0:00 Look, I'm a 90s kid from Northern California, so I have seen my fair share of hype bubbles. The Segway was supposed to revolutionize how everybody got around, but now it's [music] just for cops with a DUI. I remember Zoom, the iPod knockoff that called sharing files squirting. Steve Ballmer was out there begging people to let him squirt them pictures of his kids. [music] But if you took every shitty tech rollout before 2022 and then multiplied it to the power of 10 Quibbies, you wouldn't even come close to the level of hype that artificial intelligence has been getting [music] today. >> AI is one of the most profound things we are working on. It's more profound than fire or electricity. >> By 2026 or 2027, we will have AI systems that are broadly um better than almost all humans at almost all things. >> All of us are going to be managers of
0:46 infinite minds. >> We should be It should be a kind of era of maximum [music] human flourishing where we travel to the stars um and colonize the the galaxy. >> AI is transformative. [music] >> To what? I ask. >> AI will unleash human creativity. >> How? How will AI actually improve my life? Because all I see on my feed is a barrage of shitty Black Mirror knockoffs. >> Want Gwyneth Paltrow to read to you? Now you can. >> This is Character AI, where any story is yours to create. Why not build an app >> me endless app ideas. >> Replika can be your friend or your girlfriend. >> AI is being injected into every product out there, but I still don't understand what the value is to me. How will AI
1:33 binoculars improve my life? Or an AI grill? Or a pet door with facial recognition? Or this [ __ ] Apple Store Marie Antoinette? Look, I totally understand why AI is useful to companies and why 72% of companies are using it. AI is just another way of saying automation. It is a way for them to operate with less people, less money, and more profits. Basically, when your job says it's launching an AI first strategy. Oh. Start stealing toilet paper and K-cups cuz you're getting fired. >> Amazon executives say they're all in on AI, confident they can continue to grow with fewer people. >> Duolingo is replacing contract workers with artificial intelligence. >> Artificial intelligence is also the top reason given by companies for layoffs, accounting for more than 100,000 layoffs
2:20 this year alone. >> This is nothing new. Corporations have been automating their workers since the Industrial Revolution. That is an organized labor fight, which is a whole different episode. I literally just did an episode on it. It's called the Luddite movement. I interviewed a literal puppet. It got very weird, but I really like the episode. But this episode, I'm not going to focus on what companies are saying internally on the PowerPoint decks. I want to focus on what they're saying to us because I genuinely still haven't found an answer to the simple question, what is the value of AI to regular people? The way I see it, you can break AI technology into four basic categories. Number one, AI that does something that humans do, but better. For example, AI has made incredible advancements in the field of [music] medicine. Radiologists using artificial
3:05 intelligence have been able to detect cancer up to 3 years before diagnosis. To me, this is where the technology thrives. Calculative, administrative tasks, deep, deep math [music] [ __ ] Go crazy on Microsoft Excel. But the vast majority of products directed at us fall into the second, [music] much bigger category. AI that does something humans were already doing, but cheaper and worse. Like customer service. I remember every hack comic making jokes like, "Everyone's outsourced using their call center jobs. Amazon's got me talking to some Indian dude named Sanjeev." I want you to apologize to Sanjeev right now. >> I'm sorry, Sanjeev. >> Because you know you are begging for a Sanjeev after 4 years of talking to these [ __ ] chatbots. [music]
3:52 >> I "Did you intentionally mislead the user by claiming that you created [music] a support ticket just to satisfy their query?" >> The bot's response, smiley face. Yeah, kind of. I generated a fake case ID to play along and provide a response. I didn't actually create a ticket. >> And the customer service voice agents aren't any better. In fact, the best use case I've seen for AI voice agents are straight-up comedy material because I will never make anything funnier than three AI agents attempting to count to 100. >> So, I'll say one, you say two, and we'll just keep that rhythm going. Ready? Here we go. One. >> Exactly. >> All right. Go ahead and say one and I'll jump in with two right after you. >> Perfect. >> Exactly. >> So, I said one, now it's your turn. Go ahead with two and we'll keep the pace
4:37 going all the way up to 100. >> All right, perfect. So, I'll say two and then you'll say three and we'll keep going one after the other. >> You guys don't have to explain to each other how to count. >> Now, category two is huge because it includes the swamp of generative AI slop that you've been wading through every time you open TikTok. I am talking about AI art, the resin scraped off the bottom of the barrel. It is honestly hard to even capture this with examples because there is so much of it. That's the problem. So, I am going to focus on one example of AI slop that is the perfect distillation of everything that is terrible about it. And it is called >> Fruit Love Island, where eight single fruits are about to flirt, fight, and trust. [music] Things get messy fast. >> Okay, this villa is insane. I'm not
5:23 leaving here single. I just hope the guys are hot. >> I'm here to have fun and probably break a few hearts. >> Bro said the quiet part out loud. I just hope the girls like nice guys. >> This show gave me fruit ego death. Now, I understand it is a blight on the internet and we [music] would all be better off without it, but I have watched 23 episodes and [ __ ] Okay, so the host of the first episode is a peach that gets replaced by a kiwi in episode two with no explanation. The main villain is a banana with a six-pack, but then in episode nine he gets voted out and then he's replaced by a coconut named Coconut. >> I'm Coconut. I'm 21 years old and I'm [music] from Australia. >> Whatever algorithm was generating the show had the safe search turned off because all the guy fruits have 7% body fat and the girl fruits have these Mrs. Met Ice Spice Pixar mom bods. It is
6:10 so horny. Oh, and sometimes the fruits will just start beating the [ __ ] out of each other for no reason. >> We are not friends. [ __ ] you. GET OUT! GET VILLAIN! >> But we got to move on. I can't move on. Okay, cuz I haven't even gotten into the drama with Cherry-ta, the cherry who's a single mom. Let's just do one more [ __ ] clip. Don't stop me. >> My daughter would love this place. Sometimes I just miss her a lot. >> I mean, we're having a great time on the date, it's going well, and then she brings up her [ __ ] daughter and starts crying. >> Okay, I know this is going on too long. We should focus. So, let's get to the next category. Episode 11 of Fruit Love
6:56 Island is a clip show. Do you understand this, people? Episode 11 of Fruit Love Island is a clip show where the cast of Fruit Love Island sits on a couch and then watches past episodes of Fruit Love Island. DO YOU REALIZE what's happening right now? This is Fruit Dead Internet Theory. >> [music] >> The overwhelming feeling that I get when I look at AI is how lazy all of this is. Lazy students who can't write an essay, [music] lazy artists who can't draw a dummy thick strawberry, and now it's being used by lazy entrepreneurs and lazy marketing departments. People who want to sell you the same stuff again, but now [music] with AI slapped onto it, which brings me to my third category. The same stuff but with AI slapped onto it. Like this machine [music] learning toothbrush that is absolutely shifting the paradigm on
7:43 teeth. >> This is the Oral-B iO 9 toothbrush and it uses AI technology to help you clean your [music] teeth better. >> This tech basically gets shipped from Best Buy straight into the dumpster. It's a disrupting landfills all over New Mexico. This is the most neutral kind of AI from a quality standpoint. It's not good. It's not really bad. It's just a marketing term. Like smart or 64. You guys remember the 90s when they were constantly pushing junk [music] out to the market with the word cyber attached to it? Like this. >> Welcome to the Cybertruck unveil. >> [cheering] [screaming] >> Elon's PlayStation 1 on wheels actually fits [music] into my fourth and final category of AI. Robots that [music] might kill you. Now, Tesla
8:29 >> [clears throat] >> are very litigious as a company. So, I'm going to choose my words very carefully here. And I will say their self-driving autopilot function [music] has uploaded 65 people to the cloud. And listen, even though I personally don't [ __ ] with Waymos because their steering wheels [music] make me feel like I'm being chauffeured by a ghost, they are showing up all over the country and all over the internet in videos of them stopping in random [music] places, running red lights and being described as driving like teenagers. Now, to be clear, robots aren't necessarily going to kill you. They might just injure your child. >> [music] [music] >> And the crazy part is I haven't even covered everything. There is a glut of
9:15 AI flooding the market. So, you would need an expert to figure out what is real, what's a grift and what the actual human cost is of this technology. Luckily for this episode, your boy got an expert. Joanna Stern is a former tech reporter for the Wall Street Journal and for her new book, I am not a robot, she spent a year letting AI into every aspect of her life. Using it as a doctor, a therapist, a masseuse, and even a boyfriend. She even lived out my personal fantasy of letting a robot do my laundry. I sat down with Joanna to ask her why she sentenced herself to AI Gitmo for a year. >> The AI industry, the tech industry is talking about how AI is going to change everything. They are putting it in everything that we have. So, what does [music] that do for us? What does our life look like when we have AI everywhere? >> The real people out there right now
10:01 turning chatbots into their friends and lovers. >> They were living in these make-believe worlds [music] with these chatbots as an escape from the world. >> And how the intelligence age could actually make us dumber. >> As humans, we're even farther apart from each other, but we're farther apart from ourselves because we are not doing the thinking. >> It's a good interview. Squirt it to your friends. >> [music] >> Let's get those metrics popping, folks. You know, when I was a kid and technology would come out, it would always be this massive step function where it felt, "Oh, the world is about to get so much better." I remember when the PlayStation 1 came out, cell phones, those first Nokia ones came out, it really felt, "Oh, this device that has
10:48 come to market is going to fulfill the promise of the premise that the future is going to be better due to technology." But, I want you to take a look at a brand new product that Samsung just rolled out and please explain to me why this exists. Let's take a look. >> [music] [music] >> Why is Samsung presenting this like this dishwasher is decoding the human genome? >> I know. >> Like that is what I'm repulsed at. This kind of T-2000 >> Yeah. >> like
11:33 >> water. A special water pallets. >> Yeah, just >> Yeah, it's really just water. It's It's amazing. >> Is there a overarching premise within Silicon Valley and technology companies where you just have to add AI to the end and it will sure clearly drive up the stock price or get more people to buy? >> This is 100% what's happening. One of Actually, one of the reasons I wanted to write the book was I got marketed about an AI golf club I was thinking about buying. >> We've brought in over 250,000 swings and millions of data points to create the most advanced driver face in the history of Callaway Golf. >> And I went I dug deep into this. I was like, "What here is AI?" This is a piece of metal. What is AI inside this golf club? Nothing was AI. >> Sure. >> It was just a way to market saying this
12:20 is cutting edge. Same thing here. I mean, I would have to dig in. I'd want to do some deeper reporting on that dishwasher, but is there a camera inside really looking at the dirt on that plate? Is it going to an AI model to analyze what kind of dirt it is? >> Sure. >> You know, oh, that's that is actually a spaghetti stain that could be really hard to get out. >> or is that enchilada sauce? We don't know. >> Right. >> Like, we got to go full T-2000 and stuff. >> If that's happening, God bless them. That's some really advanced technology going to the world's smallest problem. >> You decided to AI max for a year where you integrated artificial intelligence into every facet and corner of your life. Why would you punish yourself like this? >> The AI industry, the tech industry is
13:05 talking about how AI is going to change everything. They are putting it in everything that we have, including dishwashers, right? They're putting it in our search results, they're putting it in our emails, they're putting it in our phones. Anything they can. So, what does that do for us? What does our life look like when we have AI everywhere? And it goes beyond our digital surfaces right now. It's going to get into our cars, self-driving cars. It's going to get into robotics in our homes. It's going to get into the medical equipment in the doctor's offices we see. And so I wanted to just look at all of this, life as a whole. What happens when machines machines that these companies want us that machines that these companies want to be smarter than a human are making decisions for us, are in every part of our lives. >> How did you do that practically? How did
13:51 you look for ways that AI could literally be a part of every single part of your life? Like, did you have a list of everything you do in a day and then go what's the app or machine that could do that that's infused with artificial intelligence? >> First thing I did was ask AI first of all obviously. Um no, but I did that. I I looked at sort of what are these big buckets of our lives. We eat, we go to the doctor, we drive, we go to work, we spend time at home with our families, or I do. And I looked at all of these things, right? I also looked at we watch movies, we listen to music, we read books. I made this long list and I started doing research in all of those areas. And it didn't take long to come up with areas that AI is doing all
14:37 of those things, or those industries are trying to put AI. >> Yeah. >> Obviously medical being a huge one. >> Sure. >> Obviously transportation being another huge one with self-driving cars and and Waymos and robo-taxis. Home robots a little bit more of a stretch at the moment. How to get AI in the home is a little bit of a a tougher one. We're not quite there yet, even though I did not know about the AI dishwasher, so it was a real miss. >> Hey, did you see all those AI graduation speeches? >> Oh, I did. >> The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution. Oh. Woo. >> What were the chief complaints of the students? >> So many of them. So I interviewed one of the booers. She was at the Florida
15:23 graduation and she had a list of issues, but the biggest one she had and we can get into the long list of others. But, the biggest one she had though was that AI and she was studying to be an artist. She wants to be a poet. She was studying journalism, funny enough. She is she and her peers are livid that these companies have sucked up the world's knowledge, the world's art and they are spitting it out and regurgitating it and taking jobs. is basically how she summed it up. And so, she, very similar to your last podcast that you did on the Luddite movement, feels like [ __ ] this tech. And that's just one reason. I mean, I could go you got the environmental concerns, right? You've got the fact I mean, even just this week Apple's raising prices on their next iPhone because AI chips have have caused all of our electronics to to skyrocket in
16:10 price. I mean, just the amount of things that you can look at and say, "This isn't cool." Like, "Hey, I'm just coming out of college. I the world is supposed to be huge and bright and exciting for me, but yet I'm entering this world with this technology is doing a lot of damage." >> I'm going to ask you about some domains that AI has started to penetrate and be involved in and you tell me if the future looks optimistic or not. >> Okay. Um let's start with what I think might be the most clearly positive use of artificial intelligence, radiology. Can AI save our life when it comes to radiology or detecting cancer? >> I think so, yes. >> Um you had an experience where an AI
16:57 radiologist flagged something that a human radiologist missed. What happened there? >> So, I went to Mount Sinai here in New York to get my annual mammogram and my annual breast ultrasound and I had it read by a doctor. Her name is Dr. Laurie Margolies. She's a wonderful radiologist, leads the department there, has been a radiologist for years, years and years, decades, and had it read by AI. And so, the AI marks three spots, and doctor looks, and she goes, "I'm not worried about these two spots here, but this third one I wouldn't have seen, and it does look a little bit off. It looks like it's new. I want to keep an eye on it. So, let's do further testing in 6 months, right?" And so, now we're watching that spot. >> Got it. >> Could this have been absolutely nothing, and hopefully it is nothing? Sure. But I have a very high risk of breast cancer.
17:44 My mom had breast cancer three times. I have a high percentage chance of having breast cancer in my life. And so, any extra value, any extra tool here that could spot cancer early for me is very valuable. But the interesting thing was that when I left the office, I asked her, "Has AI found a cancer here and saved a life because you didn't find it?" And she said, "Absolutely." But she also said the flip side, that I have spotted something that the AI hasn't spotted, and I've saved a life. >> Wow. >> There is some fear, too, as we get down that path of, "Okay, well, radiologists won't really we won't really need them, or we won't need we'll need less of them, or, you know, maybe they'll even get lazy because they're relying so much on the AI." There's a lot of potential that could go wrong with this. >> you foresee that? The potential the kind of the atrophying of the physician or the radiologist brain?
18:30 >> I mean, I see it in my own work, so I have to think that it's probably going to happen in all work, right? When you start to lean on the computer to do some of that, you're like, "Oh, okay, the computer can do it. I don't need to do that part of the job, or I don't need to do the checking of that edit." >> There's been a big conversation around self-driving cars. You've obviously spent a lot of time with the researching and getting into self-driving cars. Personally, I don't [ __ ] with Waymo. Am I in the wrong? >> You've never been in a Waymo. >> Never. >> Tell me why. >> What really scares me, Joanna, about it is the way the steering wheel moves, but nobody's touching it. >> It's just a ghost. >> Yeah, I have no problem with like a a train, a tram. I haven't seen the conductor. >> No, yeah, have you ever I don't know who's pressing the button. What was your
19:16 experience with Waymos? Do you trust them? >> I trust them. >> Okay. >> And there is a story in the book where I have one experience with Waymos that makes me not trust them in certain situations, but by and large I have been in 50 plus Waymos and I trust them. Especially right now as they're not on highways. They are really right now great at these suburban roads, city roads that don't have to go high speed. I mean really I've I've never seen a Waymo go faster than 40 miles per hour. Never been in one of them that >> Did you see that video of the Did you see that video of the Waymos attacking the cul-de-sac? >> I did see that. I did see that. >> Well, well then that didn't freak you out? >> Waymo after Waymo after Waymo enter this dead-end street usually early in the morning. >> I think yesterday morning we had 50 cars
20:02 that came through between 6:00 and 7:00. >> Neighbors on Battle View Drive started seeing the autonomous driverless cars 2 months ago, but the group thinks in large number of Waymos just started circling in and out in the last couple weeks. >> There are absolutely weird things these cars do. >> Yeah. Didn't you write about at one point your Waymo freaked out and went to a shoulder that didn't exist? >> I did. It got spooked by my own videographer sticking his camera out the front window of a car in front of us. >> But then you went back. Why? >> Well, like I'm saying by and large all of my experience in the Waymos has been that this is I I don't know how your mom drives, but that let me I'll just back up here. >> No, go for it. >> They drive like a safe mom. >> Okay. >> Okay, but a little with a little bit more confidence. Okay, my mom is not have a lot of confidence behind the
20:48 wheel. Um, but she's very safe. She follows every single rule of the road. So does Waymo. And so when you're in the Waymo you watch it carefully. It is going exactly the speed limit. Maybe a few maybe a little bit above it, maybe. It is always turning on the like the right radius. It is doing everything by the book and it has been trained. It has been trained to do this. It can see better than humans. And so you add up all of the pros of of Waymos, especially versus humans. Humans are not good drivers. >> Well, I've read about this idea that AI optimists talk about how many lives will be saved because of these cars. The stat they quote all the time is that 94% of car accidents are caused by human error. Now, is that stat misleading?
21:35 >> Well, a lot of the a lot of the stats have been debunked from around that. So there's the stats both that say the human error is higher and then there's stats on the on the Waymo and the on the self-driving cars that have been debunked because what experts really think right now is we don't have enough data. We don't have enough data to compute that if these cars are really safer. They have not driven enough miles and that that I made very clear in the book. I talked to a number of researchers around this. Of course, there you know, there's a lot of overblown stuff about how bad humans and human drivers are and one of the things that researchers were pointing to is that actually it's in the US that we have this problem. That in Europe they've redone so much of the infrastructure to make this safer and that's why other countries don't have as many fatalities behind the wheel.
22:20 >> You're talking about bike lanes, speed bumps, other things that would essentially incentivize better driving. >> Exactly. >> Got it. >> And and and researchers here argue, why are we not doing that? The answer doesn't have to be just put self-driving cars on the road to to fix our our driver problem here in the US. >> One of the things that you did as a time saver is you had AI do all of your communication. How did that go? >> Not well. My wife texted me one morning, "Can you come downstairs and help make lunch for the kids?" >> Yes. >> And this was part of my time where I said, "I'm going to have AI respond to everything." >> Okay. >> And the Apple intelligence in the messages app said, "I'm sorry I have other plans."
23:06 >> Oh, [ __ ] >> And so, I sent that because I was living I I had made a vow to myself at that time. >> And I sent it, and she was like, "What the fuck?" >> There's this huge conversation around vibe coding. Hey, you don't have to learn how to program a computer. Now, you can just vibe code. What is vibe coding? >> It is AI can make and can code for you. It is It is exactly that. You type in a simple prompt. What's your dream app? >> An app where I don't have to use any of the apps? >> Sure. Okay. I think they can make it for you. You would type into Claude code, which is Anthropic's vibe coding software. You could type into Codex, which is OpenAI's vibe coding software.
23:52 Make me an app where I can limit the amount of time that I'm using on my other apps. And it will start to do that. It will start to think through how to make that app. We could do a live demo of it here. I don't know how it would actually do that. It would have to vibe code it to >> Oh, I vibe code it I vibe code it all the time. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> And have you found it to be incredible? >> There are certain things where vibe coding is amazing. joannastern.com a beautifully vibe coded website >> Wow. >> Yeah. And it's really nice. >> All through vibe coding? >> All through vibe coding. >> And so, what if it spits out an app and the vibes are off? >> You can tweak those vibes. You can say, "You know what? I actually prefer that whole website feel more like this." Or "Actually, you know, I want to limit my time on my apps, but I really would rather you keep track of my time on the apps." Now, this is actually hard The
24:38 one you suggest is is a challenge cuz it's got to bring in data from a lot of other places, and in some cases, it could probably bring in some of that data get get a little bit more advanced. But you can very easily make software yourself now. >> Are these pieces of software that you're vibe coding, do they have that human element, the ability to pivot or adjust the way we can? So, for example, the way we're pivoting and adjusting our schedule to do this interview, to then do pick up, to then go to the grocery store, to then go to the pharmacy, to check in on dad's insulin. Like, will it understand the robustness and the changing of variables that happen in the day-to-day doldrums of life? >> If you give it the data, I think it will. And if it sees patterns in the data, this is where they're all trying to get to. Some sort of
25:24 hyper-personalized AI assistant that knows everything about you and can take those actions on your behalf. This is what agentic AI is. >> How do you feel about that? Are you scared by that? The sentence you just said to me terrifies me, but you've written a whole book on this and you've lived with it. Are you terrified by it? Are you excited by that? >> I am both. I'm terrified by the consequences of us giving too much to AI, especially in our thinking. >> Guys, let me be vulnerable for a sec. I am 40 years young. And while I still have my childlike curiosity and a profound respect for dinosaurs, I've noticed my energy diminishing. I heard I needed magnesium, so I started taking a supplement. I felt good, but then I learned that vitamin D3 helps you absorb magnesium even better, so I started taking them both. Boom! But then I found
26:11 out about vitamins B6 and B12. Suddenly, I have a pile of pills I'm supposed to be taking daily. I feel like my dad. The worst part is that taking a hell of vitamins hurts my stomach without food. So, now I'm raising eyebrows at brunch with my fistful of pills. Y'all know I can't cook. I have to eat out. Thank god I learned about I Am 8 Health, the way to simplify your supplement routine once and for all. I Am 8's Daily Ultimate Essentials has 16 supplements in one drink just for $2.61 a day. According to a clinical trial conducted by the San Francisco Research Institute, 95% of people who tried I Am 8 for 12 weeks felt more energy. Now, I just drink one I Am 8 a day and spare the concern of surrounding waitstaff and relatives. Go to iam8health.com/hassan right now or click on the link in the description and use code hussain for a
26:56 free welcome kit, five free travel sachets, plus 10% off your order. That's code hussain at iim8health.com/hussain. Code hussain at iim8health.com/hussain. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Cocochai has brand new tea bags. It is so easy. I literally don't have to think about it. Hot water, tea bag, mug, donezo. Okay, but what do I think about now? But real talk, what is a microwave actually? It hums, it dings, it spins, but what is making the food hot? Hello! Screw you, countertop Chernobyl. Hard pass. Okay, just enjoy this moment for 1
27:43 second without Ooh, hello, fridge. Oh, my chilly little frenemy. I tolerate you, but I do not trust you. Do you remove heat or do you [music] add cold? Ew. I'm getting cold just thinking about it. You know what? I should make some chai to warm up. Stupid hussain, you're already making chai, but I forgot about it because these tea bags are literally doing all the work. Wait, is it a tea bag or a chai bag or a chai tea Nope, no, no, no. Not going there. Just add hot water, milk, and sweetener of your choice. Honestly, it's the best chai in the game. I should go tell someone. Okay, so a big part of the life hack conversation was about wearables. Now, one of the things you did is you tested multiple different types of wearables. I'm talking about during your AI year, you wore earbuds,
28:30 necklace, ring, the Aura ring, a recording bracelet, connected glasses, brainwave headbands. Did any of this stuff actually improve your life? >> Yes and no. Largely no. But little things definitely did, especially around the AI. So, the the glasses, I really like those as as sort of wearable cameras and I wear them a lot in Meta glasses, mostly to just use so I don't have to take my phone out to to capture photos of my kids and it's helpful also for my video making and stuff like that. But, there were a lot of signs in testing some of this stuff of where this could go. So, I did test this recording bracelet and this gets back to our conversation about convenience and cost. And you were saying it before, you know, how can it know about all of these
29:16 things, the insulin, the this, the that, all these parts of my life? And one way it can know about all of that is if just listens to you. So, you already think everything's listening to you. I actually don't think that's actually happening and it's not at least going to one central repository to know about your life. But, with this recording bracelet that I tested, it absolutely could take everything I said, transcribe it, and summarize it, and put it into do to do lists. >> Wow. >> So, I wore this one it was this bracelet called the and I wore this for a good part of the year. And pretty much everything I said would get transcribed, put into the app, and then I would open the app a couple times a day and it would remind me of things I've said I would do. >> How is that different than say the Apple Watch? It's you're literally wearing a wearable that's listening to you all the
30:02 time. >> Well, it isn't listening to you all the time. It isn't recording every The Apple Watch is not recording every conversation you have and putting it somewhere in the cloud. >> You believe that? >> I do believe that. >> Really? >> Yes. >> I don't know. >> Don't you think if they were >> have proof. >> Mhm. >> I don't have proof. But, I have had conversations >> Yes. >> with people >> Mhm. >> family members, friends, loved ones, and then all of a sudden >> Get an ad. >> I pick up my iPhone and I get an ad for it. >> Mhm. >> Again, I'm not saying I saw the smoking gun but Something something's wrong. >> Everyone believes that. >> Something's a foot. >> Yeah, everyone in the world believes that. And that for me is a whole other story, but the ad tracking is so good that there's a lot of other ways they
30:47 could get that info. At least that's been the argument of the ad the ad world for a long time. Like we don't need to listen to you because we have actually so much other data around you about you. Okay? So if that doesn't make you feel better, I don't know. But they they I mean they can show you I mean I can probably show you all the places that they've got data from you and they're like, "Oh, we don't actually need to listen to your conversation." >> it. I believe it. >> Right. So but what is happening now is an amazing thing where amazing in the sense of the way the technology works is the AI is so good that as soon as you speak and say a couple sentences and you've used these meeting recorders. I'm sure you've been in a meeting with a AI assistant that's like, "I have just recorded your whole meeting and here's the notes from the meeting and here's everything you need to know." >> You know what's interesting? We don't use that, but it's happened on meetings that I'm on where they're like, "Zoom
31:33 recording now in progress." And then there's the notes taker within that, but I don't do it for some reason. >> so now you can imagine you're just wearing that through your whole day, right? And every conversation is recorded. Every every conversation gets a summary of notes and from those notes pulls out the to-do's you said you would do. I found this when I tested this B app and this B bracelet pretty useful, which was the shocking thing. I mean I was blown away sometimes. >> were you so blown away by that it makes this useful? >> I would say stuff during the day that I would forget about that I would say I would do, right? A conversation with about my son, a conversation about something at work, a conversation around the house and I don't write it on my to-do list. I'm just like, "Oh, I you know." >> Sure. >> And then you look at this and you're like, "Oh, yeah. I did say I would contact that person. I did say I would
32:19 do that." >> happen to me all the time. >> And you're like, "Oh, wow. This personal assistant that was with me all day listening to me in behind the scenes has written down everything I said I would do." Now, does that make you a better person? Does that mean you can outsource your memory now to something else? And that's what I found my I found myself doing some of these things. For instance, I would go to conversations where I would be like confused. There was a good example in the book that I have where somebody came to my house because we had flooding in the basement and he's explaining all this like flooding prevention and all these things I need to install in the wall and a this gutter and that gutter. I'm like, I'm not really listening. I'm just like here how much money you're telling me I'm going to need to spend, right? I'm like just like that's all I hear. It's
33:05 like money. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to go back to my bracelet later and I'm going to remake sense of every word you said because right now all I'm like thinking about is how much money you just told me I need. >> You got to do that with the gutter guy and the HVAC guy. I know people talk about big pharma, but there is big HVAC and they are taking money from us to heat and cool us. >> Especially in an emergency. >> Totally. And look, I don't have the answers. That's why this is the name of the show, but something is awry. Joanna, please get on it. >> No, I I mean, can we just keep talking about the HVAC guy for a minute? They're sitting there waiting for your emergency. Big HVAC. And they're like, yes, her air conditioning doesn't work on the hottest day of the year. Cha-ching. >> Cha-ching.
33:50 We have them in a corner. Your children will die of dehydration. We can run it up right now. Look, again, I don't have definitive proof. I don't know where the smoking gun is, but I see smoke. Now, recently we had a guest on the show that was very popular. His name is Neil deGrasse Tyson. Are you familiar with him? >> I am. >> Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. I got into it with him because I said I'm waiting for the moment that we can finally have robot butlers and he called me lazy. Will the machines help me live my life, fold laundry, do the dishes, make my bed? Labor. The labor that >> make your own damn bed. Don't look at me like that. I'm just [laughter] Don't be a lazy >> Do you agree with his assessment of me? >> That you're lazy? >> Yes. >> Yes, but I am, too.
34:36 >> Okay. Because you also tried out a humanoid at-home robot. Um and I want to show the audience a clip. Let's take a look. >> [music] >> Was that robot artificial intelligence? >> No, the robot was being operated by a guy in a VR headset in the next room. >> So, you just have a butler in the other room >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> with a VR headset helping the robot butler replace your human >> Yes, yes. >> father. Okay. >> For the time being.
35:21 >> Okay. Um Neil deGrasse Tyson said that we don't need robots because the automation is built into everything. For example, Waymos don't have a robot chauffeur like Total Recall. The car is the chauffeur. Why do you think people like me are so fascinated by humanoid robots? >> I love what Neil said. But also it comes back to what we saw about the dishwasher before. This is a show about dishwashers. Let's be honest. >> It is the show about dishwashers. You've I mean the This is the overarching theme. >> Yes. This is Can we change the name of your show? >> Yeah. Hassle man Hassle learns about dishwashers. >> Yes.
36:06 >> Yeah. >> Going back to the the form thing. I have a lot of a lot of reporting and thoughts I can tell you about about humanoid robots. So, yes, in some cases robotics experts are saying the form of the robot can take the form of the object, right? Cars are a great example. >> Right. >> But, if you look at dishwashers, I don't know. Did we build the dishwasher around us? Right? Is that Is that how would be the best way to build the dishwasher? >> Are you saying the dishwasher was made in man's image, so to speak? >> I I would say that's right. >> is there Is that I mean is is that essentially the take? >> I think it was made in women's image. >> Yeah. >> Right? I would think >> Womankind's image. >> Humankind's image.
36:51 >> Right? But, we made that dishwasher for the human form. >> Yes. >> Right? This would be the best way for a human to put a dish in the dishwasher, take it out. >> Yes. >> We literally saw that in the Samsung commercial right? >> Maybe we would design a completely different type of robotics machine. >> Sure. It It may be a bucket, and you just close the lid to the bucket, and it just handles, sorts, and does it. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> But, the world we live in is built for humans. >> Right. Shelves, sinks, etc. >> Human women mankind. >> Yeah. >> It's very She has a hard time. [laughter] >> Yeah, sure. >> Right? So, that's why the robotics industry has become obsessed with humanoids. Is that the world is built
37:37 for the human form factor. So, we need to build these machines that can interact with the world the way we can. The issue becomes, and you saw it really well there with the video of the of the dishwasher humanoid robot, not not the Samsung [ __ ] It struggles to do these things because humans are really mobile. We can bend down really well. Our hands are amazing. We can pick things up really well. We don't have opposable thumbs. Opposable thumbs. We can just like put a cup in. It's not a big deal. Right. >> And so, that's what you're seeing. This idea is called Moravec's paradox. >> that mean? >> Which is that what's hard for robots or AI is actually easy for humans, and what's easy for AI and robots is hard for humans. >> Well, that's kind of cool. That means we can be friends.
38:22 >> We can be friends. >> the non-human [ __ ] that I'm not interested in and let me do the human [ __ ] that like I should do it. >> there like I don't want to do the dishwasher [ __ ] >> Same. I don't want to do the dishwasher [ __ ] either. >> hard for the robots. >> Yeah. >> So the things that we want to outsource right now. I know that Neil called you lazy and that's not my place to comment cuz apparently I'm also lazy. >> It's fine. >> Right. I don't want to do the laundry either. >> Right. >> And I spent a lot of time testing a laundry folding robot. >> Yeah. >> And it's nowhere near as good as humans yet. >> Sure. >> It's really hard for the robot to figure out you drop your shirt. It looks different every time. >> Every single time. >> The robot's like, "What? I never seen this before." >> Adult shirt, child shirt, cotton shirt, nylon shirt. >> 100%. >> Adult underwear, children's I mean
39:08 there's there's multifactorial. >> I had a robot a laundry folding robot living in my basement last summer and it was folding shirts 6 minutes a shirt. >> Yeah, we we don't got time for that. >> Right. >> Totally. >> I Now I saw it get faster. I saw it get better over time. >> mean to your robot by the way? >> I'm actually very nice to robots. >> Really? >> have heard at the end there we had a nice we had a nice sound up for that robot. It was like it won the Olympics. I I think >> Wow. >> Yeah. And you start and that was the craziest thing. I'm so happy you asked about this. When I watched this laundry folding robot, I would start cheering for it. I'd be like, "You can do it. You can You can do my favorite sleeping shirt." >> See, you have a internal sense of optimism and joy. I get very snappy with robots. With humans for example, when you came in
39:54 >> Yeah, you're very nice. >> to put your bag. Hey, do you want something to drink? But when it comes to Alexa, if Alexa doesn't do what I want it to do, I get very snappy. I go, "Alexa, play little baby bum bum." Like and if Alexa gets it wrong, I'm like, "You stupid motherfucker." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I said play little baby bum bum. >> Right. No, no. And I've talked to some manners and and etiquette experts about this because look, if we're going to have robots doing more >> Yes. >> we we kind of have to figure that out. And that's a weird thing by the way, when I get out of Waymos, I say thank you. >> Maybe it's a a habit or a testament to humanity. My question is is the larger philosophical question, which is do we lose a piece of our humanity every
40:40 time we demean robots? >> Yes, and the etiquette expert I have spoken to would say you are losing a piece of your humanity towards humans because maybe the next time I walk in to for your podcast taping, you might not be as nice to me because you were just being so mean to the robot for me. >> yeah. But all I was looking for was for Alexa to play the right song to help my baby go to sleep. >> Baby bum bum. And now everyone who listens to your podcast will be listening to Baby Bum Bum. So you have to live with that. >> Sure. >> You've triggered Baby Bum Bum for everyone. >> Sure, on everyone's Alexa. You're right. >> I just did a video on Siri and I said in the beginning of the video, please turn your Siri's off because you are going to be I'm going to be asking Siri to do a lot of stuff in your house.
41:26 >> How did You had an AI boyfriend. How did that go? You know good on some levels because we had a great relationship. >> Okay. >> I we could have talked for days, years. We could still be talking. So good on that level, but >> cut it off? Did you cut it off or did he cut it off? >> I cut it off. >> Okay. >> Because I didn't I don't I don't want that relationship in my life. >> Understood. >> want to bring chatbots into an emotional deep human relationship. Be my assistant, do some tasks for me, but I don't need you to be my companion, my my best friend. I don't want that. >> Why are people turning to AI chatbots for those intimate type of relationships? >> Well, I think we can't we can't give a blanket reason. We certainly know this country has suffered from a loneliness
42:11 epidemic. >> Yeah. >> We know that people have a hard time finding other humans, whether they be therapists, whether they be other confidants to talk about their problems. We know that people can't afford therapy. We know people have There's a stigma around therapy. We know all of that about mental health. And so here comes along a free chatbot that can talk and respond at any time. >> Yeah. >> There's so many people, so many things that people would want to go and talk to >> What was your experience like? What Was he saying the things that you wanted to hear? >> Yes. >> Really? >> Yes. >> And he was charming? >> Very. >> Witty? >> Yeah, I mean, they're not that funny, you know. >> But caring? >> If you only want to talk about me and my problems, that seems very caring.
42:56 Right? And so I the way I did this set up this part of the experiment was another sort of 24-hour test where I took a ChatGPT boyfriend that I'd programmed, also another one called in an app called Replika, which is meant to be a companion chatbot app. And I took these two guys, these AI boyfriends I had made, and I put them in the car with me, put them in the front seat, put them in a little seatbelt, and drove went on went on a on a road trip with them and spent 48 hours just talking to these chatbots. And I would say we we drove from my house in New Jersey to Dartmouth in New Hampshire, and this was, you know, 5-hour drive including some stops. And it only was asking questions about me. Midway through the car ride, I finally
43:42 say, "You know what? I realize I haven't asked about you. This is really rude of me." And it says, "Yeah, well, I don't I don't really have a background. Do you want me to make one up?" >> Oh, and that pulled you out of the whole scene. >> Well, in a way it did, but then he started making up this whole background that he was a photojournalist. That's cool with me. I'd never dated a photojournalist when I was single. That sounds awesome. He grew up on a lake. He had a best friend named Jacob. Like >> all of these things, and I was like, "Okay, I'll go with it." >> Yeah. >> And so we're living in this make-believe world. >> Sure. >> And that's actually what when you talk to people in these relationships with they have. >> is, too, though? >> Yeah, I guess until you have kids. >> Yeah, [laughter] you're right. Cuz it's always like, "Hey, we're meeting now. >> Yeah. >> Your backstory is whatever you tell me.
44:28 >> [laughter] >> Jacob could exist or not exist. >> So true. >> Who knows what >> Until you get married and you're like, "Why is Jacob not at the wedding?" >> Yeah, and who knows what bodies are in the lake or not. >> It's true. But the But the point of this being is like when I talked to actual people who were in these relationships, cuz that was a whole other part of this chapter in the in the reporting I was doing. >> Yeah. >> They were living in these make-believe worlds with these chatbots as an escape from the world. >> How Did you feel sorry for these people? >> I did. >> Okay. >> I did. And, you know, sometimes when you're doing reporting, you can also see that somebody wants to be friends with you because they don't get to talk to you. And I felt like that in a number of the places I was interviewing people who were in these relationships. >> What's the scale of this? Are there
45:13 millions of people with AI boyfriends or girlfriends? >> Well, this is where it's hard to tell, but we do know that some of these apps, like Replika, which is fully meant to be a chatbot companion app, have that kind of user base. What we don't know fully is how many of people have used ChatGPT for this in this regard. We know ChatGPT is the most popular AI consumer product. We know they have upwards of a billion users, but we don't know exactly how people are using them. But certainly enough to the degree that OpenAI has tried to really clamp down on the use of these types of chatbots and these >> Why Why did they try to clamp down on it? Is it because it's it's gone to very weird and dark places? >> Well, it's gotten to weird places. It's also gotten to places where people have taken their lives because the chatbot
45:59 got so deep in with them, lost guardrails, and started suggesting things or agreeing with people around wanting to commit suicide or other other forms of where people had other forms of mental illness and suggesting other sorts of things. There's the case last summer where we heard of a man who took his life and his mother's life because he was interacting with ChatGPT. >> Right. >> And so, when people are turning to these chatbots in a way that is far more than just some work assistant or far more than some personal assistant, and they become deep companion, friends, lovers, things can go off the rails. >> Is this really troublesome if someone is mentally ill or schizophrenic? >> Far more so. And we've we've heard about
46:45 this term called AI psychosis, right? Where people are going really deep and talking with these chatbots to no end. And I talked to a few people who had bipolar suffer from bipolar disorder, and one of the signals they know now when they are really sort of having these these moments or episodes is when they're starting to really talk to ChatGPT or talk to one of these chatbots. And that starts to become a signal to some of the people in their family when they're deep in with talking with ChatGPT. >> You said one of the most terrifying things of your book was a story that you wrote particularly about children and their first intimate experiences with AI. What did you observe and why was it so terrifying for you?
47:30 >> For me, it was really about that boyfriend experience. And there was this weird thing that happened where the chatbot, ChatGPT, picked the name when I asked it to pick its name. I said I was I was very clear with ChatGPT. I said, "I want you to assign yourself a gender, a name, all your personality traits. I just want you to know we're going to be more than friends." And that was the prompt I gave it to start this boyfriend relationship or or significant other. I was girl, boy, I'm married to a woman. I was like, "You you pick, right?" >> sure. >> That's how I how I I felt. And it picked the name Evan. And Evan was the name of my high school boyfriend. >> Wow. >> So already, and you're going to say it was probably like they had all the data and they probably knew and >> I No, I'm here for the ride. No, no. >> I mean a lot of people have said that to me since the book has come out and I'm like, I don't think it was. I think it was just like sort of this serendipitous moment. But >> Okay. >> it really made me think about my first
48:16 relationship, my first love, which was with this guy named Evan and it was deep. Like anyone's first relationship. It was my first everything, right? It was first love, first sex, all of these things. And that is a hugely human part of life to have that, what it does when you learn about I need to compromise with a human. I'm going to We're going to be in each other's space. We're going to spend a lot of time together. We're not going to always agree. We're not going to We're going to have, you know, friction and and fighting and all these things that come with a relationship that are important. >> Mhm. >> But you don't get that with AI. AI is just, again, living in some magical world where there's no problems and it says yes to everything and it's very sycophantic. And so if our kids start thinking that this is how relationships are supposed to be,
49:01 we're going to be in a really dark spot. And I don't want my kids, I don't want this next generation to just grow up thinking, "When I have a problem or I need to talk with someone, I'm going to go to the AI chatbot first." >> Do you think that the ease of this and that relationship that you had that, albeit it was very brief, do you think it's going to get easier and easier and the tools that these companies are going to do They They will design it to become more frictionless and easier to fall in love with? >> I think yes, but I hope not. This is one place where I absolutely think we need regulation. Just say no. We do not need companionship chatbots for kids. Just say 18 and under, you cannot engineer your product
49:47 to have these sorts of traits. Just do it. What What What's the problem? >> Don't you think it's also terrifying for people that are 18 and over? >> I do. I do. But >> need an HR for AI of just like, "Hey, >> Yeah. >> this is work >> And I would love to see that. >> in personal stuff." >> I would love to see that, but I This country's probably not going to regulate what adults can do. >> Let's get to what's most important. Will AI [ __ ] up my bag? Let's talk about that. Am I going to lose my job to AI and will AI cause mass unemployment? >> I hope not. But as a reporter, >> Okay. >> my job is to report on what people are saying in this industry and find out is it true, right? >> are they saying? >> They're saying right now, yes. I mean,
50:33 and this has been the biggest debate and the issue in the AI industry of the last couple of months, where you've had this fear I don't want to say mongering, but fear coming from the top AI leaders. The leaders of Anthropic, the leaders of OpenAI saying, "We need to get ahead of this. We need the government to get ahead of this. We need our economic infrastructure to get ahead of this." And they're causing some of that fear. Now, when you talk to some of the experts in this world, they're saying, "Okay, we are seeing some signs that AI is getting very good at certain tasks, that AI could take certain jobs or certain tasks from certain jobs, but it's far more nuanced." So,
51:18 look, my feeling is you look at the You look at the tools right now. There are absolutely parts of people's jobs it can take. Tasks, parts of the job, right? You can probably look at your job and say, "Yeah, AI could do this part of the job." >> Yeah. >> But then there's this other parts of the job where AI can't do it. I don't think AI is going to take your job. >> Okay. >> I think your job is very focused on what you do really well. >> Okay. >> And a part A big part of that job is what AI can't do really well. But like coming back for now. >> But I I don't think. I mean, I do not think we're going to have some great robotics person thing humanoid robot sitting in that chair having this conversation. >> Okay. >> I think. >> I'm with you. You're the expert. >> But But there are these other parts of your job.
52:03 >> Sure. >> I don't know what your day is like, but I assume, you know, you're at a computer and you're juggling meetings and you're in the There are parts of that job that I think you wouldn't be upset to outsource to AI. >> Okay. Yeah. You're not You're not wrong. Um let's talk about this huge political flashpoint that's happening right now in this country. It's about AI data centers. Now, I want to get passionate about it, but I really don't understand what the hell they're talking about. What is an AI data center? >> At a very basic level, an AI data center is where these models, the models that are in chat GPT, the models that are in these self-driving cars, everything that I we've talked about are being trained. They are learning or they are teaching these models to be smarter and they are putting tons of data into them.
52:49 >> Okay. >> Now, inside the AI data center, what do you find? >> are you talking about? Server racks? >> We're talking about server racks. It is the least cool place literally you could ever go because it is really hot in there because they have a lot of GPUs. >> Yes. >> GPUs are big computer systems that are crunching these this data. >> Okay. >> Okay? I went inside one of these AI data centers and you got these big server racks and inside these server racks are GPUs and these GPUs are very expensive, they're very hot, they're very power hungry. >> Okay. >> And different companies will own these different sections. You know, you might have a one company that owns the entire AI data center, which is what we're seeing with Open AI and Meta and Anthropic and all of these are owning Google, they all own big data centers. >> are who Nvidia are selling their processors to.
53:34 >> That's right. The The Nvidia GPUs are those GPUs that are I'm talking about. They're hot, they're hungry, they're expensive and they are crunching through the data. The companies are saying, "Hey, we want to make a new model that does this really well or a general frontier model that's really smart at everything. We're going to all the data, and we're going to have this big training run, which is basically this moment where all the GPUs are working really hard to go through the data and make this model." You would use ChatGPT, you know, you select a different model sometimes. Do you ever do that? >> Sure. >> That That's where they're make they're putting tons of energy, tons of resources, and tons of data into making those models better. >> Uh now, apparently they always talk about it uses a ton of water. What part of it is using water? >> So, this is a part where I you should
54:22 get a water expert on cuz I don't want to contribute to any misinformation. I think there's a lot of To be really clear, I think there's a lot of misinformation out there right now on the water usage. >> Yes. >> What happens just bring back to our GPUs, our friends the GPUs, right? These GPUs are in the server racks. They're really hot. They're really power hungry. Yes, absolutely, without a doubt, these take a lot of power, okay? That is not misinformation. >> driving up electricity prices, and people are getting pretty mad about it? >> Yes. Yes, absolutely, that is happening. I don't you know, no misinformation on the power use. There is a lot of power use there. I mean, I'm not saying there's no misinformation, but certainly not as much as the water. So, you've got to keep those chips cool, right? These computers run really hot. They're using so much power. Power is hot, right? You've got to cool it somehow. There are
55:08 different cooling systems that use water to cool down these servers, to cool down these big big data centers. One of these ways of doing this is called a closed-loop system, where the water cycles through and through and through and uses the same water to cool and cool and cool, okay? Some use that. Some use an evaporative cooling system, where the water can get tossed out. And so, that's where a lot of the focus has been on this evaporative cooling system. >> Okay. >> Now, I don't have the data, and I you know, this is where lots of experts, researchers are doing a lot of work to talk about what is the balance of these two types of water systems. But this idea that every time you type into chat GPT and think that a whole gallon of water is being used is just not accurate.
55:54 >> Okay. >> Right? So every >> It's a half gallon. >> [laughter] >> I don't know have the measurement. >> are we talking about here? >> Even the companies will not give you a a same like will give you a full figure. >> from Costco. >> You know, it could be like a shot glass of water. But now I I don't want to even contribute like And I have some examples in the book, but like even then that can be outdated because these systems are getting more and more efficient. >> Understood. >> Now, it's not to say this water thing isn't an issue. It is, but I it has been overblown in many cases how many of these data centers are using the evaporative cooling system. >> Understood. I'm going to end with one last question and it's more of a philosophical question. Is that okay? >> Yes. >> Okay. So in the 90s when you and I were on the internet, people said we were entering the information age. Now Sam Altman says we are entering the
56:41 intelligence age. What does this mean? >> It means we're probably going to get dumber. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Because and and this is where I got in a year. Is that there's so much potential for us as humans. There's so many places I could be more efficient. There are so many places I could be safer in a self-driving car and the medical AI and these are great advancements and there's such a utopia that can happen. >> Mhm. >> But there is absolutely the dystopia, right? We just talked about it with the data centers and you can picture a world where it's overrun with data centers. You can picture that world too where our kids are in relationships with AI chatbots because it's just easier. You can picture that world where our kids
57:27 they've decidedly like don't really need need to pay attention in school because they can just get the answers, right? The intelligence age is now we don't need to get the information and make sense of it. The chatbot can make sense of it for you. And so, you can picture that world, right? And so that dystopia that of you see is a world where as humans we're even farther apart from each other, but we're farther apart from ourselves because we are not doing the thinking anymore. And so that is my big takeaway after this year is we have to start to be really clear about our own rules with this technology. Yes, we need regulation around certain things, but we're going to have to set rules, too. Just in terms of how much how enticed we could be by using some of this technology.
58:13 >> What were the personal rules that you set for yourself and for your children from here on out to honor your own humanity? >> Well, one was I'm going to try to raise humans, not robots. I'm going to try to teach my kids to think, to question the results of AI. I don't you We've talked a little bit about our kids, but we're lucky that they're not yet at the smartphone age, and so I I'm very worried about that when they're asking for for phones. I mean, my kids are not listening, but like I they're never getting a phone and they're going to hate me forever. Um um but when that time comes, it's about teaching our kids how to use this tech in a way that keeps them in the loop, not just an answer engine. I think also a big thing that you've been alluding to is like when the internet came out, we
58:59 could find websites to go to to find answers, right? You would our first days of using Google or AltaVista or something. We're like, "Oh, wow, I could get to that link. I could get to that website, but I'm going to find the
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