Big Debate on Workers Rights

0:24 hello and welcome to the big debate I'm Sim gabad Workers are striking bosses are moaning government is caught in the middle every year in South Africa we have a season of industrial action which threatens to bring our economy to a halt we are reminded that the country loses billions and investors are scared off are greedy workers holding the country to Ransom or is it the bosses who are raking in high profits and exorbitant salaries how should government respond with me to discuss this are National Union of Mine Workers General say secretary France baleni national Union of metal workers of South Africa General Secretary Ivan Jim Joseph matuna of AMU the association of Mine Workers and

1:10 construction union private sector Economist Ary Ru of the efficient group and labor Economist N Ready of the alternative information Development Center and in our audience we have Mine Workers metal workers workers from other Industries shop stewards company bosses government offical officials academics activists and others who are concerned about workers rights in South Africa welcome to you all you can also make your voice heard in the debate send us your comments by SMS tweet us or post on our Facebook page we'll make sure your comments reach the panelists who are here today now before we ask our workers holding the

1:56 country to Ransom take a look at this every day thousands of South Africans go underground to extract gold and precious metals that build our economy during apartate workers Were Expendable they worked for a pittance thousands lost their health or even their lives very few received decent pensions or Health Care without their sacrifice there would be no flashy malls or suburbs today now we enshrine workers rights in our constitution and working and living conditions have improved for many Mine Workers as well as workers in other sectors but Recent research has examined the total share of all the money made

2:43 from mining which goes into the pockets of Mine Workers in this country and the truth is the workers share from mining hasn't increased since the end of apartate in 1993 Mine Workers received over half of all the money made from mining now they get get just 36% workers High wage demands reflect their anger at this worsening situation Mine Workers are not the only ones who seem to be getting a raw deal the bottom 30% of all South African formal sector workers have seen no increase in their real income their purchasing power over the past 20 years if workers are not making more money then who is South African corporations

3:28 are some of the most most profitable in the world but today mining companies argue that the falling price of precious metals means there is no money to go around we all want to improve our living conditions we all want to uh have more money and we all want to have a nice comfortable life so there's nothing wrong from workers demanding these sort of increases that they are demanding the reality however is is that it's not only a matter of what you need is a matter of what companies can quite often afford zungu is an unemployed mother of sex from the Eastern Cape for 15 years her husband Jackson worked underground mining Platinum his salary was around 4,000 r a

4:20 month in August 2012 Jackson joined a protest for higher wages on the 16th of August he was shot dead by the police in the Marana a massacre in the previous year his employer lman made a gross profit of around 3 billion Rand since her husband's death zica travels between the Eastern Cape and marikana she wants lman to give her her husband's salary she's even willing to work underground to earn it is a rock driller who also works for lman he earns 5,000 r a month

5:30 Tani and zame feel that their only supporters are now the trade unions but today our trade unions are divided and it was militant strike action by workers in one Union which preceded the Marana massacre in which 34 Mine Workers were killed will more strikes lead to more maranas Ivan Jim General Secretary of numsa do you not think that through these strikes that you are killing the Golden Goose that lays the eggs well ten I think as long as

6:16 Capal continues to Rob broad daylight the working class the social suass that it produce in other words if you buy this iPad you must know what what is its value and you can't get it unless you you actually exchange equal values but when it comes to labor for workers that principle doesn't apply if workers work 7.5 hours within one and a half hour a worker according to the bosses what is due to them is paid the rest of other hours are basically given to the bosses for free we call that labor Surplus value but the chair I'm sitting on everything else that I'm wearing and the shoes are basically produced by workers the contradiction in society is about who own and control that social surplus

7:02 so as long as that social surplus continues to remain to the bosses and actually build have to be paid as well no no no I'm just saying as long as that social surplus it remains is not being redistributed the strikes are going to continue all right Dy the social surplus I mean why should over all of these years the workers wages um have really come down as much as they have meanwhile we've seen um the manager wages going up in the in in the say in in the opposite direction um the workers are saying that they're asking for a minimum wage we keep talking about productivity every single time that workers go on strike well first of all I have to say that I disagree with some of the information on your on your insert that you found for

7:48 example South Africans have never had it so good on a per capita basis South Africans are better off today than before all South Africans on average on average of course some individuals but even in the lowest income category in South Africa particularly them are doing particularly well the last couple of years of course the rate of increase differs as the economy slows down for example just a comment about Ian's uh comment about the so-called labor Surplus value now that is that is an archaic old piece of theory thought out by a guy guy called Carl Marx which also is the biggest champion of a totally discredited ideology called communism that's just a lot of nonsense to put it in straight English but we are seeing today not only in South Africa but

8:34 globally indeed in some instances the wage or the part of labors that of the total production is indeed follow falling the rest is going to Capital and part of the reason for that is because especially in South Africa the productivity increase of Labor is simply not there if you compare white workers in this country to Black workers white workers ear per mon around 19,000 workers in this country were black and African around 2,700 or a little bit more and since 1994 if you're talking about the real increase the increase for workers have basically stand they didn't get the real increase in terms of median and that fraction that fraction that is paid to workers can only buy for workers squatter Camp inferior Township inferior

9:20 Hospital inferior everything all right I've got to bring in a I'll give you a chance I'll give you a chance I'll give you a chance I'm going to bring in Joseph M of AMU into this conversation you broke away um from the national Union of Mind workers um formed um AMU and you've been asking for what some people are calling ridiculous increases are you not setting up you're setting yourselves up for failure and also making false promises to workers I think if uh we'll be telling ourself that we are setting us for failure even the ANC would didn't even start in 1912 so therefore there's nothing that we want to get what belongs to us so why should we continue to be Beggars to have a generation of Beggars to the minority

10:07 of this country and let me bring in France France of the national Union of Mind workers these are people that broke away from your organization and often the N when it refers to AMU calls them disgram former members who can can you afford to continue to call them that aren't they becoming the true voice of um of the workers in South Africa are you not possibly are you not possibly um in this country The Toy Telephone between the workers and thec a sweetheart Union well I think uh it's in the interest of the workers to be United because the moment workers are divided the person who benefits is the employers

10:54 so it is not in the best interest of any Union uh that there is a Splinter unions and so on and I can assure you that very soon that b is going to join an because we have I don't think so we we have to be together in fighting this because I think what's important taking the point which we have raised earlier on the biggest Witnesses were in the construction of a new South Africa because in coming up with policies we just open the door where employers who have benefited big companies who have benefited of the apartate system including mining bosses who kept us in

11:39 Single Sex hostels we're allowed to take the money out of this country to sedney I mean to Sydney to New York who allowed them your Alli partner allowed they they they never they were not forced actually to be part of the transformation agenda but it was your partner it is our partner we have identified those weaknesses and in terms of macroeconomic policies which has to be addressed and unless those things are put into place we'll keep on complaining about the current challenges from what he's saying I think this rhetoric it doesn't assist to Sugar quote the real issues if we are genuine about liberating the working class from these chains of poverty wouldn't be signing 8% for a worker

12:25 who's earning 4,000 r at the mine so that's a we will be pushing for a genuine living wage and two again if some of the union representative office bearers are paid by the very same gold Ashan by this chamber of mine it will be easy for them to sign 8% because 8% well I think sometimes it's easy to be um the deficit with the truth um Mr matja himself knows that he has been paid by back BHP bulletin as an employee of B until last year when he was retrench so all worker leaders are paid by the employers and by the way I think there's a major discovery that going to

13:11 collective bargaining is not about going to a welfare department to collect a grant they have just discovered that because making false promises and you're not attaining them will destroy you basically because we must be factual if if things were easy like a Grand collection we supposed to be earning 100,000 for each worker but it's not possible because the explo exploiters wants to make profit let let me bring in n r into this help me here what where is what is a living wage I've asked this question so many times and I never get a straight answer what's a living wage well a living wage I guess is a wage that we're not just going to determine based on Market forces it's what workers need to sustain a decent life in this

13:56 country and I think it's completely clear it's completely clear that this country is producing enough wealth to provide adequately for every single work in the economy and I think the demand made by AMU for 12,500 is the way that it needs to be set atre something that Mr R said he's flat out wrong when he says that most South Africans have gotten better off in the last 20 years as Mr Jim said and as our research shows the vast majority of the workers have not seen any Improvement in their real wages over the last 15 years the median wage has been completely stagnant half of the workforce gets below 3,800 uh Rand per month the same as they were getting 15 years before that right the only increases in the

14:41 average wage has been due to increases for the top 10% and for highly skilled workers which are actually your managers your bosses and your professionals they're the ones that have been driving wages up over this entire period the majority has not even seen a trickle down now Mr Ru thinks that this is because uh labor has not been productive it hasn't been bringing the same thing to the table that Capital has there's no evidence for that and the reason there's no evidence for that is because it's a nonsense Theory you cannot possibly separate out what capital is producing and what's Labor's producing when they're doing it in the same process if you're working with a l actually what's happened is that workers power has decreased over the last 15 years there's an institution in South Africa the South African Reserve Bank they bring out a document every 3

15:27 months it's called a courtly Bulletin I suggest you go and read that why must we believe them gives your right to say everything that the Reserve Bank let him finish making his Mr uh uh Anin in 1920 the Communist Party of South Africa was created and you're doing exactly the same as the Communist Party in in 1920 today you are busy with job reservation the Communist Party in 1920 was created under the slow workers of the World Unite for a white South Africa there are millions of people that are excluders from this job creation because you prevent them from taking jobs I'm going to ask everybody

16:12 to pause when I ask everybody to pause this is a debate and there's still lots of time I ask you to pause I'll give you a chance to make your points after the break we're going to hear from workers and families who were directly affected by the events in Marana and we're going to look in more detail at the share of income that workers that goes to the workers you're watching the big debate

17:10 welcome back to the big debate we're discussing workers rights pay and Industrial action a special welcome to the community members from maranao who have just arrived in our studio after a long bus ride now on the 16th of August 2012 34 striking Mine Workers were killed today we have some of their family members here and we have some workers who still work at the mine it's time now really to hear what they have to say and my

17:57 my 16 August

18:57 fore for let me give um France a chance to

19:42 respond to that and a lot of anger and disappointment I think maybe I'm reading too much but a little bit of disappointment um in an organization that they seem to have felt was on their side well firstly um everybody has a right in terms of freedom of Association a person who's not happy belonging to any Union can disassociate himself and form another Union we would want uh to wish all those who have joined the other Union good luck and and and all the best basically in so far

20:29 in so far as um criminal matters are concerned those are involved in the police as well as um the commission of inquiry because both I mean the death through as a result of the massacre and before and after the 16 all those things have to be investigated because uh loss of life has happened and it hurts us it disturb us there's no um benefits of any worker killing one another it is merely black on black black violence people who are smiling are the employers all of us here must Channel our energies to the employers not amongst ourselves we don't own any business in terms of so far as the M are concerned people can repeat the untruth we have no interest in terms

21:15 of stake uh in the mining industry well France makes a very very important Point Joseph about um who actually benefits from a Workforce that is divided are you not playing right into the hands of employers no I don't think we are playing right in the hands of the employer the problem or the challenge that we are facing it's when the unions connive with the employers against the working class that is what especially at marikana it was quite evident before the the FM commission that nuum was writing letters to the state to unleash the soldiers to go and kill the workers at the mountain

22:02 so therefore it's not about the unions that are divided is the union that sold his soul to the capitalist class that's a very serious that's a very serious accusation I have to give France Millenia a chance to respond to that that is what was said before the commission I I hear you but I need to give him a chance to respond that's that's a serious allegation well you see um people who um lie without an effort um are very dangerous in society because truth truth must be told let's give him a chance to to respond truth must be yeah truth must be told there's a commission of inquiry

22:49 which is currently underway which will investigate everybody's role including uh Mr mata's role and and the team and you not I'm you not and I'm asking this question about Unity among workers which I think is is going to be very important if you're going to get even half of the things that you are asking for well I think the the first thing to say is that from Where Metal Workers stand is that we know capital for what it is capital knows no friend knows no relative what it knows is profit it will stop at it will stop at nothing in in in making

23:35 sure that it dipon divisions within the working class let me tell you what I'm seen here what I've seen here is that we have a Trade union or Federation with the name of KATU they are part of government they became more interested in governing than in the workers the result of that the result of that is that you created a vacuum and that vacuum was picked up by AMU and they fill that vacuum and what we have today we've got trade unions trying to outdo each other in the ridiculous demands that they are making because they're not interested in the workers they're interested in what about the boss's Ro in this CEOs of this company what about let's let's let's let's take the camera a little away from the workers for a second yeah let's look at the role of

24:21 the bosses of the Mind bosses in actually co-opting union members and actually bringing them effectively into the uh resource the human resource department of the own administrations let's not pretend that this is just about workers fighting uh against each other you know let's let's remember that this is a struggle ultimately against capital and let's remember that the mining buses in this country have centuries of of su exploitation of workers centuries of of knowledge and how to divide workers and the are very cored without actually participating in the being coopted that's what we need to deal with right they agree to be coopted if that's in fact what actually happens I'm not I'm not going to I'm not going to deny that there are faults amongst the unions for accepting this but let's not I'm just trying to say that we cannot uh pretend that the Mind bosses uh don't have anything to blame in this

25:07 in this and as far as this graph that we're looking at here explains why we need some sort of a national minimum wage can you just explain what that means wait D it's not your graph it's Nile's graph and then you can respond to see explain it to me so this graph is what we talked about earlier right it's taken from the status a labor force surveys and what it shows is that the real wages for the vast majority of the workers for the for the poorest half of the workers were completely stagnant over the last 15 years so this neoliberal economic system that we've had for the last 20 years has been working incredibly effectively so the African economy is hugely profitable but this hasn't resulted in the investment and the employment creation that we've been promised and we need to ask why that is all right mik I'll give you a

25:53 chance Doby first and I need to grab that from you let me let me let me explain something to you I've done the calculations if you look at a mine if you look at a mine more than 50% than what that mine takes out of the ground more than 50% sometimes as much as 70% goes to the state through direct taxes corporate taxes through indirect taxes through wages and taxes on wages through consumption expenditure like for example value added tax through sin taxes and the like and the like and the like if you add all of that up more than 50% goes to the state and of that 50% 60% goes to social expenditure that is on the different grants that is on education and on health services and like and 100 years ago 70% of the South African economy was mining today it's 5%

26:41 I promise you if you keep on destroying the mining industry the way you are doing it this year it will be smaller next year it will be smaller and the year there after it will be smaller still and we will not have a mining let's give Mike a chance we'll think about that we'll get a response let's get a response from Mike you know if these figures are correct then workers have been paying fees to unions for 20 years for doing nothing which sounds like a really idiotic thing to do so carry on paying unions there wer unions the wages would have been much lower no you everything hold on you you think so that's first of all so people if you've paid unions and you haven't got ahead then it means the union system

27:27 hasn't worked it means the labor relations and the bargaining as he says as nothing's worked in South Africa you've also voted for a government that's made sure that nothing's worked although Government taxes and everything so you know the flip side of the figures that he's saying no but if the figures that he's saying are true then none of the union members here should in fact be part of this debate because they are silly believing this no I think I think somebody need to be dismissed by those he benefit from is schler he need to be dismissed because he has been lying he has been no I'm telling you he has been telling figures that are basically not scientific about how workers have made improvements and how workers are basically are spoiled but it keeps quiet about the fact that 48 million stepan of

28:15 invest that's the the amount of money is's getting Anam 31.8 Million by David conable of s and I can tell you all these companies who negotiate with us one of the thing they say no to is to disclose their financial situations but these ones they can't hide that's the trend of CEOs they expect they expect that the working class must continue to sit in poverty and believing and somebody getting 48 million per what's the gap between the workers and the unemployed what's the Gap the question why does that matter it matters it matters because you're preventing the unemployed to taking jobs there four out of 10 people are employed

29:00 in we need higher wages to create more employment it doesn't matter I think I think we must be no no let me tell you why it doesn't matter the gap between ordinary workers and the CEOs of companies is 1,728 times so the few work in this country the few who have got jobs which are paying them peanuts carry the burden of the unemployed you you have been going around and and I think we need to defeat and I think the working class must send a very clear message we the fact that now through your own influence promising our government lies that they must deal with organized Labor organized labor is responsible for poverty unemployment and inequalities for information about 12

29:47 million people in this country are in hunger they don't have a plate of food in a country which is Rich which is got wealth and you want to turn around and say you and you don't think the argument that is being made is that we need to crush the working class further because no no no no no no no this argument is about the fact that government must deal with unions so that workers who are unorganized must basically go and sell themselves basically to prostitute themselves when we return we're going to look for ways of bridging the gap between workers and bosses when it comes to wage disputes and we ask can strikes

30:35 be avoided we're also going to look at what the future holds for trade unions in South Africa stay with us welcome back to the big debate on work is Right South Africa loses billions to strikes every year is there another way to agree on Fair wage increases and let's hope that my panelist can help me with this one let me start with you France B can we avoid this and get together in a room do we need to lock you guys up in a room throw away the key until you agree on what is fair both unions and bosses look there

31:20 can be no reconciliation between capital and trade unions it is in the nature of the relationship that there are permanent contradictions clearly um the strike is a right which we fought for uh under this democracy and it should never be eliminated we shall exercise that right to make Improvement uh for the betterment uh of our members and uh Society at large I want to come back to the issue D raised earlier on we have a situation where we have poor workers workers who are going to work every day but end up borrowing money just to get to work so it cannot be correct secondly if you pay workers a higher wage it goes back to the economy in terms of spending in terms of tax so the economy grows you cannot grow the economy by paying

32:07 workers less okay Ivan well I think I honestly think that France is right I mean the contradiction between labor and capital is a fundamental contradiction it's not a contradiction we want it to be permanent we want a Vanguard party that must actually help us to conquer that social suus in the interest of the working class the truth is we got a colonial weight structure in this country we got spoiled capitalists who have live and trive at the back of super exploitation of black and African labor we've been doing our best but I think we need government that must basically intervene in the economy that must take measures in terms of making sure that it own and control that economy on behalf of the economy is thec

32:53 that Vanguard party I my thoughts no the the African National Congress I know is a multiclass Liberation movement what we need the ANC to do which it must do if it must continue to enjoy the votes of the working class it must implement the freedom Charter the freedom Charter says mineral well beneath the soil Banks and Monopoly Industries shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole morogoro morogoro in 1969 it said that basic wealth must be restored back to the people as a well not to be manipulated by individuals be they black or white it must be about when we t on development we t on growth growth but

33:41 not just growth then redistribution it must be grow through redistribution so that the state must make sure that that the wealth that is being generated is basically redistributed to those who prod you think we can avoid strikes some we we've we've done a couple of things that that uh Ivan has suggested we've uh we have escom belongs to the state South African Airways belongs to the state alexor belongs to the state airports company belongs to the T sentex belongs to the state they all a disaster all of them without exception but let's not get emotional let us realize what we have in South Africa we have high levels of unemployment we have high levels of poverty we've got people that really suffer because of things that happened at Marana we have to be rational about

34:27 these things if we want to address Unemployment and poverty in South Africa there's only one answer we must grow the economy that's the only answer other answer what about the suggestion that grow in economic growth grow econom redistribution As He suggests the redistribution the redistribution V the fiscal I'm a fiscal expert I do the numbers it is dramatic I just told you more than 50% that they take out of the G goes to the state and that goes to social expenditure if we keep on doing this we will undermine those exact social expenditure that we need as a social safety net in this country have enough though do we want a society that's dependent on social grounds of course not yeah I want

35:13 everybody to be wealthy to have a nice car to have a nice flat and to have a job I want everybody to have that and we can only achieve that through economic growth and it doesn't matter whether you're part of the Communist party or a capitalist ask question the the guys that are successful are like for example the Chinese ask them how they succeeded in uplifting 600 million people out of poverty by setting the economy free when we return we're going to get the final word from our panel and our audience you're watching the big debate

35:59 welcome back to the big debate on workers rights now are workers holding this country to Ransom with their wage demands what do you think for as long as the employer still rewards shop stewards on the ground with board seats in you know with extra extravagant gifts that's why we will have this koods it needs to stop the employer also is not so innocent I'm talking from a sh stent my comment is regarding the economy I think David wrot that he's he's he's statement that South Africans are better off since democracy is very false given what we see in the townships and what DAV is using is that if two of you one of you has has managed to get a year tender and he's a billionaire and one of you has lost a job the average between the two

36:46 in terms of wealth is what he's using as a measure of a wealth that has improved generally African people are worse off most are unemployed and poverty has deepened speaking of a Vanguard uh party do you think thec does have the characteristics of becoming a Vanguard two to comrade balen comrade baleni you said you are realistic are you realistic when you make a 60% demand and the next morning you sign for 8% I want to ask Mr Evin one question because every time when M workers are going to strike in their way beg they attacking migrant shops and we are saying that workers right are also African migrant right are you working also toward that or migrant African

37:32 migrant right left behind we as as a unions it doesn't matter am we know each each and every one of us who is here that we are earning penuts in the mining level and if we keep on fighting each other we are going nowhere it doesn't matter let's have the unity amongst us guys it doesn't matter

38:34 thank you I think uh it's very clear from what we' have witnessed here that uh a year after the Marana Massacre the pain and the anger is still there um and I think our appeal to all the stakeholders the unions involved the government and even the employers is that we should all leave no stone unturned in making sure that the pain that we have witnessed today is addressed because if it is not then we'll have another marikana that is that is for sure we are maybe only addressing the issues of the shooting but we should all know that underneath those issues were the issues of the living wage people didn't just go to the

39:20 mountain and get shot they got shot there because they were there uh with certain grievances when we as the part of the commission went to the hostels I was shocked myself to see that 20 years into democracy there are people were expected to spend 10 12 hours underground in difficult conditions and from there they then have to go and live in those filthy uh conditions comrades I think our biggest problem is what we lost control of our Union we allowed our leaders to control us us instead of us controlling our leaders we have to begin to take control

40:05 back of our unions we have to have those workers committees reminding our Branch officials who they represent reminding our regional leaders who they represent and our national leaders who they represent from 1996 to 2012 the average of black income moved from 6,000 to 24,000 however the average of a white individual move from 87 to 187,000 that tells that tells a story we have serious race inequalities in our country and it underpins all the problems we're having we cannot talk about economic growth if we don't address the real issues we cannot talk about prosperous country if we don't address the real

40:51 issues of the workers thank you after the break the final word from our panel and welcome back to the big debate let's hear a last word from our panel here in Johannesburg and Dary R I'm going to start with you let me wrap I've done a lot of research on the race there are two things that we need to change in South Africa if you want to look at race we have to improve the qualifications and the skills of especially black and colored women if we don't do that the black and the colored Community will not be uplifted the second thing that we need to do we have to create an environment where is possible for black and colored women to get jobs if we don't do that we won't do something

41:37 about unemployment the reason why the white population group and Indian Indian population group are doing very well is because their skills levels are so much better amongst other reasons that is the reality in South Africa the key is black and colored women skills and we're all in this together well I think uh we need to appreciate um this debate there are some questions about um wages in so far as um ANM is concerned NM operates on the basis of mandate what members has given mandate and what members say at what point it must be settled so it's a mandated issue by members is not determined uh by France balini H the last point one one needs to make is that there are three threats basically uh

42:23 into our democracy which is poverty unemployment and inequality in whatever we do in whatever form or shape regardless of a union of of affiliation if we don't contribute in eliminating this high level of unemployment if we don't deal with the extent of severe poverty which has been raised right here but more important the level of inequalities the CEO of BHB bulletin if you take his salary end in 2011 and um uh for a lowest paid man worker it will take him 1,291 years to catch up with the salary of the CEO is very severe very abnormal thank you now well I fully agree with Mr

43:08 Jim on what thec needs to do in order to implement the freedom Charter the very worrying thing is that they seem to be going the opposite direction and adopting the agenda of these corporate agents uh through the NDP because the NDP calls for a social contract in which workers accept wage increases lower than what their productivity gains would would uh would dictate and that uh Capital users are resulting increase in profits for investment in order in other words they're calling for further wage compression right we've tried this wage compression strategy for 20 years now and it hasn't worked because Capital has been simply taking their super profits out of the country we need a radical change of direction towards wagel growth that means increasing the buying power of workers through wages and forcing Capital to invest to meet the growing demand and the first place to do that is to support the the the the demands of

43:54 workers for a living wage all right thank you very much I think where we are I mean the challenges that I mean are facing us is corruption nepotism and greedy greediness that is what is the challenge of South Africa two the issue of engagement on a formal basis on the transformation of the economy as we did prior 1994 and if we as a labor we have to unite and force this giant of capitalism we have to De associate ourself from political party is prior 1994 it was good to be part of the political agenda but let the politician do what they are capable in order the working class to be the Vanguard of the working class therefore we'll be in the position to transform this economy thank

44:48 you just on the just on the marican situation having listen here today France I think um we are all confronted with a very serious reality about that Community doesn't matter how we can explain what has happened it doesn't matter what positions we take as trade unions that exist but I think one of the thing that has happened today we happen to betray of us here and I always run away from the this coming together I'm cool because we as numsa we always catching Crossfire but I honestly think that there are two things we might have to think about honestly is that this thing of

45:34 government refusing to pay for the lawyers to make sure that the truth comes out I think the three unions including Numa that is neutral we must begin to debate what are we going to do about it I think it is FL the the last one for Davi I honestly think that it's one thing to say growth growth but it is not a small question to ask growth for who and for what for what the TR of the matter is that the economy of this country the wealth of this country is in the hands of white Monopoly Capital it is in the hands of white population I think the question of the property clause in the Constitution that ensure that white people in this

46:21 country and white Monopoly Capital they will continue to keep on wealth which they do not produce use and that we is not being redistributed is holding the wheels of history in this country to stand still lastly the very same capital on the question about Zimbabwe about migrants Capital where they will they can be able to use religion to divide and to make divide and Rule so that they can exploit they will do that in this country they will use they use race and they will use migrant labor so that they xenophobia everything else I think the working class whether was separated by rivers or Forest were exploited by the same class thank you very much all

47:09 right to contribute to our future shows don't forget to like our page on Facebook and follow us on Twitter Marana was a turning point in South African history we became known as a nation which is prepared to Massacre some of our most hardworking miners to prevent them from challenging the commanding Heights of the economy have we learned the lessons do we now recognize the value of the contribution our workers make and do we have the mechanisms to resolve wage disputes in future without violence you decide thank you for watching the big debate goodbye