Doctor Who Review: The Novel Adaptations - The Highest Science and Cold Fusion

0:00 hello I'm Rob Shaman and this is the Sirens of audio there are some corners of podcasting that have bred the most terrible things things which act against everything I'm trying to edit things like Philip's dog constantly barking and his family having loud parties just outside the door these things must be cut [Music] I [Music]

1:03 good day audio files this is the Sens of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who with the audio medium I'm Dwayne and I'm Philip good a Dwayne good audio files good day Philip how things things are fantastic how are things with you very good I'm still in broom I've just had my last broom sunset tonight on cable Beach and I'm really going to miss the place um and I still there's crocodiles swimming in the ocean there I would yeah but they opened up the beach we we swam in it today it's been closed for the last 5 days or so but they opened it up today and we went for a swim so we could say we swam at Cable Beach we swam in the spot where the Croc was so great so what do they do with the crocodile oh it just moved on they've just keeping an eye out they didn't catch or anything it just moved on

1:50 That's So Australian yeah we just swim with those crocodiles who cares yeah good good on well the locals the locals say the beach is open for tourists yeah so yeah so joining us today is once again we have uh Dave from the Doctor Who show Welcome Back Dave thank you very much great to be back here on belan Eve in fact oh what is this it's it's belan below the prince himself is n well there you go I've got no idea what you're talking about but there you go oh okay that is is that the date is this I thought it was October date no no it's it's April 30th belan it's when they open the Barrow of the Demons well there you go there you go you're a

2:35 better Doctor Who fan than we are and that's why you have the Doctor Who podcast I know it's great to be back yeah well thanks for coming back because we we know you are somewhat of an expert when it comes to the the novels the Virgin new adventures and the BBC novels um and we're going to be talking about a couple of those that have been adapted for big finish audios uh in theep episode today uh first of all we're going to be discussing the the higher science by originally written by Gareth Roberts this one was adapted by Jack Rainer and cold fusion which was adapted by the author himself Lance Parkin for big finish so we're going to get some uh some thoughts on that from all of us and especially your thoughts Dave we're interested in how they how

3:21 the audios match up with with the books in your opinion um but uh but first of all I think Philip you had some questions for Dave oh well I thought we we're not gonna go down the rabbit hole first Dwayne oh you want to do that first let's go down the rabbit hole all right come on then let's [Applause] [Music] go thanks for pushing me straight down the rabbit hole Philip I I couldn't care we didn't start down I'm so nervous till I find out what we're going to talk about that I just like to get it over done with okay well we're going to talk about this this thought only came to me recently too so it's almost a surprise for me this question that I've got for you for

4:07 both of you uh but we'll start with you Philip because I like putting you on the spot we're giving you no time to think um my question is does it matter in expanded media whether that sticks to the TV law or not are you happier or what what about you personally how do you feel do you like your expanded media to stick to do holor or do you mind if they go off in whatever tangent they like oh dear this sounds like it's a question about Kenan what's Ken what's not Kenan is that what you're really is that what you're really asking um I I think that all expanded media needs to stick to the TV show to some level I I don't want I don't want it going off totally on its own on its own Branch I think that it needs to come back to some point to still be recognizable by the TV show

4:55 I do recognize that um different media do different tones and play around differently to what the show does I mean the show has a a largely expanded audience it goes very young and so if if you're working with particular books and things then it can do a different dive in terms of tone which I don't think TV show can always do um yeah know I I I I like it to yeah I think it needs to be recognizable I don't want to see it Go totally off I mean that big I do love the two Doctor Who movies with Peter Cushing and really they have very little or no they don't some part they have very little to do with the TV show um it's hard to believe that they've actually the same scripts but there's so so much that is so different to the whole concept of those um yeah so I would say yes I think that they I like to have them linked together

5:41 in some way but I'm happy to changed my mind about that well depends I might think the exactly the same but what about you Dave what are your thoughts on particularly the books because they're quite they go off on quite massive tangents at times yeah no I appreciate you letting Phil go first on this one so I could try and reach an intellectually rigorous and defensible position um but I've utterly failed to do that because my answer is basically I'm happy for them to go off in strange areas as long as they're good ones that I approve of and completely don't approve of them going down strange areas that I don't approve of uh look I think that it would be a complete waste of various different formats and genres if they didn't go into some slightly different places um that would just be a

6:28 waste of a movie a waste of a book of an audio but like Phil I think that there are there are some red lines that probably shouldn't be crossed I I I think that if you you know make the doctor something other than a Time Lord or you remove the Tardis or he starts sleeping around or you know that sort of thing I think it becomes a little bit too much and probably you know leaves what I would consider the spirit of the show but if you're doing something in a different format absolutely push a few buttons and and frankly you can do different doctors out there I mean the dwm comics did some very different things to the show as you said the movies was something that came to my mind um the book stuck fairly close but I mean big finishes experimented with

7:14 all sorts of different takes and some of them some people love some of them other people love so you know I'm fine as long as I enjoy it and frankly I don't care that much of other people enjoy stuff well I was thinking about Cal Fusion actually because that's uh a story that takes the origins of the doctor to qu a different level in terms of patients the character patients who was there in the in the novels which we'll no doubt talk about a bit more in depth when we get to Cold Fusion even the origins of Susan uh which uh which are touched on in In Cold Fusion so um those are all areas that are that are really interesting so to me I think as long as it doesn't as long as it adds to the TV without changing it I think that's

8:00 pretty much what what you just said Dave I've just put it in slightly different wording but um yeah there there are some areas of the books which I found really complicated there are some areas of the books that um that I I just look at synopsis of books and find them a little bit confusing so um there are probably some expanded medas that I avoid because I just find a little bit too confusing um do you think it matters whether the show's on TV at that time so for example if you're doing something when the show's not being made as these new adventures were does that give you a lot more license than if you're trying to tie in with something that people could be watching that year I think it does I don't think the

8:46 the books would have become entrenched as they are um in fandom in the particular way they are and everyone's looking back at them now is like a a classic era now um if the TV series was running at that time there would have been a lot more focus on the TV series but because they were the only regular doctor who that was coming out and they were very regular um throughout the '90s um that's what people are focusing on uh particularly fans of those um so yeah personally if they go off on all these different tangents I don't mind them but I do think it needs to stick to TV law and there are you know I'm thinking of cold fusion again there are a couple little aspects you know references to TV episodes here

9:32 and there um you know one thing I like which I'll I'll talk about a bit more is the is the fact that the FIP doctor's hair is shorter all of a sudden which gets mentioned in Cold Fusion so little little things like that that are referenced back to the TV show I really love that kind of little detail that die hard fans can pick up on yeah I think that playing around with that sort things is a lot of fun um I know the Dr Who put a podcast last week on who killed Kennedy the book which I'm records the way reading through so I haven't listened to the podcast yet because I don't want to be spoiled and so I haven't I did a little synops I haven't listened to that I haven't listened to podcast because I've got to finish the book first and things keep distracting me from finishing the book but I have really been enjoying that as a novel because it is a doctor who story with the doctor's just a proof free

10:18 character someone investigating him from a distance and it's been such a joy see tapping into these little moments of Doctor Who along the way it's very much like um the big finish companion Chronicle with Shaw the last post where it's her and her mom chatting about incidents that are happening and I think he talk about all these strange deaths keep people keep dying in bizarre ways getting notes about to die first which is it's done in a very similar vein um I think playing around with that sort of form is brilliant but it's still obviously Doctor Who but you once again makes up all these little jokes about the dating and about the all the in inaccuracies that happen in the show that we as fans notice it's pointing them out in the way like the short hair thing does so I I think other media has a way of expanding and creating extra

11:03 enjoyment but there is just too much out there to do everything and so because you know my focus is the TV show and big finish um I really haven't I never put the time into the novel so I'll talk about that in a moment though um but being forced to I wasn't forced to read who killed Kennedy but knowing that the doctor who was show were doing it I thought I want to read it because I want to enjoy the conversation more and that's actually made me read something I wasn't going to read anyway and I've just loved it it's I'm so glad um that I've been pushed that way and and that's happened a couple of times with the series you know with the um the last of the time Lords where I did buy a couple of the books because I wanted to understand the picture better so you know you get rewarded when you actually dip into other media which I don't generally do just because of time no

11:49 that's that's very true and I hope you enjoy the episode when you get to it should be this should be like a day or two step T night fines excellent what my Twitter account you'll see I'll comment know that fantastic all right let's crawl on up out of the rabbit hole and uh before we get to our chats about the stories in question for this episode Phillip I'm gonna hand over to you well I just wanted to while we got David here I just wanted to qu about two things last time here we did talk a bit about his fandom but I just like to understand a little bit more how you became a fan and then why you have stuck as being a fan so I inherited my fandom very very

12:36 much from my father in fact I did calculate that on the evening I was born um 2 minutes before I was born my dad would have been in the father's waiting room watching a repeat of the sun makers part three and uh in fact he can remember um coming home from rugby training as a boy in the UK and watching the first episode of Doctor Who and then watching it all the way through so when I was a a boy literally from when I you know came home from the hospital Doctor Who was on uh my dad was a shift worker so he had offir copies of stuff that he missed cuz he was out doing night shifts that night Target novels were on the shelves before I was even born and in the house so I just arrived in the household with Doctor Who paraphernalia all around and I don't don't think I had a choice but to watch Doctor Who but but

13:22 it absolutely grabbed me and I can remember watching I can remember images of stories going out from when I was must have been two 3 four years old and watching them right so so is he dead around is he still a doctor who fan my dad's still around he's still a doctor who fan um in in fact um it was quite wonderful it's now 10 years ago but when the web of fear and enemy of the world were discovered and released um it was quite wonderful to ring him up and say hey guess what's happened today and I've got copies of these stories would you like me to come around and you know watch them together and he had very good memories of season 5 because he saw them all when they were transmitted in the UK then got on a plane to Australia moved to Tasmania and then sort of a year

14:09 later they all were broadcast on the ABC again so he got to see season five go out twice and um actually had some reasonable memories of that which was kind of cool wow I didn't know you had a Tasmanian connection what's what's the story behind that yeah so when when my dad's family all uh immigrated to Australia they all moved to leston so I've had a grandmother-in-law in ceston for a long time she's no longer with us but still got uncles and cousins and well that sort of thing in Tasmania and King Island so yeah my my dad's family is um split between Melbourne and Tasmania well there you go oh well next time you come to visit family in leston I'm up the road fantastic now in terms of Nas and the books how did you how did the books come how old were you when the books started coming out because if if you were born

14:55 during the sun makers that's actually making you feel a bit old the sun makers I'm I'm I'm actually contemporary with season 18 rather than 15 but as you know we got repeats all the time so that was what was on that knife uh look so the new adventures came out when I was about 11 and finished when I was 178 so they very perfectly sort of covered my high school years my teenage years exactly the right place for me at exactly the right time but I I had joined the local Doctor Who club with my dad um a few years earlier and as you guys probably remember from your own time in Doctor Who fom in Australia a big part of that was oh we've got the broadcast episodes out 2 years before the ABC showing them so you know I remember watching the McCoy era in you know Dusty Halls somewhere with a whole

15:41 bunch of fans years before they were on the OBC and then of course suddenly all that stopped and there was that sense of what does the club do now what are fan going to do now and then we got the announcement from Target that they were going to start doing original novels and I can just remember them absolutely filling the hearts of fans in terms of new Doctor Who coming out as you alluded to earlier Dwayne it it really was treated as serious new Doctor Who we waited to see what titles were going to come out what authors they were going to be about and then you'd get the synopsis and then you get the cover art and it was just like getting trailers for the new show today and then a new book would drop and people would read it and because we're all Doctor Who fans they instantly assigned the status of classic

16:27 or terrible um with nothing in between and and they were discussed and they were debated and we did look forward to them in exactly the same way and there's certainly books that I read when I was 11 12 13 that I just didn't get or didn't appreciate uh and in some cases I've gone back and read them as an adult and got more out of them but but as I was going through my teenage years I absolutely was was reading them and the missing adventures and that was knew who for me it was the ear of the show that I really grew up with in my teenage years and one of the other reasons why so special to me is in the same way that like a lot of us Target novels got us into and got me into reading as a young boy it was the new adventures that got me into the concept of original science fiction and and spin-off books so after

17:14 sort of discovering that oh Doctor Who's got new stories I'm like hang on Star Trek's got this whole range of original books as well and red dwarf's got original books that are based on the series and Star Wars has got original books you know i' going to be buying the new Dr new adventure and there's the um air to the Empire Trilogy by Timothy AR I'm going oh these are great and they what turned me into a Star Wars fan I still think that set of books is better than anything that Star Wars has done in any other genre so the new adventures really did fill the spot for me as a teenager but really did just open me up to a whole other world in in different shows as well what's did you have a preference for Virgin new adventures uh Missing You Know past doctor Advent Ur or eighth doctor Adventures any

18:01 preference um at the time I probably felt most comfortable with the missing Adventures because they were a lot more like the original TV show some of them weren't quite as adult and and you know some of those new adventures did go into Concepts that I was too young to really understand or appreciate or enjoy whereas the missing Adventures were a bit safer um but over the years it's been the new adventures that I've really come back to and they're the ones that I sort of see as def finding that era I was going to ask what what is the history of the new adventures to the to the missing Adventures know what the how they came about yeah so they originally started doing the new adventures once every two months and then they realized that Doctor Who fans basically would buy anything they put out so they made them

18:47 monthly pretty quickly and they suddenly I think just had this Revelation that well why do we have to do all our new books with the McCoy doctor we can do it with past doctors there's nothing to say we can't and so they opened it up and it was probably about I want to say about 25ish books in into the new adventures range when they spun them off to the missing adventures and um I think that gave different fans different things to look for and it also gave authors different things to be able to do Gary Russell has said for example that the moment they said he could write for previous doctors and write nice stories like the classic show he's said right I'm never writing a new adventure again I'm off to go down that rabbit hole and write for the um the third

19:33 doctor and the second doctor and all those eras I love and you know Gareth Robert went and wrote a whole bunch of stuff for the SE the the fourth doctor in season 17 which are you know regarded as some of the best of the range and it also meant that the people riding for the new adventures could go right all that old school stuff is being taken care of in the missing Adventures we can really take the new adventures wherever we like now because different types of fans and different needs being ated for but at that point vir was doing two books a month I was about ask were they doing two books a month they were yeah that's a that's astounding amount of prod product isn't it yeah it absolutely is and I mean you guys would appreciate getting them imported sometimes from the UK was expensive and what started as

20:18 sort of $102 books by the time the range was getting to the end they were 20 $24 each so you could easily spend the better part of 50 bucks on books a month which did make it hard for a few fans yeah try getting them now though yes they were good Investments if you could I you're prepared to sell them most do fans are prepared to sell them true so in terms of if you I know you want if you had a couple of favorites what would in terms of new adventures missing Adventures what what would be the couple of Classics you'd say anyone who hasn't read any before she rigged uh look for the missing Adventures I would go with something like um The Killing ground which is a Colin Baker novel that features the Cyberman and it's a very very well

21:05 regarded book um but also Gareth Roberts the plotters and the romance of crime and the first is with the first doctor and the others with the fourth doctor uh they're both very good books that really um reflect the eras that they're written in uh in terms of the new adventures my favorites include Nightshade bad therapy time wom exodus by Terence dicks and the higher science which is one of the reasons why I suggest to this be one of the adaptions we cover excellent okay we're looking forward to talk to about that then brilliant all right well let's get on to that then the highest science we're going to talk about the big finished adaption um and or is it adaptation it's the big finished adaptation Dwayne get it right um I will read a blur for that before we

21:50 get into it and then I'll play a trailer the highest science the Pinnacle of knowledge and a terrible weapon a legend nothing more sheld Ducker the world the most wanted criminal in the Galaxy evil to the core and hungry for power whatever the cost the chelonians a vast military power pledged to eradicate human parasites wherever they are found the doctor an ancient and wise Time Lord tracking a temporal fluctuation that endangers the universe itself something should never meet but as Professor Summerfield is about to discover the universe is full of coincidences coming soon from Big finish Productions Doctor Who the highest

22:38 science we're close to the center of the for in activity when the Fus starts up again the exact sour should register here good all the leeping can stop and we can do something interesting when do I get to meet some monsters never hopefully may have spoken too soon couple of giant tortoises over there still they're friendly tonian okay nothing I when you've been a soldier as long as I have you can smell parasites from the other side of a black hole forward we shall crush the spineless fleshies and our Mighty claws oh you're shucker my mother used to say you had

23:24 scal green skinin and terrible hosis really it seems the reports of my breath have been greatly exaggerated second pilot report the success of your attack immediately no this can't be happening the whole division lost what's happening the psychic shock of contact with me incapacitated the subject's physical body the might has now shielded itself then break through the shield I will try but it is strong I must know the highest science ask it about the highest science wouldn't it be best to leave well alone Mighty civilization brought down by terrible Discovery I know there are loads of versions of the sac crap

24:10 myth but that's a common factor in all of them so maybe just forgetting about the higher science would be a good idea I'm afraid I can't just ignore a f and flicker I suppose not although sometimes doctor I wish you wouldn't treat the universe like it was your own personal responsibility big finish we love stories the highest science the facts and the trivia written by Gareth Roberts adapted by Jacqueline rer recorded January 2014 and released December 2014 starring Sylvester McCoy is the Seventh Doctor Lisa Bowman is Bernie Summerfield also starring Daniel broback Cade kinnan which I should we should know from uh the Tom last David 10 story Rihanna McDonald Sarah ens James Baxter

24:57 and Tom Bell directed by Scott Hancock produced by Gavin Scott the scriptor was Matt fitton the sound designer was Neil Gardner and music by Howard Carter covered by Mark plau the highest science was the 11th book released in the new adventure range and it began the monthly release of books from there on in it was published in 1993 by virgin publishing it was going to be adapted into the 2009 Doctor Who Easter special on the TV show but the concept was altered into the Planet of the Dead which became Gareth Roberts and R Davis's joint script together this is the first appearance of the chelonian race which are cybernetic humanoid torers who would appear in other spin-off novels and be made can in the TV show when they're referenced by the Matt Smith Doctor in the panda opens

25:44 this is one of the spaceships circling above him this was written by Gareth Roberts and it was his first contribution to the new adventure range uh he Gareth has also written four full episodes of Doctor Who the Shakespeare code in 2007 the unicorn of the in 2008 the lodge in 2010 and closing time in 2011 and he co-wrote plan of the Dead by RTD and 2014 the caretaker with show runner Steven mufford he's also written several sah Jane Smith stories lots of spin-offs but also for soaps including coronation student in amdale and he's had a pretty huge career actually until fairly recently uh and that's the facts and the trivia thank you for that philli um Dave I was going to ask you uh for each of these stories why you chose them you

26:30 said it was one of your favorites so can you give us a bit more detail as to why this one in particular is a favorite of yours yeah so I thought this was a good one to pick both because it is a favorite story that I know well but also because I think this was one of the or or the co first of the big finish novel adaption ranges so it was good to sort of book in that when we get to Cold Fusion which was the last so far this is a story that when I read the book when I was 133 absolutely captured my imagination it's a it's just such a doctor who story and such a mcer story as well the idea that the doctor rocks up on a strange planet with strange time disturbances meets a bunch of militaristic humanoid tortoises plus the mysterious 812s plus you know a galactic criminal and his

27:17 orac like cell wandering around um just a whole bunch of different plots that went in there it sort of mixes the Mystic and the Sci-Fi it's got clever ideas but it's just just a really clever and fun adventure and I think sometimes the books were either trying too hard to do something new or different or just didn't quite work and just sometimes forgot to first and foremost be a fun adventure and I thought this is just an absolute cracking Doctor Who adventure and and done you know without a budget which is a big benefit of books and indeed audios although in different ways which I'll talk about a bit later I really love Gareth Robert's style of um humor that seems to come through in all

28:03 his stories he has a very quirky quirky sense of humor and um I I enjoy that aspect of it I'm curious to know because the Virgin new adventures artwork was pretty iconic and on the big finish artwork you get um the chelonians looking pretty different to they did on the on the book cover so how did you feel about about that change Dave I think that you're always on a bit of a hiding to nothing when you're trying to depict something that lives in the imagination and I've got to admit the chelonians and I've always pronounced it with a soft CH rather than a hard chair until lower on TV so forgive me if I say chelonians rather

28:48 than chelonians a few times but for me the chelonians um lived in my mind as they were on the book cover and sounded I don't know what they sounded like in my mind um it was certainly nothing like the electronic effect voice that they had when the big finish adaption um so that that took a bit of getting used to and but you know they're never going to do exactly it was in my imagination that's just how would you do that so how did you I've I've asked this of fans of the books before um the the voice of Benny Summerfield the voice that you had in your head through the 90s how does Lisa Balman compare to that voice is she similar she is actually yes I I found it very easy to listen to Lisa Balman as

29:35 Ben Summerfield it fitted in really really well I think they cast her fantastically and that's probably the strength of the range and why they've adapted a whole bunch of other ones what did you think of the story Phillip um I've always had it's always been relationship with the novel adaptions because it feels like it's trying to contain too much um and so it's always interesting hearing the audio because the IDS are just huge the characterizations are big they're trying to because of the budget they've got um obviously it's a very big cast that they're trying to manipulate well um but that being said I think I think the cold fusion has an even bigger issue in terms of cast numbers with number of roles um so in terms of just

30:22 it's just such a mammoth and big story which you can tell you can tell it in a book from would well um Gareth Roberts writing I have always enjoyed I I didn't mention because of course he um he wrote Sharda when they decided to publish Sharda as a Target novel he did the version of Tada and he gets Douglas Adams humor so well it's a really fun book isn't it it's a very fun book it's yeah it's a brilliant adaption and and I laughed all the way through Shard reading the book was I just laughed all the way through I it was so cleverly done um and there's moment in this which it just picks up the humor very well Benny part of the took me out is is Benny's obviously very new and young in this story like it's I think in the

31:08 novel adaptions it's her third story so it's love and Wars I think what the second one is I look it up Transit I think Transit that's s's rice and this this was would only be her third story but she's very much sounding like the older Benny that we have because I mean Benny by this stage had done uh what this 2014 um so 50 years we've had Benny around doing series of Benny so she's trying to go back to being her very young self and we don't just had Love and War come out because this is the second audio adap noral adaption they've done they did Love and War for Benny's that's right yeah I think that must have been for her 15th anniversary or something they decided to release Love and War and that went down so well that's why they came up with higher science I do think Benny and the Seventh Doctor play off really well with each

31:53 other and as it was some big Concepts but some you know War t and lots of guns so there's bits of it that aren't very Doctor Who and in some ways sylvest is not as manipulative as I think he does get um as we're going to see in cold fusion um but nevertheless I think it's it's big scale so I'm actually curious in terms what D see in terms of Novel to adaption um have they have they had to cut out story lines or have they reduced plots what what are the changes they had to make to make it fit a novel uh yeah I can answer that or do we want to get drained Dwayne's opinion first well I I struggle with novel adaptations because of that I I get a sense whenever I'm listening to them that they are so densely packed with

32:39 story that I'm not I'm not getting all of the story and I I don't know whether it's I'm subconsciously going well this is a book I should have read the book or whether there is just too much information in there for me to for me to take in the novel adaptations are not your typical big finish Audio Drama they are trying to cram in all that information from the books and I struggle a little bit myself with that so that's that's how I feel about the adaptations I enjoy them but um I do struggle with them a little bit yeah I did wonder if that was going to be the case because I know when I was listening to the higher science again for ahead of this podcast there were definitely moments when something would happen and I could go oh that's that bit of the

33:25 book starting to happen or that's that plot of the book starting to happen but I wasn't sure whether that would be really obvious to somebody who was listening for the first time um I think it's fascinating because as you say you're always going to struggle putting an entire 250 300 Page book into an audio drama and although we sort of like to think that the benefits of both audio and books is that they don't have the budget limitations that the TV shows do so you can go off in other places as you just said for you do still have a budget for an audio um it's a different kind budget but you do still have one and um I I I think you do see that reflected here I think you see it reflected in um or consuming fire which you guys have covered before in a much bigger way where you whole alien Landscapes sort of

34:11 lost but but here they were quite good um they kept all the plot elements of the book intact but reduced all of those elements down somewhat so for example sheld Decker who basically just has one accomplice with him the entire time in the in the audios he actually has three accomp for most of the book so Cliff who's killed quite quickly in the audio is around much longer and uh Shel de also has another heavy that walks around him so that that little bit of the plot has been brought down a bit and and just as a side note I'm very very disappointed I didn't cast Paul Dar to play Shel DEA he would have been fantastic yes wow he would have been totally agree he would have been awesome he would have been perfect for that um uh Benny's plot with um the the young

34:56 lady that she meets that's going to the Rock concert he again had two friends with him in the book and they have a much larger plot and and indeed uh there's a whole sort of drug addiction thing that goes on there because they've found this drinks dispenser of um Bubble shake that they sort of start drinking from not realizing that it's an addictive drink from the future and that goes down a whole different sort of Spin and bendy goes through withdrawal and that sort of thing and I don't know whether that was taken out of the adaption because um of budgetary reasons or because of the content but uh that was an element that was definitely taken out and you know the chelonians do a little bit less the 812s do a little bit less and there's also just a few less little sides um Gareth Roberts is very good at doing those in the book so for

35:42 example the uh adaption does open with the chelonian attack on another world where they're wiping out a human colony and then they get transported Away by the for um for in flicker in the book there's a whole little sort of followup where the colonists decide that divine intervention has saved them from these attackers and so when the next lot of chelonians rock up to finish the job they don't even bother defending themselves cuz there's like that's all right God's going to sld us all out or whatever this thing is going to sort us out and then they will get wiped out so of little sides that are sort of quite enjoyable and quite funny a little bit dark that you obviously can't just slip into an already complicated adaption so you lose little things like that but but yeah all the plot strands are there they're just all compacted a little bit

36:28 I I would suggest that it would be uh probably due to BBC policy to remove the addiction stuff that I I would say that was why it was removed more than anything that would and they would have grabbed that and gone oh great we we have to remove that because of the policy and we can strip it down a bit anyway because of that so Jack Rainer probably was counting a blessings for having something that she could remove out of it to you know to streamline it a little bit sorry philli no see a sh came across a bit black and white as a villain like he just he was just all bad um in the book is he a bit more complex or is he always just the fanatical madman I wouldn't say that he's a bit more complex but they do go into his

37:15 backstory a lot more and um they talk about his motivations a lot more where that he um he becomes a psychopath as a child quite early basically out of boredom and um that sort of whole back story is gone into so he's not a more complicated character in terms of what the plot delivers he's quite he's quite driven and quite fanatical by the time he gets to the plot of the higher signs but they do give him some backstory that adds a bit more to that yeah okay and actually that's true of all the characters that they've all sort of suffered from uh need to pressed into an hour and a half story yeah I mean General frawood is is another example that where you you get some of those bits of the plot to explore the fact that he lost his eggs because of

38:01 the um effects of one of the weapons but that's a really big part of the whole book that sort of goes through the fact that he's a very proud mother and he is's very proud of his um his um Fundy and and the number of eggs that he can have and how many hatchlings he's had in battle and all the rest then the fact that he's now lost a hatchling is you know kind of wearing him down and driving a bit insane and that that sort of adds a whole lot of stuff that I mean just would have been a other layer you couldn't do it in an adaption although they do valiantly try to depict it I I was impressed by that yeah yes I mean this is the second time I've listened to it recently and certainly there's a lot more stuff I picked up and enjoyed a lot more because I I kind of knew where it was going um Scott hanock director

38:49 Dwayne anything you comment on well yeah he's always very competent as a director always uh gets the the best out of his company and um yeah no no complaints from anything with the with the sound design uh Direction cast I I enjoyed the casting of sheler actually but um despite it not being Paul daro you put him in my put it in my head now it would have been he would have been awesome um because it's a role perfectly perfect for him uh but yeah all all very all very good uh there are some huge differences in the in the music for this compared to

39:35 the music to Cold Fusion that I want to talk about because um pick up that I'm going to talk about the music in Cold Fusion more than anything uh that that stuck that grabbed me but we'll get to that soon um yeah the main thing is when I finish listening to this I found myself going what the heck's going on I'm going to tardus Wiki and I'm looking at the whole plot summary for the book I okay so that was missing that was missing yep now I now I kind of get it the 40 and flicker was interesting found out other interesting facts like the chelonians were supposed to be used in Planet of the Dead um but they didn't want to dress them up in duby because they would have been too hot in their outfits um so that would have been that would have been really cool to have them in Planet of the Dead too and the 4 and

40:21 flicker is the kind of thing that the bus went through um so I kind of was able to comprehend the the for and flicker a little bit more he always sounded funny when he said for and flicker didn't he Sylvester it was a it was a funny term but probably would have read better than it sounded coming from you it it probably would have I so I'm interested to know because one of my favorite things about the book and the adaption that I think does come through well is that twist at the end that um skra actually has been just created and set as a trap for Shell deer in the end and that all these coincidence that you think are really really bizarre are actually deliberate is they're drawing sheld DEA into this trap and it's all about you think him and then you find out it's not even about him it's about the cell did that come through for you on your listen or was that a bit too

41:08 complicated as well that's part of the book no that did come through that did come through was just all those different elements coming together what the forth flicker actually was um that that kind of thing but I understood the yeah I understood the plot behind behind the whole reason for that place being there so they could trap shelder or Draw him there and get the cell back that's I do think it was rushed I do think that he really had to be paying close attention because it's it's because these are so dense because they're coming from books you really can't be doing anything else um and it was yeah I I really need to sit down pay attention take notes to be on top of this because it was other audios I can

41:53 you know I can eyon or I can cook while I'm listening um for this one I actually had to just stop and pay attention because I was missing too much I could tell if I wasn't paying close attention taking notes I was going to miss things um because it's denseness which isn't a bad thing but I think a lot of people were there for missed St but I think it was a very clever um ending how it all came together a lot of the book felt Douglas adamsy I think a lot of the way he was playing the characters a lot of the way he moved things and then the whole denouncement at the end um I think that all came across very um dougas adamsy which I liked I actually I was just going to comment on the music by Howard Carter because you know I'm a huge fan of har Carter's music um which actually gave this a very modern feel so

42:41 this felt like the music and the sound design gave it a modern Doctor Who story feel which I think I assume we're going to discuss the difference in Cold Fusion because there was a very different feel to that um but once again I mean I just love Howard card's music and it was orchestral it was big it was dramatic um it was more of a movie score than a you know I say more modern TV show rather than Seventh Doctor it was certainly was a Seventh Doctor score in any way but neveress had some really great themes and um some nice Rifts for the different characters as they came in out which I I appreciated it yeah how's like the Murray gold of big finish isn't he he is well I I I mean our American friend I think is probably slightly more so um

43:26 lovely theme song Joe Kramer um yeah Joe I think yeah Joe's even bigger but how how is up there Howard and Joe are the two um strong themes orchestral big musicians and um they come across well yeah I actually had a question for you that that's related to that because as I was listening to this I was trying to work out where they pitched the Seventh Doctor because obviously for a lot of other eras you can put them into a complete era that was complete on TV whereas the S doctor's era stops on TV but keeps going in the new adventures and I assume in in well I know that in the audio Adventures as well he has this whole long protracted era before he gets to being the eighth doctor where did you feel that this was sort of set in that Seventh Doctor timeline because you're

44:13 right it didn't it didn't feel like the on screen Seventh Doctor era how did it come across for you guys to me it came across sort of in the middle of his era not not the end when he's by himself and just before he's about to regenerate into the eighth doctor but sort of more in the middle mainly because of Benny I think you got that whole Benny era that's there that she comes after Ace or she's there there they aren't they together at first and then ace off is that how it works oh no they do they do one story together which is Love and War and I believe Ace comes back later on as a war sort of strong kick kick ass woman is that right in the novels yeah yeah so um AC is in the first first nine books and then has her

44:59 falling out in Love and War and goes up and does her own thing and Benny joins the Tardis crew then there's three or four books um Transit hind SS the pit and then deceit so there's only three stand lines with the S doctr Benny which is then when Ace is reintroduced having been in Starfleet for several years and become battle hardened and Turbo Ace and all those sort of things and then there's a whole bunch of books several years worth of books for the two of them together um and then leaves in set piece we get a bunch of standland Benny's before she leaves in Happy Endings yeah okay it's only so Benny's with the doctor except for the first eight or nine novels it's just Ben and Ace throughout the entire range of virgins no no um Ros and Chris are

45:45 introduced just before Benny leaves and they they see out the range after Benny leaves but they don't transfer into the new Range what happens after what happens after Virgil loses it's um they go to eighth doctor then don't they and BBC do the BBC produce what's the history what happens after new Ventures and uh yeah so basically in the leadup to the Telly movie coming out virgin loses the license um and they've got about another 18 months on their license to go but they told it's not going to be renewed so after the TV movie they go for about another year and during that time uh Ros is um killed off Chris is then written out and then the Seventh Doctor regenerat and then we have one eth doctor book with Benny as a guest star and then the Virgin novels

46:31 stop and the BBC books pick up with the e um the eight doctors okay and do they do still do past Adventures or they stop as well uh yes so the Virgin or also stop the missing Adventures um they they lose their license to do fiction completely and the bbca picks up the past doctor Adventures okay so so yeah it transitioned from entirely virgin to entirely BBC about a year so that's so that's how you refer to it so the Virgin is missing adventures and BBC is past doctor is that how you y That's Right gotta do you do do you feel a transition in the novels or do they carry so many of the authors over you can't tell the difference no it's it's a massive massive um wrench uh although some of the authors do um transfer across the

47:18 BBC basically hits the reset button so a lot of the um style and tone and plot threads that have been built up across the course of the new adventures are basically just stopped and we go back to a very safe friendly uh set of Doctor Who books that are very accessible very new so if you came to the BBC books with no knowledge of the Virgin books you you would be okay um they then start to build up their own Cannon and their own Direction and go into some quite complicated places but no I mean one of the reasons why people like myself didn't really get into the eight doctor Adventures at the time was was we sort of felt like we'd spent six or seven years really investing in this timeline and this this this Saga and suddenly it

48:05 was just all gone and we had to go back to square one and it sort of felt like you know you'd run three quarters of a marathon and told I back to the start again so you didn't transition to the BBC books I I bought some of them and I did read some of them but I didn't read them all and by that time I was you know going off to UNI and doing the thing that all Doctor Who fans do in their early 20s where they leave the show behind um not least because you know by the time we get to 98 99 as far as W knew knew Doctor Who was dead so you know it was time to move on from fandom and go watch babyon 5 um now you asked in terms of where I felt this fell in the 7th doctor era um it really is hard to place because even even the big finish range it doesn't fit in nicely anywhere um as I think there

48:52 was a number of there's a few Benny and Ace stories early with big finish this the shadow of the scourge only two two Shadow The Scourge be being an excellent example that's probably the best one the other one was a bit more yeah um but the shadow Scourge is is utterly brilliant but that's that's the battle hardened Ace and uh more cynical um Benny uh and and a more manipulative Seventh Doctor too he he's not quite manipulative enough in this in terms of anywhere so it's in some ways that the the Seventh Doctor is almost his first season in terms of niceness and how he's carrying on this sort of feels to me it doesn't feel like he's he's Min himself he becomes later

49:38 on so it is actually really hard to try and place where he is because it doesn't fit really well it's a very stand I felt a very Standalone portrayal of the Seventh Doctor yeah and I think that GTH Roberts is actually leading into that a bit in that he's saying okay we've started to build up both on the TV show but now in the in in the Virgin new Ventures the idea of the very dark manipulative doctor and I think Gareth just sort of says but now we started to do that let's just have one where he hasn't planned it and he doesn't know what's going on and let's just see how he copes with that and in some ways he actually doesn't cope that well and he actually doesn't resolve all the plot threads uh satisfactory in the end which I think I think it's just a really interesting take of you know what happens when the seventh doctor hasn't plant it all from the Star yeah yeah I

50:24 mean there's things that once again I suspect the novel does better like when Benny loses her friend when he dies gets crushed by the by the mountain um you can see that they obviously wanted to take that on an emotional Journey somewhere because this is you know Benny having to deal with death of a companion but they didn't get there I felt it felt like they started the journey but they didn't have time to finish it off did the book do that scene better and more powerfully it was actually very very different um he and his friends are basically probed by the Guardians that are are guarding the The Fortress or or whatever it is and because of the effects of that they actually turn on each other and I think there's like a murder suicide that goes on to to write the MTH so it's actually very very different and I think that that plot threat as we discussed is by far the one

51:11 they've toned down the most in in in here because you know drug addiction and murder suicide is not something you do on a BBC licensed audio you don't do much anyway actually but there you go okay hey it was the 90s what the all right let's move on to the next story that we're going to review this is the big finish adaptation of cold fusion I'll read a blur a newly regenerated Fifth Doctor arrives on an occupied ice planet where the Seventh Doctor is investigating dangerous energy experiments conducted by the Earth Empire but events spin out of control when a refugee from the distant past arrives patients the doctor's wife

51:58 coming soon from Big finish Productions Doctor Who novel adaptations who's there good afternoon lovely weather looks like it might snow later cold fusion shall we explore life here is Harsh resources are scarce I thought they'd be civilized in the future Target acquired no thanks to the scientifica this planet was one of the most harmonious in the Empire they need a peacekeeping force you found yourself in the middle of a serious security incident you nearly collapsed a Time disturbance it was like being caught in a Hurrican we wish to probe other dimensional states to tap into dimensional energy my friends and I have been on this planet for 6 weeks trying to discover exactly why the adjudicators

52:45 are massing their forces here and what the scientific is working on how can I help that's a ray shielded door what's behind that a recent arrival classified research heavy security from science project someone here has been manipulating events ever since we arrived I don't recognize this man oh hello andri it's a big machine it's got to be at least a kilometer High completely embedded in the Rock hello there don't worry I'm the doctor no no you aren't Chief scientist something's moving in there enhanced audio what is it what what is it Chief

53:33 scientist we finish we love stories hold Fusion the facts and the trivia written and adapted by Lance Parkins recorded May 2016 and released December 2016 staring Sylvester mcco is the Seventh Doctor and Peter Davis as the fifth doctor and then we have a ton of companions Matthew wouse as adrick Sarah sattin as Nissa Janet Fielding as T javanka Yasmin banman as Ros fester and Travis Oliver as Chris CR I hope I pronounce it properly also starring Peter corfield Jeremy Hitchin Christine kaver and Sharon moan Mahan I'm playing about 50 RS between the four of them directed and produced by Jamie Anderson script edit editor by John Dorney sound

54:19 design by Kelly Ellis and full circle Productions Music by full circle Productions covered by Tom new the play is based on the missing adventure story cold fusion by Lance Parkins uh that book was released on the 29th was the 29th release of Vis Adventures released in December 1996 uh Lance says he wanted to contrast the differences between the fifth and the seventh doctors and he also wanted to show how adric could work well with another doctor because he doesn't work well with Peter Davidson's doctor and that's the facts of the trivia so this was a few months after the TV movie I guess if it was 1996 end of the year so um I I'll just say this about cold fusion I enjoyed listening to this more

55:05 than the higher science but I understood it and what was going on in it less there are all these different elements going on in Cold Fusion that I love I love listening to all the different bits but listening to it trying to put it together in my head was next to Impossible Dave could you tell me what was going on in this story please well I'm actually relating a lot to to what you said there after um Phil and I had a chat over over WhatsApp and agreed that this would be the second one we'll discuss tonight I downloaded it on my big finish app and realized it was 192 minutes and wasn't quite sure what I was going to be in for Rel listening to it um but then I listened to the first three or four episodes out of six and thought this is Flowing so so well this is exciting this is fun the doctors are

55:53 great um it it it hasn't got quite some of the aspects of the book and we'll talk about that but I was really enjoying it but then by the time I got to the end of episode 6 I also had a bit of a feeling of what was that about and uh I you know I I I get enough of what was going on but there was definitely some stuff that struggled to really be understood and and that last episode that sixth episode I think it all does fall in a bit of a heap um and it does lose a few aspects of of of of the book there but the ride was fun the ride was definitely fun you know what I went to tarus Wiki and I read the plot that's that's up there for the audio there isn't a plot on the book on tius Wiki strangely

56:40 enough there's probably a plot somewhere else that I could see but I but I didn't look that far and I still didn't understand what was going on after reading the plot summary so I I still need to know what happened so look look there is a bit of an answer to that question but curious to get Phil's take on it before I dive that far in okay I I do I mean first I was surprised with six episodes but we got to the end of the fourth episode oh there's another two episodes uh it did surprise me I mean I had noticed how long it was but I just thought it was going to be lots of extras um and so it's unusual to get a six-part big finish story so that itself was was unusual um but youly by by the beginning of episode four I was thinking I can't see how this is going to wrap up um I

57:26 really enjoyed I enjoyed the interplay between the characters hugely um there were certainly stuff I because because I mean yasman banman I think is an amazing actress and we've had her on the podcast and she is just an absolute Joy of a person um I mean she I think we laughed the whole time didn't we D we were talking to her because all we did was laugh at her um with her um she's one of the funniest people I think we've we've just had a chance to talk and so I'd love so excited to be playing all these characters too because she was also cast as Dana in um Blake seven Blake seven yeah and um yeah she's just so excited to be having and she's a science she's a Sci-Fi fan too so to be playing these roles which just so exciting for her yeah so I saw the new

58:13 Ros but Chris CR and I know we've had him in a couple other audios as well stories but I I didn't get I didn't pick up at all that he was Bruce um javanka javanka is such a non-australian name but anyone overseas tranka is not Australian I don't know where where on Earth um Nathan Turner came up with that name is beyond meu it's Yugoslav there you go but Bruce Bruce is Bruce is a traditional I I don't I should say that my um my cousin's husband is Bruce but it's it's not a it's a joke Australian name but it isn't used that often really I don't think but I didn't get the fact that who he was and so I had a whole episode of this Australian and trying to work out what's going on and why is why is Janet

58:59 feelings that he's not Australian thinking well he sounds like any other Australian that big FID ever have on including her oh that's harsh I I really couldn't tell the difference with that yeah the Dreadful Australian accent which I don't think any of us have but maybe people listening to this will disagree with this no this like tons and tons of English accent coming through through that Australian but if you're in if you're English you're got to obviously pick up on it yeah so I did really enjoy the interplay understanding that um I do think adric and the Seventh Doctor work so well together I do know what Lance Park was in saying in terms of you know Peter Davidson and adrick don't work the fifth doct and seventh adri don't work and I think that's true I I really do think they don't work together I think

59:44 adrick with Tom Baker ma Matthew with Tom Baker was a different actor Tom as much as he hated Tom Tom made him lift and he was and they he was written better with Tom he the character was better handled and Matthew played him better and certainly as soon as he goes with Peter it falls apart in lots of ways yeah I was a big adrick fan when I was a kid and I still am and I really like Matthew Waterhouse as a person having met him I I agree I think that particularly in track and and lopolis that Mentor telemus relationship between the fourth doctor and AD is just wonderful and so well done and it instantly falls down when the doctor's age you know harves um so yeah know I I do agreee with that I I do admit for

1:00:29 when I was listening to that part one I did sit there and and very quickly I've gone oh that's right he's pretending to be Bruce janker that's Chris and um I did sort of wonder what someone who didn't know that would make of that because particularly given I mean I mean Chris quid is not a particularly big character in other big finishes is he noan he's he's been in two I he's been no big finish shows at all he's been in two other adaptions yeah so I think they did do a box set they did a Seventh Doctor box set featuring Chris and Ros but it was a volume one there was only ever a volume one they never did anymore oh that's right I forgot about that that was actually really good it a really good box set actually it was great yeah because it was written specifically for audio it wasn't an adaptation so um so

1:01:16 it was better suited for audio Yeah so I suspect there's a lot of people if you don't know who Chris is you don't get that he's pretending to be someone else that's a big big disadvantage to to go back to Dwayne's question the big thing that I remember taking away from this book at the time and that I remember being the big discussion in phandom in the at the time is that it was less about the plot and it's more about the doctors and in particular it was quite Infamous for this very overt contrast between the fifth doctor and the Seventh Doctor to the point where a large part of the book is the fifth doctor actually getting quite distressed worked up and concerned about the sort of person he can see that

1:02:02 he's going to become and not not approving of the way the Seventh Doctor operates and it's also a lot clearer in the book that the Seventh Doctor remembers the events from the fifth doctor's point of view and therefore he's manipulating everybody including his former self to put them in the places because he knows what's going to happen um but it's also very very contrasted that and you don't really get this either in the adaption that basically the fifth doctor and the Seventh Doctor look at the same conflict and almost take different sides they almost take opposite sides in the conflict because their values are differently aligned and so a lot of the plot in the book actually just exists to serve those Dynamics and I think that when you haven't quite got those

1:02:48 Dynamics happening the plot looks a little bit more um it perhaps struggles to stand up as well as it does with all that going on yeah I think I think they tried to do that in the final scene when you know the big bad's trapped in the time Loop and and Peter Davidson's doctor apologizes for what's happened to him and but it actually makes it actually makes the fifth doctor look weak and I and I it is it is what Peter Davis's doctor would do it is what the fifth doctor would do I think it's actually true to character but it is when you have the fifth and the seventh next to each other I do actually think the fifth doctor looks weak and in fact I I became more approving of rest his doctor and MN his side in how he was handling it in terms of the decision he was making than the fifth which I wouldn't have thought

1:03:33 normally that would be the side I would have taken so I I don't know how much

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