Sesssion - "Why the Indo-Pacific Matters" at Pandit Hriday Nath Kunzru Memorial Lectures 2025

0:00 with our second in-house technical session titled why indopacific uh matters the session is chaired by professor shanari sundaran she is currently the chairperson and professor at the center for indopacific studies School of International Studies um she was awarded the Asia fellows award uh funded by Ford foundation and was based as a visiting fellow at the center for strategic and International Studies uh she was also a visiting fellow at the Asia Pacific College of diplomacy at the Australian National University her areas of specialization are um southeast Asia and Southwest Pacific region um our areas of Interest include indopacific security and strategic Affairs thank you very much Nita um a

0:47 very warm welcome to all of you for this second technical session uh good morning to our Dean thank you very much to both prti aprajita and their team for organizing the kunu memorial lecture and in keeping with u the theme with which we started yesterday on why international relations matter today we are moving into yesterday we the first technical session rightfully was on the theoretical aspects of it in the afternoon and today the second session onwards you'll see that many of us are moving into what is the area study specializations so we've had a very robust uh beginning yesterday with both the inaugural as well as the first technical session and in this session we're looking at why the Indo Pacific matters and in this context um the

1:33 presentation this year as as compared to last year last year we spoke on India and the indopacific in terms of how India's strategy towards the indopacific was evolved so in keeping with that context what we've decided as the center decided this year was that we would have a discussion on the relevance of the Pacific Islands in the Indo Pacific and the speaker this morning is Dr Shuba Mitra Das my colleague who's been with us for several years now at um cips she is an associate professor at the center for indopacific studies um and she's also specialized on Australia and New Zealand in the Pacific island countries and uh focuses on issues of development governance politics security as well as on gender and ecological factors so in

2:21 that context I want to invite shamra to make her presentation we're at about 11:02 um I'd request her to make a presentation for about uh 30 to 35 minutes after which we'll open the uh floor for discussions shamra the floor is yours thank you I will go there

3:29 B REM this no no this one I'm okay oops take it take it okay shall I yes pleas okay hello everyone and a very good

4:16 morning uh the topic for the day Indo does indopacific matters you know I would say that first because of its ubiquitious nature it's like indopacific is in the air am I audible now two mics are you able to hear me in the end it works actually you have to go closer to this come closer are you able to hear me now yeah louder okay so the topic for the day is why indopacific matters first I would say because of its ubiquity you know it's like love is in

5:03 the air indopacific is in the air you know it's present everywhere everybody wants to talk about it everybody wants to be a part of it and I mean it's so important it's most happening nowadays but I'm not going to talk about indopacific per se as a how it evolved and all that but I'm going to look into the Pacific side of the indopacific what I'll be talking about is as the presentation shows there the geopolitical relevance of Pacific Islands in the indopacific and when we talk about this first I would like to show you for the map please can you AA okay when you see this map you know what you see is the Pacific Island region why

5:51 it is so important is because it is a Transit point of the global trade routes and also the microcosm of balance of power among the Pacific Rim countries now we'll have to know what this Pacific who this Pacific Rim countries are when you look at the map here you see Australia New Zealand parts of Southeast Asia China Russia America even South America like Peru Chile these are the countries which are actually uh ruling the roost I mean these are the countries which is um setting the pace for every kind of ation in this region so the Pacific Rim countries have actually how they study the region is either

6:37 as me small island states are studied as pawns or as victims to Big powers and some of the studies portray them as actors rather than objects that is mostly the Pacific Islanders who write but often these islands are discarded as small remote and isolated and so the central question should be does size matter you know and it of course depends upon the magnitude of the threat P perceived the resources the region has and the strategies thus woven but on the contrary if you see are we actually defining this word small correctly since the island countries

7:22 with large Eed the island countries with large ezed that is exclusive econom IC zones which make them large Oceanic countries these countries actually drive home the fact that a country size is not landmass but also its Waters and that is exactly the essence of an oceanic identity the maritime identity these islands are advocating all along and the word oenia is that expression of the oceanic identity it is more of an emotional expression than a geographical expression so the Pacific and when you see the Pacific Ocean it is 1/3 of the Earth's surface

8:09 and half of the ocean area where nearly 25,000 islands are there and these Pacific Islands are aligned to the Rim countries by politics by history and by culture and the seab bone trade made these Islanders relevant in the global political platform and with diverse economic interest which started in U by the colonial uh countries and now the Rim countries which has given this region a new strategic significance earlier through Plantation Mining and involvement of multinationals exploitation of Natural Resources like Timber and Fisheries and of course after just after the second

8:55 world war it was nuclear testing and now it is building of military basis and Aid distribution so the and when you see this region the impact of the Cold War on the Pacific Islands was quite different from the impact of the present we can call it a new cold war or a new great game or whatever it is the US China rivalry and it is going to stay for another decade or maybe more and during uh uh during this cold war these islands were slowly decolonizing and the patterns of development assistance was being chocked out and uh to keep these islands within their side it's a very strategic move that eased

9:41 the process of Fortress the region from other powers especially from Earth while USSR and now it is from China even Russia North Korea you can just name them and but now this present time uh dealing with China is different because China is already deeply involved in this region and is determined to integrate Taiwan while us is resisting so that China doesn't go overboard let's wait and watch about that and The New Normal in this region is not only the Pacific Islanders domestic concerns of climate change and regionalism but China's assertive ascendance which has made the small Islands wey of its actual intentions and let's see the interplay

10:28 of how geography Y and politics which has become quintessential in understanding how islands play a role in the games of power and influence and geography this has become the core component and it has always been the core component in every country's foreign policy making just because of the fact that it is a permanent factor and when we speak of geography we are not only talking about space location or distance but also the resources are taken into consideration so we need to understand that the spatial dimension of power that shapes the reality and the perception and which takes a slow turn towards a process a process where the creation and shaping of ideologies

11:13 happen and therefore geopolitics is studied from two major angles and first that is through maps that is the cartographical interpretation of zones of interest and zones of influence and second of course is the power equations of the region and these maps are again prepared with the idea of a Battleground you know where contentions contestations and hostilities are clearly demarcated these Maps also help in creating a narrative leading to planning strategies for different modes of cooperation and again contestations and it further creates a strategic culture where understanding geopolitical goals and issues becomes imperative

11:59 and it is quite interesting when you see this region that the Strategic culture that is created in this specific region is mostly by The Rim countries the Pacific Rim countries rather than the resident Pacific Islanders and here comes a major question that does the Strategic culture of the Pacific island Islanders synchronize with the Strategic culture of the Pacific Rim countries and we'll go through that process in this paper now during this uh Cold War us tried to Fortress the region against communism and used the region with many of its basis it's too light there it's not very visible if you see this

12:50 region will I see be able to see my [Laughter] paper what no I don't want to see I want them to see it's okay yeah it's visible all right you can see the US bases over there and just after the Cold War uh us reduced its Naval presence but again with us pivot to the Asia Pacific it started making serious changes again and increased its Naval presence nearly 60% of what uh was already there and militarization of the region started with forward deployments of us navies along with the Navies of us I mean sorry along with the Navies of its allies so us reinstalled its bases all across the

13:35 Pacific Ocean from Guam to American Samoa if you see this map clearly the on the left hand side you see Guam and down it is American Samoa and up on the right hand side it is the Hawaii and this is the region Micron naian region which is completely under the Pacific uh under the US in two different uh Arrangements they have made and one is the unincorporated States and another is the Kofa states that is compact of free association that is palao Federated States of Micronesia and Marshall Islands you know uh these are Under the department of interior and office of

14:21 insular States and here us has complete Sovereign rights over these islands but the people of these places are not US citizens that means they don't have permanent residents there neither do they have the political rights and they are called as us Nationals and moreover these Kofa countries are come within the second island chain of China and so us wants to use this right to exercise strategic denial from Hawaii from Hawaii till Solomon American Samoa and Guam right and free association is also done by other countries like New Zealand

15:07 which has toao you can see the map very I mean it's very Hotpot but there you'll see a lot of countries which are under uh TOA new way and Cook Islands these are with freely associated with New Zealand and France it has declared the territories of new cedonia French poesia Wallace and funa as French overseas territories that means that France is a resident power in the Pacific UK also has in the last nich if you see pit Karen Islands it is the overseas territory of U UK but the UK has not been very involved with the region until 2018 when it re-entered and opened embassies in Tonga vanatu and

15:55 Samoa and of course after this Aus deal UK is here to stay and it has also made another tripartite um in this region with Japan and Italy to build fighter jets that will be launched in 2030 in the region and of course if everything goes well it will be uh there by 2040 and the next map if you see you can see that these islands are looking like dots in the map and the former president ruselt once said you know these islands may seem like dots in the map but has great strategic value for each country that passes through them or are nearer to them and many scholars of the in this Rim countries

16:43 they keep saying Island countries are too small to remain meaningfully independent and use their agency in relation to the larger Powers but that doesn't mean that uh small countries have to be colonized you know as the old edj goes the big decide and the small accept that shouldn't happen that way and this region has become more of um of a alarm alarming situation for America is because Russia is also increasing its presence and influence in the region and is incre and in by 2016 Russia donated 20 containers of weapons and military hardware to Fiji and based 100 Personnel at West Papua and then uh flew the nuclear

17:28 capable bombers all across the South Pacific and by 2018 it has uh brought the training warships to Papa New Guinea to train their army now China's presence is more alarming since uh China has its this first second and third island chains which is uh engulfing the whole Pacific region and has considerably changed the geopolitical landscape of the Pacific and the direct impact of China's military aggression can be seen in the Micron naan region and uh where US territories are there and its economic influence through Aid trade and investment can be seen in

18:14 the melan region where nearly 80% of the Pacific Islanders live so China entered the ports of small islands with dual use military civilian vessels and their port calls increased in this region on a regular basis from and by 2023 China was able to sign a security agreement with Solomon Islands and it changed the whole equation of the region due to the secrecy that is involved with the agreement and whatever leaked excerpts have come it shows that Solomon Island is seeking assistance with police and armed forces and such other law enforcement agencies and recently just a week back there was another security agreement compreh defensive security agreement

19:00 signed by China with Cook Islands and Cook Islands are actually freely associated with um New Zealand how much rights it has to do such an agreement is not known yet and everybody is contemplating what is this um agreement all about it may be for deep sea mining or climate resilience infrastructure building but nobody knows what these um Agreements are apart from these security agreements uh China also has a tendency to arm twist the small Islands the so-called small islands like talu and palao because both of them are supporting Taiwan you know and China requested talu that they could build a

19:46 artificial Island for climate change relief mechanism talu disagreed but with uh China has been very aggressive it has been in assisting for quite a long time from the time palao became independent in 1994 from then on China was trying to weaponize tourism you know and uh why this is because in 20 uh 2000 2005 they had nearly 600 uh tourist in that place but now and 205 2020 they have got N9 91,000 tourists in and that money is very important for palao and palao is a

20:33 country which has only 18 to 20,000 people you know and weaponizing tourism and also another interesting thing is they're sending criminal gangs to palao and disrupting Maritime border security and so palao requested us to build a naval base on its grounds now China's persuasion we all know that it usually happens in the least developed countries countries and the the least developed countries in Pacific island is Solomon Islands kirat and talu but the highly dependent countries on China's Aid are Tonga Papua New guine and wwu you know and uh why this these islands are geopolitically so significant is because it works as

21:20 forward power projection for potential conflicts to project power and also to project Readiness in for war and uh these micro States has no military except for Papa new guine and Fiji and more or less it allows the presence of Us and other powers for example during the second world war us was able to take this whole region basing on Solomon Islands and island hopping and uh fighting against Japan but uh and this us made this whole region seem to be like a p uh Anglo Saxon Lake a maritime domain by America ever since the World War II and now and even after this cold war period but if

22:07 you see it more closely you know there is another way of narrating that is uh done by the Western power blocks in this region and that is building a consciousness of insecurity among the Pacific Islanders for continued assistance I'll give an example here by in 2008 when this us has brought out a National defense strategy that has used certain terminologies like underg governed misgoverned ungoverned contested areas and literally has put the whole Pacific Islands under this category and these islands were also called as Arc of instability by austral by Australian policy makers in order to Define their defense and foreign policies while their

22:53 aid dependence is further aggravated when the World Bank defined these islands a specific Paradox thus came the justification for a greater role of the Pacific Rim countries and the need to continue um you know providing assistance through Aid and Aid became a political tool to gain leverage and the Pacific Islanders also started playing the game and this led to corruption and which again was a major reason one of the major reasons for civil Strife in Solomon Islands during uh the early period of 20 thousands and the Diplomatic tool that another diplomatic tool that Pacific Islanders used is to keep oscillating between support to Taiwan or to China

23:40 due to Aid NAU Solomon Islands kirad they were all used to support Taiwan at a particular time and now they uh shifted to China especially NAU it actually shifted four times from uh Taiwan to China and back again and another important thing is uh um China's belt and Road initiative is signed by many of the island countries like Papua New guini Fiji Samoa Islands new Tonga and vanatu and nearly four 4 billion US Dollars was promised by Papa to Papa new guini to build a National Road a, 1600 kilometer Highway by China and with Tonga and vanatu nearly 50 to 60% of the

24:25 total foreign aid is owed to China but the countries in the region are not very uh worried about it because Australia is still the number one donor there and 17 billion is U shelled out by uh through the Pacific Aid map compared to the second largest donor that was China which has only $3.7 billion but now it has shifted to the seventh position in 2021 because Australia and its like-minded Partners started supporting the region and and the quad countries have taken a serious interest in the region and is working on all the four dimensions of Maritime security and that is National Security marine environment Economic Development and human security

25:12 and this is the reason that Pacific Islanders willingly agreed with these quad countries and are cooperating with them and the issues of concern that are chocked out by the quad countries is that capacity building for climate change management of fisheries and regular surveillance mechanisms building structure for Law and Order with the help of civil societies people to- people connections building infrastructure for climate resilience and stuff like that and they are able to know these quad countries were able to understand that the definition for security and stability for the Pacific Islanders is basically for survival Economic Development and of course economic growth uh sustainable development M

25:59 which has further was further emphasized in the bo declaration in 19 uh 2018 that talked about the idea of Blue Pacific it's a collective and an assertive uh Pacific diplomacy which actually uses the strategy for National Security that Tils towards the non-traditional security especially the human security and the issues which are more important for these countries is human security climate change water security violence against women urbanization unemployment and ocean management and Fisheries and decolonization so the Pacific voice of the Indo Pacific is not is too soft due to because most of them do not have either the political or the economic Cloud but through Oceanic regionalism

26:45 they are able to make their voice heard and their issues are being acknowledged both in the multilateral and the Le Regional forums and what Australia Us New Zealand Japan and also India India of late has started is they brought out certain uh initiatives for the Pacific you know and um I would say that uh us has brought out in 2020 the Pacific pledge but this I will keep on hold because Trump has also kept it on hold right and Australia's specific step up then New Zealand's specific reset Japan's specific plan that is specific leaders uh Island leaders meet and uh India's fiing in a forum for indopacific Island uh

27:31 cooperation and these are all parts of indopacific strategy for a free and open indopacific and within this indopacific strategy one of the most important countries here that actually got involved in this region is New Zealand because it has a deeper it has that history of being a moral Exemplar during the negotiations of negotiations of South Pacific nuclear weapon free zone treaty and of course New Zealand was labeled as a recalcitrant member of the anus with a kwi disease but then New Zealand has shown this poian identity to such an extent that the Pacific Islanders feel closer to New Zealand in uh taking up these programs and it is basically this reset

28:16 all these programs initiatives were basically to understand and react to Chinese political and economic presence in the region and also of course the regional geopolitical equations and three major reasons that uh I will be answering that geopolitical relevance of the Pacific Islands is because these countries are acting like good neighbors and preserve the islands autonomy and second of course pic's are fast becoming very important indopacific countries um within the indopacific uh geopolitical construct and so it has to be channeled properly and of course the stability of Pacific island countries is Cru crucial for the National Security of all the

29:01 Pacific Rim countries and through the Reset Program New Zealand was uh it's a major campaign it has taken up with Aid trade and diplomacy to counter the possibilities of China's dead trap diplomacy and Australia is also doing the same thing through its stepup program uh to uh brace these Island countries away from being trapped with the Chinese debts and it is also paid nearly 2 billion Australian dollars to Papa new guine to launch Pacific Maritime security program and it started uh training police uh uh police from vanatu suan islands and Fiji

29:48 and it has opened a naval joint Naval Base at uh Manus islands that is in Papua New guini and there is also a multi- dollar multi billion rural electrification project for Papua New Guinea and it is done by us Japan and New Zealand along with uh Australia of course and India's fific which started in 2014 it was it had nearly three Summit meetings right till now and in 2023 meeting it has become a multifaceted cooperation ranging from trade to cyber security to Medical Aid and infrastructure development and India started playing a much more serious role in the region because of its acst policy and Japan maintained a consistent

30:36 relation with Papa sorry Pacific island countries ever since 1985 you know and with the coronar doctrine and the five principles of respect mutual respect development assistance and Regional cooperation peop to people exchanges and all that and from 1997 it has created a m categorically uh trying to help de not only through development assistance but also uh to uh help them in policy in policym and this Japan's collaboration was with all the Pacific island Forum countries and U it has also uh talked about the Blue Pacific framework and by 2050 strategy implementation which is an

31:21 extension for the free and open Indo Pacific and I'll be concluding here by saying that what the Pacific how the Pacific Islanders have been looking at this region as you know for them Indo Pacific is from India till Fiji and the Strategic culture which was quite different for the Pacific Islanders it is um you know it is now newly framed by the Pacific island development Forum U activist kind of a regional organization there which talked about draft iic plan of 2017 2020 and that emphasized on First and most important for them is selfdetermination and second is the

32:08 green and blue Pacific for economic development sustainable and inclusive economic growth and while questioning seriously about mining even the seabed mining and carbon emissions fisheries and Forestry management and it's but understood you know given this fragile ecosystem climate change will be a primary cause for concern and though the Pacific Islanders of Guam they called chamora churas and they are fighting for self-determination for quite some time from the um I mean from the Cold War days but then this heightened uh us China rivalry has put it in the back seat and goam is the most important base

32:53 for us which is strategically pointed towards China and North Korea and the second cause of concern is the pacif Paris agreement which had put a limit on carbon emission from 2° to 1.5° but it is not followed by most of the industrialized countries and here I would say that India has a much better role to play in advocating on climate change with the Pacific island countries and collaborate on new methods of resilience since us the first thing Trump did was to get out of the pris agreement and China is also a number one emitter of greenhouse gases Australia still exports coal and still is the number one country that uses Cal fired

33:39 Fuel and Japan was many times alleged that uh it is dumping Radio Active Wass in the ocean us Japan and China are accused of illegal unreported and unregulated fishing in the coastal Waters of the Pacific and France of course with this new caledonia's fight for self-determination has created deep crevices with the Pacific Islanders and if you see on the other side there these issues can also become the negotiating factors to Balance power rivalries and to Define their identity and agency in the global geopolitical landscape and the political impulse of the stakeholders are the Pacific Rim countries in the region they are trying to prioritize geopolitics over climate

34:25 change and which the Pacific kland nations want to exactly point out and say that this narrative is not for us though we are playing by it thank [Applause] you thank you so much rra come back uh for that very comprehensive presentation where you have actually taken us through I mean if anyone has a doubt on why indopacific matters I think now we know why it really matters so one of the points that she actually made which I think is very relevant from the um nomenclature aspect is what she said about how the Pacific Islands actually look at the Indo Pacific very clearly she identified that it stretches for them from India all the way to Fiji you

35:12 know and this context which is the basic archipelagic region that lies in the Indian and the Pacific Oceans which is a completely Oceanic and Maritime dominated region clearly identifies the context of why the Indo Pacific matters you know in that context I think um she has defined this very well and I think there is a very important factor that she said uh right at the beginning because when you talk in terms of small countries you tend to look at it in terms of how territory how resources matter without the added uh context of the maritime itself and I think this is where the definition of the indopacific and why the maritime becomes important from our assessment in terms of of what

35:58 this area represents is very clearly dominated by this Oceanic extent and I think what she has drawn out very clearly is this context of um you know sort of synergizing both the territorial aspects and the maritime aspects together in understanding why this Region's geopolitics matters to such a large extent um with just those few remarks I'm going to actually open the because we have a very short session of 1 hour and I want as many questions as possible because that's where the debate and the discussion lies so I'm like I'd like to open up the floor to any other questions that are there from the participants who are here so please raise your hands identify yourself and uh ask your question or make your comments please one by

36:43 one uh yes um vit vant vikrant vikrant sorry vikrant apologies vikrant I'm still getting used to all your names h uh ma my question is indo Pacific has been becoming the theater of major geopolitical and geostrategic shift and in a a new Global center of gravity around this but now ma'am can we see it if India like a lot of Scholars are continues saying that India should go for multi-alignment instead of going for organizational or like multinational alignment in a Organization for example like a quad so many scholars are saying that in Indo Pacific India should prefer to go for multinational align multi-alignment with the countes

37:28 specific itself not for the organizational level so like for example we have a historical Legacy in the southeast Asia in Vietnam Cambodia or Indonesia so uh should shall we just go for this only or like we have to like the quad and all okay I'll take three questions together do three together because we may have more question is there anybody else yes uh there are two questions here we'll take Professor Varun sahani first and the and the student after who's sitting there Professor Sani mul I I came in a little late so sorry if I you've already sort of talked about this and I missed it but I was actually thinking about the the smaller islands and the fact that they have very

38:15 large sort of territorial waters you know in proportion to their both their the sort of the land size as well as really in in proportion to their populations um and iuu fishing uh in particular in those Waters uh you know largely by China but not just China Japan taian taian uh you know uh is is frankly it's it's it's it's now depleting those fish stocks and all to an enormous extent so really re you know I mean what is possible here because it's impossible for these countries why individually or collectively even to do anything about that right so uh I mean I really would be curious to hear your views on this matter CU in terms of

39:01 Maritime security I think it's a very important and under study this you thank you yes please myself Kelvin bny doctoral candidate in Center for vestation studies so first of all thank you madam for this amazing presentation and uh regarding my doubt actually when we consider the Wier Indo Pacific one of the important countries to mention I think so is Myanmar and it is our neighbor so my doubt is that uh for long both west and USA is engaging with various Rebel groups in Myanmar either through covert military missions or through NGS through Thailand border and all generally we had a good relation with the junda but recently I came to know that in the OR program we invited Rebel groups from kachin chin and arakan so do

39:48 you think there is a wider convergence between current national interest of India as well as America in case of Myanmar okay we can take these three questions first uh shra okay the first question vant about multi-alignment India has actually started doing this multi-alignment from quite some time qu there's a many laterals are there but multi alignment is a new way of making everybody come on board and that is the best uh policy I guess everybody should do now especially India why India in fact all the countries in the southeast

40:34 Asia and uh Pacific they're all this is a new trend multi-alignment right they're mixing with us as much as with um what is that uh China Australia has a very good policy about multi-alignment it says it uh I mean U has a both it has $97 billion trade with us compared to $231 trade with ch China you know and how does CH Australia behave in this multi- aligned mode is it needs both of them together and what is it doing it says okay I will uh mix with everybody I mean I'll agree when I can and disagree when we must and this is what

41:20 multi-alignment is good for right it's okay did I answer your question yeah um the next of Fisheries there's a very fish yeah of there is a a good organization forum for fisheries management in uh through the Pacific island Forum but uh this uh Fisheries is one of the most important aspects which requires more support from international support because most of the time we find these countries being not um being uh mostly troubled because of fishing and in their territorial waters are always being uh used for uh illegal fishing so

42:07 what these countries can do is they um especially the PF which is uh Pacific island for development Forum which now may not be very successful because Fiji has again joined back in Pacific island Forum but this organization has more um you know uh leverage because they have included philanthropist Civil Society business corporates and all those um the basically the whole of Civil Society to work on fisheries and fishery management it requires more um again aid from Australia Australia is very much involved into that and I think uh forum

42:53 for fisheries management is one of the most important uh or ganizations there which is consistently working on that but when it comes with China Japan and their illegal um entry into the region I mean so many things remains un unresolved and the next one is what what is the question question was on uh Myanmar okay India's means why India is mean Myanmar is important to India right why the borders are important for us you know it's just because of that and uh when um I'm not very much aware of this uh uh Myanmar thing but still I

43:39 would say that India has a very important um concern in Myanmar because it has also have taken some um what is that place ringas territory Rak rakine rakine state in that India also has equal Stakes as much as China has and so India has to have those good relation with u Myanmar and India's border that is the only Southeast Asian country with which India's border is there and if you see with the Northeast countries where India's major emphasis is you know with the lookist policy acist policy there U and these is Northeast countries are actually having such a border with them the trans not

44:26 countries sorry sorry sorry not the states these states have such a I mean um trans border relations transboundary identities it all is so important for the Northeast uh states to be uh in SEC with having proper security and so Myanmar is very important and um I'm just going to come in on one factor U just to highlight what Professor um vun Sani raised about the maritime Waters and the how the small states and the oceanic context is there actually vun before you came in she did make that context about the uh you know the size of their Maritime areas and I think where you we have to sort of understand because this is where

45:11 you pointed out one interesting Factor on iuu that is not just China and Taiwan but even countries that are supposedly normative players like Japan have a violation because the entire wailing industry that is there from the Japanese side impacts the region considerably in ter terms of iuu uh fishing so I think the and there the ezed becomes critical and this is something she mentioned right at the outset when she was making her presentation because the ezed is not determined only by the size of the territory the ezed as for unclos is concern is equal for most countries right now the point is the Chinese interventions and interference into the ezed causes the uncertainty and concern security concerns for these countries and it's not just for the in Pacific island States but all across southeast

45:58 Asia also because if you look at even the uh conflict between the Chinese and the Indonesians which is a very large state in Southeast Asia it's the E that is you know contested the Chinese are very clear that the uh natuna Island belongs to them but the Indonesian ezed extends from the natuna island onwards which falls into the South China Sea and the N Dash line as far as the Chinese claims are concerned yes please you wanted another question no it's it's just I mean you're absolutely right but the sheer geometry of it indicates that the smaller the land area the greater the territorial Waters in relation to the size of the land and the population on it a point if you have a you know 200 nautical mile radius is much more than a much larger

46:44 piece of land actually the relationship is dramatically different so I mean when it comes to iuu fishing I would have thought ultimately it's about coast guards I mean you know do it only in two ways either you you deal with it as the level of the marketing of these fishes which is impossible to do because there's a massive consumer uh you know base in very wealthy countries like Japan and and and China and Taiwan that's one solution impossible to do the other is actually enforcement at the time of fishing itself correct you know so I mean that's I'm just trying to ask how how I mean as a security issue you know how does one even begin to think about it seriously so that is the factor right so increasingly what you're seeing is what we for put into the context of

47:29 non-traditional security comes into the context of survival for these countries it becomes existential so that is exactly where the conundrum lies and uh this uh no no increased surveillance the quad countries are actually increasing the surveillance and sending the petrol boats you know to all these small island countries so that the regularity of surveillance increases so they are doing it but I'll go go back to the ongoing debate about names and nomenclature you said oia is an emotional response and now I wonder what you how would you deconstruct the word emotional because em I mean I try to read up as much as I

48:18 can about oenia and it seems that it's has its origins in 18th century uh obviously French explorer coin the term as we know it today but it's also uh often described as a liquid continent because it's the one which has the Pacific Islands Australia and New Zealand rather than a land continent but all more recently they're talking about how geologically combination of three plates the nazka plate the Pacific Plate and the Philippines plate so so there is a geological explanation uh geographical explanation um uh cultural explanation if you might so I was wondering what is

49:04 the emotional explanation that's nice sir um I would say because at the present times the way these Island countries are trying to project their Oceanic identity they have got very emotional about what Blue Pacific is all about it is and it has become a part of their diplomacy as well you know and they want to make this this Oceanic identity becomes so um I mean all encompassing that that it mean becomes not only a you know not just an identity but it becomes a concept which can further their U Ambitions in the region so that is emotional part when we

49:51 talk about identity you know very good any other questions please I have followup question to yeah okay uh one minute uh Dr Samina then somebody raise their hand over there yes okay Samina please go ahead yeah thank you I really enjoyed your presentation just taking C from that emotional identity so in your assessment is there a commensurate effort to translate that emotions into some sort of a regional strategy that is a major part of a Pacific uh diplomacy and also regionalism that is the actually the thing which is going on for their regionalism you know how regionalization can happen between these countries there are three kind of or uh Regional organizations in this

50:37 region one is the Pacific Community Pacific island forum and the recent one is the Pacific island development Forum this uh organization which is more of a you know um activist kind of an organization because Fiji was removed from PF during its schools and this uh thing what what is the major reason for regionalization it has to it has to have something more concrete than just uh countries in a geographic setup right and this is again it is a basically an emotional concept because all these countries do feel that ocean is the major identity and they are trying to constantly portray that in everywhere

51:22 they go in fact recently one U uh thing I was listening to from palao they were saying that why did uh Trump sign this Paris agree withdraw from Paris agreement when we all are so much involved with this um uh climate change and they also said that let's uh M Trump come to palow we will just show them how these small islands are actually surviving they'll have to see what ocean means what islands means and how they are submerging you know what that word I don't remember snorkling or something snorkling uh and that again whatever they say that is when the you listen to these Island leaders you know they are really emotional about it and they feel

52:09 that I don't understand why the other people are not understanding at all you know so that is a part of regionalism and it is emotional yes please uh good morning everyone my name is subash uh ma'am as we talk as we talk about when we talk about climate change uh it has more to do with uh how it impacts or shapes National or International Security than it has to do with the actual environment or climate in its biological aspect so uh the the impact of climate change on its human aspect which is very visible in the islands of this region what would you say uh how does these nations they

52:58 attempt to balance the in insecurity they face within with the security they crave for uh in the outside thank you I didn't really understand can you simplify it a little I didn't yeah I'm so sorry yes maam the impact of climate change how do these small island nations how do they balance them uh with the insecurity they face within with the outside uh security like the securitization aspect which lies outside you know climate the impact of climate on this island countries is an everyday thing in know every moment every time the tide comes in the water get gets into their

53:44 houses it's that kind of an impact and I U and this is a major security aspect for them because it's a basic survival existential crisis right and how do they manage it there are ways they don't have the money they mean they're going to other countries and staying me uh if you see uh example I'll give you of new way one of the islands very small island with 1500 people in their Island but 25,000 people are there in um um New Zealand you know and there is another question which comes up when uh they are actually trying to mend the uh me understand the impact of climate changes how are they going to retain their

54:32 culture when they are outside their country and what is that cultural aspect which they can retain and and when they talk about self-determination where do they go you know how do they understand self-determination in this context if they are mostly coming out of their islands and there is another way of artificial Islands I don't know how feasible that is and how costly it will be and if these countries can afford with the kind of Aid they are getting could you like speak more on how the impact of climate change even Within These island nations has not been not been even even you know the most of the islands if

55:18 you see in the micronation region that is the above if you see that the part those islands especially the Federated States of Micronesia you know FSM they have atols and atols the way and they are all low-lying lands for them the climate is a climate change I would say I wouldn't say climate change global warming has U me the has directly impacted them because those islands you know the tip of the island is seen and the rest is getting submerged and uh if you go to Fiji Papua New guini they have large land areas and those are at least uh just higher up you know they're above

56:03 the land I mean sea level but then they're also facing um this climate change impacts you wanted to raise a point Rahul and then prer yeah I'm winding up sorry very quickly please we have just 3 minutes before the next session this will be the last two really yeah just three minutes thank you sh very compact insightful presentation and I commend you for that uh based on what you've said and the way things are in the Pacific Island region it is very clear the super powers and Rising powers

56:48 are dling for power and influence uh which is very similar to what has been happening in Southeast Asian region for quite some time time past uh seven plus decades uh so that's one point of similarity the second is that just like pic Island countries not in quanitative terms but uh Southeast Asian countries are also vulnerable to super power pressures and influences and uh dominating tactics that's another point of similarity so if we put these together and compare southeast Asia or Asia will with Pacific Island region why is it that Pacific island has not countries of the Pacific island have not been able to uh have their normative

57:34 agency like Asad in setting at least some basic rules of the game uh basic rules of investment and part politics and how they navigate so why is it that they have not been able to do it and that's my first question second uh if you have time uh if you could store some light for the benefit of audience um uh the intra Pacific differences and what role that plays in inviting or engaging the superar the first one why there is no much emphasis of this regionalism strong regionalism that didn't happen is because it is not just the Pacific Islands you know there is the direct involvement of Australia and New Zealand

58:20 which and their mindset is quite different compared to the Pacific Islanders the Asian they don't call them Asians they call them Nations Micronesia malania and poia Nations and their ideology is more about their survival but for Australia again the ideologies are mostly Western and what is the second question is said inra intra Pacific disputes oh that is again you know um if you see the cultural Arrangement that is done of the Pacific Islands you'll see that the melanesian place which actually is the closest geopolitically to the mainland uh southeast Asia not Mainland um what do you call archipelagic Southeast Asia and

59:07 these countries have a different political agenda and for them this uh uh me it's not just survival but it is a decolonization which is very important and for micron Asia they are all under us so their emphasis on um you know uh mixing with others is not much but poia which is culturally very um proud and they don't want to really and they're not only culturally proud but they're culturally economically also very sound compared to the melanesians and there uh this organization they have you know within Melania that is uh what is that uh MSG melanesian spearhead group that one has

59:54 a very different political agenda compared to the Polynesian leaders U Summit and Micronesia also Micronesia is doesn't have that strong a regional grouping the way uh melanesians have melanesians are having a very typical um Asian uh politics compared to Polynesians polans don't care because they are too rich and whatever Aid they get you know that Aid is also U more um makes them have a better lifestyle compared to the Mel Nations M Nation actually like any Asian or African countries um I think we've completely run out of time and I think Professor Reay is here for his session so uh prer

1:00:39 your question we can take outside one on one all right um I'm just sorry any other questions I'm not taking anymore because you can take it outside after the session is over we're running into time for the next session so it's my honor and privilege to thank um shamitra for an excellent presentation and to all of you for um excellent questions and comments and I hope that U you've enjoyed this session thank you so much thank you [Applause]