out, or staying six hours on a flight. I just want to get to my destination because that's where the adventure is,” but the 3rd house is much more what's actually happening. So the 3rd actually may be far more concerned with travel than the 9th in some aspects. CB: Okay. Let's see, going back to Valens’ significations on that second page, he says: “[The] home, boats, [and] wanderings.” IA: Wanderings. CB: So it's right there in the 2nd century. It's ‘travel’, but also I thought ‘boats’ was interesting. Because a boat is a vessel for travel, but also it's something you get
1:06:26 inside of in order to travel to a different place. IA: Exactly. And a boat is something that travels across water, and the Moon rules the waters. CB: Yeah, good point. And then that was another good point where the 3rd house often– because the Moon moves faster, tends to be in later traditions of astrology more associated with short distance travel versus the Sun which has its joy in the 9th house. The 9th house tends to be associated with long-distance travel, and the Sun takes longer to move across the signs of the zodiac and is slower. I also think that the [3rd] might sometimes be associated more with local travel or short distance travel because it's the house that's right next to the 4th house, which is the house traditionally associated with your home and living situation. So the [3rd] house
1:07:15 being right next door to that or being the house that declines or moves away from the 4th house, therefore is just like moving around in your neighborhood or moving around locally in some sense. And by extension, it also sometimes then signifies your neighbors; the 3rd house can signify your neighbors or sometimes other miscellaneous relatives get sort of thrown in the 3rd house. IA: Yeah, cousins and next of kin and stuff sometimes can be there in the 3rd. CB: Right. IA: But yeah, the 3rd house can bring up the immediate surroundings, hence, the neighbors. What's going on in that immediate environment and your immediate surroundings, your local area,
1:08:05 as opposed to maybe something foreign, which tends to be more 9th house? CB: Yeah, that makes sense. All right, so there's the joys of the planets--again, Moon in the 3rd house, in the ‘place of goddess’. We've touched on how the Moon is the ‘mother’. In some text, I think Valens or somebody says that the Sun signifies the ‘father’ or ‘the person who acts as a father figure to the native’. And I think that's an important distinction that might be worth mentioning because that's also true of the Moon, where the Moon signifies the ‘mother’; but also, it can sometimes not necessarily just be the biological mother only, but the one who acts like a mother to the native in some sense. IA: Yeah, yeah. Because when we speak about
1:08:52 ‘mother’, we have mothers on so many different levels. We have our biological mother. We have Mother Earth; so our connection with the Earth, our connection with food, because our food comes from the Earth. We have the ‘mother state’ or the ‘nanny state’ sometimes it's referred to as. So the government on many levels, although it may seem like it's patriarchal, there's a ‘mothering’ quality or archetype that is operating within that. If you're homeless or you don't have a job, certain governments will try to put maybe
1:09:38 certain structures in place that will ‘nurture’ you: give you some money to buy some food and have shelter and buy yourself some clothes. Again, the physiological well-being, it's protected by that. So we have different levels or different areas of ‘mother’. Again, for some people, depending on the circumstances, there may be situations or issues around one's biological mother. But again, they could be a surrogate mother; that's a mother who's looking after you; the nanny who's looking after you.
1:10:23 And again, when we look at the placement of the Moon in the chart, the sign, the house, the aspects will allow us to understand, will shed light on the kind of conditions that we are going to be predisposed to based on the placement of our Moon, what kind of mother did we have. Aspects to the Moon will indicate perhaps what kind of circumstances there were. Were they for the good or for the ill? Were there challenging circumstances? Were they easy circumstances? Again, it's all there in the natal chart. So the chart shows us, it tells us the story about our relationship to mother, our connection with mother, what kind of nurturing
1:11:12 did we get from mother. Yeah, it's all there. CB: All right, so I wanted to transition into the next section. We've talked about Vettius Valens who lived in the 2nd century, but I want to jump forward several centuries to the 17th century and look at some significations of the Moon according to one of the last great traditional authors, which is William Lilly and his book Christian Astrology, which was written I believe in London, in 1647 or so. IA: Yeah, that's correct. CB: So I've got a picture of it. I wrote down the significations that I'll read, but I wanted to show this little picture of an original copy of Lilly where he talks about the Moon and her properties and significations.
1:12:04 And he gives a bunch of different stuff in his introductory text, in the first, full text on astrology written in English. I heard a rumor that there was a copy of Lilly that's passed down from presidents of the lodge. Is that still the case? IA: I haven't got my copy yet. CB: Okay, we'll have to look into that then.
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