Guest Nicholas Briggs talks about comfort Doctor Who and The Light at the End

0:00 hi I'm Morin o'ban and this is the Sirens of audio what's not to enjoy doct back first of all I just wanted to say I'm really jealous yeah I think I have a lot of sympathy with people who think that John per is the best Doctor Who you're allowed to be an old man now exactly I weet like a baby I've just been crying in the shower because of you typical Nick Briggs just going mad he's never had a crush on me let's challenge challenge that could be a new s in your podcast it is that we have gone on a several tangents we're in a warrant going on different tangents all over the place if there was one person you expected not to want to do a multi-doctor story it would be Tom Baker and maybe I did dress up as Santa Claus

0:46 and put a funny hat on and stuff but I don't know oh yeah in episode nine of that story the daughter of the scripts editor was in fact the husband's wife of the man who you know snot it's just snot [Music]

1:35 good day audio files this is the S of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who in the audio medium I'm Dwayne and I'm Philip good Dwayne G audio files get a Phillip it's a special episode today because this is the day that the 60th anniversary episode is going out and joining us on this day is the the man from whom I stole the title of this podcast it's Nicholas Briggs good day Nick hello hello good day I mean sorry Hello's fine Nick welcome you can't say good day you can't say good day with an English accent can you no you don't don't do it just don't do it it's cultural appropriation that's what it is welcome how are things uh over where you are you're not in your usual location at the

2:21 moment no I'm in London at the moment because I uh I came here for a uh screening of an episode that will have ADD today and uh and you you had some nice things to say about it before we came on are they still the same now we're officially recording well they're even nicer now we're officially recording oh good yes marvelous excellent well I'm sure I'm sure I've enjoyed as well I think it's fantastic what's not to enjoy do Who's Back Doctor Who's Back deid tenant's back Don's back oh look yeah can't wait it's been away for a long time hasn't it it has been when you think about it

3:06 yeah yeah when was the last episode when was when was Jody's October October last year was it yeah it was just just over 12 months ago well by time when this is airing it will be 13 months ago for the BBC BBC Center it was 100th but we uh uh not only is it the 60th today but we are here today to talk about a story that you produced Nick for the 50th Anniversary called the light at the end and we want to talk to you a little bit about that in depth but before we do that philli do you know what no what Dwayne we're gonna do it all together we're gonna jump down the rabbit hole let's go here you [Applause]

3:54 [Music] go all right thanks for joining us down the r hole Philip do you think I could go first this time with with my question I usually ask you and put you on the spot but yeah no of course you can go first my question is since it's the anniversary season of Doctor Who and it's a the the decade ones are always big the 40th 50th 60th Etc the 70th is going to be huge I can see it now um a lot of us fans tend to go to our comfort episodes of of Doctor Who so my question to you both will be what's your comfort Doctor Who episode and I I was inspired by you Nick cuz I listened to the extras for audacity um when I listened to that yesterday and you mentioned an episode that you really have affection for um

4:39 but I want to talk just briefly about mine and that would be I I find it interesting that at this time I've I've gone to a third doctor Adventure season s and it's Doctor Who and the Sans that's one that's a comfort episode for me for many many reasons but one of the things that I keep remembering when I when I go back to this episode is that this was probably the first episode I recorded on cassette off the TV uh I two episodes of it episode five episode seven so I listen to those two episodes I can still repeat them back verbatim um but it was at a time when my parents were building a house so Dad would go to work my parents would go out

5:25 after us kids came home from school and I would look after my younger brother and sister Doctor Who would come on and it was the mid mid 80s um the third and fourth doctors were being repeated all the time on on Australian television and it was the Third Doctor there's something totally unique about the third doctor and something that the dare I say I'm speaking as an old man now the the the younger generation seems to find the third doctor at times little bit abrasive a little bit rude they do don't they they don't seem to be able to cope with him but for me I found John Pertwee the Third Doctor to be a very safe person to be with um he was he was the crazy uncle that you wanted to hang out with but you always knew you were safe

6:10 and that's the feeling I always had with the third doctor and particularly season 7 some some people say that's where he's most abrasive um but I I just don't get that and so Doctor Who on the silans is my comfort episode not to mention Carrie blon's music it just suits that episode perfectly do you guys have any thoughts on that episode well I named it you will I think you'll now know that I the radio times newsletter email newsletter in this uh country well available on the internet so anyone can look at it um asked a load of Doctor Who people to sort of take over the newsletter for one edition and you know Sophie's done it and a load of other people and they ask me to do it and they ask you to name your top uh

6:57 three Doctor Who episodes and after saying it's impossible because it changes daily for me but do Who and the sorians is one of them so I'm I'm completely on your side with that uh it is weird isn't it how I you working with younger people they say oh you know of course the Third Doctor he's very patronizing and authoritarian isn't he I thought what never got that never got it I thought he's just really yeah just like you say safe a safe kind man I suppose you look at it through Modern Eyes and he has that slight air of authority about him he just took that from against Authority as well you know talks down chin and exos he talks down all everyone who comes in Authority he

7:43 talks them down and abuses them and and puts puts him down so he's not he's not an authority figure he's he's the opposite it's it's not so much abuse as just not taking nonsense and you know not being walked over by someone he pretty awful about chin yeah but Chim isbe is a selfs serving imbecile yeah very good well that's mine philli what about yours um mine is probably robot of death I think um so when I when I started watching the show I think it was it was during the concert repeats of Tom Baker John Perry um which we got out here and I kicked off about the Android to Invasion but the robots of death and the strangle of Pamela Salem to is a

8:29 scene that's really emotionally affected me I think I think I'd already had a crush on to by that stage and um I still do with Pamela Salem just she just has to talk and I'm off um and that's scene where she's Tom Baker used to Tom Baker used to say about Pamela s she's so beautiful when she came on stage men would weep yes well I can relate to that and when I thought she was dead it was the strongest emotional reaction I think I'd ever had to a TV show because it takes you a while to work out that she's not actually dead um and then she survived when know hardly anyone that so did um and Lis Jameson's performan is amazing the sets and everything and so I remember that going through and then repeating back and then coming back to it again and every time it came back I just that show

9:15 just grew and grew and it's if I have to pull out a DVD and watch something that's the one I pull out and throw in I think it's just the perfect Doctor Who the plotting the acting the architecture there the costuming the makeup everything just jills to make this amazing piece of work even the silly headdresses make sense it's interestingly when I started recording Doctor Who off air with my old beta cassette recorder robots of death was number one in my collection so that was the first episode I ever recorded it's Pro so it's probably the one I've seen more times than any other and um yeah it was it was fascinating to talk with Brian Croucher a few episodes ago about his Recollections of that if you go back

10:01 to that episode he's got an interesting story not so much about the production but one of his guest cast members um go back and listen to that it's quite amusing he had a happy time I can imagine I can imagine with Brian what about you Nick what's your comfort Doctor Who uh well first of all I just wanted to say I'm really jealous although it was 10 years or so later that you had an audio recording of the s you know if I I would have loved to have had an audio recording of it you know when I first saw it it's I had to wait until uh uh Frontier in space before IID actually thought of doing audio recordings and as I might have told you guys before I only recorded it to get the theme tune I eventually realized I could just buy the record and it was in

10:47 fact the first record I ever bought the Doctor Who theme of course but in 1973 and I accidentally would stop because I was so concerned about missing the beginning of the M theme tune I'd start recording before the end of the episode and then I realized I was listening to those little fragments of episodes more and I recorded more and more as the story went on I thought right and I kicked myself for not recording planet of the dox but I thought the next time the Dos are back I'm going to record them which is why I'm so obsessed with death to the DX because it was the first story I didn't record it in its entirety because I didn't have enough tape but I thought the darx won't be in episode one anyway I'll record it from episode two onwards I was pretty much right about that um so uh a comfort episode gosh it's they're all such a comfort to me

11:33 particularly the 70s ones uh death to the DAR obviously as you may have heard Benji and I going on about on the big finish podcast we're watching John per in black and white because that's how I first saw it and I have this Theory Stephen Nunan I think might have introduced the theory to me that um he's our first doctor in case you don't know I know you guys know um that a lot of the directors working on Doctor Who back then were trained in black and white and even though of course they were fully aware they were working in color it's they were still thinking of it in terms of those sort of Stark contrasts of of gradations of shading and if you watch the episodes in black and white they visually just work a lot better I think

12:19 it takes until we get to maybe the final um John per season where actually it probably starts to work better in color although actually death the dox works well in black and my anyway um it's really I want to say evil of the dals but I can't watch it but you know I just would love to see evil of the dals again I saw it twice and I want to see it at least three times before I die that' be nice wouldn't it um perhaps it will Flash before my eyes as I'm dying just grab hold of that but some seen even the dials before we were able to so is it as good is your memory of it as as good as everyone yeah and also you see that surviving episode cements it actually because it's so

13:05 tightly directed isn't it it's such a lovely piece of work with that really good incidental music it's perfect I think and it's um and I think that even though I think the pl plot probably meanders a bit when they're running around in Scaro and and all that but yeah I I I loved it so much I was so delighted when it was repeated I think it took me like an episode to realize I'd seen it before because I was very young at the time I thought hold on a sick that's that one oh great you know I was really excited about that but I was going to say with season seven basically I said to a mate the other night on the phone fellow doctor hoan I said if I start watching spearhead from space uh I'm sunk I have to watch that

13:52 whole season I can't I can't stop at the end of I have to do the whole lot and I I love it because it's because it's the John per era but not the John per era it's before they kind of worked out exactly what they were doing and it sort of it feels fascinating because it's Unique and you're right I think I think John per is less comfy in that you know but I don't think he puts a foot wrong I think it's a brilliant performance he's yeah I was talking to Katie I was so proud to chat to ktie Manning about it and tell her the truth that I was always a bit dodgy about John pery because when he left he said he hated the DXs and I was upset about that so I I went well that's the end of you John per and then I met him and he's a very intimidating man and it upset me quite a lot but I've gone back to it I think it's the career of

14:38 his it's the performance of his career I need got the words around the wrong way um you know he he it's a brilliant piece of work yeah I think I have a lot of sympathy with people who think that John Perry is the best Doctor Who you know my favorite doctor always has to be Patrick charton but you know it is a storming piece of work I think have you given the animations a try because of course you can watch evil of the darks in animation do you find that I certainly bought the Blu-ray or the DVD or whatever it was a disc thing I put in a machine um yes I mean I've I um I think it's great that the animations exist um I worry about them overwriting my actual memories so I think I'd prefer

15:23 personally no disrespect to the people who put tons of effort into the the animation um but personally I'd rather watch um the photo reconstructions difficult sometimes where there are no Tes snaps um and some of those to watch are hilarious when they're just constantly using little cutout bits of other photos but I don't know it's um the problem with the uh animations is that to make animation really really good you have to have lots of money and they clearly have very very low budgets and there's a lot of people working on them for nowhere near as much money as they should be paid a lot of really really talented great people working on them

16:09 and but they can't achieve what they want to achieve and so they've adopted sort of stylized choices and some of those and I'm not very keen on the way they've altered some of the episodes I don't quite see the point of that um but you know that's just my point of view I'm 63 what can you say you're allowed to be an old man now exactly so so you would have been excited with the return of is it 10 years ago now that enemy of the world and fear were returned so did were those still in your I I wept I wept like a baby you know I did I not tell you the story that last time I

16:54 was on that um it was being they were being released on iTunes as it was then Y and I was in America at some big convention and I was in the terrible little hotel room and uh I was woken up by a text from uh my friend James George who didn't know I was in America so he thought he was texting me during the day but he was actually texting me in the middle of the night so I was woken up I I didn't I hadn't worked out how to turn off my notifications back then so I thought oh God bony just got to sleep who's that and he said are we excited about web aan enemy of the world on iTunes and I thought we are excited and I bought them

17:39 immediately and downloaded them and I thought I just watch a little bit I just watched the whole lot didn't get any sleep so I was a bit emotionally overall and then I got in the shower I thought it's time to get up now and as the water was pouring on me I just burst into tears joy and just because it was like a as I think I said at the time it was like a a dead relation who you loved dearly knocking on the door going hi I'm still alive by the way and you just go oh my God I texted um Fraser Hines and told him I said I've just been crying in the shower because of you I don't know how he took that typical Nick Pricks just going mad yeah but yeah it

18:24 was a hugely emotional experience I'm getting quite teary talking about it now hugely emotional yeah what amazed me about particularly the enemy of the world was I heard it a couple of times on audio with the with the narration I knew basically what the what the story was but I could not believe how much it went up in my estimation when I actually saw the the the product as it was originally intended it was incredible work I hadn't heard the Audio I just remembered it from being a kid as one that bored me because you know it's not for in it exactly I just thought and when I'd heard about it after oh godam that was that one I I probably missed some of the episodes because I found it so dull you know Doctor Who's a bit rubbish at the moment I I was thinking I imagine um

19:11 but yeah a total Revelation to see it again and it's just so glorious isn't it so so many great performances I I do remember having I must have watched quite a lot of it actually I remember had a real crush on Astrid you know yeah marry pitch Mar pit yeah yeah I think Fraser Hines did too I think Fraser hin crush on everybody he worked with he's never had a crush on me well true well I mean not that I know of and of course I mentioned before that that you made mention of Revenge of the Cyberman in the extras to the latest big finish release audacity um and of course there's a connection there with Doctor Who and the solans with the with the interal music G

19:59 blighton it's a very very very interesting uh choice of choice of music I don't know if it works quite in the same way as it did with the syuan and death of the dialects by the way yes I don't know what his um criteria were for uh the music in Revenge of the Cyberman um all that sort of deep sort of horn stuff on that piccolo trumpet um you know and iied when we did Doctor Who that would return of the um Cybermen when we did a lost stories version of it on big finish you know I was delighted to do the music and um and I did it in that Carrie bighton style but you're Crossing it over with sort of Orion stuff as well weren't you well the

20:46 certainly the same Melodies yes that I'd created for the Cybermen yeah yeah but the the want of a a less High futin word the orchestration of it the arrangement of it was very and the the instruments were is very much not only Carrie blighton score for revenge of the Cyberman but also uh the additions by Peter how and the radiophonic workshop I use some of those electronic sounds as well I had too much fun doing it I think there's slightly too much music in it let me put it that way I think I should have just left it quiet but I just couldn't stop myself you know oh yeah it's marvelous I love it I love it I find that I find it easier to do that kind of music than the Dudley Simpson style stuff I tried to do for

21:33 the Third Doctor um yeah it's I think it's because there's a more uh primitive stripped back quality to Carrie Bon's music um so you know if you're more of a primitive stripped back musician um you uh you find that easier to do you know he will often just use a a solo instrument doing something and nothing else with it so I love your score intelligence intelligence for war you did the score for that didn't you that was oh yes yeah I do all Dr bu that's a great school so as I was listening to that recently about a week ago I was the mus I was getting distracted by the music because I was enjoying the music so much it was

22:18 putting me back in the period And I had to go back oh better listen to that again because I missed the dialogue because I was off with the music so oh that's nice thank you I think that's a compliment I'm always it's it's always a challenge to do that cheerful music that dley Simpson quite often did when the when the the tardus I was gonna say when Bessie wases past and he always used to sort of do so I always I always try to do something jolly and it's very difficult to to it I haven't got the courage to do something as outrageous as Dudley Simpson going I sort of do it and I go oh I don't know that's that's a bit weird isn't it so um but I settled on something for intelligence for war that I was really happy with but yeah always

23:04 uh it's sometimes you know having a young producer Heather challeng working on it it's a challenge sometimes to um let's challenge challenge that could be a new segment in your podcast um for her to understand the music like I did the music for uh one with Katie um called super nature and I decided to uh towards Malcolm Clark for it it still gets slightly too melodic for a Malcolm Clark ripoff but some you know he did the sea Devils um uh but uh I there was some cues that had a question she said why is there a spaceship taking off at the end of that scene I said no it's music you know because it was sort of

23:49 going I don't know whether Zoom is cutting all that off but yeah and I I had to say just trust me I know it sounds weird but but it's it's just fitting he said um for the period very good isn't it it is that we have gone on a several tangents we're in a Warren it's it's going on different tangents all over the place all right let's climb up out of the rabbit hole do you think uh Philip it's time to have a chat about uh light at the end I would love to do that all right let's throw in a trailer right here and we'll be back with Nicholas Briggs in a moment [Music] you know old girl sometimes I think you're probably the finest ship ever to

24:35 have sa The Vortex he I word so now we know now we know for sure but why are they here H why are all the doctors here hello my dear doctor what is it missa here look in the doll's house what look through the window come on Ace run back to the Tardis what's happened where am I you're in the Tardis how do you do I beg your pardon oh no need to I'm the doctor and this is I am Lea all of them they were you here we go 3 minutes 5 1703 23rd of

25:22 November 1963 the 23rd of November 1963 9 a barnesfield crescent Totton Hampshire Crescent Toton Hampshire England Earth stop fidling about that get on with it Charlie I'm sorry I'm sorry we'll come back for you you hear me Charlie doctor no appear to be some kind of warning all this Cloak and Dagger business you're clearly up to no good by all means please do come out to play doctor I'm waiting for you next anniversary stories when you think of televised anniversary stories what do

26:09 you think of in terms of Doctor Who firstly I don't know do do you have a favor I mean is an emotional favor you have in terms of Doctor Who on TV well I mean obviously the three doctors although uh I mean here's the thing for whatever reason and let's not we before we started recording we did a bit of a therapy session for me uh let's not do another one of those but for for whatever reason I'm I'm not a great celebrator I I never really I don't I mean obviously I acknowledge Christmas and stuff but I don't a lot of people like oh goody there're sort of let's celebrate something let's have a party

26:55 and I'm I I have a sort of it feels almost like an allergy to that kind of thing so I'm not and when other people at Big finish say oh we've got the whatever anniversary of this coming up I you know I go okay yeah we better do something for that then I'm such a miserable old kagin um but but you know once I'm there at a celebration I usually I usually enjoy it I might leave early though uh it's lucky I didn't leave before the end of light at the end isn't it um so it's yeah there and I think I think the reason I'm so funny about celebrating is that there's such a hype for celebration isn't there that they almost that any celebration is almost

27:40 destined not to live up to your expectation you I remember that as a kid being so insanely excited about Christmas I mean like ill with excitement and then you get there and you think oh it was just another day wasn't it it was just another day maybe I did dress up as Santa Claus and put a funny hat on and stuff but I don't know um so they're quite difficult for me and difficult to know because to me what do what do you do to celebrate you know do you just go hooray hooray hooray here a load of balloons here are all the doctors here you know I resisted that for light at the end uh for ages well it wasn't light at the end then it was nothing David Richardson you know kept saying to me he was the line producer

28:25 then he kept saying to me you know we should really do something and Alan Barnes and I were formulating something and I really can't remember I honestly can't remember what it was but it was not it was going to be what we thought was sort of like quintessential Doctor Who but it wasn't going to be a greatest his thing um but then David convinced me with two things John Dorney had come up with a vague framework and he said we're kind of thinking something like this and I thought that's quite good uh and also it Tom Baker said can't we do a a celebration where we get all the guys in he said I thought well if there was one person you expected not to want to do a multi-doctor story it would be Tom Baker and the fact that Tom Baker was the one saying C why are we not doing can we do

29:11 this please that we that we decided to do it and I thought I thought there's no dodging this it's it's my job to do it you know I'm the creative director I'm meant to be the person who's at the center of this in in some form and I thought and I thought if we are going to do a celebration then I'll do it my way it's like you know at our wedding we had no music because we can't stand dancing you know so everyone thought we were a bit miserable but we had a fantastic time yeah so this was for the 50th Anniversary so yeah so how far before the 50th Anniversary did the planning have to start well that was all down to David Richardson but it started pretty early yeah I can't remember how I it must have been over a year in advance

29:58 and David kept make getting other people involved he kept saying oh now we've got so and so and I said well where are they going to fit in he said well you know that scene where uh Charlie goes into the Tardis and she's and maybe something can happen with the walls of time or something and I went okay you can write that bit so David Richardson wrote those bits okay so you're credit as the writer how much of this did you write then well all of the rest of it okay like the story and what was going on that little thing but you know the scene it was just really weird is everyone goes oh hello what are you doing here I've never heard of you oh I'm strange and nether know it was just a little um little skit in the

30:44 middle of an otherwise robust narrative so before the five doctors Robert Holmes complains about the fact he just be kept being giving list of this has to be included this has to be included you've man yeah he should have done what I did and said someone else write those bits if you're so Keen in having those in someone else do it I'm not doing that I've written like a proper story here so how how did you put your story together how did you decide which do well which doctors is obvious the once big finish had but which companions how big a role companion would have I mean one things I love what you do is so it doesn't get overly cuted you have amazing scenes with Dr companion and then at an appropriate time the companion just sort of oop they're off um otherwise the story would have been so cluttered but when did you

31:30 decide to do things like that because that was a bit of a master stroke to have these lovely scenes and then get rid of them and keep the doctors how do you how did that all come about do you remember the processes at all uh well I I do I'm rather proud of myself that I've reached that stage of my career that I can give the kind of answer that I saw uh people who worked on the TV series of Doctor Who giving it conventions years ago they say well it was a long time ago so I do feel that it's a long time ago I it but I I know that David Richardson and I discussed it quite a bit and I was very keen not to have a tardis full of people all bumping into each other and and you know you constantly have to go through and thinking what would their attitude be to this situation with the time you get through everyone having their say the

32:16 the dramatic momentum of the scene is lost because it's all just about ticking the box of whoever's going to speak next and I think you can do that in a short burst but you can't sustain whole narrative with that going on so I knew I very much wanted the each doctor and one other person with them having an adventure I know I have that big Crossover with the eighth and the fourth doctor and Charlie and Leela um but uh generally they sort of stick within their own bounds and then uh the doctors come together at the end don't they and that was I wanted that to be I didn't want it to I wanted to be a story and not crowd control yeah now you you managed to give the the first second and third doctors still important roles without a lot of narrative if you did today we hadn't

33:03 done our recasting that's going to say if you did it today would you have had given them a even more prominent role yeah yeah I'd really love to do a new version uh a new new new version of a sort of three doctors thing and use you know because these days I I mainly when my Hands-On work at Big finish is with the first second and third doctors you know and none of whom you know are those actors alive anymore and so we've done those recasts which people have been you know by and large pretty positive about I understand the problem it is for some people and possibly would be for me if I was on the outside of it but I love the way people have sort of bought bought into them you know um

33:49 so yeah I kind of would love to get those guys together as well I know that you know Tim and Steven Tim tror plays the third doctor and Steven n plays the first doctor they they get on very well they like chalk and cheese I mean Steven is um you know a Mad Doctor Who fan as mad a doctor who fan as me and I will be seeing him later this week and we will have a fantastic Mad Doctor Who evening talking tight minute detail about everything probably you know Inferno or something um but and and Tim is a bit like doctor Tim sends me go I've watched the demons and I say what do you want to medal you know he said and he goes oh I really like the silarian I didn't like

34:35 ambassadors of death he said I said well it's it's a tough watch that one but I adore it he's like brings your mad um so you know Tim does this impersonation of Stephen where he just sort of says oh yeah in episode nine of that story the daughter of the script editor was in fact the husband's wife of the man who you know and he he Lampoons Steven's detailed knowledge whilst also um inadvertently making fun of himself because you know in order to improvise that Tim has to reveal that he knows nothing about Doctor Who except that he has watched the demons and he does keep did he get that medal yeah no no but maybe one day I'll do that for him he uh he's also he's got

35:20 it in his head he wants to write a third doctor Adventure okay that'd be good and he's got he's got ideas percolating and there's there's something there it will require a bit of work but okay wow okay who here first brilliant actually on the on the casting of the first doctor in light at the end I found myself just briefly thinking who who is this I couldn't I'd completely forgotten it was William Russell of course who was doing a lot of first doctor at the time and we haven't heard him for for such a long time time it was lovely to have him in in that role yeah um for the 50th so he's been in the 50th he was in last year's um episode as well

36:06 and um so yeah that was that was really nice so in terms of being director so you know the rise of hands who his script which in this case is you hand yourself a script um it it was a very long time ago how was the process in terms of putting together the cast how do you go about recording such a mammoth work with so many people well you know you on your producer and David Richardson was the producer and it was a logistical challenge of enormous proportions and you know David just pointed me in the right direction you know he just sort of said this is these are who you're going to be recording with on these this day not all of them could be there so we need someone to read in here and then you'll do this other session with this other person here so he absolutely I mean you know

36:52 after I'd written the script I I'd tried to do a schedule to show who we needed but it was really my schedule had to fit around availability really and so it was a real jigsaw puzzle and all in the wrong order and uh yeah all all over the place it was it was a nightmare that was my least favorite part of it actually doing the directing and being there with the actors and talking about the scenes that was great but the whole the fact that I had to keep sort of you know re angling my brain in order to work out where I was I I find it you know much I've always found it much easier as much as possible to do everything in story order which you can achieve more easily on audio because you don't have to keep knocking sets down and rebuilding them

37:38 or whatever you know but you know we have that flexibility to do it in a different order in terms of availability yeah I it's like um you know one of the reasons we probably won't do any more space 1999 is just getting the cars together it just became so ridiculous by the last SE season I don't think I think only two people recorded together and you just think it it it luckily they're all brilliant uh and it edits together beautifully and you hardly know but it does uh slightly suck some of the joy out of it but I think it was quite it was great to have Tom Baker and Paul McAn in the studio together it was very strange they really jelled in performance but they hardly spoke

38:25 otherwise I seem to remember I mean not not in a frosty way they sort of sat in the green room together of all right yeah yeah you know to me it was very strange and so especially since they're both from Liverpool you'd think they would have a lot to discuss but it was a sort of a strange experience just on space 1999 you should just get Glenn mccre to play everybody well I suppose that would be an option I know there was one instance in the last series where someone's like another actor lines were lost because of the fragmented process and so we rewrote some scenes and had Glen mccree's characters say those lines instead and change the sense of it slightly rather than go through the

39:12 whole process of trying to get the actor back who was far less available one of the things that stood out to me I'm very sensitive to to to music theme tune there was a special theme tune done for this episode um I don't know if you had much to do with that but listening to it this time it actually I actually got Shivers chills up up my arm because um because of the way it was arranged and I love electric guitar philli you know I love electric guitar and it's got in the I love flute it has a lovely flute part in it it's got that in there too it's got everything so did you have anything to do with that theme Arrangement Nick well of course it's Jamie Robertson and his music really does have the ability is sort of a you know to to move move you

39:57 it slams into you quite often a real emotional uh thud um for what of a better way um Jamie said to me I'd like to do something that has loads of different Doctor Who era elements in it and I said okay uh that could just sound like an awful noise but give it a go and he said and he was really Keen to do it he said how about this and I said yes that's fantastic I love it so I don't I don't I don't remember giving any notes about it because I have there you know if you spoke to Jamie uh he'd probably bring his dog along as well but if you spoke to Jamie he would uh tell you that I have on various product Productions um

40:45 being very close with my notes you know very sort of nitpicky and say no you need to just get look this bit here like with the UFO and um uh what else or the prisoner you know I gave you know he he went through a lot of pain with me for the prisoner but once Jamie gets it and clicks into the right mode he just flies you don't need to say anything else to him because he goes oh that I get it now you mean that I now that makes sense to me and this theme for light of the end is an instance where I think he didn't need all that he he had an idea and we were sympatico on that I just thought yeah I love what you're thinking about I'm glad you like it yeah i' I've relistened to that theme quite often and

41:31 enjoyed the sheer well celebratory nature of it that I like to Celebration it it is a huge theme and I stopped and listen to it a lot too Dwayne in terms of this is a huge celebration all the doctors it's it's got a traditional feel in terms of and it was celebrated as such in terms of bringing together those doctors big big not big finish in Doctor Who monthly I remember having a a big spread some lovely filters with the doctors all on couches it was really well received is the last but is this going to be the last time something like this because this this year you've gone for The Once and Future concept very different concept to celebrate the 60th do you think we'll ever see something like this again or is this going to be the last herah of a multi doctor

42:18 story yeah well I never say never I mean let's see how what what year would be this it would be 33 the 70th yeah I mean I might not be here oh you'll still be here but you might might be I might have retired I don't see you retiring either but that might be interesting yeah yeah I don't know I'm not I'm not thinking or I did have a fantastic idea for a sort of really special anniversary style story that I'm not going to tell you about now um but and it sort of was multi-doctor but not in the way you'd expect it to be I

43:03 think you know what you've got to do it for an anniversary thing is boil down what exactly you think embodies what you think is important about Doctor Who at that particular moment in history that's what Russell's done with his specials uh and it's you know not multi-d doctor stories it's something that for him just gets to the heart of Doctor Who and restates its purpose for uh you know a new audience um so there are many and who knows what the world will be I mean you know in in uh 10 years ago we couldn't predict what the the world is very different now to the way it was 10 years ago so much has changed and goodness me it will change as much again by the time

43:50 we get to the 70th Anniversary so I don't know I mean what do you do you think the world's going to be like in 10 years time that stumped you hasn't it yeah it sure has terrifying I mean it's gonna be I'll probably be walking with a stick I'd imagine I mean mean you always hope that the world be better in 10 years time but we don't seem to be learning any lessons at the moment it's a bit hard to say yeah I think we were quite optimistic 10 years ago but it's all gone a bit weird hasn't it I think you're right I think 10 20 years ago we were far more optimistic that you know we're heading in the right direction and now there's sort of yeah we're just things are being swept up and every issue this this really weird thinking

44:37 goes on like you probably haven't heard but in the UK you know our government's solution to uh one of their solutions to homelessness they've noticed that homeless people use tents when it's um riging so their idea to solve homelessness is to legal for them to have tents which just you just think you that's the kind of thing you put in a science fiction story as an example of a sort of crazy thinking wouldn't you yeah anyway but that's well if it's illegal you could arrest them lock them up then they've got a rof their head is that what is that what they me yeah yeah is that it yeah and then they're complain that the prisons are too full and oh you know well they try and find them but they money to pay that just yeah yeah

45:23 it's maybe try and solve the root cause yeah we've given up on that don't do that just complain about it and just make people hate them Beggars believe what what are you looking most forward to in terms of celebrations in the future you're not a big celebration person but in terms of this the 60th and where big finish is going what's what's what's the what's exciting you at the moment that you can talk about H I'm very excited about uh fugitive of the darx coming out next year uh which you know that uh Vicki is in it with the first doctor yes um I'm very excited about the plans we've got

46:08 for our next second doctor box set uh I'm Mark Wright and I are writing them uh because there's so many continuity strands to pick up it ended the last box it ended on a cliffhanger it did and we're getting more uh first doctor stories uh in the back because I want to you know work with some of the other companions as well you know we've got uh Morin O'Brien who's who I love and who's brilliant and lots of other brilliant people hopefully coming in to appear with the first doctor so th those are my ranges that I have the biggest involvement uh with uh I just started doing the music on next year's first

46:55 third doctor Adventure we haven't revealed the title so I can't tell you about that but I've started doing the music on it and it's very it's a Sarah Jane my look just that you can have exclusive the the Third Doctor sets are getting better and better like I I can't believe how the last two in particular have just blown me away um and they're very different aren't they we try to make them other and I was I was so I was so skeptical about the recasting I must admit didn't get the first originally I didn't get the first couple of boxes of Tim drilia and then I was you know I was sort of talking to getting the third one and of course went back and bought the first two because he's just great and brings a new dimension but just the storytelling is just getting better and

47:40 better with each story yeah the seven episodes and it's got the whole feel right and it just it just brings back so much Nostalgia but more than that just really good quality stories so that's what well I like to I like to get the two together I mean you know there's no point just being no nostalgic but it not being a well constructed Story You've Got it's got to be you know and I and I want to imitate the kind of way they told stories in those days but adding a little twist of modern energy yeah yeah and and when we're doing the um the Joe Jones and the Third Doctor ones we have a bit of License to do something a bit weirder and a bit more modern there's one of those coming up next year as well which is uh uh

48:28 which I'm working uh it's been written by not by me but I'm working on the script at the moment as script editor and it's really good and it but it has a real modern sensibility about it it's a real emotional core to it whereas I think the sort of traditional Third Doctor stories or like like a lot of traditional English entertainment is people uh not emoting people holding back all the time and then the the drama comes from the fact that they're not expressing themselves as clearly as the audience wants them to and that you you get a catch in the throat because of that you know I quite like that kind of thing uh you know like brief encounter where you know that movie where it's it's largely about people having feelings but not expressing them and not saying anything about them and

49:14 yet you know they're having the feelings you know it's funny that it was the Joe Jones said that had me in tears was it earlier this year or was it last year the years going by so quickly I can't remember you know I can't remember on the top of my head because I think it was earlier this year yeah I certainly bit when she's talking about Cliff yes and you know it's about Stuart too so yeah that when you know that it makes it much more powerful and yeah I was I was blubbing yeah yeah you've heard the story about how that went didn't you because she uh Katie the gorgeous Katie who I saw last night always delightful to see her she um she had a long I said you know I want us to get this ride so Matt fitton's

50:01 writing it have a conversation with Matt she said yes I'd like that so she spoke to him and they talked about how they were going to handle the whole cliff thing I said do you want Cliff to be dead because Stuart's dead or what do you want to do do you want to just say he's not there because my initial plan I have to say was to have Stuart in it and have cliff in it you know and then then sadly he died which is you know terrible news uh and uh so anyway she saides I think he he should be dead in the storyline as well and I said okay well talk to Matt about how you think we don't want to do anything that you know you don't feel you can support you know it has to be the way you want it so they had a great conversation and she was very happy with the result of the conversation and then the script came in and then she said to me as she always

50:47 does on the phone she said she said well he's got it all wrong it's not right at all I said but this is he's writing what you told him to write and she said oh well I said listen it's all right my love just you know you she always changes bits here and there I said just bring your changes in and you know we'll it'll work and she said yeah yeah I'll do that it' be great be great and so she came into the studio I said so now we come to this last scene uh so what changes have you got for me she would go through it she said oh I was just thinking of making it up she said and I said okay and okay she said so you say your lines and I'll just say other things so we did two takes where she just said all sorts of things and and uh and she scribbled some

51:36 stuff on her script but she was mainly just improvising and both times she cried uncontrollably um and I think you do need a bit of the brief encounter holding back because otherwise it's just if you pardon the phrase snot it's just snot you know it's all that and and it just becomes unpleasant it's not you don't have any emotional involvement with it you're just thinking has she not got a handkerchief so I said and she said is that all right and I said there's so much brilliant stuff in there I said leave it to me I'll sort it out and she said okay darling I don't think I could do it again because she was emotionally exhausted and so when we gave it to the editor Luke pnik I think it was wasn't it was it Luke pnik that

52:23 one could have been I I can't remember the top of my head well I said to the editor I said I'm not going to make you edit that I said send me the dialogue stems for that final scene and I will edit that scene for you because otherwise I spend ages going no not that bit the bit okay send it me again no no that I you know some sometimes luckily because I am a sound designer you know my skill set involves that I can leap in there and do it I mean that's by the by just to go off on a little bit of a rabbit hole um the um uh how I work with uh Toby herit Robinson um when he does music for us you know I say okay this music's brilliant send me the stems that's the

53:10 individual tracks of all the bits and I said and may I just have a little play with it and he lets me do that and I often reposition his music put extend it and mess around with it and and stuff and then bless him he always says that's much better isn't it and I and go few um so I like I like to get in there I you know I said I could give you notes but it will just bore us both to death just let me pull my sleeves up and just get under the Bonnet because I know how this should work and luckily he trusts me and that's what I did with Katie's final scene in supern nature who was it did you look it up well the sound design could be by Luke but unfortunately with the website that just throws everybody in it's either David roft Benji Clifford or Luke Luke but it probably was Luke

53:55 i' go with your your guess it's it's it's sound design is by three people for each different stor it wasn't Lo maybe it wasn't luk anyway don't think it was Benji I no we were just talking dway I were talking before as soon as audacity started we went oh that's Benji um because we we picked Benji immediately because of the the detail I don't know how it's time to put so much detail in um so yeah my guess would be would be either Luke or David roft yeah we did well yeah yeah yeah can I say it's going a wi about anything it be the website in terms of you please lay things out or give me access so I can fix

54:42 it well there is allegedly a new one coming soon oh no we're always saying that aren't we even before this one we were saying another one's coming soon but you know as creative director uh once upon a time I had big involvement with website stuff and could pick up a phone to the person responsible for it and get them to do things and uh the big old big finish got people would say to me things like you've got too many responsibilities Nick and it's driving you insane you know there are other people here who can deal with these things and what's more we don't want you to talk to the people who run the website and um so that's why I all gone wrong I I I can't understand I don't know how

55:29 you write as much as you write you direct as much as you direct you acting so many Productions um exit you're reading scripts your your script writing how you do all that for big finish is beyond me and yet you're still doing other things for the main show you're still doing other creative things do you actually have a wife does she actually see you yeah yeah yeah she doesn't want to see me that much luckily she yeah yeah she she has never once said to me why' you keep going away why you're not here because she's very much an accepting sort of person you know she's very happy when I'm there but she never makes me feel bad about not being there which is amazing actually she is quite remarkable really I mean you know you could argue that making

56:14 yourself over busy as my therapist has said is is a form of avoidance avoiding whatever it is about yourself that you don't like you can't face it so you just go busy busy busy busy busy I think there's some truth in that but um yeah and I think you know just to be serious about that whole business about the website I think that people were right when they said to me you can no longer yeah have responsibility for this because it's just crushing and you have to be sensible you know I worry about Jason hegy because he has lots of interests Beyond big finish and he he is I'll say it out loud for him to hear on the internet because I say it to him you know he is doing too much it's it's really difficult to concentrate but he just he just feeds in

57:01 more there are more and more projects keep coming up that he's doing outside of big finish and you just think wow it's just you know you have to try and be sensible you have to work out what it is that's driving you to do too much don't you don't feel like you're doing too much well um I feel I'd really cut back you know in terms of the direct and writing and uh music I'm just doing the first three doctors now and not all of the music by any means the only reason I did the music on um the inent incident was because someone dropped out at the last minute I can't remember who it was dropped out but they did and you know the room was empty and it was just me

57:47 sitting there and I said I bet and and of course I thought actually I'm quite thrilled about doing that but you know I I I um I did that but I I tried to keep myself out of the it's the third doctor I'll do the music for uh and you know and we're recruiting new people all the time getting new producers and new directors on board getting younger people on board trying to find more women more people of color so that it's more representative um what what we do and so yeah yeah so I'm hoping by virtue of pursuing that policy that I won't be quite so bit I it be very difficult to get the first second and third doctor away from me though and you know and I'm working with a young female producer on that and uh and that always brings A New Perspective to it you Heather's got a

58:34 real sense for she goes along with Emma he they they go through all the story lines for all the other ranges with me we worked out that's the best way to do it we have a sort of reading session where you know we're on a zoom and I've got the file I have to read them you know Heather said you're better at reading out than me you do that and I read it out and but you know Heather in particular is pined sharp on um plots inconsistencies or things that aren't explained properly you know and she's go well how come these people and I there a lot of things that I would leave to a writer or a script Editor to sort out she said I don't I don't get why that's happening and think well Fair do better ask them

59:21 and they always do have an explanation you know but they us slightly shortened versions so you can't expect everything there so yeah so hopefully by virtue of getting other people involved you know I will um and I'm not leaping to the four quite so much as I used to to say no no no that's important let me do that you know I didn't with Once and Future the my only contribution to Once and Future I was reminded after I said it's a blooming good title that David David Rich he said yeah it was your idea oh what's it yeah we told you what the project was and said what should it be called they gave me a load of titles I don't like any of those and I came up with Once in the future

1:00:07 so yeah I've just been reminded uh with with mention of your wife that um since we're talking about the light at the end you had another family member appear in that story yeah my son Ben yeah that's when he was young enough to be sort of influenced and say do you want to come and do something for a recording and he'd barely understand what it was yeah and we just went out in my mother's garden and I said imagine you know you're playing football and you know and he's so it's a lovely recording actually because he's actually outside yeah H yeah yeah we always take Mickey out of does he have dreams of becoming an actor no no he's too he's too um shy oh really

1:00:53 he's I was very shy at his age as well and maybe maybe he I don't know what happened to me I sort of blossomed when I was 16 but he's 14 now uh so yeah he's too too shy yeah he doesn't like the idea of getting up and reading aloud or you know he's very much is we've never pressured him into anything so he's kind of developing his own personality without us saying you should and shouldn't do this you know which which mean which means he's one of the loveliest human beings I know he's amazing I love him to bits well of course you'd expect me to say that but I particularly I particularly do I think he's Fant he's 14 and he's not an annoying teenager he's he's still a lovely person who's very genuine and intelligent and asking questions all the time but yeah I so I don't I think the

1:01:39 last time when was the last time I got him to do something uh was it for a sort of ghostly [Music] one where he was like voices of children in oh no what was it it was for the first doctor wasn't it that's right uh the in the um uh what was the first one of the first doctors called I can only remember the last one the demon song of the inent incident it was um the one sat down in the with um Paul Copley he was Paul copley's son in it oh that's right oh the IST the somethingest oh the

1:02:27 miniaturist miniaturist than yeah goodness me I talking about something 10 years ago I can't even remember something it was two years ago um yeah the miniaturist and we'd experimented with the idea of the sun sounding like um an older person and and um you know and we did some Pitch bending it just sounded rubbish and I just said I'll just get B to do it so yeah he and he even managed to do a little bit of a northern accent as well I didn't even ask him to do that but when he heard the Paul Copley speaking I think he just sort of naturally without really thinking about it IM imitated his voice yeah so awesome and it made it so spooky to have an actual child yes his voice is a little

1:03:14 bit deeper now so I just just got him just in time on that one well listen thank you so much for you sharing your thoughts it's um yeah a production that we have really enjoyed and I'd loved going back to and listening to again so thank you for writing and dting it and for talking to us about it pleasure from Big finish Productions Doctor Who the eighth doctor Adventures audacity lady audacity montigue and I'm the doctor there is a comet crossing the sky tonight I am a way to my telescope a shooting star that creeps across the sky it is most curious I did nobody ever tell you to be careful what you wish for the devouring they're called the

1:04:03 devouring I shall consume you doctor this Starship does it take you through the darkness in so many ways ladies gentle beings we're delighted to welcome you to the Orum a gold domain quite literally our Viceroy of Victory Oberon fix audacity we have to leave now they're locking us down humanity and their allies are facing the greatest threat to their existence all Orum security measures are being deactivated a near Unstoppable enemy

1:04:48 that not only courses through the Galaxy but converts it corrupts it the doctor grab some glitter guns glitter bombs anything you can carry you're vogan the guards are vogan but none of the guests at that Gathering were fated foretold this weapon ends the war the cber men never give up it's a cyber mat off the flight deck both of you both of you you will let us in not fight the ha of my chinny chin chin you were right FR it is the silence that get big finish for the love of stories all right uh on that note it's time for some recommendations um I'd love Nick for you

1:05:35 to go first however I've got a little list here and it says that it's Philip's turn sorry Phillip it's your turn you got to go first that's okay I'm actually G to recommend something I've been listening to um this week and because we' do all these specials for the 60th anniversary and other anniversaries I've not had a lot not my fault yeah it's all your folks had a lot of listening time but I download have been listening to audacity and I'm actually going to recommend audacity I love the eighth doctor I'm a huge ath doctor and Charlie fan in particular love him to bits um and love Charlie uh but really exciting to go back and see a different period of the E doctor because in the time War he's getting I don't right he's he's becoming

1:06:20 hardened by the time War which is important for the character and I'm I'm enjoying what the time I was doing I've just finished galif time the room too what's it called the war room um which once again so Bleak but such so brilly written and so bril acted but audacity is light-hearted and it just having just listened to the war room and gone into audacity it was just nice to have fun again and one of the things I love about do who is it can be lots of fun and enjoyment and Paul began having such a good time um I do think the new companion audacity is amazing Jay Griffith is such a great actress I loved her on the TV show I'm loving her performance now um her voice is just so distinctive and the way she plays off Pagan is just so cleverly done um her

1:07:06 introduction story and all the regy period with you know there's a you with um Queen charlott at the moment it's very topical going to the that sort of period of time so it was really freshing my mind in terms of what what it looked like um so I just felt it and it was just such a clever idea so audacity if you haven't got it yet it's really worth a listen so yeah grab it download it it's a brilliant story I've got a bad feeling for your look on your face way you were going to recommend it but I might be wrong but anyhow oh no oh that's how many how many how many episodes of this podcast have we done Philip we have never snapped before on a recommendation today today oh we have snapped yeah because because I wanted to listen to audacity straight away I've been listening to so much stuff I haven't listened to anything else other

1:07:53 than our anniversary themed episodes and I rebelled and went no I'm listening to something new um so I'm going to also choose audacity but look listen to the sound design I as soon as that GL that drink was poured in the opening five seconds I went yeah there's Benji Clifford right there there was so much so much detail I can I could see Benji there with his microphone up against the glass whatever wherever he does that um really really good stuff and I can say I do know for a fact Philip that you haven't heard right to the end yet I have heard right to the end no I haven't the end yet yes there is something is there yeah there is something that you are going to love I know you're going to love it so listen to the end so okay b b

1:08:39 tonight before I go to sleep I'll listen to the last last bit and the great thing about the eighth doctor audios is that there's another one coming next month so you never have enough sorry I I'm sorry I should have done I should done the war

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