EP155 | LIMA ‘25, Pencen 65 Tahun, Pengharaman Vape, Sidang Kemuncak ASEAN, Petronas-Petros

0:00 Right now, we are in a situation that requires some fiscal discipline. We, in this term, I don't see PMX and the Unity Government touching on the pension issue. Assalamualaikum and welcome to episode 155 of Keluar Sekejap, with me, KJ.

0:48 And I'm Shahril Hamdan. Shahril, I wasted 2 hours last night. Why? Because I was sleeping soundly but, In the car? Huh? In the car or what? No? No, at home. At home. Why in the car? I thought with this ASEAN jam, there have been all sorts of complaints about traffic. Exactly, we'll touch on ASEAN later. But last night, I had to wake up at 3:00 AM because my team had a European final. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Some teams, like Shahril's team, didn't make it to the European final, but my team did. But what was the result? But, but it was a waste of time. It's truly embarrassing because we gifted Tottenham Hotspurs their first win; they haven't won a trophy in 18 years. Hmm. And we were the ones to give them the Europa League.

1:34 But the Europa League has lost its shine now. No, no, but it's a... it's an access into the Champions League. That's it. That's it. I feel, in my opinion, it's not fair. Because previously, KJ, those who entered the Europa League included those who finished 3rd in their Champions League group; they would then enter the Europa League. So, the Europa League winner had quality. Even the two teams that made it to this final weren't of high quality. If we had won yesterday, I would say to you, tough luck. But now I agree with you. Spurs should be in the Champions League, not next year. Anyway, this episode, we have a new strategic partner, which is MyData SSM. MyData SSM is an online platform that connects users to verified corporate and business data from the Companies Commission of Malaysia (SSM).

2:27 They were appointed as an official service provider for SSM since 2016, and MyData SSM operates under a public-private partnership model to encourage innovation, improve service delivery, and address public sector constraints through integrated digital solutions. Shahril, MyData SSM. Right now, because we're at KS, and certainly Shahril, as someone involved in private equity, we are always looking for companies that we want to either buy, invest in, or collaborate with. And sometimes, we need to be wary of scams because Malaysians get scammed easily. So, I want to...

3:13 The political ones? Politics, business, everything. Love, all get scammed. Yes, true. So, MyData SSM is an online service, where anyone needing corporate information or information available at SSM, can go to MyData SSM. No need to go to SSM, queue at the counter, then fill out forms, only then get the information. Online, conduct online transactions at MyData SSM, and get all the information available at SSM regarding the company in question. Yes. Correct, because the data is already available in the Companies Commission of Malaysia. But this is about accessibility.

4:01 And its use cases, the ways to use MyData SSM, this digital platform, are varied; not just to avoid becoming victims of scams in any investment offers and so on, but also other things: job offers, if someone comes and says, "Let's do business together," we want to do a background check on the individual themselves. Before we establish a company together, for example, a joint venture, we can quickly use MyData SSM to check if there are any red flags we need to be aware of. Or for us at KS, as a check and balance podcast to the government, if there's a big tender, then a company wins, then we check the company's profile, check its shareholders, check its financial statements; it's clearly a substandard company.

4:53 And we can say, oh, this is a substandard company because we got information from MyData SSM. That's not the best use case scenario, of course, but that's... you know, what is available through MyData SSM: SSM data only. What's also interesting, KJ, briefly, maybe after the break we can discuss it more. MyData SSM, even though its name is MyData SSM, as a service provider, it also has other services. For example, digital certified true copy. We can touch on that later. DCTC. We'll discuss that later. So, this means, this is another innovation in Malaysia's ecosystem, Malaysia's digital ecosystem, that facilitates various uses for us. Yes. So, don't wait, don't hesitate. If it's not in MyData, then, you know, you have to make sure that you are careful. Red flags!

5:39 So, special for today for KS viewers, you can see a QR code on the screen, where you can access all the channels MyData SSM has: website, WhatsApp number, social media accounts. Also on TikTok. So, for any inquiries, you can go through these channels to find out more about MyData SSM's services. That's right. OK. So, maybe we can start with a few short local topics first? Sure. Yes. What's been hot in recent weeks, KJ? Recent weeks. What's hot, huh? Many things are hot locally, but before we get to policy matters... That we want to discuss. Yes. A quick political matter, which is the PKR election. I think we've commented on it twice, so we don't want to.

6:24 It's too hot. I think we also shouldn't... don't want to add fuel to the fire and so on. Just want to say... Later our channel might get cancelled, huh. Really, huh? Yes. There is, there is. It's normal, it's normal. It's very tribal now. It's hot. It's hot. It's hot. Perhaps, good luck to all candidates and all the best, and whoever wins, may they serve to the best of their ability. Perhaps this is not siding with any candidate. But, perhaps one thing I want to mention. I know it's difficult, because we at KS have also gone through various elections, to the point of being suspended, to the point of being sacked, and so on. But, if there is any way, if there is any way at all to restore unity, or rebuild unity.

7:18 Because for me, both main candidates for Deputy President are actually national assets, among the political gems we have. Both Izzah and Rafizi, whoever wins, whoever wins, right? So, there can only be one winner who will be announced this weekend. But I hope, whoever is not successful, will not be, either pushed out or will not abandon the struggle. There must be a way of staying in, staying in. Don't be like us. It depends on many factors, including the individuals themselves, whether they want to or not. And we leave it to their respective wisdom. Sure. Yes. But yes, all the best to both of them and everyone else contesting.

8:06 All the best to all contesting. Yes. OK, maybe we start with the issue of vape sales, because if we recall, there is already the Control of Smoking Products for Public Health Act, Act 852 of 2024, which has tightened controls on smoking products. This Act was enforced on April 1st, but it has not been fully enforced, because I understand the Minister of Health said there is an education phase first. So, not fully enforced. And under this act, there are indeed strict conditions that have been set for the sale of either vapes or cigarettes.

8:54 And among the prohibitions that have been made, for example, are sales locations and also a display ban, advertising ban, and also possibly expanded no-smoking zones, as well as fines for those who violate the act. I, when I was at the Ministry of Health, took action, because before this act was drafted, and this act was passed after I had already left the Ministry of Health. But a large part of the act that was passed is almost the same as the act that I had produced with my officers back then at the MOH. Only the GEG provision, or the Generational Endgame, was removed (from the act).

9:43 And there are also a few things that have been relaxed in the act that was recently passed. However, Shahril, I made the decision because before this act, indeed vapes or electronic nicotine delivery systems... that's what the technical term is. It's not controlled at all. Grey area. But we know that it exists, there are no laws, no regulations. I said there must be regulations. But at that time, there were many public health advocates, public health activists who said, are you crazy? Because countries like Singapore, they immediately banned vape. Indeed, there's no vape there, and there are countries that immediately banned vape. But for me, I took a step that can be described as centrist.

10:33 I said no. I gave GEG in return. And secondly, we tightened the conditions for vape sales. And thirdly, we also have to consider that this industry has existed for a long time. And indeed, many would be economically affected if we were to ban it outright. And fourthly, I said although the evidence is still not clear, but there is something to be said about harm reduction, i.e. people switching from smoking cigarettes to vape. Like me before. Like you before. And although we don't know the long-term effect of the vape, the liquid and all that, it seems to suggest that many people who were smoking cigarettes like yourself switch to vape. But now, because perhaps it wasn't enforced as quickly as possible, it's still in the education phase.

11:23 What is happening now is that there are certain states that have already decided to completely ban the sale of vape. Not even go with the federal law which is to regulate it, only certain places can sell vape, under these circumstances vape can be sold, but they said no. Johor, of course, since 2016, the Sultan of Johor at that time, now the Yang di-Pertuan Agong, had decreed that licenses not be issued, because the PBT issues the licenses. This is where the local government, local laws come in. Kelantan has never issued licenses. Terengganu announced measures to completely ban the sale of all vape products. Perlis also said the same thing, starting from the first of August. Kedah is studying it, Selangor is carrying out enforcement, especially on

12:10 advertisements and also confiscating advertising products related to vape because the act has not been enforced yet. And Pulau Pinang is also evaluating the possibility of banning vape. What do you think about this when states themselves taking matters into their own hand? The vape players, to be fair, after this act came out, they've made adjustments. They said, "Okay, if you allow me to sell, it's alright. If these conditions are strict, okay we comply with it." They've invested, they know that vape can be sold now, but the states have said, well, we feel that the law or this federal act is not strong enough or it's still too slow to be implemented, enforced. Pictures of children, primary school students vaping.

12:58 And they took matters into their own hand and they have banned vape. Two initial comments, KJ. One is, this closes the loophole that existed last year, right? Or 2 years ago when vape was removed from the list of poisons. And there was a lacuna, a loophole in the legislation and finally in October last year, with this act, it closed it. Okay fine. So, the second point is, I think what is happening now is states are well within their rights to use the provisions and existing rights to not issue licenses and so on. It doesn't even violate the provisions of the federal law. They just use existing powers to be consistent, in line with the spirit of the Federal Act to make this move.

13:46 But my third point is, I don't think this is the end point because perhaps this is a step for the states to signal that they want to be more aggressive. Then I'm sure there will be maybe a rollback, maybe there will be lobbying from the vape industry, to say look, we will follow. We will follow whatever provisions you, the state authorities, want us to do, we will do it, to allow this industry to continue with strict regulation. Yes. That might be a prediction that will come true because it has always happened in Malaysia where an announcement is made, and after that, lobbying from the vape industry and so on. And the vape industry's lobbying is quite something too. I know you recall when you were in politics, they are politically well connected.

14:35 Many of the owners in the vape industry are friends, or friends and family, of politicians. And they will say, "Oh, we are Malay, Bumiputera traders." That's usually the first point. Yes, we are young Bumiputera entrepreneurs, you wouldn't want to kill young Bumiputera entrepreneurs. Even though the thing they sell also kills people. So I mean I think we should monitor it, because I'm sure that there will be pushback on this. To the states, perhaps I suggest waiting first for the full enforcement of the act that has already been passed in parliament. Before making a decision. If with the implementation and enforcement of the act, where there are strict conditions for vape sales,

15:20 it cannot be advertised, only certain places can sell vape. If you are still not satisfied, then I think you are well within your rights to take action at the PBT level. But I think let the force of the federal law take place first. And after that, we can see whether it is still under control or not. Especially, I think people get angry when they see young children vaping. That was the trigger moment. But perhaps the power they are using is not power that comes from the federal act, right? No, no, it's PBT. PBT, business licenses. Yeah, which they can say yes or no to anything they want, right? That's the first thing. Secondly, we forgot to mention there are states where their muftis have issued fatwas. Yes. If that becomes the basis for the ban in a particular state, perhaps for example, Kelantan and Terengganu, for example, yes, if that is the basis,

16:09 then it's not a matter of being consistent or inconsistent with the federal level. It comes from a different spirit. So I don't know how that changes. I don't know. There are also fatwas that say smoking is haram, but it's still steady, yeah. Steady, yeah. Okay. Yap. Okay. What else? Briefly. Another local issue that perhaps we want to discuss briefly, KJ, is how do we explain the concept of faux pas to a national Malay-speaking audience. Hmm, a mistake. But it's more than a mistake. It's an embarrassing mistake. Embarrassing, a bit embarrassing. Because I feel what happened, why I brought up this faux pas, is there was a statement from a... F A U X P A S. Correct. Faux pas. And there was a faux pas, a mistake that was a bit disgraceful in my opinion.

16:57 When the Deputy Minister of Communications proudly announced that Malaysia would create a sovereign LLM or large language model like, for example, Chat GPT, or GPT-4. But Malaysia's own, using chips from Huawei, and the most advanced chip from Huawei. Ascend. Yes. So this is supposed to be the answer to Nvidia, I guess. Nvidia stock chips, right? That statement came out, one, of course, there are geopolitical implications, the United States took note. In fact, there was an X statement or a tweet from Donald Trump's own advisor who responded to the statement from this Malaysian government representative.

17:45 Secondly, and more importantly, it seems this thing is not quite true or accurate. That this is not a Malaysian initiative or a government initiative. In fact, Huawei itself said it didn't even sell those chips to Malaysia and there was no government-to-government agreement at all. So this might be an example where a politician, a government representative, was invited by it seems, a company called Skyvest Cloud, a Malaysian firm, Skyvest Cloud. Maybe she came to an event and was given a script to announce something, and she might have gotten overly excited. And supposedly said that we will do this with Huawei chips. The implication isn't very good. And then that thing wasn't even true.

18:30 Unnecessarily, we risk paying a geopolitical cost for something that's not even true. Yes, I think in this matter, the Honourable Deputy Minister of Communications YB Teo Nie Ching. If Shahril earlier said faux pas, if I were to use an English term, this was well above her pay grade. This was beyond her position. She shouldn't have talked about this thing that she doesn't understand. Because one, she doesn't understand what she's saying. Secondly, she doesn't understand that what she said has placed her in the middle of the most intense geo-technological competition in the world.

19:17 Sebab the moment you say Malaysia ada full stack capability for AI. Because the moment you say Malaysia has full stack capability for AI. Using Chinese technology. So what is this full stack? Full stack means there's a physical data center, there are servers using AI, there are GPUs, chips that can implement AI, which are used, made by Huawei itself. And there are LLM models like Deepseek. End to end. End to end. Then of course there will be a response from the US. Saying that, "Hey, what's going on?" Surely you haven't given up your AI sovereignty to China, basically. I understand there was a quick statement, huh? Yes. From MITI. MITI issued a statement to say, 'No, this thing is just a private initiative.' Yes. And another thing, her faux pas, KJ, is this thing, if let's say this is supposedly a full stack AI,

20:06 using sophisticated chips to create a sovereign LLM, which is a model that is owned and its data is stored in Malaysia. Because that's what was hyped up by The Honorable Teo Nie Ching. That thing has indeed been announced because of YTL.ai. YTL AI is doing that right with Nvidia chips. Nvidia. Yeah, correct. So as a deputy minister, I would have thought something big like that, she should have known. When she was giving that remark, she should have known that there already is this sovereign LLM project that everybody is talking about, everybody in the industry is talking about. So, suddenly there's this new thing from Skyvest, it's a bit unfortunate that that happened. Oh, we can be nefarious and say she knew exactly what she was talking about. Maybe, maybe. And she was betting for the other side. That is only being speculative.

20:52 Okay, Shahril brought up a few weeks ago that there was a legal dispute between Petronas and the Sarawak Government, if I'm not mistaken. and the Sarawak Government has taken to court Petronas' commercial activities in Sarawak. And this has already sparked tensions between the Sarawak State Government and Petronas, and of course by extension, the Federal Government. This is a follow-up from, of course, the decision for Petros, an oil and gas company owned by the Sarawak State Government, to take over

21:40 as the gas aggregator in Sarawak. Meaning, starting from March this year, all gas distribution, marketing, and supply in Sarawak must comply with Petros. And this dispute not only involves Petronas and Petros, but also involves the future, profitability, and sustainability of Petronas as a national treasure of oil and gas for all Malaysians. But it also strains the relationship and the spirit of federalism in Malaysia. I understand, Shahril, following the meeting between The Right Honourable PMX and The Right Honourable Premier of Sarawak,

22:31 Datuk Patinggi Tan Sri Abang Jo, on the 9th of May, an agreement was finalized in the form of a joint statement on the 21st of May. Details are sketchy. Details are not clear. But is this sufficient, firstly, to find a resolution to the crisis between Sarawak, Putrajaya, Petronas, and Petros. But more importantly, I think apart from that, is to provide some measure of stability, some measure of predictability, especially for foreign investors who are affected by this tension.

23:18 I'm not sure, KJ, whether we can say that, due to several factors. Firstly, if KJ is aware, on the first day, a statement was issued by the Prime Minister's Office which supposedly comprised a joint statement. The next day, the Sarawak State Government issued its own statement, where the essence of it, although not clearly contradictory, but the tone was very different. Its nuances. Its nuances were different. The easiest example is the Sarawak State Government's statement, if I'm not mistaken, didn't even mention the Petroleum Development Act. It only emphasized the DGO, which is the ordinance that makes Sarawak the gas aggregator, right? So, the recognition of the PDA,

24:05 the omission of the word PDA in that second statement speaks volumes to me. And when I checked again, this trend has happened 2 or 3 times already, KJ. Because in January 2025, the first day the PMO issued a statement, the second day Sarawak issued a statement. September 2024 was the same. There was a meeting between PMX and the Premier. The media said the issue was resolved, the next day, Abang Jo's or the Sarawak Government's tone, it was like there was an addition. So, there's a bit of an echo after that. So, I see that as the first factor. But it's not just that, KJ. I looked at its essence to some extent. There's a slight change, a shift in terms of the standing of the Petroleum Development Act,

24:51 which is the Petroleum Development Act 1974 that forms the basis for Petronas and also this DGO. If you look back at PMX's earlier statements, he used to say that when in one interview, if I'm not mistaken, speaking in English, that PDA is the overarching framework. Yep. So, perhaps the main framework. The main framework, yes. But now, the language used no longer says PDA is the main framework. Who? The PM? The PM or the joint statement, it will say... It's joined with the DGO? PDA and DGO are to be read together. Ah, yes. So, there's no longer an emphasized hierarchy, even by Putrajaya. Whereas the PDA should be the federal law. Yes, federal law we always assume is superior, right? Trumps state law. I guess Sarawak has a different point of view, but my point is even Putrajaya

25:39 seems to be slowly conceding this hierarchical relationship to one that is more, okay, we establish it together, we read it together and we kick the can down the road and figure it out day by day, how it is, right? And when we do that, okay, for the short term, it seems there are a few things agreed upon based on that first statement. For example, it was mentioned that any Petronas contracts will not be disrupted by anything done by the Sarawak Government. So, it can proceed. Regarding LNG exports, Petronas can also continue. But it doesn't mention what happens after that. What will happen after all whatever contractual obligations of Petronas are done. is done. Is it still going to be the same? I don't suspect our friends from Sarawak will agree.

26:25 And that's where there will be an impact on Petronas' profits. Correct. But usually in political trends, that is maybe 5, 10 years down the road, so I don't have to worry about it now. But we as citizens, and we as people who see this in the longer term, there's a basis for some concern. Yes. Because this thing, I don't see a definitive solution in these statements. It's more of a holding pattern, holding pattern, and then we'll deal with it as we go along. And perhaps that will depend on the leadership dynamics of each party. And yes, I have to say that perhaps the solution to postpone any conclusive decision is the only solution available in the current political situation.

27:12 Because the current political situation doesn't allow any party to impose. PMX cannot really impose, and of course Sarawak, this is the limit of its imposing on the federal government. Hmm. That's why, perhaps the only step available to them is this framework, read DGO together with PDA. Whatever existing contracts, let them proceed first. The rest, later. Tomorrow we'll discuss it. We'll discuss it tomorrow. And there's something not mentioned, if I'm not mistaken, is what's happening at the Miri Terminal, all that lawsuit or whatever it is, right? That legal... Not solved yet. It wasn't even said to be withdrawn. So... Yeah. Carry on. Okay. I wanted to discuss this in the 2nd segment earlier, but I feel

28:00 it's neater if we resolve all local issues in the first segment, because it's not even half an hour yet. The proposal from Datuk Seri Azalina Othman Said, Minister of Law and Institutional Reform. This got a lot of comments, Shahril, because she proposed that the government raise the age of mandatory retirement for civil servants, from 60 to 65, with the reason or argument that many individuals aged 60 and above are still healthy, sane, active, and capable of contributing to the employment sector. Furthermore, the retirement age for judges in Malaysia, of course, is 65 years, and several ASEAN countries have higher retirement age limits.

28:46 Of course, this thing has, as you can imagine, invited various criticisms. For older people, of course, they celebrate this proposal because it's extended by another 5 years. No need to extend contracts every year. It's very obvious, they can go up to 65 years. Not directed at any party. And there are views from the younger generation saying that the ceiling is getting further and further away. The climb up is getting further. These older seniors will still be there for another 5 years. So, their path to the top is even further, much further.

29:38 So, what are the pros and cons for you? This thing cannot be read without us understanding one context, whether you agree or disagree, which is aging in Malaysia. We are indeed an aging society. So, life expectancy has increased in Malaysia. Currently, if I'm not mistaken, it's 77 years. Late 70s. so the period for which an individual, God willing, will live after the current retirement age is quite long. And we are well aware of the impact on society when their EPF is insufficient, with their income being insufficient, and so on, all becoming a burden on the public healthcare system, and so forth. This is not us judging individuals. We are assessing this in the context of shaping a society that can progress sustainably.

30:28 So, this matter is indeed a policy issue that all countries have to deal with. Usually, when increasing this retirement age, one of the biggest considerations is when your life expectancy is higher. So, when that comes along with a social safety net that is still seen as fragile, then there is an argument for that to happen. If you ask me, young people usually don't quite like it for the reason KJ mentioned earlier. However, I go back to something I always think about, which is that the economy is quite different now, and I don't think that relationship is so direct anymore. Meaning, in the past, perhaps when people were late to leave their jobs, it was hard for you to replace them. But now, the threat to jobs indeed comes from other things, like artificial intelligence and so on.

31:15 And this old relationship between retirement age and young people moving up. I think that relationship is no longer so clear. So, if this is one way to help society, I'm not against it. Okay, I present 3 views against this. Firstly, yes, I understand that perhaps the threat to jobs doesn't only come from extending the retirement age, but also comes from artificial intelligence and so on. However, we cannot deny that the culture of an organization, it will become stagnant if there isn't any turnover at the top level.

32:02 Because, if that person's service is extended for another 5 years, it means there will be a knock-on effect for several years. And if we want to look at it from the perspective of the dynamism of the organization, with a new leader coming in, new ideas coming in, that's going to be put off for another 5 years. And the person who was expecting to move up in 5 years will now only do so after an additional 5 years. So, it will have an impact on organizational dynamism, to me, if this is in place. Not just one-off, but it will have an impact perhaps for a whole generation. Secondly, and this is a point as a former Minister of Health. Yes, indeed we now have a longer life expectancy, or now we live longer than before.

32:47 But the extra years in our lives, Shahril, are not healthy. So, to say they are all fit, they are all of sound mind. As we all know, we have rates of NCDs (non-communicable diseases), heart disease, hypertension, diabetes that are very significant and high. So, if we apply this across the board to everyone, not necessarily those aged 60 to 65 are actually still fit and healthy. In fact, many of them are already chronic patients and there will be costs associated with that. Which brings me to the third point. Right now, we are in a situation that requires some fiscal discipline. We, in this term, I don't see PMX and the Unity Government touching the pension issue.

33:38 Which we once proposed some time ago, Shahril, that new recruitment into the civil service must be fully migrated to EPF, the EPF scheme, and no longer receive government pensions as is the case today. Guess what? If we extend from 60 to 65, that burden is the legacy system, pension. Legacy system pension. So, you got to pay them for another 5 years. Perhaps in those 5 years, their salaries will increase. And usually, for those at the very end of their service, their salary is at the top of their band. So, the pension bill will also go up. So, we haven't fully thought through the impact on the fiscal position if we implement this for everyone.

34:24 Meaning, everyone from 60 to 65 will have an impact on organizational dynamism, there will be an impact in terms of their own health, which I see in Malaysia indeed there are many chronic illnesses. And thirdly, in terms of the pension burden, it will increase significantly. So, my suggestion is that yes, study it properly. Perhaps we offer an option on a case-by-case basis. For some people, I don't think for every function we need to extend from 60 to 65. But, perhaps there are specialized functions. For example, again, the Ministry of Health, Specialists who are forced to retire at age 60. Maybe that specialist can't wait to go to the private sector. But, there are specialists who don't mind continuing for another 5 years.

35:10 Or for certain specialized functions, engineering, technical functions, whatever, we give them the option to extend for 5 years. But, if we want to make it a policy for everyone, I'm not for it. So, I think KJ's point is valid. My only response, especially on the third point, that's a financial matter, right? Its knock-on implications. But for those two points, doesn't KJ feel that there's also logic when we say, when it comes to working, the difference between not working and working, and its health implications, doesn't mean that if you continue working, you will get sick. In fact, there's also an argument, right? That if we retire and have no plans for that retirement, your mental capacity and all that can also decline.

35:58 So, I'm not so sure about that second point. But assuming the lifestyle of the average civil servant is healthy. Hopefully at 65, they are not having curry puffs and such for breakfast. Nasi lemak everyday. But, that's what I wanted to raise, in that regard. Secondly, perhaps our social safety net is still not strong. And if it's allowed to continue as it is now, doesn't KJ also see, if KJ says the pension issue is a burden. But what is the burden when they are non-productive and they could have been productive. So, I think the way to solve that is not to extend the mandatory retirement age to 65 for everyone. You're talking about thousands of civil servants here.

36:44 But actually, to create golden pathways for them after they retire. Whether it's business or transitioning to the private sector. And then of course, to come up with through perhaps EPF. EPF has discussed with us, Shahril, as you know, social protection for those who have retired below a certain income level, they might be able to receive government benefits in perpetuity, throughout their lives. But, this is not the solution to that. Right. No, I like that point about this golden pathway. So, they continue to be members of society who can produce economic output if they want to. Similarly this one, it's not forced upon you, not compulsory, but can still help contribute

37:30 to economic output, and therefore they help society that way too. Okay. Maybe we'll take a break and be back after this. Welcome back to episode 155 of Keluar Sekejap, brought to you specially by MyData SSM. KJ, earlier we talked about scams, about how we use MyData SSM to access data within SSM. Because before we make any investment decisions, any business decisions, and so on.

38:20 But, as I previewed earlier, it's not just data from SSM alone that we can use with this MyData SSM, because maybe we don't do this, but we have been informed, government agencies are already using MyData SSM products or services to make DCTC, which is Digital Certified True Copy. This Certified True Copy is for us to verify whether the document is authentic or fake. Authentic or not. And usually, it needs to be done manually, but now, with technology, we already have the capability to make not just CTC anymore, but DCTC. Usually, there's this stamp. Yes, usually there's a stamp from SSM. Certified true copy. Meaning, the certificate is valid,

39:08 is genuine, and not falsified. But now, through MyData SSM, they have technology that has been pioneered by MyData SSM itself to produce Digital Certified True Copy. For example, like we were talking about vape earlier. If there's enforcement by PBT, or anyone, or KKM, and they want to check if a shop has valid documents and licenses? In the case of this inspection, if they want to see if the document is correct or not, it's already there. There is a Digital Certified True Copy checker that can scan the document to see if it's correct or not. Because sometimes, enforcement officers raid offices or business premises.

39:54 The business premises [owner/staff] is relaxed because they already have displayed on the wall their degree, PhD, and then their certificates. There's a PDF, right? Its PDF. So, there's no way to check, right? There's no way to check whether it's a certified true copy or not. But through this checker, you can scan whether the document is genuine or a falsified document. Yes, and this has a much greater potential than just enforcement matters. And we hope whoever is listening, those in agencies and so on can think about it. If there's already this Malaysian company MyData SSM, which is already legit, has done work for SSM, why don't they also think about, is there a way to collaborate with MyData SSM,

40:42 thinking about what can be built to facilitate the delivery of government services. Okay, once again for KS viewers, you can see the QR code on the screen where you can access all of MyData SSM's available channels: website, WhatsApp number, social media accounts, and also TikTok. And if there are any inquiries, especially as we mentioned earlier, not just for documents available at SSM, but if you want to get the Digital Certified True Copy service, to check SSM documents, whether the document has a QR code and we can see if it's genuine, valid, we can use MyData SSM. And all of this is valid under the Malaysian Digital Signature Act 1997, according to the established laws

41:30 for digital documents as we mentioned earlier. Okay, Shahril, it's currently happening or perhaps will be concluding soon. This week, this week is busy in Langkawi. Next week will be busy in Kuala Lumpur, but why is this week busy in Langkawi? Because we have an an exhibition, the biggest exhibition, the greatest, which I think, if I'm not mistaken, is bigger than any competitor in this region. That is LIMA. LIMA. LIMA. Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition. KJ, the day before yesterday I was at the airport, to go to Penang, for another program.

42:20 I sat next to this uncle who looked elderly. Quite senior in age. And he very happily told me that he was going to LIMA. And it was his first time going. And he went with his son. His son had already been 2-3 times and he looked like, you know, just an uncle who really, really wanted to go. Was he an arms dealer? He wasn't, clearly not an arms dealer. Didn't look like one at all. But I guess you never know. You never know. Why would he say he's an arms dealer? That is true. But it was his first time, he looked very excited. So, I've never been to LIMA. I've never been to LIMA. Oh it's fantastic. Something else. I'm not sure it is, something else. Yes. Since KJ and Shahril are not experts in this field, we've invited an expert

43:10 whom I personally follow on social media, Mr. Marhalim Abbas, a writer in the defense field, a defense journalist, who has the website Malaysian Defence with a C, MalaysianDefence.com. Assalamualaikum Mr. Marhalim. How are you? I'm well. A bit tired, just got back from LIMA, arrived this afternoon. Oh, you're already back in KL? Yes, just arrived in KL this afternoon. Because I only went during the trade days. Because it's a bit easier to work. When it's public day, it's too crowded with people, anyway. When all the aunties come, some even with wheelchairs. So, we can't get work done.

43:57 So we just wait for the trade days. Trade day. Trade days are segments for companies, for end-users, no kids around. Perhaps Mr. Marhalim can tell us a bit about what's different about LIMA this year. I understand there were MOUs worth up to RM11 billion, 96 contracts, there were assets from Brazil, France, Italy, Singapore, Indonesia, the United States. All sorts of things, the theme this year is 'Innovate Today, Thrive Tomorrow'. So, what's the story? Did we manage to acquire new, great assets that can defend our country's sovereignty? If you put it that way, not really, because

44:45 this time, the purchases signed were still just LOIs (Letters of Intent). for armored vehicles, 136 units. And there were no purchases of aircraft or ships that are supposedly needed, which we also need right now. And most of those contracts are old contracts, basically for the years 2024-2025, and most of them are for the army. For the air force and navy, most were just maintenance tenders, that's all, and not actual assets themselves.

45:35 Mr. Marhalim, Yes. Please continue. Indeed, the volume is high, but usually, that's how it is because they will it's more of a show and tell, really. It's not that there's nothing, because I've been going to LIMA since 1995. And indeed, for us, every two years, it will be like that. But actually, throughout the years, actual purchases are made outside of LIMA, and sometimes at LIMA, it's just a public show of contract signings. And this time, as usual, no major assets were bought or contracts signed during LIMA itself.

46:22 So it's not much different from when large FDI figures are announced, but actually, they've been set up beforehand. Then they are just announced. It's like when Trump recently went to the Middle East, something like that. Even old deals are packaged as new announcements. But I think, you know, sometimes this show and tell is also important because it has its value. And also the value of inspiring Malaysians that Malaysia is a focal point country, other countries come to showcase their assets. There's some soft power associated with it, which I feel has some value. Mr. Marhalim, perhaps I want to ask a bit, because we want to discuss specifics, because I feel it would be a loss if we don't get Mr. Marhalim's views on this matter.

47:09 We want to discuss a bit about the gaps or shortcomings in our defense system or preparedness. Let's start with the matter of, during the Merdeka Day parade, the most impressive asset is usually our fighter jets. And I want to ask a bit about our gap, if we look at the number of fighter jets, Malaysia, if we compare with Singapore, let's not even compare. They are far ahead, if I'm not mistaken, over 100 fighter jets. Ours, if I'm not mistaken, is around 40. Even then, it's uncertain how many are airworthy, that can truly fight in the air or are just 'fighting' in the hangar.

47:55 I want to ask Mr. Marhalim, it was said before, it was once announced that there would be a purchase of multirole combat aircraft. Meaning fighter jets that can do all sorts of things. And it was said we wanted to buy from South Korea, not North Korea, mind you, South Korea. What's happening to that? The MRCA program is still delayed because the allocation isn't there yet. And it will likely be in the allocation next year. The 5-year plan for 2026 to 2031. And according to the RMAF's (Royal Malaysian Air Force) plan, that's how it is. But as usual, like before, we plan, RMAF plans, ultimately the government has to decide

48:41 what they are going to spend or not, on or where. So, I think RMAF is also waiting. Whether it will happen and the allocation will be provided. So far, still no word on that allocation. Although it's usually in the RMK (Malaysia Plan), this Malaysia Plan, the allocation is there. But it's not used. It goes into the plan, and it's stated, an allocation of this much, this much, but at the end of that Malaysia Plan, is it actually used to buy those assets. Like in the 12th Malaysia Plan (RMK12), the budget was 50 billion. The current one, the 12th RMK.

49:30 For the past 5 years up to this year. 50 billion. But if we look at the budget, only 22 billion was spent on purchases. The actual items that we contracted for. So, almost half was not used. And that's how it is. Returning to this MRCA, Multirole Combat Aircraft. Why is it needed? Why do we need to buy these fighter jets? Aren't our Sukhois enough? No. Not enough, because the Sukhois are already almost 20 years old. During the display, during the opening of LIMA that day, the TUDM personnel doing the broadcast at that time even said, "These are Malaysia's vintage airplanes."

50:18 Vintage. I don't know whether he understood the meaning or not, but all TUDM aircraft are over 20 years old. Marhalim, I, perhaps as someone less knowledgeable about the details, but I feel I represent many voices out there who, when not knowledgeable, still have a general picture. The general picture is that Malaysia's defence assets, are either insufficient, either not functional, or obsolete, and so on. That's the perception and impression that perhaps Marhalim, as someone more expert on this matter. Generally, is that perception fair, or is there actually more that we can be proud of?

51:04 It's fair, actually. Because, this defence stuff, like cars and other things, needs to constantly keep up with the times. Although they might talk about hours and all that, but it's not really like that. It requires renewal that needs to be constantly updated and replaced regularly. Not replaced once a year, but at least once every 15 years to ensure that these aircraft can function as we intend. And besides aircraft, we must remember, the weapons carried by these aircraft. Guided missiles, bombs, all of them. These things also need to be constantly replaced.

51:49 Because they usually have a service life of 10 years. So, when we bought the Sukhoi, in 2007, almost all of its weapons have now expired. Oh. And their lifespan has been extended, and now their lifespan has been extended again. But in another 5 or 6 years, we will need new guided missiles, new bombs, to ensure they function as we intend. If it's expired food, we'll get diarrhea. If it's an expired missile, what will happen? It might not reach the target we intend.

52:34 If we want to shoot at A, it might not reach A. It flies, but it might fall midway. It's useless. Yes, that's right. Understood, understood. There's this one concept I read about, regarding asymmetrical warfare, which is when we have a situation where we, as a perhaps a small country, cannot compete with complete assets. It's unbalanced. Unbalanced against any of our threats, so certain assets become more important. For example, coastal assets and so on. Perhaps Marhalim can explain in simple terms for our viewers and listeners, is that actually the method, and the best way for us to be self-aware,

53:21 acknowledge what we don't have, and focus on what we can do for better defence in this asymmetrical situation? Yes. The only problem is, our industry isn't focused in that direction now, and we've never had an industry that does that currently. We look at Ukraine, they make drones and all. We don't have companies that do that. We can import and assemble in Malaysia, but so far, from what I've seen, it also requires a budget, and we, collectively as a nation, don't show any indication of doing so. To stockpile weapons, ammunition, for emergencies.

54:11 So, if we want to talk about asymmetrical warfare, the things we are doing now aren't leading towards any specific one. So, we want asymmetrical warfare, but we're not even doing conventional warfare. So, how? So, earlier Marhalim touched on the defence industry. I think, considering this is the first time we're discussing defence in detail. This is interesting. Next time, if you can come to the studio, we'll invite Marhalim to come to the studio, and we can discuss further. But we hear, and when I was in the government before, I knew, there are many industries, local companies involved in defence, DEFTECH, and many others. Haven't they been given opportunities to produce tanks and others?

55:01 So, what's really the problem now? Okay, we know about the tragedy concerning the LCS Littoral Combat Ship. That's indeed a black mark in our defence industry. But there are also success stories. True. But this defence industry now also depends on the budget. That's the issue. So it's chicken and egg. We want to build an industry, but at the same time, we don't want to spend. We buy 10 units of A. Okay. We keep them for 10 years, then we buy another 10 units of A. So, how can the industry survive? It can't survive. And we don't want to buy from countries like the United States, which have large defence industries, and their defence equipment can be considered cheap in terms of cost.

55:51 Like their armored personnel carriers, are only around 1.3 million. If we convert directly, if we buy directly. But when we buy through agents here, it goes up to almost 10 million. So we don't have, in terms of economic sense, economic terms, we cannot compete with that. And our budget is too small to sustain the industry itself, actually. We don't spend, we don't spend enough money. There is an industry, but it's more towards maintenance and such. It's like shipbuilding as well. We built ships before in 1999, the Kedah-class. 6 units, but it was delayed for almost 10 years, and that company was also asked to build the LCS.

56:38 The gap was almost 20 years between the first ship and the LCS. So, the industry, right, it gets a little, its spending is slow, suddenly it's finished, no more projects. Wait for 5, 6 years, all the workers leave, it's over. How are you going to sustain the business? Like making rice, or anything, if we think about it, someone who opens a food stall, if it only opens once a week, can it survive for a month? It definitely can't. Like if we look at Singapore, they built one ship before from France, they bought it directly from France. They, another 5 ships, they built in their own country. Continuously. After that, once those 5 were finished, they started another ship project, building 6 units. Once those ships were ready, they continued building another 6 units. So, their continuity provides financial resources

57:27 to their own state-owned enterprise, not private, and builds human resource capacity. We don't do that. We do a little, stop. Do a little, stop. Do a little, stop. Do a little, stop. So, eventually, the local industry will not develop. And the same, we also buy tanks. Right now, 257. So, it's technically unsustainable as a business venture, especially for private companies, right? Yes. Okay, maybe one more thing I want to ask Marhalim, this is regarding our strength at sea. Because we can be said to be, Malaysia, historically, we are a maritime nation.

58:13 Since the era of the Malacca Sultanate. We are a maritime nation. But I see, this, from what I read in the news, what we hear in the news and so on. Right now, our assets, our warships, if compared to China's coast guard, cannot even compete, and that will affect us. Because now we know that border overlaps, China's claims over the South China Sea, they are constantly building on atolls, on islands in the South China Sea, not to mention the harassment of fishermen from Malaysia, Vietnam, and so on. How far behind are we from where we should be in terms of naval power?

59:02 If we want to fight China, we have to consider that even the US is wary of China. But actually, we too, indeed our navy does not have enough ships and suitable ships to carry out its duties. For China's coast guard... Not to fight, but at least to protect our sovereignty. Correct, correct. But that's it, not enough ships. APMM also doesn't have enough ships. When ships are built, they get delayed. Because it's given to companies without experience and strong financials. So, the reality is, we do need more ships. But until now, we are still using patrol craft, fast attack craft bought in the 70s and 60s.

59:48 Because new ships are delayed. Like the Kedah-class, it was supposed to be 12 units, but ended up being 6 units. And the frigates bought before, one unit, two units, then stop. Because like we said earlier, we don't have continuity of plan. So, we build one ship or we buy one ship, and then we stop. We wait for 3, 4 years, 5, 6 years. So, our fleet's strength is always fluctuating, its strength goes up and down. And now, its strength has indeed greatly declined because there's no procurement of new assets. No new ships are coming in. New missiles have been bought, but they haven't been integrated yet because the ships aren't ready. So, we keep getting delayed.

1:00:33 Our efforts to safeguard this nation's sovereignty are all constantly being delayed. And the government, I understand all of this, but... ...for a long time now, for the past 20, 30 years, this mentality of ours in the government, from what I've gathered from people in the Ministry of Home Affairs, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and also the Ministry of Finance, is "who do we want to go to war with?" That's the mentality that needs to be toned down a bit, because it's not about who we want to go to war with, but who wants to go to war with us. Oh, who do we want to go to war with? Yes. No, that's not it. Maybe people could accept that argument 10 years ago. But I feel today, that's not an acceptable argument. It's not that we want to go to war with anyone, but... Right now, if you meet people from the Ministry of Finance who manage this money, regarding buying fighter jets and ships.

1:01:24 The same reason will be given. The same excuse will be given. Who do we want to go to war with? It's not about who we want to go to war with. How do we articulate what our problem is here in Malaysia? Oh, we don't need to do it publicly, but what... ...in terms of us reading the Defence White Paper, we are still... ...far from determining our defence direction. Because in the past, when we had many ships, many helicopters, many ships, it was when we had an existential threat: the communists. Now, since '89, there has been none. That we can see right before our eyes. So, that's what makes it difficult. Perhaps the Armed Forces (ATM) knows, but they won't publicly state who Malaysia's enemies are. For Singapore, it's easy. They say, "We're a small country, people will bully us. So we will prepare."

1:02:13 They will prepare. We are a large country, what are we going to do? If people enter our waters, all our seas, what are we going to do? We've never articulated that. Yes. Yes, that's a serious concern, KJ. I think perhaps... ...it's appropriate for us to have a longer segment on another date, not just to discuss assets, but the overall defence strategy. In this uncertain world and geopolitical landscape, I hope that in 10 or 20 years, the future generation won't blame this generation for not having a longer and more realistic vision. Yes, I think perhaps we should wrap up. I want to conclude by saying that... ...our threat perception now is different. If in the past, our threat perception came from, as Mr. Marhalim said, the CPM, Communist Party of Malaya.

1:03:06 If you look at our military training doctrine, much of it was counter-insurgency warfare (CIW). That was the staple for all army recruits. But now we have many threats. State actors. State actors, non-state actors, cyber actors. We have threats involving borders, you know, a grey zone. It's not a hot zone. It's not an actual war, it's a grey zone. So, when the Chinese coast guard comes, that's a grey zone. They come, they 'elbow' us. That's a grey zone tactic. And, you know. Woefully inadequate. To me, ...to address the view that Mr. Marhalim mentioned, which comes from some officers in the Treasury.

1:03:54 I think in this day and age, the principle of deterrence is still valid. Deterrence means we have a fist; we don't necessarily use it, but others know we have one. If they know, and they all know that Malaysia doesn't have a fist right now, that's dangerous. That's the point. But one more thing, the Holy Grail. Our Holy Grail is the army. We must remember. This army, who is above the army? Yes. Who is above the army? The Malay Rulers. Hmm. Because the threat is external, so, if the threat is external, should we focus on the army or focus on...

1:04:42 ...we are a maritime nation? Should we build... ...more ships, a stronger air force? Yes. Actually, I wanted to extend the discussion in that direction too, but I'm afraid there isn't enough time. Because I feel there's a slight asymmetry of resources. Perhaps there's an argument to be made that the 'fit for purpose' size doesn't match what we currently have for the army, navy, and air force. Resources. Should those resources go in that direction, or towards a new direction? That's what I mean. Thank you, Mr. Marhalim. Thank you, that was a great discussion, and hopefully we can have Mr. Marhalim join us in person one day.

1:05:29 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome back to Episode 155 of Keluar Sekejap. This episode is brought to you by MyData SSM. MyData SSM, as we mentioned earlier, this service can be used by anyone to verify the legitimacy of a company or a business entity.

1:06:15 Especially if we want to conduct due diligence, research on the company, perhaps if we're looking to invest... ...or if we want to do business with them and we're unsure. We don't want to go to SSM, we don't want to queue. We can go to MyData SSM to obtain financial statements, company profiles, and also information regarding the shareholders of the company in question. Earlier, we also talked about official documents verified by a technology provided by MyData SSM, namely the Digital Certified True Copy or DCTC. This means, when you have a digital SSM document, at the very bottom, there will be a QR code, and that QR code can be used with the DCTC checker provided by MyData SSM

1:07:02 to verify if the document is valid, genuine, and has not been altered... ...or tampered with. Not tampered with. Thirdly, Shahril, what's interesting about this MyData SSM? So, earlier we discussed how ordinary individuals, startup founders, and so on, can use MyData SSM before making any decisions. We've also discussed how enforcement authorities can use DCTC. The third aspect, which I also find quite interesting, is that it's not just for those two groups, but the third group is business owners themselves, or enterprises, large corporations. For example, TikTok Shop. When they want to onboard their sellers,

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1:09:19 many of life's processes can be facilitated or onboarded through the MyData SSM platform. Make sure your business is credible but also seen to be credible. So, when your company's information is available and listed in an official system like MyData SSM, which is one of SSM's official systems, and you are checked, approved, and ready. So, to all business owners, startup founders, policymakers, civil servants, and so on, MyData SSM is where trust begins. Search, verify, trust. And with digital CTC, DCTC is also available. The innovation is there; it's just a matter of whether people want to use it or not. So don't wait, don't hesitate. If it's not in MyData, maybe don't trust it yet.

1:10:06 Special for today, for KS viewers and listeners, you can see there's a QR code on the screen where you can access all available MyData SSM channels, their website, WhatsApp number, social media accounts. They are also on TikTok. So for any questions, inquiries, you can go through these channels to find out more about MyData SSM services. And Shahril in the realm of corporate t-shirts, I must say that these corporate t-shirts are pretty nice. Yeah. Pretty nice, yeah. Not too bad at all. Yeah. So for loyal KS listeners and viewers, MyData wants to give you something special for this episode. You can redeem a MyData t-shirt by WhatsApping them and mention #MyDataXKS.

1:10:51 You can scan the QR code and WhatsApp them. For those who are listening, don't worry. You can get their WhatsApp number in the description of this episode on Spotify and all the audio platforms. So, MyData SSM is where trust begins. Okay Shahril, last segment. What is it? We'll start with things that invite curses. Invite curses. Oh, traffic jams. Traffic jams. Okay. It's not the first time we've hosted ASEAN, KJ? But why does this feel like the first time, and also the other day when President Xi Jinping came. Roads were indeed closed. Indeed... Extra-extra. It was extra-extra. And they didn't inform, well, for security reasons, they didn't inform when and which roads they would close.

1:11:38 So we live in complete uncertainty. I also find it strange, Shahril, because we usually have the Conference of Rulers meeting. And if I count, we have 9 Malay Rulers. Plus the states without rulers, Sarawak, Sabah, Melaka, Penang. 4 more. 4, right? So that's 12. Oh sorry, 9 plus 4, 13. Correct, right? 13. Yes, 13. ASEAN has 10 members. So for the Conference of Rulers, they don't close roads for a long period. They only close them when the Rulers pass by. from their palaces to the National Palace.

1:12:26 Yes. So, why in this ASEAN case, are the road closures more severe than the closures for the Conference of Malay Rulers meeting? That's a good question. I think this has been raised. When there's doubt, we... you know. MyData SSM. But anyway, I see, okay, we'll get into the substance of ASEAN. But I see a lot of the dissatisfaction is about the long road closures. Yes, yes. I understand there are companies reluctant to allow work from home. Wait, before work, KJ. My child couldn't go to school. Some schools were closed. So, that's right. Shahril's child's school is in the city center. Right. Is the Prime Minister of such-and-such country more important than my child's education?

1:13:15 Wow. Apparently, yes. Congratulations, you've become a netizen. Okay, that was semi-joking, okay? Don't, don't, don't. Okay. So anyway, luckily it's only for a week. Yes. If Shahril is worried about his child going to school, I'm the same, facing the same problem too. I have a second problem because on Tuesday there's a meet and greet with Manchester United players. Oh, that's not important. Maybe I don't want to go after last night, right? But it will happen on Jalan Ampang. Oh, Jalan Ampang is also closed. Yes. So I'm thinking about how to get to Jalan Ampang. And secondly, what has caused some anger is that many netizens said, wasn't Putrajaya built for this purpose?

1:14:00 Yes. Yes, yes. Meaning, Putrajaya is not just the administrative center of the Federal Government, but Putrajaya is also a protocol center for international conferences. That's why we built PICC, Putrajaya International Convention Centre. That's why the roads in Putrajaya are all big boulevards or wide roads. But maybe, I don't know. I don't know, maybe I'm just speculating here. Maybe its hotels, the hotels aren't sufficient to meet the standard for heads of government. Oh, in Putrajaya. Because in Putrajaya, to say hotels suitable for heads of government. Few. Right? Right? There's a good Chinese restaurant, but...

1:14:46 We don't want to name any hotels. Maybe for department or ministry retreats, it's okay.

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