0:04 Foreign Minister Assad al-Shaibani paid a visit to the Libyan city of Benghazi. During which he met with Army Commander Saddam Khalifa Haftar. Accompanied by a delegation including the head of the General Intelligence Directorate, al-Shaibani discussed ways to strengthen cooperation on files of mutual interest. And the opening of a Syrian consulate in Benghazi. In addition to a number of joint security files between the two sides. He also followed up on the situation of Syrian citizens missing in Libya. According to a statement by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Regarding this matter. I welcome Dr. Ahmed al-Hawas, a political writer joining us live from Damascus, welcome to you. And I welcome Dr.
0:51 Jibril al-Obeidi, a writer and academic joining us live from Benghazi, welcome to both of you. I will start with you, Dr. Ahmed. After Tripoli and the opening of the Syrian embassy there, Minister Assad al-Shaibani headed to Benghazi. What is being discussed now through this visit? What is Damascus seeking through this visit? >> Greetings to you and your esteemed guest. We know that on August 30th, Syrian Foreign Minister Assad al-Shaibani was in Tripoli and reopened the Syrian embassy after it had been closed for about 14 years. Today, when we see al-Shaibani in Benghazi. There is also the Syrian consulate in
1:37 Benghazi. It could return to operation. There is a set of files. Meaning, the Syrian News Agency spoke about them and what. Leaked from it is the bilateral cooperation between the two countries. And the opening of the consulate in Benghazi. In addition to the file of missing Syrians in Libya, I mean. As you know, there was a large number of Syrians in Libya since the time of the Gaddafi regime. Syrians used to go to Libya for several reasons, including. I mean, the nature of the Libyan people. And there are no complications regarding visas or residency. And Syrians were. Treated like Libyan citizens for long periods. And this is what led to the presence of a large number of Syrians in Libya. We know the conflict that took place between the
2:24 east and the west in Libya. And now there is a Government of National Unity . And there is a kind of understanding taking place between the east in Benghazi and the west in Tripoli. Syria does not want to be, for example, between two parties, but rather. It deals with the Libyan state as one state, and Libya is a large country that possesses the longest coastline on the Mediterranean, owns oil and great potential, in addition to the fact that there have been joint Syrian-Libyan companies and institutions for a long time, and perhaps the revolution in both countries has halted the dealings between them. As you know, there were companies in transport, companies in agriculture, and many companies that were under the name of the Libyan-Syrian Company.
3:10 >> Yes, well, Dr. Jibril, how do you read this visit by the Syrian Foreign Minister to Benghazi at this stage, specifically at this time, and what does this visit gain through the files that have been addressed? Good evening to you, your guest, and the viewers. I believe the visit is important and at a very appropriate time to correct the concepts that have been subjected to distortion or the demonization of some parties. Therefore, we now consider this visit from the political side to be at a very important time, within a series of measures and understandings taking place in the region. Al-Shaibani is in Benghazi; therefore, al-Shaibani
3:56 is among his people and in his second country. Al-Shaibani is not in Tel Aviv . Al-Shaibani is in Benghazi. Therefore , it is an Arab country that has deep and long-term relations with Syria. The consulate being reopened today in Benghazi has existed and operated for decades. As you know, the largest expatriate community in Benghazi is the Syrian community. Consequently, Syria has maintained a popular and political presence in Libya, regardless of political regimes. Therefore, Libyan-Syrian relations are deeply rooted in history. They are not the product of a regime, but rather the product of the meeting of peoples. Thus , in my opinion, Al-Shibani's arrival in Benghazi is an organizational step.
4:42 It is an organization of historically rooted relations, which will facilitate much, especially regarding files considered stagnant or disrupted, such as the security file and other economic files. So, I believe Al-Shibani's arrival in Benghazi will loosen many knots. Especially now, the new Syria does not want......to be part of international polarizations. We are facing a new Syrian landscape that I see as promising. I believe the Syrian Foreign Ministry does not want to be a party to political polarization in any country, especially Libya; it wants to be with all parties at one table. Therefore, Al-Shibani's arrival in
5:29 Tripoli, and then in Benghazi, is a clear message. That the new Syrian Republic wants to be with Libya, not with polarization. I believe it is a clear message to everyone trying to disrupt such visits. He met with the Deputy Commander of the Army, Lieutenant General Saddam. A positive step. He will meet with some important officials in the government in Benghazi . So, I think these measures will lead us toward more rapprochement and understanding. Listening, as they say, is half the solution. And Al-Shibani is now in Benghazi listening to the Libyan side. Therefore, this is half the solution. >> Nour. Ahmed, what is remarkable about this visit is also the participation of
6:14 the head of the Syrian General Intelligence Directorate. What does this indicate, and what are the files that were addressed through what has been published about meetings and joint security files between the two sides? >> In truth, there is a set of messages, whether in Lieutenant General Saddam Haftar receiving the Syrian Foreign Minister, meaning that relations are very normal; he stated that he supports Syria's stability and appreciates the efforts Syria is making in its surroundings, not just internally. But when we find that the head of Syrian intelligence is accompanying the Foreign Minister on this visit...... then there is a set of security files
7:01 that can be reviewed between the two teams and parties. Meaning, there is, as you know, talk about missing Syrians . There is talk perhaps about Syrians who participated or were involved in the Libyan-Libyan conflict. Meaning. There are perhaps many files, in addition to the fact that Syria is fighting the Islamic State, and Libya in this region has also exerted great efforts to eradicate the Islamic State, so we are talking about joint files between the two countries, and that is why we saw the Syrian intelligence chief visit Benghazi with the Foreign Minister. I think the security file is very important. And I believe that establishing normal relations with
7:48 Libya as a whole......is, as we said from the beginning, a message that Syrian-Libyan relations are normal. Why specifically Benghazi, Dr. Ahmed? >> Why was this specific region in Benghazi addressed, and why was it not handled or addressed perhaps through the Government of National Unity in Tripoli? >> No, during the August 30th visit to Tripoli, a number of major files were discussed between the two countries, resulting in the opening of the Syrian embassy in Tripoli. But also, when we talk about Benghazi...Benghazi is considered the second city in Libya. I mean, historically, Libya is divided
8:35 into three regions. We are talking about Cyrenaica, Fezzan, and Tripolitania. These three regions were unified at the Gharyan Conference. In 1920. Therefore, one cannot talk about Benghazi as just another city; it is a major city and the capital of the Libyan East. It witnessed significant events that could have caused the Libyan state to collapse or be rebuilt. Consequently, there are undoubtedly major files existing between Syria and Libya where the password might be in Benghazi. >> Well, how is this viewed in Benghazi, Dr. Jibril? Through these files that were touched upon, which will be the subject of discussion between Damascus and Benghazi—the joint security files
9:22 between the two countries? >> Yes, let me add that, to be more politically realistic, Benghazi now represents the leadership of the Libyan Army or the return of the Libyan Army to operation. This is a fact no one can deny. Therefore, the striking security force is currently in Benghazi, regardless of the political dispute in Tripoli. As you know, Tripoli's security situation is fragile; there are many armed battalions, and the security situation is unstable in Tripoli. This is a fact I am not inventing, but everyone is aware of it. Therefore, the security file...So, all regional countries, neighboring countries, or those with security ties,
10:09 always discuss the security file with Benghazi. Because the army leadership is in... >> Benghazi. Therefore, it is politically rational to discuss such critical files with those who hold the decision-making power. Secondly, the Libyan Army now controls more than 70%of Libyan territory. Therefore, it is natural, logical, and rational. To discuss these files with the party truly concerned with them. And not the party...I don’t want to describe it as an illusion, but the party that does not have the full capacity to discuss or decide on them. This is on one hand; on the other hand...The one that opposed the ISIS organization, or what is called the Islamic State, was the army
10:55 leadership in Benghazi. And therefore ...This world of involvement, of involvement. >> Alright, alright, while the audio is being prepared—I cannot hear you well , Dr. Jibril. I return to you, Dr. Ahmed, to talk about the missing persons file, which was pointed out during this specific visit. How do we read the opening of this file in Benghazi? And how can we reach real, clear commitments from the Libyan side? Is it really possible to find the keys to this file? There is no doubt that this file is a humanitarian file. And a file of tragedy. One of the tragedies
11:43 of the Syrians, which perhaps the Syrian state has not disclosed in large numbers, is that one can refer to many reports indicating that a large number of Syrians were lost during the Syrian revolution and the conflict between the East and the West. Consequently, there was also an accusation leveled at Syrians that they came to fight under the Libyan government. Unfortunately, there are many things one can talk about regarding what the Syrians were subjected to. Today, there is a new chapter in Libyan-Syrian relations and a new chapter in the Libyan internal situation. Let us be more frank: it is
12:29 true that there is significant military weight in Benghazi, but there is also political weight in Tripoli. So, when Syria reached out to the Libyan government, it achieved a set of political and economic understandings with it. Now there are also understandings regarding the security file. The security file can be divided into two parts. A part concerning the missing Syrians. This falls upon the shoulders of...The Libyan state, as well as the Libyan army and security forces, to disclose the status of these individuals: where were they lost, and were they killed? All these matters must be clear. And the file, meaning the second part of the security file,
13:14 as you know...Many leaders of the Islamic State (ISIS) were from North Africa, specifically from Libya. I think the Syrian state has important files in this field, and there could be fruitful cooperation between the Syrian state and Libya. >> To what extent, Dr. Ahmed, in your view , could these security files serve as a gateway to potentially reshape relations between the two sides, especially since you say a new chapter is opening between the two countries? >> Yes, when I told you, we saw the Foreign Minister go to Tripoli, and now he is going to Benghazi to open the Syrian consulate and meet with the Deputy Commander of the Libyan Army.
14:02 All of this and the files they discussed make it clear that Syria is moving with a "zero problems" logic. This is the habit of the current Syrian leadership, as it does not want problems with its Arab environment; it wants good relations and is also looking for economic support. When we talk about Libya, Libya is a wealthy country with a Syrian community and the potential to reactivate joint institutions and companies, as I mentioned to you. Consequently, it is in the interest of both Syrians and Libyans to have normal relations, even in Libya. I visited it a quarter of a century ago, and the majority of the Libyan people have respect and affection for the Syrian people. They
14:50 also love Syrian industries, clothing, and textiles; they used to shop extensively from Syria, and as you know , there were distinct relations between Syria and Libya. I think that currently , the Syrian administration is looking to reactivate this relationship and transition the Syrian-Libyan relationship into one that is normal and calm. And there are no problems. Because after the liberation, or shortly before the liberation, let me tell you that the regions of eastern Libya were closer to the former regime. Than to supporting the opposition. Unlike Tripoli, which, from the beginning, supported the Syrian revolution and stood with it. But the intra-Libyan conflict also negatively affected the Syrian revolution in general.
15:36 >> Well, on this point regarding the conflict between the East and the West in Libya. To what extent can Damascus truly maintain a balance between the two parties? To what extent is Damascus actually capable of achieving a real and effective balance on the ground? Through the files that were raised and the joint cooperation between the two sides. >> I mean, Syrian-Libyan cooperation. I told you, it will be on the file of the Islamic State organization and the missing Syrians. And for there to be. Normal relations and trade relations between the two countries. As for the subject of Libya in general, in terms of its geopolitical location, the conflict there affects its surroundings , and especially affects the European
16:22 Union, as it is one of the outlets that could be used for migration due to its proximity to Italy and the European Union in general, in addition to the massive oil reserves it possesses. So, there is no interest in Libya being a lawless state. At a minimum, a stable state. And there are international understandings, as you know. That there should be an understanding between the East and the West. I mean, between Benghazi and Tripoli. Away from the conflict that could erupt once again. Libya also needs, I mean, time as well. To regain its strength. And to return as an important and influential state in the region and its surroundings. Yes . >> Alright, I return to you, Dr. Jabr. We
17:09 talked about the files that were touched upon, and among the discussions that were also touched upon is the missing persons file. What can Benghazi offer at this specific stage regarding this file? >> In the beginning, let me just. Because the connection was cut off and I did not hear the whole interview. Consequently, there might have been a dialogue I did not hear. To it, so that I would be obligated to respond to it. But in the end, I listened to your guest. With all due respect to his point of view, he stated incorrect information. When he said that support for the Syrian revolution was in Tripoli. And was not in Benghazi. And that Benghazi was with the Syrian regime. This is not true. This is absolutely not true. One can review what was happening in Benghazi in 2011;
17:55 the flags of the Syrian revolution were present in Benghazi from the very first days, so this is a historical correction of the information. Benghazi did not support any of the regimes that are hostile to Syria. Regardless of the political situation in Libya, so. Support for the Syrian revolution was present in Benghazi. Before it was present in Tripoli. This is for correction. And one can refer to the television archives. And it bears much witness to that. So, in my opinion, this is a correction of false information. Secondly, yes. For false information that must be corrected. The fact that later, later. T. Alright. Let us listen to Dr. Ahmed. Or let us listen to you. Go ahead, Doctor. I, I did not...this. One moment, Doctor. I
18:40 will return to you. >> No, if you would allow me. If you please. Benghazi stood. Benghazi is what sparked it, Mr. Jibril. Benghazi is what sparked the February 17 revolution. And it is the one that stood with the Syrians. And it is the one that raised the Syrians 'flags. I am talking about a stage in the Libyan-Libyan conflict. This is what I talked about. I did not. Talk about Benghazi, the city we revere and appreciate, nor about eastern Libya. I am talking about how it was viewed at a certain stage, for example, that Haftar’s leadership was closer to the Syrian regime. While Tripoli’s leadership was closer to the Syrian revolution. And this harmed the Syrian revolution. That is what I said. >> No, no, let me let me correct the
19:26 concepts, let me correct the concepts. If we want to judge a certain phase, we must judge it within its timing, its era, and the circumstances surrounding it. In this way, if you want to talk about this point in particular, regarding at one stage getting closer to a certain regime or authority. >> Yes. Let us unpack the moment of response to this point. The regime at that time, when the conflict and the war on terror occurred, I mean, I don't know if my voice is clear or if it has disappeared. >> I hear you, I hear you well. >> Yes, at that stage, Syrian groups
20:12 fought the Libyan army, and consequently, there was a reaction from the Libyan army against these groups. If we want to touch upon this point, I do not want to discuss it; at moments when one party approaches another, we must move away from disputes. >> Um. >> Do you hear me? >> Yes, I hear. Yes, I hear. Alright Dr. Jibril, to save more time with you and my guest, let's talk about the files that were discussed. Regarding this file, the missing persons file, I had asked you: to what extent is there actually a possibility? And what can Benghazi offer in this file? >> Yes, Madam, but let me respond; do not suppress my opinion. Let me clarify to your esteemed guest that judging a phase without its surrounding
20:57 circumstances—this is a point—that phase must be judged within its surrounding circumstances. This is my point of view on this. Returning to the point of the missing persons, are you listening to me? >> Alright Dr. Jibril, let's talk about the more important files now. We are talking about this visit; to what extent will this visit really have a positive impact on the files discussed? What are the files that will also be expanded upon later through this visit, Dr. Jibril? >> Many files, led by the security file, and led by the presence of some Syrians in Tripoli under an armed guise. Therefore, this file must be dismantled ; I mean, who do these people belong to ? Do they belong to the ruling authority in Syria or do they belong to
21:42 another party, and they are still there under the so-called—in quotation marks— "training forces" or "special training forces"? This is among the files, in addition to the missing persons file. Missing persons from both sides, Madam. And not just from the Syrian side. There are Libyans missing in Syria. There are. Syrians missing in Libya, so therefore. Missing persons from both sides. A situation that happened. Such files are handled through. And are these people who went missing Syrian workers? Who were present to work in Libya? Or are they armed groups belonging to Daesh, for example? So. We, this, these files will be resolved through security understandings. The presence of the Syrian intelligence chief and the presence of the Libyan intelligence chief, and reaching an understanding at
22:29 one table, can decipher the code regarding these missing people. I mean, who are they? And how did they go missing? I mean, it's not just that there are missing persons. >> Therefore, in light of this meeting of the heads of the intelligence services, both Syrian and Libyan, in light of that, could we see intelligence cooperation in the coming phase between the two sides? >> I believe, I truly believe that Al-Shaibani's presence in Benghazi is a very important step; listening, as I told you at the beginning, is half the solution. Listening is half the solution. Al-Shaibani's presence in Benghazi, the direct meeting. Direct dialogue is the right path. Away from. Distraction, away from demonizing the parties. Al-Shaibani, the Libyan army leadership, the head of Libyan
23:14 intelligence, the army command, and the government in Benghazi can cooperate directly through direct meetings. As for meetings through intermediaries, often the interpretation always distorts the text. Translation distorts the text. Therefore. A direct meeting is the shortest path to understanding. Al-Shaibani's presence in Benghazi is a positive step, in my opinion, to resolve many issues and achieve great and significant rapprochement. Especially since there is no historical animosity or blood feuds, so the Syrian-Libyan relationship was one of the most successful, regardless of the governments. I am not talking about political government; I am talking about the relations between the two peoples. Therefore, I believe these files will be resolved if both parties sit down properly. As is happening
24:01 today with the meeting in Benghazi. Tomorrow the meeting will be in Damascus, and so on. >> In light of the Libyan division, Dr. Ahmed, how can balance be maintained in the path of relations and the issues raised? >> Well, first, we are talking about Al-Shaibani's visit to Libya. There is no doubt that he visited the internationally recognized legitimate government in Tripoli, and now when he heads to Benghazi, he is still within the Libyan state, meaning he has not gone to another country. And there is no obstacle, for example, for Syria to open a consulate in Benghazi, in understanding with the central government in Tripoli, but this also...
24:48 I mean, this visit may have opened many files, including the meeting with Saddam Haftar, the meeting of the head of Syrian intelligence with the head of Libyan intelligence or the military command based in Benghazi. This means that Syrian-Libyan relations now have files that will be opened and discussed by both sides, and that Syrian-Libyan relations are moving towards returning to normal. These good relations will undoubtedly serve the interests of the two brotherly peoples. We are not dealing here with East and West or Benghazi and Tripoli, but we are dealing with Libya as one state. >> But to what extent can Damascus succeed
25:35 in achieving balance between the two parties, whether Tripoli or even Benghazi? >> This is not Damascus's task at all, I mean. To create a state of balance between, for example, Benghazi and Tripoli. I told you, states deal as states. So now, the Syrian state deals with the Libyan state. But it is also in Syria's interest to have a consulate in Benghazi. Libya is a vast country. Very vast. And there is a huge number in the eastern Libyan region. We are talking about Al-Bayda, Derna, Benghazi , and Tobruk. All these big cities that have. Many Syrians who have not been there for just a few years. They have been there for perhaps more than 30 or
26:21 40 years. Syrians have been arriving. to Libya, where they hold various interests. There are Syrian families who have become closer to the Libyans in terms of intermarriage, living, and all these matters. It is the duty of the Syrian state to follow up on the interests of its citizens everywhere and to monitor their conditions as well , as they need to obtain official documents and passports. All of this is what they need. If we talk about travel between Tripoli and Benghazi. This means a long journey. It requires 1,500 km. So how is a citizen supposed to travel under these known conditions in Libya? What would ease the burden on the Syrian citizen is the opening of a Syrian consulate in Benghazi.
27:08 >> Thank you very much, Dr. Ahmed Al-Hawas , political writer, for joining us from Damascus. Thank you very much. Thanks also to Dr. Jibril Al-Obeidi, writer and academic, who was with us from Benghazi. Thank you both very much. After the break, we will discuss who is responsible for poor-quality gasoline reaching the markets.
