Colin Kaepernick Talks the Truth About the NFL, Jay-Z, and the Knee Heard Around the World!

0:00 Now, did you expect when he asked you the question, you know, why are you kneeling and what is it all about? Did you expect the the backlash that you received? >> Um, we're ready. We're prepared. Do not give into fear. We are fearless. This is not the time to be afraid. This is the time to stand up and fight back and to resist any temptation for them to divide us. We're in this together. The rule OF LAW IS ON OUR SIDE. We will not give in, not give up. WE WILL NOT CAPITULATE. WE WILL NOT BOW. WE WILL NOT BEND. We will survive. >> Urban View presents the Perilous Fight,

0:47 a SiriusXM front row event with Colin Kaepernick. Here's your host, Karen Hunter. >> Yes. Welcome, welcome, welcome to our front row. And I am so incredibly honored to talk with this gentleman. He is the reason why I no longer watch football. >> And I started my career as a sports writer. So it has been very difficult but not very difficult because when you stand for something, >> when you kneel for something, >> you can stand for anything or stand against anything. Let me welcome to this front row um New York Times bestselling author. We'll start with that. Um father and husband. We'll we'll get that in as well. Uh, supreme athlete and activist Colin Kaepernick. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Yes.

1:33 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Before we get into the important stuff, do-agg or bonnet? >> How what what is the process? >> You know, I uh I actually don't do either. I do uh so I work with a a hairdresser. Okay. >> Stylist. She gave me the uh pineapple. >> So tying. >> Why do you know this? She's like, "Yes." Okay. Okay. What's the pineapple? >> So basically, you use a a hair tie. You pull it up. >> Mhm. >> So as you're turning and then use a a silk or satin pillow. >> Okay. >> And that gets the job done. >> So you're not braiding. This is just the pineapple. And then you let it out. And it >> pineapple. Let it out. Now it takes a little bit of work in the morning.

2:19 >> Okay. All right. Are there are there products there there's a whole routine to make sure you maintain. >> Can we get just a little hint into just a little look into the routine because this is a choice. >> So, you you have to have a good shampoo, good conditioner, leave-in conditioner, uh have a few different oils that I use to make sure it stays moisturized. Um that's typically a staple of the routine. And then depending on when we have uh like press runs, things like this, then the washing process becomes a little different. So you go conditioner, shampoo, and then conditioner again to make sure you get it right. >> See? See, people think natural hair is actually work. >> It's actually work.

3:04 >> It's way more work than when I just had a fade. >> Thank you. >> Way more work. And I start there because hair has been uh part of your defiance, part of your not just your identity, but it has been revolutionary. Throughout the book, you are referencing referencing hair, whether it's Allan Iverson's braids that had your scalp bleeding and and your introduction to pink oil, moisturizer, uh to, you know, super cuts. I hope they're cutting you a check. uh super cuts and and now now the fro which is which is beautiful. Um and and having a partner that said yes, wear your crown, sir. Wear your crown. >> Yeah. >> Um first of all, it was a revelation. I I watched the Ava Duvenet production that you did. Um and a lot of that is in

3:52 the book, but there's so much more context. What was the impetus to actually do? >> Um let me just tell y'all what it is. It's the perilous fight. Comes out this week, by the way. The perilous fight. what was the impetus to to write write this book? >> Um, a few few different reasons behind it. One is I've asked so many questions over the years. Um, why did you protest? What was on the other side of it? What were all the inner workings and conversations that were happening? Um, also what led you to that moment? I it I got so many variations of questions around it that I felt like people wanted insight into. So that became one part that was important. The other part is

4:38 in thinking about my experience from 2016 when I protested to today. I also think there's a lot of really valuable insights in there as we think about building power, as we think about building movements, as we think about systems change, approaches that we can take to it, but also a lot of learnings in relation to what you're going to face in that process and how to be able to better navigate that. And those are a lot of those things I had to learn on the fly. Um, I did have some phenomenal mentors that that gave me insight along the way. But more broadly, I think it's important for people to have that context so as we think about how we build and move forward together, we we can avoid some of the landmines and pitfalls that come along and be prepared

5:25 for that in advance. >> We're going to get into power plays and blueprints. Um it was September 1st, 2016, 10 years ago this month that the knee heard around the world became a phenomenon. But as you write in your book, you had been not kneeling but just not standing for a few games preeason. Nobody paid any attention. >> Yeah. >> Nobody was even you were just not standing. >> And it took a black reporter. Now, did you expect when he asked you the question, you know, why are you kneeling and what is it all about? Did you expect the the backlash that you received? >> Um,

6:10 I was I was prepared for what was on the other side of that. Um, now the scale and magnitude of what that turned into, I don't think you can ever predict that. Um, but we have good historical references in relation to what black athletes and what black people black people will face when you challenge institutions in that way. Um, I mean, in the sports realm, you could look at Ali, you could look at Tommy and John, um, you could look at Makmoud, you could look at Kurt Flood, like there's a long lineage in history around that. Um, and that's just in the sports realm. you expand that then you have a a lot more examples in relation to it. Um, one of the parts that

6:56 I I think isn't um, and I haven't shared like in this way is really important. When when Steve W came to ask me the question about why I wasn't standing. Um, he also came to it from a space of, well, let me make sure I'm protecting you and giving you insight as a a black man that's older than you. And he was like, look, I I'm going to ask you this. I also want you to know like what is potentially on the other side of it. And that was the introduction into him asking. He also when he asked pulled me to the side and didn't do just do it in an open

7:41 press conference because he was like I I want to have this conversation to be able to understand and also making making sure that I don't put you in a bad position as part of that. And I think that speaks to also how we show up in rooms for each other. And that is one of the things I'll never forget is in a moment where he could have just took that and said, "Oh, >> th this is my shot. I'm just >> right go viral. give me everything everything you have and I'll just I'll do what I want with it >> was very intentional in the approach to make sure that he wasn't setting me up for failure >> right and what is failure you know what is failure in this I mean because he I don't think he could have prepared you but I think that is why we have to have conscious people >> asking questions

8:27 >> in newsrooms in sports rooms all over the country >> for this very moment because we're going to have these moments and the thing that was a revelation for me reading about what happened next. Um the story and I repeated it on the air that you had gone to some guy who was a military guy, football guy and he told you to take the knee and that was not a true story. >> No. >> And I was like how did it allowed to how was it allowed to continue to that that that that myth >> it and you write about it. So before we get to that, you um you write about Freddy Gay, cuz it was really Freddy Gay that was the last straw, but there was Mario Woods, um Alton Sterling, Philando Castile. It was it was a a drum beat of

9:13 brutality that led you to say these words, this this national anthem, not just the that last verse, but the whole thing doesn't feel right for me to stand and put my hand over my heart and sing something when this is happening in this country. And you said you visited your parents in December and you were still mad about what was happening. Mariel Woods, you sat. You said, "As I sat on the couch with my mother, I showed her the video because everybody was seeing these videos." >> Yeah. >> You said it looks like a firing squad, right? Like an execution. And your mom said, "Well, you don't know what he did." >> Mhm. >> And you said your head nearly exploded. And you said, "What the That's her response. That's her

9:59 response." And you said, "It doesn't matter what he did. He didn't have to die." And I was nearly yelling, but I couldn't help it. How could she see this and not be outraged? I mean, she has a black son. Mario Woods could easily have been me. Does your mom get it now? I think she has a better understanding now. Um, I also realize that she'll never have my experience of being a black man walking in this world. her her reality has been drastically different than mine. Um, now I think she has a better understanding and uh a better sense of of empathy around it,

10:45 but I also know there's there's no way for her to fully understand what my experience is outside of me sharing what that is. I'm gonna put these notes away because um this was it was bugging me as I was reading this because there was time after time you were tied around a tree by a group of white boys. Um they could have lynched you but for a neighbor coming by and was like, "Hey, what are y'all doing? You couldn't tell your parents." And we live in a country where people self-segregate. You grew up in an predominantly white uh neighborhood, an all-white home, and you're navigating blackness through

11:30 a lens that no one can really see you or experience. You're telling your mom, "This is an outrage, and she's not seeing it." And we're here today, 2026, with people not being able to see it. >> You said she understands it. Now, does she have to be in your your your body to understand it? She's raising a child that she loves, right? So, how if you can't get your mother to understand, how do we get the rest of America to understand that there's a problem here? >> Yeah. I I think about that a couple ways. Um, one, you still you still have to push forward and try to get people to understand and give them the information, give them the insights. Now, what they do with that on the other side, that is up to them. Um,

12:17 but what it speaks to to me more directly is we have to build our own spaces to make sure that we're able to protect each other. It we cannot rely on other people protecting us. Um, and I that also comes to a space of, you know, often times we we talk about, oh, we need we need a seat at the table or we need to get acceptance or we need we need opportunity. In that way, it's like that's a that's a stepping stone, but that's not the end outcome or end goal. You we have to build spaces where we have control of our destiny. Um we have the opportunity for self-determination and aren't just dependent upon other people allowing us to go out and doing it, but creating the space where this is

13:03 where we're moving. This is how we're handling things. And we come to that table as equals. Um, and we come to that table as we have our own table as well. >> Yeah, I was I was going to say that that was a model. I'm I'm I'm a carpenter. >> I'm not I'm not begging for your crumbs. I can bake. >> We don't we don't need any of the things. But but we live in a world unfortunately where the systems >> are what they are. And you know, even in your household, >> while people claim they don't understand, you were held to a higher standard than your siblings, right? You had to get straight A's. You couldn't bring home a bee. >> Yeah. >> Whereas your siblings could bring home B's and C's and there were no consequences. So there was something inherently understanding that the world would be a little harder for Colin than for Right. I mean without them saying

13:49 it, they were telling you you have to be twice as good. Did you did you understand that when you were younger? >> I when I was younger I I didn't have that understanding or perspective. Um, I mean I at a young age I tested into gifted and talented programs into magnet programs and all that. So I I had some of that but I also knew the expectation was just high. Um, and I think it's important for us in having that understand what I walked away from that is um, this also ties into one of the pieces that shows up in my my college years that we had a poster in our locker room that says no one rises to low expectations.

14:36 And while it is unfair that we have to go out and be twice as good, I think the standard and expectation for ourselves to go to that level is incredibly important. Um, and I think being able to have that nuance of, yeah, we're going to set the bar here for ourselves. We're also still going to fight for the expectation of you have to provide us equity in this process and give us equal opportunity in it. and this shouldn't have to be the case, but we're still going to go out and exceed regardless. And I think that's a it's an interesting balance to have to navigate and walk through, but I I know we're going to be held to a different standard. Um I also

15:21 look at as an opportunity to be able to prove people wrong and prove the excellence that exists within us. >> Yeah. But they also understood. Do you know what I'm saying? Like the way you're writing this, it's it's you felt it was unfair, but they understood inherently that the world was going to be unfair to you. >> Yeah. >> So that means that they know >> and they're not doing anything about they they know that there's a problem and they're not working to fix it, right? What is your relationship now? Cuz that was just in my head, you know, chapter after chapter. I was like, where are these people now? And let me just, you know, put your your dad to the side for a second because you probably would not have been a quarterback because you said, "I got a white man, too." You know, they were trying to they were trying to put you in a box. You were

16:06 like, "Let me go. I'm going to go tell the white man that I have who actually had power." And he made sure that you were going to be a quarterback. He made sure that you were going to be on that field in that position because even he understood that there was something inherently wrong with not putting a black child as a quarterback who's capable and and having him do all the other, you know, yman jobs on the on the field. So, he knew too. >> Yeah. >> What's your relationship with them now? >> Uh, it's I mean I have a good relationship with them, but it's a nuance relationship. Um I mean we we detail a lot of the experiences throughout throughout the book and things that um I had to navigate and we had to navigate collectively. Um it to that point I think there's a

16:53 there is a high level understanding of we know the world that you're going to have to navigate to to some extent. Um, I also think there's a level of of denial of that as well by whether it's we don't want to believe these things are true or we don't want to accept them or we don't understand them. Um, I mean that shows up shows up when I have interactions with the police um and police pulling me over. It shows up um in the moment of uh protest and their response to it. Um I I know they have a level of understanding around it.

17:38 I also know they they don't have the perspective or depth um or understand around what that reality actually is and the impact that it has. >> Have they read your your book? Have they >> um they they have it in hand? I I don't know if they have read it yet or not. Um, my assumption is they they probably have. >> Okay. How do you think they're going to receive this? >> Um, I think there I think there will be tough parts in here for them. >> Mhm. >> Um, and there there will be parts in here that they also didn't know. Um, and will be new information to them. And I think that >> so you didn't give them any heads up like so on in chapter two.

18:30 I there are areas that they they do not know about. Um and reading the book will be the first time that that they're seeing some of those experiences that I've gone through. Um but we also over the years we've had we've had plenty of conversations around the topic at this point. Um >> are you at their Thanksgiving table? Um, most of Well, we don't really celebrate Thanksgiving. >> Okay. All right. All right. I'm using Thanksgiving as a >> cookout. What are we doing? Um, >> I was adopted into a white family. >> Yeah, I know. >> So, they got raisins. Raisins and the potato salad. Golly, you had a rough I was reading. I was like, "What a rough

19:15 childhood." You know, super cuts and raisins and miracle whip. Lord have mercy. Poor baby. But you you're you're here now. Um, I want to spend a little time on race because I think this is the the problem that this country needs to solve if it's going to be a nation. >> Yeah. >> This is the this is not just the original sin, but this is the the the gaslighting that has so many people in a chokeold and and also is preventing true freedom because we are not acknowledging. It's not it's not about acknowledging that there's racism. It's that race is a madeup construct, right? Yeah. and that you've put people in these places so that there's power structure that is going to benefit from us fighting with each other and they know it's a lie, right? So, so we're here now. How do you identify um to

20:02 because I know you know Afro notwithstanding um >> when you think about race and racism, how what does it mean to you um as as a you don't even let me matter of fact pause for a second because I have a question from someone on this. Let me not let me ask it in the way that he meant it. So, um, on our amazing channel, Urban View, we have a bunch of incredible hosts. Lar Daniel Favors is in in the audience. Um, Clay Kaine, uh, who is one of the pillars of of this channel. He was raised in um in a by a white mom in in a trailer park in Washington State. His dad is from Philly. Uh, so he and he doesn't identify as being biracial because this country, you know, one drop. Um, so let

20:49 me see. He said, "You have a white mother." This is a a a question from Clay Kane. And I want to ask it the way he's asked it because he's brilliant. You have a white mother and a black father, but you identify as black. And clearly the way you've been treated in this country has been as a black man. Years ago, actress Paula Patton told me, Clay Kaine, I find the term biracial offensive. It's a way for people to separate themselves from African-Americans. For you, Colin Kaepernick, how do you think about the term biracial in relation to your black identity? Does it resonate with you at all? >> I I identify as a black man. Like, it's how I show up in the world. It's how I'm treated in the world. Um, that's politically how I approach the world. um

21:35 biracial I I think it can give context as to uh lineage or background, but I think more often it is used to be able to separate and fragment the black community and try to say, "Oh, well, these are black folks. You y'all are biracial folks." Like, but you you're not black. Like, you you have more more proximity and like there's there's truth and nuance within it, but how you show up in the world, it's I'm a black man and I knowing that we are going to be treated as such. And also I think as we think about building collective power and actual systems change,

22:22 how you are treated within those systems and positioned within those systems should also inform how you move and how you approach things. And I think that becomes important beyond just the idea of what is the lineage that you come from, who your parents are is also looking at the broader societal constructs that you are going to be put in and have to navigate and where we fall within that collectively. So what do we do with people who demand that we see I don't want to disrespect the white my white parent you know do you roll your eyes when you see that or are you are they telling us who they are? Uh both. >> Okay. Okay. Both. >> So in in your book, you've had several encounters which let you know that you

23:09 were black, but when did young Colin Kaepernick, you know, because your parents didn't see color? >> They clearly they adopted a child who was black, but did not raise you to be black. When did you decide I'm black? Well, I I think it's an interesting dynamic because my parents knew I was black and told me I was black at a young age, but also how they operated was within a sense of color blindness. Like, hey, we're all family. Like, everybody's going to be treated equal, and that's that's what it is. But that's not how the world is going to operate or treat me when I walk outside these doors. >> And you didn't get that talk either. Oh,

23:55 I'm not. No, I'm not getting that talk or that conversation. >> And also, I don't think they truly have the perspective. Like my my parents are white from Wisconsin. We we grew up in central California. Like Turlock, California at that point in time, I think, was somewhere between like one and 3% black. So I think their their exposure to blackness was also whatever was out in the media at a high level like >> the the close relationships or or having black friends and conversations that way. >> I think that exposure was minimal. >> So I wasn't getting that conversation. I wasn't getting the insights as far as how to navigate the world as a black

24:41 man. And I had to figure out and navigate that by myself. Um, and that that posed its own challenges of how to be able to approach that. But as far as understanding being black, like that is something I understood from a very early age. Um, and I think probably the the first documented version of this um is actually what uh my children's book was centered around I color myself different was coloring myself brown while also coloring the rest of my family white. And that being a moment of no, I know I'm black. And at that point in time, even in by the time I've reached kindergarten, I know I'm being treated as a black kid

25:28 different than the white kids in my class, even though I haven't had that talk or that conversation. At that point in time, I just understood it as, well, I know I'm black, but you're not treating me the same way as the other kids. Like, this isn't this isn't fair, >> right? And the only thing I can identify within that is I'm one of I think maybe two black kids in that class. So like why is this being called out? And it's something that you know at that point in time even my mom identified. It's like well he's just out there playing. Why are you saying he's playing aggressive? >> And that like that's experience as a child before you have any of the understanding of the constructs that you're walking into. M and I want to redeem your parents

26:14 because even with their colorblindness and not real understanding, they chose you. They chose you to be in their home. They chose you to raise and they fought people on your behalf. Maybe not as viferously as they could have, but but they to their best of their ability, you know, which is all we can ask of people is to do the best they can, you know. So, I just want to give them a little grace cuz it it you know they >> we we ask people to do the best they can and then also push them to be better. >> Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um in this perilous fight, uh the book is the perilous fight. By the way, we're here with Colin Kaepernick. Um I want to get back to that knee that you took and I was thinking about this through this lens because I talked about it often. It was

27:00 the catalyst to me saying, "Oh, they're black balling they're white balling this guy. They won't give him a job. Oh, it is a plantation. Oh, Bill Roen was right. Oh, you know, I went down this and I was like, why am I supporting this? >> Why am I supporting this? So, I stopped. I stopped watching. I was in three fantasy football leagues. I was in second place in one of them. I was about to win. >> Okay, I'm good at this. And um and and that that engages you in football when you're in a fantasy league so differently cuz now you're in the stats. You you're looking at the injury reports. You're you're you're making trades. Like, you're in it. and to just completely be out of it. I I did feel a sense of mourning and loss, but what you did was so important in that moment. I was thinking also because I think the next year was the University of

27:46 Missouri. They had a problem on uh Missouri. Yes. University of Missouri. They had a problem with the president who was racist. Uh bunch of the kids on campus was like, "This guy's racist. He needs to go." And then the football team >> Mhm. >> in solidarity were like, "We're not playing until he's gone." They did not miss a game. And I said in that moment, "Oh, uh, football can change the world." Do you wish? Because it was only Eric Reed that that came. It was Eric Reed that came and suggested that you take a knee. Not Ber. It was Eric Reid. Y'all had a conversation. But what if every black player on the team >> took a knee right alongside you? And I think Eric ended up standing or did he

28:33 kne with kneel with you? >> No. E Eric took a knee um took a knee with me. He continued taking a knee after I was black ball. >> None of the heat. >> Um >> he did. So one of the parts that that people don't understand um I think don't appreciate about Eric, Eric Reid continued the protest years after I had been black ballalled. Ultimately, Eric's last season in Carolina, he went out and set two franchise records, he got cut and never saw the field again. He was the number two safety in the NFL. The number one safety went out and got a four-year extension, $60 million.

29:18 Eric Reed never saw the field again. >> Now, in addition to that, Eric Reed was part of the collusion grievance. Um he also was an NFLPA rep and fought for players uh medical benefits. During 2020 um the NFL was trying to sneak in the CBA um to remove players, retired players medical benefits. Eric went out and started interviewing the families of players who had those benefits that were going to be stripped away. And a lot of those conversations were the with the wives and the wives that were taking care of their husbands because they couldn't go out and work because of what football

30:04 had done to them. Um, and he ultimately got that back into the collective bargaining agreement and maintained their medical benefits. So, not only was he he's someone that was side by side with me in the protest and suggested taking a knee, but continued it long after I had been black ballalled. um was steadfast in that and that ultimately led to his career ending and being taken away by the NFL. >> The NFL is 75% black men, >> um I'm going to get into the uh propensity for white women in a second. We're going to get into that. But had they done what those courageous kids did at Missouri, >> I guess it was not millions of dollars on the line for them. It was just one

30:50 game. But that college understood the power of football and they couldn't miss one game. I think it was they were going to lose a million dollars or something. Had those kids sat out and then the coach >> supported them. Yeah. >> But they were going to sit out anyway and it broke the back of that university and they fired that >> that president. I was like why, you know, >> do you lament or what does it say about a league of black men that would allow for this to happen? And there's not a lot of guaranteed money. you and the CTEs, let's talk about it, right? To your point, you know, the way in which this this game strips people of their health, >> their mental health, and their physical health, and then they don't even want to pay, and there's billions of dollars being made as these people sit in these sky boxes smoking cigars and supporting

31:36 pedophiles. Anyway, what are what are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah. Um, I mean it I will say I I think there was a major missed opportunity to be able to understand the collective power that we have. Um, and we we had a lot of those conversations. Um, >> who's we? >> Uh, myself, Eric Reid, um, with with hundreds of other players across the NFL. Um and there's a a lot of fear within those conversations. Uh say can a lot of ego in them.

32:21 >> Um also it to to paint a picture um I'll give one specific example. I remember having a conversation with a player about protesting, about collective power, um about the opportunity in front of us and he was like, "Yeah, you know, I get it. I agree. Like, I believe in what you all are doing. You know, I I need to go ask my owner if I can do this." >> Oh, what? And it was a it was almost an unfathomable moment to to hear those words come out of a black man's mouth. >> Um I I

33:08 he owns the team. He does not own you. He is not your owner. Um and but I I think it speaks to the mentality that is built um and culture that is built within the NFL. Now, to the point of the Missouri team and how this relates to the NFL, the league is 70 plus percent black. If players went out and said, "We're not playing this Sunday." The financial impact to the NFL, there will be change by Monday. >> Polit political change, too. Like, we they could change >> and not just to not just institutionally within the NFL. They they have corporate sponsors and

33:54 corporate partners. They have political lobbyists. Like the the influence and impact that could be had by players if they realize that power. They could steer the NFL in any direction that they want. And that is because there is no NFL and there is no product without them. when you are the product and not just part of the system, the leverage that you have is so significant, which is also why I think they go to such great lengths to make sure that players stay obedient and players stay in their place and and ultimately stay in line. >> And you're an example, you write in uh the perilous fight, shirtless and stripped down to our draws, we walked

34:42 out onto the stage one by one. When directed, we turned around slowly so everybody could get a good look. This is one of those moments during the NFL combine when the strange and ugly ramifications of our profession really hit home. Grown men problems indeed. How I look standing nearly naked on a stage has absolutely no correlation to my ability to throw a football or to read a defense. I'm pretty sure of that. But those are the kinds of situations prospective NFL players have to endure during the bizarre annual 4-day event known as the NFL scouting combine. Combine or less formally the NFL combine or draft combine. Let's talk a little bit more about this when we come back. Um the plantation. The plantation. All

35:29 right y'all. It's a front row with Colin Kaepernick. We'll be right back. >> We're ready. We're prepared. Do not give into fear. We are fearless. This is not the time to be afraid. This is the time to stand up and fight back and to resist any temptation for them to divide us. We're in this together. The rule OF LAW IS ON OUR SIDE. WE WILL NOT GIVE IN, not give up. WE WILL NOT CAPITULATE. WE WILL NOT BOW. WE WILL NOT BEND. We will survive. Yes, welcome back. We are in the perilous uh fight uh right now. We are in it with Colin Kaepernick. Uh before

36:15 we went to break, I read from your book um a description of the combine. I've been there. Um I actually took a kid there that I was mentoring and it was stunning to watch. It was stunning. How high can you jump? Uh let's look in your mouth and see your teeth. I mean it was it was the way you described it is exactly how it is. Was it a shock to your system? >> It it is a shock to the system. Uh in part because what the public sees is day four of the combine. You you see the the onfield, you see the 40, you see the vertical, you see the the skill drills. Like those are things that the public sees. What you don't see is all of the interviews behind the scenes, all the

37:01 medical exams. Um, you you don't see the the walking out on stage in your draws. Um, those things are all be behind the curtain, behind closed doors. And that's where things become uh to me a little more nefarious in relation to it. In reflecting back, I look at almost as uh seasoning players, like making sure that we set the tone for what this experience is going to be for you and the level of obedience that you're going to have to have in the process. Um, and jumping through the hoops that we ask you to jump through. And a lot of that process has no correlation to your ability to go

37:48 out and perform the job. And I think that's where the the important distinction comes in. I understand interview processes and I understand like, hey, I want to make sure you're best player for our team to help us go out and win. Absolutely. Staying on stage in my draws doesn't give you any information relation to that. Um, asking questions of players about are they gay? Is their mom a prostitute? um after the protest. >> That's an actual question. >> That question, >> is your mother a prostitute? >> That question has been asked at the NFL combine. >> Um after 2016 asking, "How do you feel about Colin Kaepernick?"

38:36 >> Wow. >> Now, all questions in any normal environment and setting like you're have you have a labor suit on your hands immediately. >> Right. Right. Um, and it it's similar to it if you were interviewing for for Sirius and they were like, you know what, we need to see you in your draws. It's like, what what does that have to do with my ability to come out here and do the job? It It's the same thing, but we often the the conversation perception is like, oh, well, you know, it's a physical sport. It's it's the athletes. like we we have to be able to see them in that way and there there's almost a obsession or fascination of that fetish

39:23 >> and a a sense of a right to it as well. >> Yes. >> And >> to me I I just don't accept that. I don't think we should accept that. Um and that's also something that the NFL could very easily change. They just have to have the will to do it and not changing it. After Bill Rhoden, the $40 million slaves, all of the players that have spoken about the combine, the par parallels to slave auction blocks after seeing and hearing all of that and being unwilling to change the practices, well, you must have a very specific intention around why you're doing it then. >> Correct. Correct. Uh, so who radicalized

40:11 you? Who who got to you, Colin Kaepernick? Because you weren't always this guy. Um, you write about a book, Soul by Soul, Life Inside the Antabellum, uh, Slave Market by Walter Johnson. Who who led you to read these books? >> Um, it's actually my my partner Nessa um, and my wife Nessa who introduced me to the autobiography of Malcolm X. and but completely changed my life. It it gave me so much context um and insight around all of the experiences that I had that no longer no longer were just individual experiences. They were

40:56 put in broader context of the US as a political system, um racism and white supremacy as a a global um political belief and influence. Um, and it gave me a a better understanding to go back and question all of the things that I had been taught to that point. Um, and in part because Malcolm, the Panthers growing up, they were demonized. Like they were not looked at in a favorable light. >> That's right. and the autobiography actually gave me the truth around it that then led me down the path of okay now now I'm going to read Fenan I'm going to read uh revolutionary sui suicide by Huey I'm reading Angela Davis

41:45 um I'm reading Baldwin and I'm going down this path um uh of understanding and learning and discovery I'm auditing uh graduate classes at Berkeley um as part of this And ultimately understanding the the real history and intention behind systems that have been built within the United States um gives us such a stronger foundation to actually be able to to say the truth about what what the goals and objectives are and also why moments are showing up the way that they are and what they're intended to do, not what is just propagandized >> as far as what they're supposed to do. >> Um I have written here Nessa, Nessa,

42:30 Nessa because um Nessa is incredible. >> Yeah. To have I mean we all bump against people who introduce us to things and open open our world um as I'm as I'm reading, you know, not only that that relationship, which we'll get to as well. I'm also thinking if Jaylen Brown in the NBA, you know, gets demonized for being quote unquote too smart and he's given the blueprint like I'm trying to rebuild Black Wall Street. They're over here trying to demonize me. And basketball players, the NBA has had a certain modicum of of agency that we haven't seen in any other sports realm. The WNBA being another place where people are free and they show up as free

43:17 people. The NFL has historically had this I got to go talk to boss. I got to go talk to my owner mentality. And it's almost as if from Pop Warner up they groom young boys. And I say it like that on purpose to be obedient as you write about in your book. So what does it say for an NFL player watching right now to know that your agency and freedom and intelligence is actually not not favorable? That you're you're you'll get paid more by not speaking out. So, if you are getting these contracts, and this goes beyond sport, if you're getting these high contracts, there's an exchange. >> Yeah, >> that's if if we're going to give you 125 million, you have to do something for that. Why isn't that the narrative that somehow if you're not speaking up, it's

44:03 because they think you're stupid or they think you can you you're going to sell out your people. So, why isn't that the animated uh way in which we describe these people who aren't saying anything? Yeah I I would say I I don't think them taking contracts or not saying anything is typically because players are stupid. I think it's because they're willing to assimilate for personal benefit. And >> so let me just I know I'm saying we as propag as we propagandize and and say say the nar like >> maybe that'll get them to say hey I'm not stupid >> but go ahead continue continue to cook >> and and that's

44:50 I think the part that a lot of players may not realize is how they are used and positioned to be able to advance other objectives. ives that they may not be privy to. Um, and a lot of that comes into to the space of, hey, just fall in place. Hey, you know what? If you have an issue, you need to come to us. We'll discuss it. We'll we'll help you with it. But oftentimes, that help is really we're going to bring you back to where we need you to be and ultimately deter or steer you away from things that may be beneficial to your community or broader objectives. they actually may be counter to their intentions. And

45:36 I think football in particular creates a a very interesting um training ground for this because football as a practice. Typically, how you see success from an early age is you're going out and practicing. Your your coach is telling you what to do. You're you're running the plays that you're told to run. And if you execute what you're told really well, you win and succeed and you move to the next level. So it almost creates this feedback loop of I'm told what to do. I go out and practice it. I do it really well. I do it well. I move to the next level. And I think getting to a space where where players are able to be able to separate

46:23 and make that distinction. I think some players have been able to do this, but I think understanding that often times with that check also comes that level of obedience and assimilation that is expected and isn't going to show up definitively in your contract, but it's going to be we we need you to go out and help us with this. Like we we're on the same team. We're supposed to be doing this together. like, >> you know, >> you're also built into this mentality of of team and like, hey, we have to protect the team. We make sure the team moves forward. >> But when you get to the the NFL, the dynamics shift from a team of, hey, we're we're playing and just competing

47:08 to no, we this is a business. you are now in a space that that is not just business but is also political. And as much as the NFL will want to position themselves as not being political, I mean they've raised millions of dollars for Trump, they have lobbyists. Um we've had John Elway and Michael Bibwell um from the Broncos and Cardinals who came out and supported Kavanaaugh and Gorsuch um for the Supreme Court. So they'll position as we're not political. We just we want to play the game. We want to compete. We're a meritocracy. Like, you know, let's make sure we go out and win together. We got to make sure our team is strong. But as part of that, you have to also

47:55 understand the position that you hold within it and how you're going to be leveraged to be able to advance their interests. And ultimately, players have to decide, are they okay with that or not? or are they going to take a position that they believe in that actually benefits our community more broadly? >> You're gonna take a kid who comes from poverty and offer him all of this money >> and then expect him to stand on principle. >> You know, I mean, it it is a a tough ask, which is why the system has to be assaulted at at its very core. And it's beyond football. It's beyond sport. It's, you know, it's it's beyond sport. Jay-Z can come in. So, so, so they find all of the different ways to to shut down any kind of opposition to the

48:40 system. You you are quoted as saying, I don't know if you said it because I didn't hear it out of your mouth. Jay-Z has a guilty conscience over his NFL deal. >> You're serving up the culture to a bunch of racists. Did you Did you say that? >> Yeah, I told him that directly. >> Okay. Okay. >> What do we do with that? The we the people, the consumers of this content, for me, it's zero tolerance. I'm not buying a Jay-Z record. I'm not going to his concert. I'm not watching football. >> Yeah. >> But I understand, you know, for a lot of people, they have >> told a narrative to themselves that, you know, it's just music or it's just, you know, >> how do we have this conversation? Because this is the very core when they couldn't shut you up. They they pushed you out when the the protesting happened. Then they bring in Jay-Z. So,

49:27 we come back and they have higher ratings than ever, which pisses me off, right? The ratings are higher. They're making more money. Jay-Z's doing the halftime. We Oh, we're so excited because we're we're now there, but we're not there. Can you explain that? >> Yeah. Um, well, first I would say I'm with you on approach. I don't watch the NFL. I'm not listening to the music. Like that's I think we have to be very clear in our positions and also have very high expectations. Um, and part of those expectations are we're not going to sell each other out. We're not going to work against each other. Like if that was the if that's the goal and approach that we're going to take is going to be individualistic, I would have never protested.

50:13 I would I said, you know what, I I lost over $150 million. I I would have just pocketed and been like, you know what? I hope things get better y'all. But where does that get us? like what does success actually mean if you take that success and only keep it for yourself and you're not opening doors for other people to be able to come in and thrive. So I think that expectation for ourselves is incredibly important. I also think the the intention behind why why moments show up, why opportunities show up and how we navigate those is important. So, prior to to Jay-Z doing the deal with

50:59 the NFL, the NFL owners said explicitly, uh, Terry Pul Terry Pagula from the Bills, um, explicitly said, "We need a black face to be able to move this or lead this and help us resolve the kneeling issue." This is in a a players owners meeting that like they just came out right and said it. And they they tried that with the players coalition. That didn't work. At this point in time, artists are boycotting the Super Bowl. They're not performing. There's boycots of the NFL. Um, and the other part is, and this is

51:45 I I want people to understand this because I've also seen the conversation of like, oh, well, it's because you weren't able to get things done in that way and that that's why you're upset about it. I want people to understand the the NFL also offered me a very similar deal. It wasn't in relation to halftime shows, but they wanted me to be the face of all their social justice initiatives while blackballing me, but also a massive paycheck attached to that. And that was for me as well as Eric Reed. And we turned it down because why are we going to play in our

52:30 community's face about the reality of what their intentions are and what they're trying to accomplish? They have shown as an institution by their practices, not not the the marketing and propaganda, the practices that they have that they have no intention of trying to benefit the black community. Um, and it's also important distinction because I know the conversation will come players make millions of dollars because they're the business that allows them to create massive wealth in their organization. They're employees. They're high paid employees, >> but it's because they allow them to build a business that allows them to accumulate wealth. Um the the last part

53:18 that I I'll say um and I I was reflecting on this this happened in 2019 when when Jay-Z did the deal with the NFL. and uh I privately had a conversation with him. Um I tried to be in touch with him for at that point a couple years. Um would never take a meeting and gown call. I had a call the day before the press conference um because he wanted to say that he spoke to me going into that. >> Um that is ultimately what led to the space of me saying you're selling the culture out to a bunch of racists. Um, and my my one ask there was just keep my name out of it.

54:05 >> Like if you're going to do a deal with them, do a deal with them. Keep me out of it. Um, that obviously w was not respected within the the press conference and interview. But the part that also realized was after that um I believe it was about a week later um flew to Ghana. It was again 2019. So, we're we're at the 400 year anniversary of 1619, and we're in a we're at one of the the slave castles in Ghana, and um this young woman is is walking us through, giving us a tour, and we had been there before, but this insight wasn't shared with us the last time that we were there. And she said, you know, one one of the

54:52 things that people don't understand is like there were some of us who were selling us like there were Africans that were selling each other into the slave trade. And in that moment, on the back of what had just happened was a realization of like, yeah, that that is going to be the reality for some of us. And we collectively as a community have to have an awareness of that, an awareness of when those moments show up and be able to combat those. Like we have to take definitive stances and positions to say this isn't acceptable as far as how we're going to move forward as a community. And uh I think that becomes important

55:38 because otherwise we send the message of oh you know what we're we're actually okay with this, >> right? Silence is acquiescence. Um, Angie Nixon was on the show. She said, "When they go low, we get loud. >> This is the time for collective voices to raise up, but also collective action. We can't sit and say this is okay." >> Yes. >> Target is a a little blip, you know, of what is happening. Um, by the way, you you even got criticized for taking a book off of Target out of Target as if as if you have control. For those of you who don't understand publishing, they put the book everywhere, right? you they don't ask you uh can we put the book in these different places they're trying to move books right so the perilous fight is everywhere you actively target yeah you actively went and said take my book

56:24 out of target yeah >> you didn't have to do that >> yeah it and it's in >> we didn't have to do that but to me I did have to do that we we as a community are actively boycotting target M >> um and regardless of what narratives exist out there is otherwise uh that is something that has been in place has been longstanding and for us to your point on the publishing side they push books everywhere. As soon as we were aware that that was one of the locations, like we went in and said, "No, we have to pull it." Like, it's not going to be sold there and a phenomenal publisher

57:10 that that worked with us to make sure that that happened. >> Um, I will also say just as far as it's it's also not an easy thing to be able to get done. >> Yeah. I know >> because it they're also they're navigating relationships. they they they have algorithms around it. They have all of those things. So, >> it it's not a simple process. Um but we had a great partner that >> we we're very clear with and they work with us to make sure that that happened. But it also becomes an important piece for the message is not solely just target like we have to be we have to be targeted in the approaches as far as where we are going to boycott because we

57:56 can't do everything all at once. But part of the intention of boycots is also to be able to send a message to every other corporation. That's right. >> To say >> if you take this same approach and if you have similar practices, >> there's a consequence. there's consequences for it. And corporations, their their primary function of the executives is they have a fiduciary responsibility. They have to make sure the company makes money, which is why boycots are so effective. If you affect the bottom line, they have to think about their approach differently. They have to show up differently. And that is where collective power actually sits and lies and trying to gloss over the fact that that is the reality um and capitulate to

58:41 corporations in that way. Like I that's just not something I believe in. >> If everybody had taken a knee that one game, we wouldn't be sitting here right now. You're not going anywhere. Y'all get the book Colin Kaepernick the perilous fight. And that comes straight from the Star Spangle Banner. Uh for those of you who are not matter of fact, let me just read the last the very last thing that you say in this book that I wrote down here that uh after I've crumpled up. Uh being black in America is a perilous fight. I can't afford to back down. None of us can. Not if we're going to turn this thing around. The world needs each of us to be willing to stand up or sit down or kneel to bring about the change we long for. We must never forget our children are watching. Let me say thank you. Thank you for

59:28 this. Thank you for this book. >> Colin Kaepernick. >> We're ready. We're prepared. Do not give into fear. We are fearless. This is not the time to be afraid. This is the time to stand up and fight back. And to resist any temptation for them to divide us. We're in this together. The rule OF LAW IS ON OUR SIDE. WE WILL NOT GIVE IN, not give up. WE WILL NOT CAPITULATE. WE WILL NOT BOW. WE WILL NOT BEND. We will survive.