Why the Rich Think Differently: Millionaire Mindset & Wealth Secrets - Kunal Shah |FO389 Raj Shamani

0:00 You feel successful people don't gossip. >> Successful people actually are extraordinary at keeping secrets. They gossip to know information. You will never see a wealthy person who's terrible at keeping secrets. The moment second third generation who's not good at keeping secrets the wealth will go away. Were you good at keeping secrets from childhood? I was good at keeping people's trust. Tweet that you did. Fastest way to be called stupid in life is to have an opinion about power or politics. Why? You will notice that people who talk a lot about politics are usually powerless in life. What is your fear today? >> Fear of the poor. Nobody really wants to hang around with poor people. >> You've also said somewhere most Indians settle for average career. >> What's the truth about discipline and ambitious? Because a lot of people think they're ambitious.

0:45 >> Most ambitious people will never say they're ambitious. They are just doing stuff, building stuff. They don't write all these tag words on their Twitter or Instagram or LinkedIn. There are many people who are famous for being cringe. You won't respect them. Do you have any insecurity? At times, even when you're doing everything right, something still goes wrong. Like you are all ready for a shoot, but you realize you forgot the mic. Or a teammate needs a document, but there's no one free to go drop it. These problems slow you down. That's why I use Porto. It helps me save time and effort by offering ondemand two-wheer and truck delivery services for all small and big

1:30 things as per my needs. Their instant pickup and reliable deliveries not only reduce effort but also bring peace of mind. And it doesn't matter if you're a freelancer, a startup or an established company. Pis delivery and our today's guest Kunal Sha founder of cred also agrees with this way of thinking. He doesn't just spot problems before other people. He questions why they exist and how he can fix them. In today's episode, he talks about what is his biggest fear right now. What is he chasing? Fame, power, or money? Can someone build ambition like a skill? Why are we not acceptable of failure as a society? How can a person go from being mediocre to

2:15 earning a place with an A+ crowd? And why is being a trustworthy person a huge part of success? Watch this episode till the end and tell me in the comments what did you learn from this conversation. Like my first big podcast I was just telling my team. >> Oh is that true? >> First I've done 50 60 episodes. >> Yours was the first and I did it >> and I remember the first line and we put it out in podcast as well. View podcast start. I'm nervous >> and you tell me. >> You remember it was incredible. I I do remember >> but like it's it's like kudos to you

3:01 man. It is not uh it is absolutely elite athlete level achievement what you've done. Pretty cool man. >> Thank you. It means a lot. >> No no it is it is it is what is this like credit where it's due man. This is this is extraordinary work. >> Thank you so much. >> And and I can tell you it may look easy from outside. I know. Uh it has must have been a nightmare getting to this place. How old are you now? >> I'm 28. >> That's even more commendable, man. Good stuff. >> Thank you. Done. I'm actually happy. I was nervous. I'm a fan more than and more than the kunala. The person I'm fan of kunal sha the person who tweets born and brought up. I'm actually born uh in Ahmedabad. My mom's from here but

3:48 I've always been here. So my I was like raised >> Bangalore. Bombay. >> No Bombay only. >> Okay. >> Bangalore is only less Indian. >> Yeah. It's just that I never got like good at it. >> Okay. >> Uh I can speak uh it's not that I can't speak Hindi but I know that I will struggle with words. >> You think in English? >> That's a good question. I don't know what language I think in >> but you read and consume everything in English. >> H no I I do consume in multiple languages. It's just that I don't know what language do I think in become a I think it's become a mixture now. Okay.

4:34 >> Is it work? I don't know. I [ __ ] maybe I don't I don't have conversations with myself when I'm thinking. Okay. >> I'm usually just as a triggers then I go externally. That's a good question. Wow. Maybe I've stopped. Wow. I'm trying to think on which language I'm thinking. I'm not able to. I think it's reached into some kind of a like languageless thinking approach now. It's just more of like triggers and >> I think it's multiple languages. >> Okay. >> Multiple things together. >> Yeah. It's like a full ADHD brain. So it's a little

5:21 >> Okay. Try to break it down for me. For example, let's say behavior, human behavior, all of these things, right? So you said you get triggers and it triggers something in you like okay what goes on so I think uh step by step actually opinion comes after thinking about for probably months and years. Uh I don't think observe and I get an opinion. I usually I'm observing observing observing observing and pattern and then I see the pattern being a larger pattern about something and then

6:07 I try to capture it in one sentence so that I can register it as a pattern. >> Right? So example um I I observed historically shameful method is to convert that into pride. >> Okay. Cigarettes used to be back in the day something as a shameful behavior. So they showed mal broman this that pride all of that and then converted that into normalized behavior. Right? If you see uh the the the recent times where we now

6:53 accepted homosexuality as uh a thing, it went through a moment of first being proud about it, right? And like if you see the the pride parades or whatever are are a method. So you'll notice that anything about human beings that was historically shameful or treated shamefully converted into pride and then became normal. >> So it's an interesting thing that how is this pattern repeats again and again and again. So I always observe these things and say yeah and then I see if it's true. So what I do is then I try to find more examples and now with chat GP I could actually get 10 examples of it and then you're like oh wow like this is again and again

7:40 and again repeating so what I try to do is find observations see if it's widespread and then capture the essence key >> see because you're talking about observation and shame M >> one thing which is very shameful today is failure. >> When you fail in public >> okay >> and that probably is something that we need to because I was reading bunch of your tweets >> that is something that we need to get over in order to try more or maybe succeed as a society in a better way. >> Right? >> How do you think that will happen first? Actually why do you think failure is seen as a shameful event in our country? See the thing is the uh

8:28 first of all let's just understand how we are raised. Uh there is this perpetual fear. Everybody is living in some version of fear. Society fear exam fear and and we also raise kids through fear. Okay, if you do not do this, this will happen. Nobody will respect you. All of that stuff, right? So when your default state is fear, failure is the dreaded, right? Uh and that causes the society to feel safe in

9:16 some ways, right? But it makes it is very common in the emotional societies. For example, India was completely apathy or complete panic. >> Right? You will notice one more thing that Indians when they rate an app they will do one star or five star two three four star right because that's an emotional response. YouTube used to be have earlier different ratings if you remember then it moved to up thumbs up and thumbs down. Yeah, >> right. Cuz that's how emotional reactions are, right? I and that's like, oh, I'm a fan and then if they don't do well, oh, we'll hate, >> right? And and therefore I I often say that we like to create gods out of

10:03 people and then do vis of them, right? And that's how we feel okay about things, right? >> So I think what happens is failure part, right? comes from what do we celebrate? Right? Uh now risky behavior historically resulted in you being left out in the society and the society had no way to bring you up or whatever and you would be like treated as somebody who has bad judgment. risk simple simple for example let's say our movement as a society from saving account to fixed deposits to investing in mutual funds to investing in stocks is a journey >> right >> and you will see that different communities in different societies for example business families had a very different relationship with money

10:51 >> because risk was innate to you notice that they were the earliest to adopt the riskier part of life >> true >> right >> but when you see younger people they are now adopting riskier faster because their household is safe. For example, you did not have to think about fair. >> So your failure ability or your risk appetite changed materially. the next generation will be significantly much more attuned to failure because the failure doesn't mean like I have had stages of life where I did not have money to eat right and you are literally I would go I remember like buying chana on credit chana singh on credit >> right so that has a very different

11:36 tolerance sometimes losing everything also makes you very good at failure Right. If you notice somebody that because it's so close to zero. Yeah. >> So you will see that people who have less money are doing more riskier behavior >> right like for example people who are getting caught in investment scams this that they're like okay small money. M >> so I think failure comes in a mixed thing but culturally we are a collectivist society collective society simp >> right when we were you would remember that your grandparents would tell you

12:22 that and we used to wear the same shirt right but now imagine trying to tell three cousins you're going to wear the same clothes it's not okay they have become individuals now right so as we move from let's say a non-indiv individualistic society to individualistic we will get to more failure understanding choices and so on and so forth but there's another thing that is happening which is preventing failure again >> is people fearing their social media followers >> right that let's say you are a young person and you have like managed to get 2,000 followers in your head you're already a celebrity Raj you will remember when you had 50,000 followers and you would get 40

13:09 likes, your reaction would be the same as today at millions of followers, right? The the threshold has changed. >> Yeah. >> Right. But unfortunately, we get shaped by our audience, which is a problematic loop. Right? For example, >> when I tweet, I am not thinking about likes because if I was thinking about likes, I know exactly how to get them. I can say emotions capture you'll get consistently but I write for myself >> right so you will see from a 50 likes to a 50,000 likes coming together it's not consistent because I don't care about the audience but what you'll notice is that eventually everybody starts caring and if you're a young person you start

13:55 thinking about the 2,000 followers and what will they like what will they judge me for what are they going to think about me? And then your personality starts getting shaped through the views of these 2,000 people that you would otherwise not care about. So that's becoming a problematic loop for >> it's a very big trap because everybody is like trying so hard to differentiate now right when I was growing up social media pre- internet when I was in college in my first year second year internet has not become big yet like a group of 10 you could be different in that right jeans right difference. >> But now when you are being trying to be

14:44 different with 2,000 followers, you have to find different way to be aesthetic. You have to find a different way to be cool. Travel to unique places that nobody has been to. Capture the same thing differently, right? Go to some music festival, but take a very different clip of that music festival so that you feel cool. or you are closer to the stage or not closer to the stage to to signal that okay I'm in the more important place or not right uh uh capturing unique food >> so that you feel that I try different things and so on and so forth so this deep need to differentiate is frying people's brain >> right >> right like for example you are going and getting Vijay Malia on the podcast is your breaking out of differentiation

15:29 right it's a it's a thing that is needed Because how would people find that? Okay. What is the thing difference that you bring to the table? >> Why do you think it's a bad thing? >> It's not a bad thing. It it's just very taxing. It's not bad thing. I'm just saying first of all, one thing we should avoid Raj is that categorizing things in good and bad. >> It's the simplest form of doing this this we should never do that. >> Okay. >> Uh there is no no such thing as good and bad. Everything has lots of nuance. Let's say if you have the capability to differentiate, by all means do it, right? But if you do not have the capability and you're trying very hard, it is very mentally taxing. But don't you think if you keep trying to do that, maybe you'll find a differentiator and that will act as a proof for you in one

16:15 area of life which will help you in other areas of life as well. >> Yes and no. uh eventually what you will realize is that 99.9% of humans have non- differentiated but they are now being told by all these people that you have to be different right and therefore we capture try to capture every trend and say okay I'm going to be this and if you look at fashion cycles used to earlier take multiple years to get outdated now they get outdated very quickly right and and what we call as fast fashion is nothing Oh, somebody wore this. Now it's everybody doing it. Now it's gone in months. In weeks. >> Yeah. >> You you saw the whole labubu hype kind of go and crash >> in weeks. When I was growing up, some of these

17:02 trends would last for a decade before it disappears. So we are hyperconnected. >> So the cycles are moving very fast and that is very hard for a lot of people to keep up. people like feel brain fried that like how do I keep up to this thing? So a lot of people choose to not showcase themselves at all. They become observers >> because they just accept that I can't keep up. Right. I'm I'm sure you feel overwhelmed that this is like like I saw in your office you put numbers of all these things that you want to achieve and it's hard. >> It's hard. It's not easy to constantly keep breaking out and doing stuff. Obviously you have to be driven differently to do this but not everybody is driven differently. What I'm saying is that that comparison right that oh I

17:49 will never be this scale I will never be that right for example when I used to do my version of cred curious I never cared about views I was very curious >> earlier I used to do this privately for my team then my team is like let's make it public and it became popular but I didn't care about the views because I was genuinely doing it from my own thing but the moment you start thinking about those metrics versus own curiosity things change right because now you know exactly what if you lose yourself in this what if you realize that learning now I'm getting whatever will get me applause

18:34 right when a great actor starts doing stuff that will get gags and laughs from people >> because it gets views it gets me >> eventually they feel that void that I've stopped being a great actor. >> So like this is called the panding to the audience like you eventually getting to a place where oh my god this is who I've become. >> Yeah you know I'll talk about me a little bit and then we'll go back to the fear conversation. So what has really helped us is us not bothering about views during the conversation. perfect like that and I can tell you by far every member in the team we know this when we prepare for a podcast when we choose the guest and

19:21 when we do the podcast we give zero views >> we're like okay sometimes we prepare 500 things and we end up talking about none because we're just curious and we are in the conversation want to learn >> that has really helped us >> that's good >> so that the only objective is can we learn and understand something out of this. >> Oh, that's perfect. As long as you do this consistently like till now in every conversation we've done this what we do is once the conversation is out >> like once this is done like this job is done >> then we try to think okay now how do we make best out of whatever we've gotten >> the process of views doesn't start before we've shot the podcast >> perfect that's actually quite cool uh I

20:08 think one topic to touch upon on fear is uh best People convert fear into curiosity. >> What do you mean? Explain. >> See, everybody has fear. >> Guaranteed. >> Agreed. >> Some people have a very different reaction to fear. Most people have a reaction, shut down, go in shell, not act. Small percent of people convert their fear into curiosity. >> Right? Let's say people who do adventure sport, are they not fearful? They absolutely are. >> But there is this curiosity that takes over. They convert that fear into this weird curiosity. Yeah.

20:54 >> And it appeals to them. That risk, that curiosity appeals to them so much and they continue to do well. Right. Right. And uh that actually allows them to propel forward in life. All right. So converting fear to curiosity where where you're like, "Oh my god, let me see." Like there is this weird thing that attracts you, risk attracts you, right? Uh like a lot of people like talk about Elon Musk and say that he has no ability to process risk. And it's probably true. the kind of stuff that he constantly does, you're like, I can't believe that the guy is doing this, right? But there is this natural attraction to risk with

21:41 judgment, right? See, if you're just attracted to risk, you can also be called a gambler. But the moment you combine the judgment ability with risk tolerance or risk attraction, you will see those guys do well. >> True. Do you al don't you feel most people who are successful quote and go in different different ways don't you feel they are more driven out of fear of inefficiency or fear of uh fear of not being at a place where they come from or where they are today. So it's mostly the fear which is driving them to change. So in some cases fear is

22:26 actually really helping people to move forward not in terms of attraction or curiosity but just in feel of I don't want to be suffocated by staying in that one place. >> I think uh it's not always fear they are escaping they are just escaping. So there are different things people escape. >> Okay? Right? People are escaping their trauma, people are escaping their circumstances, people are escaping their fear, people are escaping their identity, people are escaping their country, people are escaping their society, people are escaping their relationships. Escaping drives people, right? Uh fear is just one of them. But you will notice one

23:14 thing that uh most successful people are some version of OCD. They are repeating this pattern again and again and again and again and again without any drive coming from outside. >> Yeah. >> Right. They are self fueling mechanism. They don't need motivational speakers by the way. >> True. >> Right. You will never see driven people driven by motivational speakers. Right. So almost a reverse trend. People who need motivational speakers are unlikely to be driven, right? Uh and and which is if you think about it is a business-breaking line to make. But the thing is that people who are escaping something, they don't have time for motivational speakers. >> They just want to just be at it at it. At it at it, at it. Imagine the best

24:00 athlete. Imagine imagine the best entrepreneur. They're just at it. They're escaping. They're escaping their their they they're escaping their irre relevance. They're escaping their current state. They are feeling inadequate. Right? I have met many many successful people. Everybody is like achieve life >> like [ __ ] like I have done nothing. I have become irrelevant. I have done this. I have not understand this. I I have no understanding of AI. I'm this and that. They are just like driven in a very weird manner. >> Yeah. >> Right. And they're always escaping something, escaping their status quo mostly, right? And what drives them is the OCD, which is obsessive compulsive disorder almost, right? And now we say

24:47 these words in form of disease and and illnesses. Uh uh but the thing is it's a state. >> Yeah. Right. If you see ever and I would I would encourage like a lot of people to find a way to observe an elite athlete training like you will see something very different, right? What have you observed >> for example their consistency to do something for 3 4 8 hours a day which is physically taxing right and there is nobody is no nobody's enjoying that nobody's enjoying that >> you can see but that drive to just be at it at it at it and almost that they can't live without that don't you think that's fear of not being able to live up to potential or maybe fear of being average

25:32 >> it's not always fear some people driven through their trauma. >> There is no fear. They're just traumatized and they want to escape that trauma. They want to escape that feeling of being alone sometimes. Sometimes people are workaholic because if they left alone to themselves, they'll be fearful about meeting themselves. >> Yeah. >> Right. So you have to understand that these things are driven from multiple places. Uh uh sometimes you're also in the company of driven people and that drives you. >> Right? uh we are we are always the average of five people we spend time with. >> You believe by >> absolutely believe it right and therefore a lot of people who are growing find it hard to keep the same friends now that's a problematic line for most

26:17 Indians >> and we are very fearful of that line. >> Yeah. >> But that is likely to happen. Why do you think we are fearful that when >> because we are a collectivist society that like we have to meet everybody's expectation. See back before social media >> it was impossible to keep up with all the friends. You move to a different city >> somewhere else. You move to a different country something else this now with social media like you are connected to everyone sub happy birthday right earlier it was impossible to do. We would evolve into the circles we were spending time with. >> Yeah. >> But social media has this weird thing of

27:04 keeping us grounded to the same realities. >> But it's hard to keep up because you only have 24 hours. >> M, >> right? >> Do people tell you >> what that you have changed or you have grown or you have >> I'm sure they do. But I have a very selective filter on what I hear in life. Uh >> uh because for me I'm always going to be there for people who need me. M >> but my time is something that I protect because that's the currency you and I or anybody else has very less of right often sometimes it's easier to help somebody need something but giving time consistently right I think we have to be all in environments which is constantly growing us

27:50 >> right uh for example the reason I am not in favor of work from home which is a very problematic topic is all the growth happens in the company of people you keep not about working somewhere if you work from home and you chose to be around five really smart people at your home who are working along with you I'm all for work from home where you will discuss something at lunch discuss something at dinner discuss something while playing a game with them uh and you're constantly making each other better then by all means work from home. >> M >> but if you are going to be in a place where I'm avoiding commute, I'm avoiding

28:36 this rent. You've made a terrible decision for your life because remember all the times we learned was in the company of great people, right? And you're like, "Oh my god." Then we reflect on what these guys said or she said something so interesting or he said something so interesting and I'm like, "Wow." Like it hit me. >> Yeah. >> Right. And that becomes your system. >> True. >> But now I don't know uh you spend more time with reals and shots uh than really good people >> and therefore now you meet almost everyone they are like the last 10 reels that they have watched. like that's their average personality right now.

29:25 That is not good because if you ask them there's no substance. >> Yeah, that is so true. That is so so true. You know, you tweeted something about it. You said mediocre people often have a clear tell. You'll often see them hanging out with other mediocre people probably because the A+ folks avoid them. Now when you said that most of the people are average of the five people they hang out with and if you come from a mediocre background and you are a mediocre person in how do you break out of this? How do you go to the A+ category because A+ folks are avoiding them? >> Yeah. First of all A+ folks feel they're mediocre. >> I don't think if the mediocre people

30:12 feel they are mediocre. That's number one. Number two is it's a relative term right there is no categorization plus a mediocre right it's a spectrum like and we all know yeah >> there's ranking system that exists on human beings for example uh if we have to rank kunal and raj on understanding of content you would be like miles ahead of me right on on some topics I would be miles ahead of you and that's what humans are right for example if both of us have to think about who's the best person to understand ours maybe it's not us it's a friend of ours who's very very good at it and they are miles ahead so there's a spectrum in each of these things but anybody who's excellent at anything is not accidentally excellent

30:57 at anything >> nobody's gifted to be oh I am good at cars or I'm good at content >> right it happens because they are obsessive about this and get there right now if you're in a company of people who obsess about anything, you learn something from them. >> True. >> You meet a musician, you meet an athlete, you you meet a startup entrepreneur, you meet somebody who's building great content the way you're doing and you'll always learn, right? And is that the relationship? What I'm saying is that if a relationship is not teaching you something but are only validating you, then growth is limited. H >> how do you find these people who teach us

31:44 >> they always exist uh I think people who make us uncomfortable are a good set >> that's a good >> right because if you think they are right but it offends you that's the exact person to spend time with >> but what we do is we judge the tone of their feedback I don't judge tone of feedback of anyone anybody who mocks me or takes a shot at me or whatever and if they have some good lesson I I will only remember the lesson. I will not remember what the tone was and I will not even remember who the person was. But people have so I often say this but I'll repeat it like people have substance and their own perception about themselves. It's easiest to offend people. >> Yeah.

32:29 >> Right. But this gap exists only when you have not improved this part right uh for for example uh if you told me that kunal you are so old right yeah I am older to you so it's a fact how can I be offended by that but a lot of people get offended by these words right I often say that oh kunal so if somebody calls you overweight but that's a act on all mathematical ways at the right answer but if I am like cancel so I think we have reached a point where

33:18 we have taken so much pride in being offended the good news is you put content out there of being offended you get too many likes >> so you think it's a great quality to have so you see so many people on social media are per perpetually putting their outrage out there of being offended >> because multiple people like I also agree with this and then they want to be part of that tribe. >> Yeah. >> But the really good people or people who are growing people or compounding people have no time to mock someone or be offended by someone. They're too busy achieving what they

34:03 need to achieve. >> They don't care. >> Right? Like I often say that if you bark back at a dog, are you a dog? >> It's as simple as that. >> You've you tweeted something on this. >> All mockery is accepting lower status. H >> Yeah, it's it's funny, right? But we will never mock somebody who's lower status than us. Imagine you are meeting with friends and you are mocking your staff who drives you. Have you ever seen that behavior? But we all get together and mock our bosses,

34:49 mock politicians, mock somebody because it allows people to create a tribe. But that's a very cheap way to build bonds. >> But most people do that and they cherish it. Why? >> But most people are also not successful. No, >> you feel successful people don't gossip. >> They they gossip for a very different intent. They gossip to know information. >> Interesting. >> Or improve their intelligence about something. >> It's not their need. >> Yeah. >> Successful people actually are extraordinary at keeping secrets. You will never see a wealthy person who's terrible at keeping secrets. >> Agreed.

35:35 >> You will say transfer. They become the hoarder of asymmetric insights and therefore you create trust with them. Think about all your friends that you say. You can't trust them. They might be fun, entertaining to go out with, >> but you would not share very intimate information with them that can be damaging to you. >> Yeah, >> that is so true. You share certain insights with people who you trust and who can keep secrets and they're often the people who are at the higher status than you or maybe in the group >> or are likely to be more successful in the future as well. >> Likely to be more. ucing people who are

36:20 able to keep secrets at a young age. >> See uh >> are likely to be more successful in future. >> So let's just let's just break the all the people who are very successful or wealthy at least >> are going to be somebody who are extraordinary at keeping secrets. Right? Which means they don't feel the need. Yeah. Right. Most people the way they remain interesting is to gossip. M >> content and they have to tell people about it and that's how they remain interesting right some people you share something with them you know >> they hold it now I'm not saying that this cohort is likely to become successful because there are other factors that come into

37:07 being successful but you will rarely see somebody who's successful who doesn't have this trait okay no fair so all wealthy people are good secret keepers That's what you're saying. So it's like a first level. First first >> in fact what you will see is that the moment second third generation who's not good at keeping secrets the wealth will again go away. It's like wealth. Yeah. Wealth is like flows forward. >> Have you seen that? >> Yeah. You will see it. Observe it next time. >> Like the second third generation is not good at keeping secrets. The money will flow through them. >> Were you good at keeping secrets from childhood? I think I was good at keeping people's trust. >> Explain. >> Uh when people share secrets and they

37:53 can feel the trust that that was not going to be used against them, you become trustworthy. >> So it's not about secrets, it's about being more trustworthy. >> Yeah. >> Most wealthy people will always have a strong correlation of being trustworthy. Right? And I'm not saying they are generally trustworthy, but they are specifically trustworthy. For example, banks will trust them, investors will trust them, employees will trust them, right? So, uh I think I was always the person who people knew that the gossip would not move forward. I would never encourage it. I would never uh uh uh like I would treat this as a mark of respect that somebody shared something with me. >> Yeah.

38:38 >> It's a little bit like being a goldsmith. H that if people are storing gold with you then it's >> you have to be somebody that they can be trusted with. >> But what's the difference? Let's say you you told me you had this when you were pretty young. People of your age, people in your group might not have this trait. What was the difference? What do you think is different? >> I think it probably helps to be an introvert. Like you're not trying to be interesting. >> But a lot of people try to be interesting. I know >> that's one of the things that society rewards also. >> Exactly. But I'm saying that if that being interesting comes by being the superconductor of information, right? It's unlikely to be creating

39:24 respect. You'll be liked. >> Agreed. >> So I think the key metric is people are mostly trying to be liked, >> not respected. All social media has made likes happen. Respect. Why do you think people are people want to be liked more than they want to be respected? Because when you ask people, everybody will say they want to be respected, but their actions tell you otherwise. >> It's about how we shape the society, right? Uh respect is a long-term behavior, like is a short-term behavior, >> right? Can I do one thing and be respected? No. But I can make a nice joke and I can be liked by your entire office. >> Yeah. So the world is becoming more and more short-term

40:09 and less and less long-term. >> Why? >> Cuz the societyy's rewarding that right now. But every now and then the society corrects itself. >> Okay? >> Then we realize, oh [ __ ] we can't be short-term. We have to become long-term. Right? Imagine the human invention of monogamy, relationships, marriage came from realizing, oh my god, we can't be short-term. It's not good for society. Look at religion. Every religion only does one thing. Makes you not do short-term behavior and make you do long-term behavior across any religion. >> Yeah. >> Tribal religion to organized religion. Any country, any state.

40:55 Don't do short-term behavior. Do long-term behavior. >> So that's the core thing every human realizes. Okay. And how do you think religion got invented? Because they must have seen that humans are not doing well, right? For example, do not steal. >> Because it causes a cycle of retribution and destruction, violence, death, all of that stuff. So, do not steal is be more long-term. In fact, every human behavior that we consider as bad behavior is nothing but a short-term behavior. Now where does the short-term behavior come from? Right? We have two brains. The neoortex and amydala. Amigdala is the fight orflight animal brain as we

41:41 call it or the lizard brain >> which is designed for short-term. In fact, all the joyful stuff that we experience is coming from the short-term brain. >> Yeah. >> Right. Being long-term makes us successful, makes us wealthy, makes us wise, makes us achieve long-term success, makes us healthy, builds our muscle, builds our reputation. All of that comes from there. In fact, that is the brain that tells the short brain to behave. >> Yeah. >> Calm down. >> And it keeps getting strengthened the more and more you do it, >> practice it. But the thing is that the more we encourage the smaller brain to become the boss and therefore you'll see people who have not very long-term about things, they

42:29 are either very happy or very sad. >> Yeah. >> They have like extreme emotions, >> right? >> But people who are more neocortex oriented, they will say they're more balanced in both the situations. In fact, you will see that a lot of the uh stimulants or or or rather uh sedatives that we have are to suppress the neoortex. >> We are happier and giggly when we have alcohol, right? And that's exactly what it is to suspend the long-term mind. And therefore, we are likely to do more short-term behavior when we are drunk. or under some kind of a

43:16 >> influence uh influence. >> So overall society is rewarding this. How do we change it? >> It's very hard. Uh society will have to realize the mistakes of it. It takes decades sometimes and >> we'll realize oh my god what have we done then we become slightly more conservative about things. We become more long-term about things. >> When did you realize that you need to be long-term not short-term? uh I think uh when you see like for example when the family went through financial crisis and uh I realized which short-term behavior caused this for the whole family right uh you just start thinking that you need to do more something more long-term in nature right and what I realized that

44:02 what was long-term is skill reputation trust uh wisdom wisdom uh wealth, health uh and and just thinking more and more about these things, right? Uh mattered early on in life because I was never having the luxury. I have no I had no money to hang out with young friends and go for a party or being able to afford a trip. Like I didn't have the money for anything. Uh uh I probably must have taken a trip abroad for fun after many many many years. probably I was your age uh or slightly younger uh when I had done a lot of work to build first uh uh something and I

44:50 think that for example we were thrown from our houses to ach loan before I traveled abroad for a vacation but the younger generation is doing the exact opposite >> because they have the support of somebody's house that they know at least my parents house is there or I can go back to their house or whatever. I didn't have any of that. So, I think sometimes not having anything long-term forces you to become long-term. >> You said most of us who are driven, they're escaping something. Were you escaping something? >> Yeah. escaping fear of uh >> poor uh uh see when you're also poor when you suddenly become poor in your family you will start seeing everybody distancing from you

45:35 >> friends family nobody really wants to hang around with poor people uh especially if you have become poor through your own choices uh and like people try to keep you there but like you know that they don't like want to really hang with you. Yeah. And that drives you that okay you cannot be that right and you're escaping that in some ways but I think it becomes eventually the OCD that you want to continuously escape only right you're always thinking about I need to escape even more >> and further and further and further and it drives you >> so what is your fear today or what is escape what is escaping today >> I think my my fear always remains in that if I don't understand things

46:22 for me not understanding how things work and becoming better at things that I don't have an understanding of is what drives me. Fear of irrelevance that I what if I don't understand the younger generation, right? Like what if I don't see what they're doing and and understand their patterns for example? Uh how is AI going to shape our behaviors? I'm very very interested in that. Right? Uh because this is a norm. M >> we we not realize it but maybe a large majority of people already having some version of relationship with their AI. >> Yeah. >> And that shapes humans different. For example, let's say you are a male or female and

47:09 you have a more fulfilling relationship with your child. What if you find human relationships to be suboptimal? >> Highly possible. What will happen to human society then? Like if you don't think about these things, you're unlikely to do something about it or be aware of it before it happens. See, I'm if you reduce if you have the mindset of having less and less surprises about life, >> it'll require you to constantly be aware about things. But why is this need to understand this thing? Why is this need to predict or try to find a problem which is not there yet >> but might become a problem? What drives

47:55 you to actually relationship? >> I think what will you do with it? For example, can you build a business with it? Can you understand something? Can you create something? Uh for example, when we made our ads for the first time and they broke the standard format of how ads were done and credit ads became the standard of doing things, we realized that people were done with the same format of ads, right? And you had to do something that makes them come awake and notice >> and want to watch it without being interrupted >> and content versus ad that mindset. So you need to understand that the world is getting bored right for example I had written something multiple years ago

48:42 that people will find it very hard to watch movies because they addicted to short dopamine cycles now and I had tweeted like many years ago that we almost feel like a meditation >> to watch a movie now right and to predict that trend and say right so for example the new format of short drama is taking off right now it nothing Not people watching a movie with 25 breaks. If you ask an average person how many times did you pause to finish a Netflix movie? The answer may be 2530. >> So there anyway is watching a movie like a short series. >> Yeah. >> Right. To continuously watch without being distracted without being on your

49:28 phone for 2 hours is getting harder. Almost impossible. In fact, I'm worried how movies are going to do well now because people find it very very hard. In fact, I know that multiple OTTs are telling content creators that please make content that people can watch along with being on their phone. >> Yeah. >> So, how do we make money from this now? So, I see movies becoming grander >> then it affords for you to pay attention. So the movie budgets have to go crazier and you make a superhero movie and fantasy mythology movie and like you have to really raise the level. A regular story that used to be big hits before

50:14 >> unlikely to work now. >> So you love to understand these patterns and >> makes sense make sense of them >> and then make sense of them. So maybe it'll turn into an insight for you to build a business or it's just awareness about society and it gives you a oh I understood it >> I understood it is a bigger kick okay right but just understand but it's not that for example when we started our chat I was asking you about how you're doing things and not that I'm going to ever come and compete in the business but I have to understand >> how are you getting it right if you have managed to get from x amount of revenue to a thousandx of that revenue right now. What do people like? What do people

51:01 share? What causes a reaction? What makes people uh uh come back again and again? What kind of people come? I have to understand >> and I do that not for you. I will meet a musician and ask the same question. >> I would ask Rahul Dravid the same question when I've met him. What are the new athletes all about? Right. and and uh uh and I'm I'm I'm always asking on why people's world work the way they work. >> Yeah, I remember you asked me first time as wellm like all of these I remember that you do this. >> Do you think it's the primary trait or a fundamental trait for a lot of young people to become successful? >> No.

51:47 >> Asking questions? >> No. I I think uh understanding things is more important than asking questions. One method of understanding things is asking questions. >> Okay, >> there are other ways to do that. For example, now chat GPT is a much more efficient method to understand things and your medium of understanding things may be that >> but sometimes counter questioning for example there are different ways to use charg for example if I ask JPD that please rate me on 10 on the quality of questions I've asked you so far amongst all the people most likely it will tell you up to amazing >> but if I asked,

52:34 "Can you tell me what are the five ways I can ask better questions compared to the top 1% users on this platform? Help me identify the gaps." Much better answer. >> One is validation seeking. Second is feedback seeking, >> growth seeking. >> Growth seeking, blind spot seeking. It's extraordinary at blind spot seeking. For example, if you meet somebody uh for an interview and you convince them that I would like to record this interview for my own learning and recorded the whole thing and and ask the AI that what are the 10 things I sucked at? It

53:20 might tell you question. You have this anxiety to answer quickly which you will not observe in yourself. I believe every single person who should have an AI auditor of their behavior consistently. >> Wow. Imagine a coach. Imagine you have a 400 IQ tool in your pocket or grammar fix. >> How do you use it? Give me one example. >> No, this is one example. So what I what I do is I I put >> something that helped you something that gave you feedback and you fixed on it and you >> multiple things all the time. All the time observing my

54:06 interviews. I'll say did I do a good job of interviewing? >> Did I actually ask the right questions? Did I listen to the candidate or interrupted them too much? >> Job interview. >> Yeah. When I'm interviewing people, then uh I have asked uh to uh observe something that I have written as a strategy and say what are the things that I've not thought about. uh I have used it uh in manners where I've said that uh I am let's say I'm this MBTI I'm add can you convert this document for somebody who is this

54:52 MBTI and this add and make me readable for me amazing >> nice >> it makes it exciting for you to read the same document >> nice >> uh can I have done things where I would I have a hypothesis and put the hypothesis out there. For example, I'll tell you one recent example. >> I had a feeling that all the countries that had extreme weather became great at planning and people who do not have extreme weather are not good at planning because extreme weather forces you to have long-term thinking, right? countries. Then I noticed that it those countries

55:41 also have a very unique trait of not wearing wide range of colors. So people with extreme countries, extreme weather do not have very colorful color palette in their clothes. So when you go to countries let's say Russia you will see like only six shades but if you go to a place in Gujarat vibrant colors in their shirts and and then I I noticed that uh further that they are also le less likely to be emotionally expressive >> countries with extreme weather >> extreme weather and people who have less colors. And so I made this compound

56:26 hypothesis and put it out there in charge GPT. I said, >> can you rate this on 10 and tell me five ways this may be wrong? Then it helped me sharpen. This is looking like 8 on 10, two on. And then I made one more hypothesis that it also makes them more wealthier. So high per capita comes from countries who are better at planning. >> Interesting. >> But in the past per capita income was higher in countries which were more resourceful and had less extreme weather. So if you go back in history all the countries with less extreme weather

57:12 were more prosperous because that causes the agricultural yield to be better. And all the technological innovation and innovation which drives planning and efficiency came in countries with extreme weather >> long-term versus short-term. >> Mhm. And what I noticed is that many languages of countries with non-extreme weather does not have the word efficiency in their language. >> Give me an example. Which country? All the countries which are not extreme weather >> one example put it >> many Asian countries >> does not have word efficiency does not exist in their language

57:58 >> Hindi man >> and there's a human thing that we only act or feel a word when we know the word >> or it exists in our vocabulary. Very interesting. This is how you use chat GB. >> Yeah. >> Wow. I'm impressed. Like this is so cool. I'm going to do that. Pretty sorted. Okay. Coming back to the conversation of we were talking about short-term, long-term escapism, fear, right? I want to ask you is there because you're talking also about wealthy countries and weather extreme

58:44 countries and all of these combination. It's just a very basic question which is coming out of my head and it's like why do you think most people they work really really hard in whatever country they are still they remain poor? >> H it's a great question. Um uh I think um the frame to apply is what does your work solve? Right? If I'm a surgeon that is extraordinary doing bypass surgery,

59:31 I work for a few hours and I make a lot of money because the problem I solve is almost life and death. >> Yeah. With a very high chance of somebody dying. But let's say I did some work which does not solve a large problem. In fact, then it's unlikely to create more wealth. So what does it solve and what do people value at? For example, let's say both of us get together and build a company that's going to solve

1:00:16 um challenge in a healthy manner. We found a technology or a medication or some ayurdic medication just say you'll become very wealthy >> very very wealthy >> because it's a problem that people care a lot about. But let's say we build something that is by the way we'll become very wealthy but very hard problem. M Sometimes we'll have to give 15 20 years with no chance of success

1:01:02 to solve that problem >> to solve this problem and therefore it will not achieve anything. But let's say you are are doing a lot of hard work and I don't know uh providing um XYZ service that and you could be easily replaced. >> Nobody cares, right? you will not be able to make more money, >> right? Uh and therefore,

1:01:49 it's about what comes out of that achievement. For example, software engineering was very hard to learn and made a lot of money. A lot of people did software engineering because of that. But let's say if AI comes around and makes the tops of an engineer 10x more productive which means they don't need as many people that profession may not make the same amount of money but for some people >> it make them crazy amount of money. Same thing for doctors. Some doctors will become 10x >> using AI, >> right? So we have to think that way. Uh if hard work resulted in stuff, right? For example, let's say let's talk about your podcast, right?

1:02:34 >> A lot of people are doing it. >> Exactly. >> In fact, I I firmly believe there are more people building podcasts than listening to podcasts. Uh uh >> it's a joke that a long time. Yeah. But I I do believe that because it it almost feels like a good status thing to do, right? >> Um but what you do to get you to the top 50 in the world is very different, right? Nobody knows exactly what are the things that you do and sometimes you can't even explain I if you ever started a course on how to build successful podcast I can tell you it'll not be successful because you can't even explain many things that

1:03:21 you've internalized in yourself for example I invest in startups I start I write a book on how to >> pick good ideas to invest in. I will not be able to explain it. >> Why? >> It's so internalized that you don't even know what the lessons are. >> So, how can somebody build this? How can they learn? >> Constant iteration. Think of yourself as an app. >> If you are an app, apps have two things, features and bugs. You have to enhance the features.

1:04:14 successful cycle of releasing the apps is much faster. But isn't it driven out of then public validation? >> Not really. It's about truth seeeking on what is causing what. >> How do you differentiate between truth seeeking and validation? Because let's say you are for example if you ask people do you want to be healthy answer 100 or 100. >> Yes. >> Are you doing something about being healthy 100 actually? So you to look at data and instincts because so many health startups fail because motivation.

1:05:01 See wealth happens when you take something that people are truly motivated by and make it easy to do. Wealth gets destroyed when you keep making something easy that nobody cares about. And that's the thing. >> So most people remain poor because they are a not working on making themselves irreplaceable and b they are not creating something so valuable which a lot of people are motivated to get easily or will pay a lot for. How much would you pay for a

1:05:47 a health situation of your family member improving versus couering from Bombay to Bangalore. So there's a range huge difference. >> There's a range. Think about human motivation as some gangotri at the core. It's basically simple. uh we want health, prosperity, status for ourselves and our family members. >> All the things we do can be answered in this. >> Yeah. Right. And businesses are nothing but building dams on each of these streams.

1:06:32 Sometimes the stream is small, sometimes the river is bigger, sometimes you're building at Gangotri. For example, when I told you about the height thing and they may end up making [ __ ] tons of money, >> not necessarily. They they might find a very differentiated thing to do within that, right? For example, nobody's caring about that sector. Let's say you are, I don't know, becoming extraordinary building avocado >> and nobody has figured it out yet and you are realizing it's a big trend and you become the 80% market shareholder of avocado.

1:07:19 So it became big. It's a regular avocado but k of a product that people are willing to pay higher price for in a way which makes you more money. >> Correct. So it's it boils down to just what's your differentiator >> or what do people value? What do people value and are they valuing it at that point of time or it's likely to sustain? For example, let's say you do something that is a hype. >> It'll die away. >> And how do you identify what's hype and what's something that's going to stay forever? >> Because what are people doing it for temporarily demonstrating status or something that people will truly value? For example, we talked about labubu as like a temporary way of showing that I am part of a unique status tribe. >> Mhm.

1:08:05 >> Or height, which is a long-term sustainable thing, right? Health. >> But again, height is also status. >> Not necessarily. It's going to be long-term. This will not be a long-term thing cuz something else will become a trend. >> Height will not replace in the trend. >> No, I get that. But what I mean the ultimate emotion which is getting solved is status. >> Ultimately, everything is either of those three things I told you, right? It's a some version of social status, prosperity, and personal wellbeing, which is health. >> So, what's going to give you long-term this or short-term? >> Short-term of this. That's the way to think about it. But there are nuances to that. For example, let's say I built a lamp company, right? It gives a status in some ways, but uh it makes me feel that I'm a unique person. Let's say I have a nice coaster over here. It

1:08:52 feels different. Uh taste test whatever but with enough people will care about it right but if I was doing a bypass specialization less people will care about because it's not a everybody's going through that >> so it's about multiplying the utility value of something and the audience size and their net worth to be able to afford it >> okay so this is basic that People need to understand, >> right? >> Another basic is a lot of people want to get rich. >> Mhm. >> A lot of people also admire and worship people with money, but they secretly pray also for their downfall.

1:09:38 >> Not everywhere. Most in I'm talking about let's say a country like ours because you have also again some I think you've tweeted somewhere right. So people are somewhere they worship rich people yet they're praying for the downfall or they enjoy the downfall. >> Why? >> The thing is uh there are two ways. >> There are two ways to achieve status, right? >> Either I get ahead of someone or I wait for them to come to my level. It's very simple, right? So when we see some people who look to be extraordinary to become ordinary like us, it feels us it

1:10:25 just gives us a sense of relief. Right? For example, we like to know gossip about their personal life so that we feel in fact a lot of successful people also demonstrate. So that you feel like >> but why do they wait for them to fall or like at least find faults? >> It's it's not about that. It's just that you have to find something that gives you relief in some ways, right? You feel they're not special and it's okay. See what I'm saying is that people who are trying to be successful don't care about these things. >> Right?

1:11:13 If somebody has done something and achieved something and even if they become ultimate failures, the lessons are still invaluable. So are you interested in lessons or not, right? If you're interested only in their final status, then we are less likely to be interested in the lessons of that. >> And therefore is the case in most of the >> Yeah. But we can shape that. For example, I've often mentioned that we've built no successful documentaries or movies about successful achievers on what their journey was, especially entrepreneurs, right? But we have movie about every scamster, gangster, all of that because it's exciting.

1:11:59 Can we just make it more powerful by just demonstrating these stories? Right. For example, you'll feel lot more content about western entrepreneurs. You will see story about everyone. Yeah. And we read their autobiographies and all of that. But and and that often tells me that um that we might change that, right? Maybe someone like you will produce a movie and uh or make a documentary series and you might identify a new customer need that the current world is not identifying and create that because uh if that starts happening

1:12:45 we will automatically get really uh changing of what we care about right we will care less about oh this guy up down whatever we just care about Yeah, this is a good lesson. For example, if you read a story about how Spotify founder convinced music labels to join forces, it's a great lesson. solve a difficult problem because we are not we are we are more interested in content than being successful. No, so stories are more interesting.

1:13:31 >> Why do you think it's like that? >> Because successful entertainment. >> Yeah. Because how are we respected in our community by being more interesting sometimes? Going back to the >> Yeah. We often call successful and somebody who comes and say, "Oh, I went on a date or I often wonder by the way sometimes that who are in perpetual new relationships often are trying to be interesting sometimes cuz it's new content for their friends." You've also said somewhere uh most Indians settle for average careers. >> H

1:14:16 >> why why do you believe so? And why do you think Indians >> I I don't think I've said that we settle for average careers. I think we we settle for settling. I think what I mean by that is that right and it was a right decision at some point of time because we were very poor as a country and uh stability uh like we used to seek government jobs we still do because it provided stability right so it made sense to chase settlement settling >> but as you look at the next generation ation they are not choosing for settling because their family is settled they're

1:15:03 not worried about >> will I have a place to stay so when when basics are taken care of we become slightly more ambitious so you feel now it's changed do you think that's also there's a flip side to it a lot of entrepreneurs complain about it on the podcast also they've complained that >> lot of young people because they don't care about settling They are so flirtatious with their careers. They're not building their depth in any one field. Yeah. See the thing is um if you are not worried about how you will be taken care of long term, >> it's okay to be short-term about things,

1:15:50 right? You you are trying to jump between different things or whatever. So for example, younger generation is lot more driven by short-term approach to life cuz they have not seen anything long-term, right? Uh we've seen the average length of relationships also to come down, right? Like >> I often hear people saying that oh I was in this relationship for 8 months and and somebody who came from my generation or one before that >> it would sound absurd till somebody says that. >> So I think everybody's timeline has changed, right? Mhm. >> Uh and that is causing this thing of like what we feel of time right K 8 months. So I think that is

1:16:40 changing uh and but career if you're not driven by oh my god I'm going to become useless and I'm going to have no money and no family to take care of actually all these people who are flirtatious with their career if their parents threw them out of the house or told them you have access to any of the money that they have made or their parents were short-term and without all their money, you would automatically become more long-term. >> 100% 100%. >> So they're they be afford they're able to afford being short-term because >> because some other people around them are being long-term.

1:17:26 >> Do you think that [Music] that's what very common thing used to happen in the west? No. Westme getting people kids out at the age of 18 was exactly built for that reason right not just getting rid of them they were not just thrown out they were chopped off from all financially help should we do that should we kick our kids out >> I don't know what we want from life no who who decides right wrong I I don't know if you want them to become extraordinary successful yes you have to make them starve when I use the word starve is metaphorical is be deprived of support and resources. >> Yeah. Safety nets do not create always good athletes,

1:18:12 right? Like >> uh the the the fear of almost dying is what makes you really come alive. >> Yeah. You use the word extraordinary. >> You want them to become extraordinary then make them starve. How to become extraordinary? If somebody who's watching this wants to become an extraordinary person, >> first of all, you shouldn't have time to watch this podcast. But I think the the the point around any big achievement comes from overcoming many many obstacles. Overcoming many many obstacles is when you are putting yourself out there

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