⁠⁠2 CEOs vs 2 Gen Zs | The Bridge S1E2: Is Personal Branding Really Necessary?

0:00 Do you think someone who's 21 years old should or should not build their personal brand? If you try to build a personal brand, there is no end. Their HR told them that you should not be so active on LinkedIn because it attracts recruiter attention. Founders who by design are forced to become storytellers because otherwise you fail. There was somebody who moved from our office and uh on day one they got this package. It had this diary, nice pen and products and I don't know whether she put it on LinkedIn of her own valition but she put it 5,000 likes. If barber shop stops being useful to Bombay normally I will stop doing it immediately. My personal brands are dangerous to build because you are only relevant to a certain set of audience at a certain point of time and then people move on. [Music]

0:59 Guys, welcome to another episode of the bridge. We have Koshik and Rayant with us and Goautami and Ai. Welcome to the bridge. Thank you so much. Uh, today we have a very interesting topic which is about the importance of building personal brands. Everyone today is in some shape or form building their own personal brand. They're doing it through podcasts. They're doing it through LinkedIn profiles. They're doing it through Instagram pages, through thought leadership, posturings, positioning to the world. A lot of effort is going into it. You have run a podcast as well. Koshik, you and Vita, of course, you have seen Vita up close kind of build a brand that is humongous, which of course has had effects on your business and on your life. And you guys have documented it so beautifully and

1:45 honestly, but a is it worthwhile? B, how much effort does one have to put into it? Uh, and C, uh, how much of a long game is it actually? Uh, given how the world is changing. So, uh, that's a topic. Uh, and a Gautumi you guys what what is your view on as Jenzi on building personal brand by I don't know I didn't even know personal brand of the world till like a few months back building a personal brand. part of the indust when personal branding comes some somebody like Amni will think Vinita is like somebody she can connect to because same Alma M some I feel like I'll

2:30 connect to Lina Nay because she went to the same school I went to and these are very heartwarming endearing stories little girls feel inspired and they look up to these women behind big organizations and big companies Right. But I feel like over the period of time now the whole charm of personal branding is somewhere lost because there are podcast after podcast maybe or if there's like constantly like a founder some doing something around it. And now because of social media we also understand how is it crafted and how how the strategy is behind personal branding. We feel like the charm that that was there to personal branding it's lost. Now charm about the authenticity. I feel charm. Authenticity is still there because people want to be authentic and there's an extra effort gone into being authentic on social media also. But the charm is somewhere lost. What do you all think? When you

3:16 say charm, you mean charm for the audience. Yeah. Or maybe the way it was more organic. It was more real. It was not like a forced fit effort made like a proper strategy. A PR team sits together. She's going to speak this when she goes here and this is what she'll do. This is what she'll wear. That was not there. and that that the real and the rawness of it just basically like when you're a public figure there's a team behind that's managing what you're putting out there in terms of what you're speaking in terms of what goes out on your socials. So is there a gap in the authenticity of what you are as a person and what you showcase in front of the audience. So I've seen this from up close and I'll tell you what what I think we've seen work best. See there are two parts to building a personal brand. One is your content and second is delivery. Now content is who you are. No

4:01 external strategy person can come and tell you I think this is trending so you should talk about this. There are a lot of people who do that but that's very shortlived and flaky. It's like a firefly you it's going to end very soon. But there are people who have been very authentic about what they believe no matter if it's trending no matter if it does not get the requisite number of engagement and they talk about it. Now I think that's hard to stick to your guns but some people like for example um since you mentioned Venita's I mean I know that she's always wanted to talk about three things fitness family work and you'll find that everything she talks about everywhere it's on these three topics and you could say that if this was manufactured somebody would have come and made this entire statement you know it's not that it's just who she is which is why she's not also very active on

4:47 social media she has not given her Instagram access to any agency. delivery I think needs help because I come from that age where beauty bloggers work right they used to write blogs take photographs and we used to lap oh content grade now as attention span kept diminishing that changes changed to YouTube videos of 7 minutes Jack changed to real also just static shots flat lays of so content delivery I think we need help anybody who's serious about building a brand building a brand seems like you're being very pompous anybody who's clear about communicating with those who should matter to them should be very aware and open to help about how the delivery format changes and I'm telling you it's going to continue to change over the next 30 years so but

5:32 content may not change this is this my two cents on it but I think there's a very interesting take when you said Vita has always wanted to speak about three things fitness family and work honestly never heard her speak about fitness because probably I've just it has not reached me the only time I associated her with fitness was when I saw like her picture in some marathon. Oh yeah. Okay. Which she did not try or which she did not intend on targeting or sending it out. I just happened to see it and that's how I knew she was into fitness. Got it. Got it. Or when I saw that she made certain investments on Shaktai in India, I knew that she had something. There was a different purpose to her and not just making money out of it or the equation that she shares with maybe Namita. I know she's a girl's girl. This is not the kind of content she's creating. This is just who she is maybe. And that is what I like about her. See,

6:17 so that that is what I meant. This is the charm that I'm get like associating myself with. I'm engaging with not the kind of things that are coming to me and are being thrown at me. So I think that is what I very interesting. That's very interesting. But I think for me the perception like I do associate her with sports probably because I relate basketball. So yeah. Yeah. So I know I relate with her background right. So I relate that I also used to play sports in college. So she plays. So I have followed her journey that way. So I think the the perception that you have based your background versus me is very different as well. So the algorithms are working. That's for sure. We can agree on but I want to know why do you why is personal branding so important to you guys when

7:03 you are starting careers because we we heard Gori with it. Um uh and a also talk about how you know rums are getting embellished a lot. I don't know whether you guys need that when you're recruiting or just points if you see a LinkedIn page it is now someone has you know started three companies he's a director's CEO two times has sold a company all while being in college a lot of people and you know when we were in MLA we are around similar vintages up winning some competition etc was a point right here the moment your peer is kind of winning a case competition or whatever. You feel like doing one up and then you feel like doing one more up plus you are the

7:50 product of possibly very successful parents. So there is pressure from both sides, right? And is that what is driving you guys to build personal brands? Cuz for for me personally and I think even for you if I were to think about it, building our own brand was very much a result of wanting commercial success for our companies. But it I don't I think it's become much wider. Yeah, I think you know I have a different perspective on that because you are thinking from the lens of a founder and commercial success for your brand to bring to you know build your own image and in congruence with your brand image right but for us as employees right we are as uh in the employee stage where we are working for other companies or other people so I think two things I'll share one is that it is often not encouraged by companies

8:35 that employees do their own personal branding or become active on social media or talk about their careers because one someone has told me that you know their HR told them that you should not be so active on LinkedIn because it attracts recruiter attention. Wow. Right. And second somebody in another company was told to stop writing on LinkedIn because it gives the impression that you have too much free time on yourself and you're not focusing on your work. Wow. I'm totally the opposite. I'm mind blown hearing this and this has happened. I have to in fact most my management I get with it on these podcast boss you should like build I should not be the only one carrying this stupid you have a problem if they would promote or talk about a competitor brand I can't do but I think some companies

9:22 for example Zeppto or blinket for example or for that example they use their employees to do a lot of branding on no there's a fine line between that yeah because do you Let's talk. Let's talk. Do you remember when you were in college and you have you all ever been like a part of the core committee like a core organizing committee of some event and you constantly pester your friends please I want more registrations please put this on story. felt like that initially when the chief brand officer was posting for me as a consumer or as a viewer for me it's like effort has so many hundred things to do in life has 100 things to do in life but he's sitting and writing a post on LinkedIn which is so long that's that means he's putting in so much effort in his brand right he's passionate about it yeah

10:09 exactly so that is why I feel like this person is putting so much effort in building his brand I feel very connected to that brand that is one part but if koshik makes all of his employees start posting about sugar. I'll be like what is this? I mean don't over manufactured. It seems fake. No, I was thinking that why would it feel fake right? I'm working for a company. I am rel I'm now related to it. I represent the company in some way. I'm associated and if I'm talking about it, it should look authentic, right? Yeah. I mean as long as you're doing it because I mean once you're saying is the same post the write up is the same. I mean nobody but this has real consequences. I remember there was somebody who moved from our office and they joined uh fine Laura okay and uh on day one they got this package u it

10:56 had this diary nice pen and products and I don't know whether she put it on LinkedIn of her own valition but she put it 5,000 likes and I saw that I'm like what is this doing everybody's going to be like one of the triggers this is 3 years back or something suddenly we're like hey we need to have an employee we need a day one eight okay so I mean so one way to say that okay we are learning from the best but that was like a eye opener till date I don't know whether that was maybe that was organic but I know what's not organic people joining and next day the LinkedIn profile picture the title the horizontal part of the asset it's all company branding like that seems like a mandated thing which is the part I think which will be fake is what I'm talking about you're right normal talking speaking may not I think

11:42 my question was when I shared the contradicting perspective right when you would be hiring for your company or when you for for your own employees at this point would you encourage them to do personal branding or would you discourage them from doing it or would you hire somebody who's who has a you know good social presence or would you say that no post huge huge plus for me personally not well at all I don't know about how you look at it I so we have again we have four expected behaviors right bias for action ownership mindset customer first and hire and develop the best Effectively what we looking for is high agency people who feel very passionately about the company. So as long as there's authenticity in what they're doing on social media, there's no reason to not look at that

12:30 candidation, right? But in the end we are a very functional org where you need to solve for that function. Let's say you are supposed to be doing quick commerce key account management, right? Uh the post I would love to see is I have worked with like I had a lovely meeting with the Zeppto cat today and coffee. Then it shows that you can do your job well because you are clearly showcasing your relationship and your strength which is a validation of how good you could be. I think there are two ways of personal branding. personal branding that you use for your company's benefit and what personal branding that you are talking about is for their own upskilling benefit that will ultimately sort of maybe you know help if Shantanu asks with it to be like upskill himself do his own this thing that will

13:16 ultimately help uh the company but can I ask a question then yeah sorry just to how does one upskill by building a personal brand I'm just intrigued to no I'm just saying that if he just motivates him to sort of do his own thing build his own brand or whatever he wants to ruin his questioning. In my view, the best leaders in consumer companies tomorrow are the ones who can tell the best stories. Correct. And the only way you can learn to tell a great story is by practicing storytelling over and over. Brilliant point. Brilliant. Fair point. And I think if you're going to build a personal brand that muscle is going to get built as a upskilling happen when you do it on that some people will really take it. There will be some others who will be like

14:02 when 10 other like one thing about your organization actually there are so many people in the leadership especially so they talk about what they and what they are working on what line they worked on to launch it like this seem like they're very passionate about it so that's pretty and so for example for examp posts will be about something totally like their their worldviews their strategy But that personality is getting getting built and it's all adding to that one in six post that is about let's say Bombers shaving company or that skill and then they do it to their teams. I also tell you what I think there are second order effects to this in my company when I put up a LinkedIn post about let's say a supplier or a vendor that supplier's loyalty to the

14:47 organization goes up 10x for 2 years I can delay a payment request you're acknowledging the importance of that person in your business. The question that like the better question is is a person I don't think personal brands are as important as storytelling that's what you're saying to no personal brand is a very unique storytelling endeavor there is storytelling endeavor which we do for our brands which could be either through podcast let's think about employees founders founders by design are forced to become storytellers because otherwise you fail that is a very much needed skill set but because these are young individuals asking personal brand Would you advise them and say correct? But there's a difference

15:33 between output and outcome. Personal brand is an outcome. Storytelling is an output. Correct. Correct. Right. I feel like when when I'm recruiting someone, I would love for them to have shown the storytelling appetite to build their own personal brand. Like you have 75,000 followers on LinkedIn. That's you're filling up an Eden Gardens. Yeah. Listening to what you're saying. It's it looks like one small number on a profile, but it's a it's a large number of people who you're getting eyeballs for, right? It shows that there is thought leadership of some kind and it signals in in a unique way. At a second order level, I feel like that skill could be useful for the organization. But for me, I start feeling that if the organization is then playing a role in a

16:19 primary objective that is building your own personal brand, then it becomes a little bit complicated. I actually was scrolling my Instagram yesterday and I came across a page with some 490K followers. Okay, about and this guy, he's not mentioned which company he works for, but I could identify him because he's all over my LinkedIn every single day. And he has some 500k followers now. He talks about beverages and he just talks about beverages and I could identify him from there. There is no mention about the company he works for. There's no mention about what he does professionally. But I could identify and I could relate that if he has a life outside of his work after being at a very high position in a particular company that means the company is doing something right that it gives him a chance to sort of you know uh have his own life build his own brand build something that he's very

17:04 passionate about that is beverages and he has this very beautifully curated content pieces and that's when you know okay maybe the company is doing something right and and is it a beverage company? No it's not a beverage company should I take the name? No, it's Zeppto's chief brand officer. I think Chandan very active and I didn't know that he had his own personal page and it's so beautifully curated. You all should go and check it out. And that's when I okay maybe Zeppto's culture is good. I mean I don't know how Zeppto's culture is but just from viewing that page. I'm like if he's able to do so much after being the chief brand officer probably he has a good work life balance. Would you feel the same way if he if he were like a biker and would go to Lelay Laadak and have 500 followers? Yeah. No, no. You're asking that would you do it if he did it took off from work to do it? Is that what would it reflect on Zeppto in your

17:49 mind? I would think if he has the kind of uh time to do it, if he has the kind of if he has um I mean how do I put it? In the weekends or we don't know when he's doing but that's again the same thing which I said you know the person who was told that you know why are you so active? He's like you're not putting enough. I I wanted to respond to that. See I I think for the three of us at least we are already we have the buses sailed for us because if I am creating a post long post on LinkedIn I cannot hold it against anybody in my company who post you on LinkedIn how can I judge you so similarly right so and I think that can breed good culture because then you see that okay people are talking about it and if I see a candidate who's very active or who has posts you know okay

18:36 what I sometimes do is go check who's commented and sometimes in the comments when people from the organization she's leaving saying that hey you know it's your last day wish you the best and all that that's massive validation for me if a person's leaving and somebody from her organization is saying hey good luck with your new venture look at the amount of goodwill the person is has in the existing organization so I'm I'm all for it so do you recruit looking at postal grants you plus or minus or it's not actually for me recruitment is all about I I think there's too much noise on social media I think it's very dangerous to try and build a personal brand because you're becoming slaves to the algorithm. I'll tell you what because the answer to building a personal brand, the validation that you want is followers.

19:22 Like he said, 75,000 followers. Great. Exactly. She knows how to get followers. That algorithm will change 6 months later. Yeah. And because she's got that gratification of I have 75,000 and Shantra said wow if I get 200,000 then Shantra will be like wow wow so let me get to 200. Yeah, this quest right is not going to help you actually do anything else because in my view your real life and your real life may the they'll start in fact to an extent where your real life will start mirroring a little bit of the real life because you've just

20:07 craving that right definitely So honestly we've never looked at it as a asset. Uh but we do what is validation which is as close to a personal brand which is we are very very strong believers in ref checks and three blind refs three known ref checks. So we also tell for example the candidate that you tell us check right and a lot of people say because they'll say we don't check for that. Oh, right. It's good. In fact, it's a very good thing if for example, she's applied and she's told you take a ref from her and she said, "Boss, this is a great role. I really want to fight for it." That's a good thing. That means I know that she's excited about the role. Right? So, I

20:52 will ask more critically, right? So, you have to understand the real person who you will spend 8 to 10 hours with every day. And at least for startups, it's almost like war. We are in the trenches every day for 10 hours. I need someone who has my back. So I need to really know the person. I don't think social media allows me to know the person. I'm seeing increasingly large distances between what I see on social media and what I see as so. So I think you said there's a it merges right? You start living your real life. My only point here is that if you are looking at as a timeline and a deadline and that is what you're doing this for then I agree it's very stressful and you lose all track of priorities

21:39 sometimes you the why is not a number like I started till 2020 I was absent on LinkedIn I'm like I had very few people to talk to during so that's when I actually started and I used to look at you moit and the others posting I'm like so that got me like oh I feel nice sharing some thought about what's happening in the journey. So for me I mean the zero to 100 or more 50 very very different like in same number of followers it doesn't bother me core thing is building the business and you see this as a conduit when the question when a young person asks me that is building important they feel better that is in my view where the

22:24 question that's my understanding of the question which I feel is unfortunately at least I'm in a camp where if you try to build a personal brand there is no end there is never an end yeah I will seem to never end bizarre in the end the way these platforms are designed that have brought this personal see personal brands always existed if you think about it what I said about a ref check has existed for 25 years so when someone wanted to put money in my business they would call up the 20 people in the last 10 years and say how is Raanta as a guy right and they heard very different things. So I actually checked at least give me feedback and they said the most common feedback was

23:11 very difficult to manage as an employee right um right luckily from a venture capital perspective they were like in our archetype this is okay right because we have to give money and trust the founder/ CEO to figure it out so the question they would ask is he coachable Yeah, like at least would he, you know, give it a fair hearing? He may still do what comes to his mind, but at least will he sit on the table? Yes, that will happen. But don't expect that you'll get through to him, right? Um, which is reality, correct? Now, that's also a personal brand if you think about it, right? But there's a lot of raw authenticity in

23:57 these deep conversations happening in private. Yeah. where I didn't even know that I had to behave a certain way for me to get this personal brand let's say 15 years later whereas when you are trying to solve for an algorithm in the end my I I mean it may seem like a little meta view but I really believe that because you're solving every day reach engagement you will start doing a little bit of things that will solve for that instant gratification you do hook steps [Laughter] which you made a statement in the beginning that there's there the charm has lost and but there's an effort to be authentic. I actually thought that's an oxymoron. There's no effort to be

24:42 authentic. If you speak your mind, it has to be effortless. If I have to make an effort to present myself a certain way, to speak a certain way, then I'm not authentic. Yeah. The effort isn't putting yourself the kind of effort. There should be no effort. If you switch on a camera and I'm just talking, that's how it should be. No, but the effort is okay. I show up and you showed up in time 4 hours of your day today to come on this podcast. That's what that I like as a founder or as a person. But I think I think that's maybe this is very important for you guys to understand. I am only making that effort because Shantan is a dear friend and I said Raymond please you have to do this. I would never do it otherwise. Yeah. So I'm not trying to build a personal brand. I'm just coming here doing my friend a favor. Yeah, that

25:28 was going to be my next question. Or somebody like Nikil Kamat who's I mean zeroda is like very big now. He does not have to be on a podcast sit with 10 people and discuss things. He's done what he had to do and it's huge now but he's doing it. So do you think somewhere now the founders are uh looking at platforms like say maybe hosting podcasts or coming and talking to people because they want to use their mass appeal or their platforms to something meaningful or is it still to make money to stay relevant and whatever what I think I think it's soft power because you've you've had a wide area of influences within a certain audience segment. How do you expand your vote bank? Let's say let's say 15 years from now Kamat runs for prime minister. Let's say okay how do you expand your reach to

26:14 cut across and find new vehicles right so I'm sure if Shantra was only selling razors and trimmers you would have so many women who would even react to so many nuggets that you share right so true react that is that is true because I'll tell you don't take offense okay the first time I heard about uh the company and I took notice of the company was when we were sitting in college discussing how they've asked a bald guy to talk about a company that talks about like shaving and whatever. That was the hook and that is what got us hooked because he put himself out there. That was offensive. What's coming? What's coming? You know what I want to say? So that was that was how you you know for women you are like

26:59 not a good role model. Yeah. Women shouldn't smoke. I've done a lot of stuff that I've done. But so from what you said about expanding the audience that he expanded the audience for example when I see Mumbai Indians okay I see Mumbai this is like something which my dad explained I see Mumbai Indians that they when they play the cricket matches they have the owner's box right you'll see Miss Nam man you'll see MKkesh Abani you'll see the children and you'll see Sachin and the wealth delta between any of the Amari and Sachin is multiffold right but the pull that Mr. that Tendulkar has is like far more than all of them combined. Okay. And that pool you cannot quantify in any way but there is a brand there and I think different people at

27:44 different times in their life pursued different purs like things like money is a natural thing which all of us pursue. We pursue jobs, companies, valuation, all of that stuff, right? At some point maybe when you reach our age I think for us bragging rights between each of us is probably not valuations anymore. Yeah, it's possibly health and between the both of them maybe children right how are my children doing what's my relationship with my son etc etc right at some point it becomes about uh you know about legacy and what impact you have on the world and how much influence you have and so on I think that's where some of this personal brand actually starts taking real fruit I think initially maybe sure I think it's the new way of making a CV I feel and it's got some delta but if you Keep doing it

28:31 like everything in the world it compounds in my view. Yeah. You keep doing it over a period of time then I think the legacy building that you will do if you've done it authentically he's right if you do it authentically you do it with a view like I love how Venita has kind of built it not with a view to build a personal life but because she's been authentic through it all. Exactly. And hence it's effortless to do in that way. Yeah. Ai and Rautami, thank you so much for being generous, candid, uh super sharp and for challenging Rayant and and Koshik and building on their points as well. Koshik, Raven, you know, kind of big fans uh for showing me the mirror like you always do and Koshik for for for you know, kind of representing your institution and and you know, bringing your thoughts to the table. Thank you guys so much. It's been a fantastic episode. Thank you. Pleasure. Pleasure.