Has Your Company Created a Strong Culture Yet? | Stephen Turban | EP 402

0:00 in Vietnam, most companies are not great environments [music] from a cultural perspective to grow as a entry-level team member. So, that means that the average really talented person doesn't have great options. But, if you build a culture [music] that is really learning-oriented, fast-paced, global, you take the best parts of the culture [music] that you bring, and that environment of what is a high-performing company like that look like, and bring that to Vietnam, >> [music] >> that creates a really great arbitrage to hire great people. Best people want to work in an awesome culture. >> Good morning, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Vietnam Innovators Podcast. I'm your host, How. Thank you for tuning in every single week and supporting the pod. Without you, this would not be possible.

0:46 Today, we have a more familiar face on the program and in our studios this morning. His name is Steven Turbin. He's the CEO and founder of Lumiere Education. For those of you in Vietnam, you also might know him as one of the partners of Saigon Teu. Is partner the correct way to describe >> I'm probably talent. >> Talent. Okay. Talent at Saigon Teu, who he's been part of for the last couple years. We're excited to welcome him in the studio today because a lot of people are curious about his passion and hobby at Saigon Teu as a comedian, but also at his work and also passion with education at Lumiere and why he's chosen to be based out of Vietnam. So, Steven, thank you for making time this morning. You're running a global business. You

1:31 probably have calls in the US that you had to kind of reschedule for this. So, >> Yeah. >> you know, really happy to have you here today. >> [music] >> Maybe just start off to the audience a quick little intro about yourself and uh what you're doing, and we'll get into it. >> So, those who don't know me, so I'm Steven. I'm one of the co-founders of Lumiere. Lumiere is a pretty global education business I started with my co-founder about 5 years ago. We're about 100 people. We work with about 4 to 5,000 students each year globally. And we do a bunch of different stuff ranging from online research programs for high school students to in-person summer camps to career prep. So we're pretty like a diversified education company. That's

2:17 my main thing, my main hustle if you will. And then my my serious hobby, I like to call it, is I do stand-up comedy with Saigon Theao, which is a professional comedy group here and is hilarious and awesome and then I love I love doing it. I have a show actually in Hanoi in 2 days. So I'm prepping I'm prepping for that. But I would say 80% of my time I'm doing a startup. 20% of the time I'm kind of fooling around with stand-up comedy. >> I mean, that's a pretty generous breakdown that you're giving to your hobby 20%. >> Yeah. >> You know, before we get into that cuz you know, a lot of people say especially as founders of startup companies, that you just got to lock in, zoom in on like one thing. You know, and and they say at I remember I classmates

3:03 where I went to school and probably you as well. It's like you have to choose between three things. I think it was sleeping, >> Yes. >> having fun {slash} partying, >> Sleep, fun, and academics. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you you've somehow mastered all three in a way. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Hopefully. >> In your own way. >> Yeah, I don't know, but for me, I mean, I think my my biggest mindset when it comes to startups and really anything I do is that the the asset that I need to not lose is myself. >> Yeah. >> So I just get bored. I just get bored easily. So I I want to live an interesting life. And so if for me, doing stand-up comedy, which I kind of do the actually pretty significant amount of my time, that's a way to keep me engaged in kind of all parts of my life. And it's just silly. It's fun. I think

3:49 >> It contributes to your your well-being in a way because if you're too full on just working, it's not sustainable. >> For sure. I think it'd be my life would be kind of boring as well, so. >> Cool. Okay. Yeah, I'm looking forward to talking about that more because you know us. And by the way, for the audience to know, we're doing this podcast mostly to share to you guys cuz you guys are really curious about entrepreneurship stories, people building businesses around the world, but of course, why in Vietnam. >> Yeah. >> I mean, Stephen we literally meet once, perhaps even twice a week talking >> hang out like times, yeah. >> So, it's really about sharing today, just to clarify for the audience. So, Stephen, let's just start with like why Vietnam. I think when people [clears throat] look at your your LinkedIn bio or your paper kind of background, it's like, okay, we have this American who has lived around the

4:36 world as especially as a high schooler, I think. And before that, you lived in Singapore, you lived in Taiwan, and US, of course. And they're probably thinking like, why is this guy here? >> Yeah, totally. So, what are you doing? >> Why don't we just start with that? Like, how did you end up here in the first place? >> Yeah. And >> why are you still here? >> Yeah. So, for me, I wish it was like some really strategic master plan, but what ended up happening was that after college, I wanted to learn a new language. I speak Chinese cuz I went to high school. I was an exchange student in Taipei. So, I'm really into language learning. And then I thought, let me let me try out Vietnam cuz I thought Vietnam is similar to Chinese. It's a rapidly growing place. I didn't really know that much about it. And I came to Saigon for 2 months. And it really changed actually, I would

5:22 I would be honest with you, coming to Saigon for 2 months, 2017 right after college, totally changed my life trajectory. Probably, if it wasn't for it, I'd be hanging out at HBS doing the PhD right now or I don't know, still working at McKinsey or something. But these 2 months just showed me this place that was so fun, so high energy, and also place where I thought there was a lot of opportunities. And so, when I came back to the US, I remember I landed in San Francisco. I was going to sit with some hang out with some friends there and I remember they were allowed to talk about uh San Francisco, startups, etc. But I just want to talk about Vietnam. And so there was definitely like a bug that was like placed in me uh saying, "Hey, you got to come back to Vietnam. Come back to Vietnam." So I came back 2 years. I worked at McKinsey for a couple years, came back to Vietnam in 2019 and I didn't have any job. I just looked around. Eventually I ended up working at Fulbright University and

6:09 then I've been pretty much here ever ever since and I am very in Vietnamese language is like sin viet. Like I'm very like a Vietnamese chauvinist. I love Vietnam. But also think there's lots of opportunities and so I don't think I would have built Lumiere which is just amazing experience if it wasn't for seeing people like you here in Vietnam or realizing how many talented people are in Vietnam that you can build a company with for the world. My company's very global. It's really not a Vietnam play. It's a global play. There's so much reasons why I'm still here but I'd say that's the core stuff. That's excitement that I that I got when I first came >> Yeah. >> to Saigon. >> What was your impression of Vietnamese language, culture, culture, even the country before let's say I think it was 2017. >> 2017, yeah.

6:54 >> What what was your high-level understanding of this place? >> I came when I was 10. My family lived in Singapore. I remember coming with my family. I remember liking it. But it's not a very deep impression when you're 10. I had a few Vietnamese friends and they showed me some some like V-pop. I think I saw I think it was Min and Eric. I think they had a watched one YouTube video or like you know, just some some V-pop from like 2016. I remember being like, "Oh my god, this is like kind of fire." I was like really liked I liked the music video. But I I didn't realize I just felt like Vietnam was growing quickly. It seems like an interesting place. It has a lot of cultural similar roots to places like Taiwan which I know really well. But I didn't have a very deep impression. It's funny. I feel like

7:40 some people come back to Vietnam like yourself, who are Vietnamese origin. It's a It's a newness, but it's also a homecoming. For me, I felt like I came to Vietnam and I almost found a home. I felt like, "Oh my god, this place really fits fits me." It doesn't fit everyone, but it fits me really well. This is not in my notes, but I was reading something earlier this morning before our podcast about this idea of brand Vietnam. Which is this like government initiative that a lot of private companies, individuals all around the world are really like keen on now, which is It's like, what is the the narrative, the story of this of this place? >> Yeah. >> Because Vietnam at a global level, I think everyone still knows it as like food, maybe some travel, some history Vietnam more specifically, but they don't really know more than that.

8:25 >> Mhm. >> And so, you know, I see you as one of these like champions in a way in your own little >> Totally. >> world. >> Totally. >> I guess I'm there, but also through social media, even your company talking about the story and people are are struggling in a good way trying to figure out like how to how to shape this narrative. >> Yeah. >> And you know, I think you're doing you're contributing to that in a way. I think if you gave like a talk about this, I don't know. Not like an official one, but shared your inputs, I think it could really inspire that next generation of Vietnamese you know, brand builders, not just from a brand level, but like culture language to have like advocates, basically. >> For sure. You know, it's so funny. Actually, I've been watching

9:11 a good amount of Korean reality TV shows recently, which is just just fun, but it's really made me think actually about like brand Korea is now a thing. Korea has an identity for even like a random white dude like me. I'm like, "Oh my god, I love like there's one guy Kim Kyung-ho who's like I I know a few of the celebrities now in Korea. And I really am passionate about Vietnam. And I I keep on thinking, how do we make Vietnam into a place that is not just an amazing place for Vietnamese or for like the random white guy like myself who's here, but a place that stands for something globally. I think that Korea's done. And I think Vietnam is actually really well set up to do it. It's not It It needs I think the economic development first.

9:58 In a way like you know, the chaebol, Samsung, these big global companies. But I think once people come to Vietnam, they see, man, this place is so exciting. There's so much here. So it's it's to me it's just a matter of growth and then being proactive in telling that story globally. But the story I think can tell itself as people come to this place, as they experience the culture. And I think there's there's so much I think there's so much here. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, I do I do think there's a big question of how does Vietnam follow the Korea path a little bit. >> It also like if we can define this brand as a nation and as a culture, it it also will even kind of spill over in a good way to the people here. >> Yeah. >> Because uh you're right. I think our friends back home in America, when

10:44 they think of Vietnam, they're like, oh, Hal and Steven. Let's say our mutual friends, right? Or even a wider network. And they can't really like define why we're here. >> Totally weird. >> They're just kind of like, oh yeah, these these these random guys doing their thing. You know, it's it's cool to follow their their story. I get a better idea what's going on. But like what is that that story that unifies >> Yeah. People that are here. >> And you're right. When I think of friends living in Korea, they're all involved in this like somehow like entertainment, culture of Korea. Like pretty much everyone I know there. And you've even say the same with like Japan in more recent years. >> Yeah. >> So it'll be interesting to see how that kind of works out. And you know, how do we get more dialogue going about >> The next point I want to talk about is

11:31 is kind of your business building principle. So, let's focus on Lumiere a little bit. Not a lot of people know what your company does. >> Yeah. >> You're right. It's it's a bit diversified, I think, on the outside if you're not actually interested in education as a customer or as a expert, it's hard to really understand. So, give me the quick elevator pitch about what you do. >> Yep. >> And then we'll kind of get into the nuts and bolts. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, so Lumiere, we essentially train the most ambitious high school and college students to succeed in their lives. So, we do a number of different things across that. Many of them are summer programs, either research programs or in-person summer camps, or programs that teach students how to use AI and machine learning. But the goal is for them to get into

12:18 their their next step. So, for example, last year we had nine of our alums get into Harvard as undergrads. So, that's for high school students getting into college is like their next step. For college students, it's maybe getting a job. We essentially do almost everything in that area except for like the actual application itself. There's lots of other companies that do that. We let them let them do that. To give you a sense of scale, maybe what's interesting for for for for listeners is just because we're so niche, like we're super niche company. We So, we're about over 100 people, as I mentioned. We've done a couple of acquisitions of other education companies. So, now we have a bit of a roll-up strategy when it comes to acquiring other education brands and bringing it underneath our umbrella. We're kind of low eight-digits revenue to give you a sense of scale. And we

13:05 we're really focused on building a one of the largest education companies on Earth. That's what we want to want to be. But our focus is on nerdy high school students. Looking for the nerds. We only work with the nerds. So, if you're not nerdy, if you're like an average student, actually we don't work with you. Usually, we only work with the best students. And so, that's And that's just our background. Like my co-founder and I, my co-founder did the roads, in classmate at Harvard, super smart. And I'm I'm a bit of a nerd, I love learning. And so that's the type of student that that that that we target, but that can be actually a pretty meaningful business. And one thing I would say is that one thing that Vietnam taught me in that process is we we haven't raised any money. So we're totally bootstrapped. And

13:50 if I looked at my friends, I'm sure your friends as well, back in the US, most of them live in New York or the Bay Area, almost all of them have raised a bunch of uh venture capital money. Yeah. And they're kind of And a lot of them are It's worked for them, but they've raised money and they've had to follow this very specific path of raising money, growing, raising. If you don't hit the next raise, you're you're done. You're dead. You fail. Whereas in Vietnam, it's just not the case. Like the biggest companies here don't raise that much money. Maybe they own a bank and finance themselves. They're different. So I think I got a lot of examples of people you know, like you or like our mutual friend Trang who had able to build sustainable businesses themselves. And of course, like

14:37 sometimes they raise money, sometimes they don't. But that sustainable business model, I think is something that's really compelling about Vietnamese businesses and that's what I've been trying to take into >> [music] >> Well, you know, it's not just Vietnamese, I think in Asia, the mindset is why raise money cuz people want to have want to have complete ownership. Totally. It's it's not about partnerships or stakeholders necessarily. I think it's about family. It's about more that community direction from a family kind of point of view. Yeah. But I I think you're you know, you're right. I think the biggest Vietnamese companies today, generally speaking, didn't need to raise any type of funding. I think that is changing slightly. You know, some are

15:22 going public. Some have raised money from FDI companies like, let's say, Vin Group even had SK Group from South Korea at one point as an investor and maybe still is among other companies. But, you look at the next gen, the ones that are like entrepreneurs of our age in their late 20s, early 30s, more or less. And there is a generation of founders, like you mentioned Giang from Ru 9, who's one who hasn't raised money. But, there is this growing community that have. So, like myself, and there's so many others that we can list out, right? And I think we have been somewhat influenced by the media about the narrative. You see all these like companies fundraising money in more developed markets, but those places also have liquidity. They

16:08 have support. They have community. Things like M&A and IPO-ing is is totally normal. I think when people did raise money, even today or even a few years ago, they weren't asking the question, "Okay, these look like investable companies. They look like good, you know, setups and business models and cool brands. But, like what's the path once you raise venture capital? Cuz Vietnam and Asia is not known for acquiring companies. It's not known for going public. So, what happens after that? And I I think Steven's story, and I want to talk more about that, too, is companies that just run sustainably. They can grow on their own. It doesn't sound very easy from the beginning and I don't think it was for you the first maybe couple years. I remember you weren't living in a particularly comfortable place either.

16:54 >> Yeah, this tiny all right, long time, smallest apartment ever, yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, that's a whole 'nother discussion but something to talk about and and that's probably it for another podcast on another day, but let's talk about Lumiere a little bit. You mentioned a really interesting word, niche. >> Niche, yeah. >> I think when you say niche in Vietnam, people think like you're never going to go anywhere cuz there's not enough customers. There's not enough of a market. Let's talk about that. Is that true in a place like Vietnam and and why is niche working for you and Lumiere? >> Well, I do think that the question to ask when you're starting a company is who are you serving? [snorts] And I know that's kind of a boring

17:39 question, but what I mean by that is Lumiere is a I'm Vietnam based we have team members in Vietnam. We also have team members in India, the US, China. We're pretty global. Actually, we serve a really global audience. So, we are really niche or we're also super global. So, we have a big group of students in the US and in India and China and in Vietnam and Korea. So, we are actually able to go really niche because our market is the whole world. I do think if you go just a pure play in Vietnam, you it's hard to go too niche. You can't go like maybe as niche as I'm going. I'm going like >> high school students >> high school research program for ambitious students applying to college next year. Like that's like >> in the US too, right? >> US. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, that's maybe like you know, maybe there's 500

18:26 students like that in Vietnam in total. Maybe I probably not. >> if they can even potentially >> afford for these types of totally. So, we're able to do it because we go global. We're like Vietnam to the world. I do think there are companies I think cetera is one where you touch a really pretty big topic, but you are also quite quite Would you say for you do you feel like but we would niche yeah. >> I I think we were niche 10 years ago and we are less niche now. I think that just goes with the development of the country. Like more young people, they want to they're more curious, they want to understand the world. So on and so forth. So, we've seen organic growth with that. Organic growth of Vietnam. Yeah. But people, you know, and people still say tell me to this day. They're like, oh how you're going to run out of podcast guests? Oh, but at the same that. Oh, yeah,

19:12 you're never going to get above a certain revenue and which is partially true. We've flatlined a little bit in recent >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> recent years. We've improved on certain metrics, but incrementally. >> Yeah. >> So, it does get me thinking like how do we find more growth in a sustainable way without just waiting cuz it's not like the the number of 18-year-olds in Vietnam is doubling every year cuz it's not. It's actually potentially going down. I think that the peak is is near. >> Yeah. >> And then people keep saying like the birth rates declining and that golden population peak is I think going to hit its peak in the next 5-10 years or something like that. So, So, yeah, hopefully that that answers that question. But, I I think going back to the niche from a global perspective, why has it worked for you? Would you say?

19:59 >> Well, I think why does the niche work for me? >> Well, I am the niche. Like I am like the I'm not a high school student, but I sometimes look like one, but like the I am that nerdy ambitious high school student who's trying to make something of himself. And so, I really understand what that kid is trying to do and also what that family is trying to do to help out and help out the kid. So, I think that helped. But, I do think a big unfair advantage that that I have and that I think some people could use more of is that because I grew up in and out of Asia, I'm based in Vietnam, used to live in China. >> Yeah. >> Used to live in India as well. I'm I really not that I'm Chinese or that I'm Vietnamese, but I understand the context. I also Americans I really understand the US context.

20:45 And there aren't that many people that are able to bridge multiple contexts at once. And so, if you look at education companies, there aren't a lot in our space that have operations globally or that hire globally as well. And so, that's a bit of an unfair advantage in that we can hire a really talented global team, but then we can also target markets that are really different like China is super different from the US, which is also quite different from India. But they all have some similarities that you you can translate across those contacts. >> I think other entrepreneurs that are listening today and business builders, and even people part of companies, the first probably thought they'd have is like, "How does Steven manage the multicultural aspect of his company?" You're making it sound really good, and

21:30 it does sound really good, but in reality, I think a lot of companies, small and big, really have challenges around like integration of cultures. So for instance, there's this book called The Culture Map. I forgot the author's name. She's a I think a psychologist from Harvard or something but she talks about how, let's say, some theme like I might be misremembering this, but like let's talk about punctuality. >> Yeah. >> So I think people in the West take that very seriously. Like if you say you're going to come at 3:00, you come at 2:55 p.m. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> But then sometimes in Asia, there's a bit more flexibility with that scheduling. >> For sure. >> You know, and how do you manage that? Because you have employees here, you have employees in the US, in India, now the UK. Do you find some people perhaps

22:16 struggling with that, or or is there something that bonds these people together? >> Well, yeah, yeah. So I think you do there's two things. I think one is you have to think about who you're hiring, and then second, you think about what are the context gaps between them. So I'll just give you two pieces there. So one, in terms of who we're hiring, we hire globally, right? So we hire people in we have big team in Bangalore, team in Shanghai, team in LA. But we look for people who are globally minded. So maybe they study abroad, yeah. Maybe they're Taylor Swift fans. See, it's like almost all my team are Swifties. >> Wow. >> I don't know how that happened. >> put it like a yes or no on that? >> It's actually in our JD. If you're you should you should like apply. >> Wow. >> A lot of people are Swifties on the team. Maybe even my co-founder. So So to be honest, it's a very global

23:03 team, but they all have a shared culture, which is that they actually consume a lot of the same pop culture. They're all native English speakers. They they maybe all most of them study abroad at one point or study at similar schools. So, even though they live in different places, they actually have a shared cultural understanding. >> Yeah. >> A lot of the time. >> That's great. >> But, the other piece is there there are gaps. Like, I would say that the biggest gap that we I experienced with my team is in their blind spots. So, our China team and our India team and our Vietnam team, China and Vietnam are are more similar culturally. India is quite different. And there's big gaps there in understanding. So, for example, if you're trying to hire a uh team member based in Vietnam,

23:49 you actually don't want someone who's based in India to evaluate that candidate >> Mhm. >> because they're going to be a little biased against that candidate. >> Wow. >> And the flip is also true. Like, an Indian candidate about an Indian candidate. For example, for us, we need to present really globally cuz our parents are sometimes from Iowa, sometimes they're from China. And an average So, let's say someone in Vietnam evaluates another Vietnamese person, they can understand who's who's strong, but they may not be able to evaluate how global is this person because they feel comfortable interacting with someone of their own culture. >> Using the same language. >> Using the same language, exactly. So, you actually need to have understand that gap. So, let's say an Indian might under evaluate the the the raw ability of a Vietnamese person, but would would more accurately evaluate their like English level, for example. Whereas, a

24:35 Vietnamese candidate would evaluate, say, the ability more accurately, but might think that they're more global and more comfortable than they are. And so, you just need to know how these gaps exist. >> Yeah. So, I'm going to role play a little bit. Every time I meet with Steven, he always asks me, "Oh, how are you? Do you know anyone that's looking for, you know, a new role?" You know, he By the way, Lumiere is constantly hiring, so if you're interested, we'll drop a link in the description below. You can apply. But, let's role play a little bit. So, most of our audience is Vietnamese, but funny enough also India. In recent months, we've had like 20 30% downloads from India. So, maybe India is listening today. >> Say I'm a Vietnamese talent who kind of generally fits the the profile and criteria that you're looking for. I apply to Lumiere. Walk me through how your team guides me through the recruitment process, keeping in mind

25:22 what you just shared, like the cultural differences, how to look for the the blind spots, how to look for the the what you're looking for. So, I'm based here in Ho Chi Minh. I've studied abroad for a couple years. I came back to Vietnam. I'm ready to work at Lumiere. >> We have a a pretty intense recruitment process. We have four rounds of interviews. At each round, we actually give feedback to the candidates as well. So, someone interviews and they do a bad job. We actually like, "Hey, here's the things that you did well. Here's the things that you didn't do well." So, we'll look to that feedback throughout the process. Starting round three, everyone has two people interviewing them at once. And then it's really important that we have people from different cultural backgrounds evaluating that person. And so, in the Vietnam context, Vietnam is a is

26:09 This is the thing about Vietnam, it's not big enough to be its own market for us. But, it is big enough to be have really talented people based in Vietnam, which we do. And so, that person needs to be a needs to be able to manage all of Asia. So, we'd have probably someone from Vietnam, maybe someone from India or from China, then evaluate this person as well. And we do a lot of like role plays. So, you and I, let's say you're the candidate. >> Okay. >> I might act as like a parent talk and you would act as yourself, playing the role of like a partnership manager or something. And we'd go through it. And at the end, I'd give you feedback and then we'd see how you adjust based on that feedback. But but let's say it was just two Vietnamese people evaluating you and you kind of come off as a little bit I think one common thing is Vietnamese kids can be a little bit more

26:55 a little bit more shy, let's say on average. A little bit less likely to ask questions. That might be okay in the Vietnam context cuz it's a little bit more hierarchical. But in let's say if you're talking to talent in Singapore, that may not be as compelling. So anyways, you just need you need people from different perspectives to then evaluate, to then say, "Hey, actually I think Hal would work well with a family in in Manila and a family in Ho Chi Minh City. >> I see. >> I see. So you almost like during the interview process also know, okay, partnerships manager, but since you're a global business, you can also start to think, "Oh, I think they'd be great to meet with families in APAC because >> Totally, yeah. >> the cultural you know, similarities can be leveraged and supported and and really get the

27:40 best out of both everyone, the customer, but also the employee. And then those interfacing with families in the US, you know, being a certain type of profile as well. We talked a lot about the cultural differences and >> Yeah. >> the unique features of every country at least at a high level. What would you say are the unwritten rules of doing business in Asia? So and Vietnam is in particular because everything you're sharing, by the way, is awesome. Thank you. And uh really insightful. But what what are some other like maybe quick fire tips you can offer having done you know, business in Asia for so long now? >> Yeah. So I think one is the biggest arbitrage is a good culture.

28:28 What I mean by that is in Vietnam, I think Vietnam has this too. In Vietnam most companies, not all, but most companies are not great environments from a cultural perspective to grow as a entry-level team member. So that means that the average really talented person doesn't have great options. But, if you build a culture that is really learning-oriented, fast-paced, global growing then that's a crazy arbitrage. And so, I think people one like hot take I would say is that a lot of like founders think about hey, how do I how do I adapt to this culture? How do I go more aligned with like let's say

29:14 Vietnamese culture. I actually think that's not the right choice. I think better is that you take the best parts of the culture that you bring. Let's say in the US context or if you're from let's say Washington, Europe, whatever it might be, and that environment of what is a high-performing company like that look like and bring that to Vietnam. That creates a really great arbitrage for you that's a higher great people cuz the best people want to work in an awesome culture. And actually, there's not that many options here. So, that's I think a big unwritten rule, which is that the best companies have a great culture. And then, you take that culture, you bring it to New York, it it doesn't mean anything. There's no arbitrage there because that's just the average the average company. >> What what would be the arbitrage? Let's say I'm a company in New York. >> Yeah. >> I'm following Stephen on LinkedIn and really cool posts and stuff like that. I

30:00 want to be a global business. I want to go to Asia. I want to go to India. I want to go to Vietnam. I want to hire that talent. What would your advice for them be? Especially someone that has like perhaps never even been to these countries. And actually, we have a mutual friend who was recently on the podcast that kind of fit that profile. His name is Matt Lockett. He had been to Asia before, but never actually like explored working here. Wouldn't have even like hopped in an interview with someone that wanted to work for his company. He has since then. >> Yeah. >> But, what what would And he had a good reason for it though cuz Vietnam was such a big market for his company Lockett. You can view the the podcast on this channel. What would your advice for them be? Or is it even worth doing for someone that's based in New York? >> I was recently talking to the founders of Lovepop, one of the founders. Lovepop

30:48 is like, by the way, if you if you don't know them, they're like this insanely cool successful pop-up card company based in Cambridge, based in Boston, which has like great designs. They actually first came here on a HBS trip, right? Both of the HBS they came here on a trip. And they now have a team I think about 300 people based out of Da Nang and some uh tech team also in Saigon. They're crushing it. They raised a bunch of money. They're doing a great job. I think what they did well, so let me follow their playbook, is these two white guys, they both were in both of the military. They're not like you know, I grew up in like big part of my life in Asia. They didn't have that experience. But they built a much bigger team than me in Asia. So I think what did they done? I think they did two things really well. First, actually they came to Vietnam a lot. So they came to

31:33 Da Nang a few times a year, so they understood the context. And second is they hired someone locally who was quite strong, who was then able to build the team underneath him. So I think it is difficult to build a global team if you've never been to a place because you lack a lot of context. You also lack, frankly, signaling value to the people there that you care about that place. I think it's just hard. Yeah. Like if you're like, "Oh, I'll hire you remotely." Then you start you start coming off as very transactional. Like I'm just going to hire cheap talent in Vietnam or wherever. I think that's not That's not how you get good good people. People want to feel like they're part of the main team, the main event. So I think you being there is important, but I think also you having a great leader. I think Locka has a really good team

32:18 actually because they were able to hire some really strong leadership leadership as well. So I think those are the two big pieces. I don't think there's many shortcuts. Like I just I don't like one thing I really don't like actually, even though I'm like I like hire global people, I think it's a lot of US-based founders I think come off as think of talent globally as being like virtual assistants. I'm going to hire some cheap talent to do like some menial labor. I think if that's your mindset, it's because you that's that's the talent you're going to get. You're going to get these like people who are, you know, filling in spreadsheets for you. But if you want to hire really good people, you got to be there. You got to treat them honestly, you have to just treat them the same way you treat your best talent in New York City. And that would mean you maybe have an office for them, maybe you're physically

33:03 there. You know about their family, you care about them, you want them to have a career progression. So I think those are the two big ones. >> No, that's a really good point point cuz a lot of people that reach out to me, let's say on LinkedIn, base somewhere else, and they're like >> [music] >> Oh, you know, what's your experience building a company in Vietnam? But then the questions also filtered down to be kind of like, what's it like outsourcing stuff here? And I'm like, you don't outsource that actually pretty much anything because you're right. I think the virtual assistant thing for instance right? Yes, perhaps the people here can make a little bit more money than doing the same job locally. And at the same time,

33:48 there's a reason why they leave also really quickly. I think the turnover rates for something like a virtual assistant is cuz there's no emotional connection, not even emotional, but like mission connection. It's a very it's freelance job essentially. And you know, sometimes I hear friends of mine even saying like because they've never been here, they don't even have like video calls with people. Like literally like no video, just like just over I'm just like that. I guess it works for some people, but then again, it depends on the kind of role that you're hiring for. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, if you're looking for talent, that's not maybe the approach. If you're looking literally just to outsource something, it's it's transactional. It's almost like a factory, right? You hire a factory to build something for you, and then but you can go to the next factory. And yes,

34:34 that's true with all talent, but at the same time, it's hard to build anything meaningful, build a platform with that, and can go further. >> So, like I think that the idea of outsourcing is is is so flawed. >> Mhm. >> Today. I mean, you could build a global company, and I think outsourcing treats people like they are not people. >> And it's it's that's the narrative that you didn't changing all about that, and the facts as well, because Vietnam is getting more expensive. >> Yeah, yeah, totally, totally not. >> We work with a lot of companies who basically have that model, but they don't like to even use that word, too, because they know that their teams are very important here. They Like one of our partners, they actually call their Saigon team, which is now 2,000 people, by the way,

35:19 as an innovation hub, cuz that's what they do. >> Yeah. >> And they I I went to their office. It's like better than any office you can find in North America. It's it's like not only exceptional, but you can tell the people they want to be there. >> Yeah. >> So. >> Yeah. I also think just one one good thing on talent is the strategy I think that works is I think the outsourcing virtual assistant strategy, I think that sucks. That doesn't work, in my mind. The strategy that works is you try to recruit the top 5% of talent. Now, in Vietnam, because there's a big diversity of talent, the top 5% on average is going to be more similar, let's say, to like the 60th percentile, let's say, in New York City. Just cuz New York City attracts global talent, so there's just a bigger pool of talent than in Saigon.

36:06 >> Just for I mean, yeah, that on average is true. >> But that top 5% talent in Saigon is really, really strong. And so, if you're able to recruit that group, but how do you recruit the top 5%? They need to be treated well. So, they need to have like, you know, good, you know, a good salary, good income, a good culture environment, and that's the group that then of that 5%, the top like 1 or 2%, which is hard to know who they're going to be at the beginning are going to be as good as the top one or two percent let's say again in New York. And that's a group that you then grow into leaders, they build a team, they hire people like them, and that's how you create a a company a company globally. >> Stephen, that that gets me thinking about like global teams a bit more because on paper it's easy to identify someone as {quote} global.

36:51 They can say on LinkedIn that they're bilingual. Oh, they went to school somewhere. Okay, instantly they're more global, something like that. But also one trend that I'd like to get your feedback on this cuz you meet a lot of Vietnamese people, a lot of people around Asia. I sometimes find people that didn't even study abroad to actually in a way be more global. Not more, but like just as global because the let's say English language is is so common in Vietnam. Like I meet so many young Gen Z and millennials and whatnot who can speak perfect English. And also they'll know trends from the US that I don't even know about because of social media or you know, whatever content they're consuming. What what are your what are your viewpoints on that? Have you hired anyone? I mean, your

37:37 company is a bit unique cuz you're about education globally. But at least not even hiring, but maybe have you met people in Vietnam and in Asia who on paper may not seem global, but actually are? And why do you think that's happening right now? >> Yeah, and we do hire that group by the way. And a lot like I think the difference between someone who had early exposure to let's say the English or like you know, say US pop culture etc. is way more valuable than someone that moved let's say to the US when they were like 20 or something because their your capacity to learn when you're older is just is just much less. Like someone who goes to the US for a master's program, that's a pretty common profile or the UK and comes back often not nearly as global as the kid that just loves learning English, went to all the cram schools.

38:23 You know, maybe it was like a junior high in in their local school, like their English specialized. And and also there's universities here like Fulbright University of Vietnam that are now quite global in how they teach that attract really talented students as well. So, I think it's a it's a mega trend. I think that's you're going to see more and more of that. But that I think also goes back to if you want to hire those people. Like I want to hire those people actually. Like I'm specifically focused on that group. Then you need to know the small market-specific signals of how do you know if someone is going to be like that. And so in Vietnam, for example, a way to know that is to know what specialized class were they in in high school and which high school were they in. Like that's a really high signal of a

39:10 lot of things in their life. But of course, if you don't live in Vietnam, you don't live in Saigon or Hanoi or whatever, you're not going to know that. And so I I think that totally is a trend. How do you capitalize on the trend? I think requires you to actually have pretty deep local context to understand where you're going to find that talent and where you, you know, not going to find that. >> The next thing I want to talk about is the format that your company works as, which is a virtual company. >> Yes, almost 100% in fact. >> 100%. >> I I've met some of your teammates both globally, but also in Vietnam. Sometimes, you know, you have coffee with them, you invite them to to house parties and stuff like that, which is great. But that's not at work. You're not working with them side by side every day. My company is the complete opposite. We allow work from home occasionally, but it's on a case-by-case

39:56 basis. The word working virtually to basically doesn't even exist in Vietnam, let alone my company. Why do you think that is a path forward for some companies and why has it worked for you? >> To be honest, working remotely is a double-edged sword and it attracts some people and it it repels some people. So, I have a lot of people who are really talented who I think would learn a lot at Lumiere who like me we know each other but choose not to work at Lumiere because we're remote. So, that's fine. That happens all the time. Like I think I I've had maybe 10 coffee chats in the past 2 months and I think about 2/3 of them they decided actually I

40:42 really want an in-person experience. That's great. Like that's great for them. The flip side is that remote has a really crazy advantage which is that while let's say you're recruiting in Ho Chi Minh City I'm recruiting in Ho Chi Minh City and in Bangalore and in Shanghai and in Manila and in Delhi and in Mumbai and in Hanoi. So, I have the capacity to hire the best people cuz remember I'm only looking for the top like few percent in each city to hire from. And there's not that many people even in a big city like Ho Chi Minh City who fit my criteria for who I want to hire. So, actually I need a global strategy. If I I couldn't hire my team just in Saigon to be honest. Like there's just not enough people who fit the profile I need just just in Saigon. So, you have

41:27 a big disadvantage which is that especially in a culture like Vietnam people like to be in person. They like to hang out. So, then we can't hire some people. We have this crazy advantage where you can hire people globally. And the type of person likes to work globally is someone who likes autonomy who likes to to to set their own goals, who likes to manage their own time. For that type of person we are and I'm actually like I'm that type of person. I don't like going to the office. I don't like, you know, having set times I have to do stuff. I don't want people telling me what to do. So, we attract a different type of person and that means we're going to lose some people but we're also going to get some really talented people globally who want to work with people across cultures, who want to set their own time and who like the idea of being part of something bigger than just where where they're at.

42:13 >> Stephen, your your company's only 100 people now, which is pretty big already by the way. Um >> Yeah, only with the >> You mentioned your your vision and mission is >> Yeah. >> is you know, to spring education globally for the most ambitious young people. And at the same time, you mentioned your company's aspirations could be one of the most important global education companies in the world. >> Yeah. >> Really awesome by the way. That reminds me of some of the headlines I'm reading online these days of the biggest tech companies, but even just companies in general, like even banks, like Jamie Dimon from Is it JP Morgan, I think? He was saying how he's totally against working from home. >> Yeah. >> He's requiring people to come in or they or say they quit. >> Yeah. >> Like, have you Do you see a future where

42:58 maybe let's say 200 people buy in the next couple years? Maybe because you're so distributed, I think that's understandable, but do you see a future where perhaps in your biggest cities like Bangalore or Ho Chi Minh that might set up offices for people to come together? Is Is that even a future that you would consider or is something like a whole remote league going to be the the way to go? >> I think you can consider it. We recently Risa acquired a company that has a uh in in-person office. So, they have an office. And they meet at the office like sometimes, like a couple times a month, I would say. I think that can work.

43:44 And in environments like Vietnam, you actually might want or even China, you might want to have an in-person office. Actually, let me just describe one really interesting thing that I've observed now running with like, you know, 10-plus team members in like seven countries. So, really big difference is how well did your country manage COVID? If you manage COVID well, you like in person. More so China, Vietnam, Singapore, Taiwan. These are places that are still in person because they didn't have that big of a period online. But if you manage COVID poorly, India, Philippines, the US, you got way more exposed. You had like a 2-3 year shock therapy to remote work. So in the

44:30 in India, the Philippines, the US, I don't think we'll ever have an office because it doesn't matter. Actually, people prefer to be virtual first. They're used to it. But in places like Vietnam, China, Singapore, we might have offices because the best talent there still have a preference for being being in person. >> That's really cool. It reminds me actually some 7-8 years ago we commissioned an article on Vietnam etc. where we had one of our editors explore the culture of convenience stores in Vietnam. So if you go to a convenience store, let's say in Japan, which is like the pioneer of it, the Family Marts of the world. You go in, you buy something, you leave. But there are like booths where you can sit down like by yourself and eat. >> Yeah. >> But the booths usually like because of COVID too, they they would have like shield protectors or separators.

45:16 >> Not really. Is this Japan? >> Yeah, Japan. I'm sure other Asian countries too. Sometimes they would have tables but they're tiny. >> Yeah. >> And and not really meant for more than one or two other people at most. So it's just like quick eating, you leave. Cuz also in Japan, you can't really eat on the street. It's not allowed basically. So okay, fine. But when you go to a Family Mart in Vietnam, totally different. Sometimes they have an entire space dedicated for like shared tables. And you know, Family Marts as you you can probably attest to, it's 24/7. So in Vietnam, you can come even at like 11:00 p.m. on a Friday and there's like a bunch of Gen Alpha, Gen Z just hanging out having a a cafe, you know, soda or whatever for 7,000 or whatever I don't

46:01 know what the cost is. And why that's so prevalent in in Vietnam, but also parts of Asia probably is because in Ho Chi Minh, let's say our office, for example, 50% of people are from the city. So, they live with family. >> Yeah. >> But, they can't meet up because they have curfews or um they can't even meet up at home because the dog is there and or a baby's crying at home or like a multi-generational family and there's no office. Your office is the kitchen table, but then there's someone making a meal right next to you. Whereas then the other 50% are people from Hanoi, from Hai Phong, from Da Nang and they move here and maybe they're young and they want to save a little bit of money. So, their

46:46 apartment's a bit modest. It's really, you know, they've got a bed, they've got a desk, maybe a little kitchen. But, it's not exactly a place you can work out of 24/7 either because air conditioning is very expensive. >> Yeah, it's really >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> like from my place, I I live alone. I spend maybe 600,000, 700,000 Vietnam dong a month on air conditioning. It's really just put at nights and on weekends. I basically I'm never there. But, imagine spending that kind of money if you're like a new junior making 8 million, 10 million a month. That's literally like 5 to 10% of your salary if you were using air conditioning all the time. So, they actually go to convenience stores where there's air conditioning. >> Yeah. >> Among other places. That's why coffee culture is so strong, too.

47:33 You can get a coffee for 30, 40,000 and enjoy a nice environment rather than doing it at home. >> Yeah, totally. >> So, the whole like going to the office, going out is such a common practice, though. >> I think so. Yeah, I think that's right. People's houses are less the center of their lives. And that's actually one thing I love about Saigon is that I think people are way more likely to go out into the world and do something. So, I think that's a good point. Like I think at some point to hire great talent in Vietnam at some scale, I think you probably do need some in-person presence. Only a few remote companies in Vietnam that I've seen have been have been >> Do you do you happen to know those company names? Or are their profiles at least? >> there's one friend of mine who runs a

48:18 remote-first developer agency. Harry, I don't know if you know. >> Oh, Harry Jung. >> Yeah. >> Okay, yeah, yeah. >> So, yeah, they're virtual-first. And so, they they're like maybe 100 people. They hire really good talent. And I think also that's partly because of like the engineering culture people like a little bit more like just isolated time. Locked in time. >> Dark rooms. >> There's no lights. So, I But but aren't there many? There aren't that many. But I do think by the way, I do think it's really connected to COVID though because it's it's not like people's houses in Manila are like massive, you know? >> True. >> But they they're just stuck in their house for a long time. >> And the COVID point. And I think the the legacy industries that exist in the Philippines is there too because they're English. >> For sure. >> Uh I think

49:04 more distributed than English. >> Outsourcing now. >> They they're used to these formats. >> For sure. >> Whereas Vietnam >> Well, we had a we have quote unquote outsourcing as well. But perhaps not as large as these other places. >> And most outsourcing in Vietnam is either the biggest form of outsourcing in Vietnam is manufacturing. And that's a very in-person thing. >> It's like daytime operations. Actually, like India and the Philippines is probably an entire culture of people at 3:00 in the morning taking phone calls with people in America. >> Oh, yeah. I just had a team member in Manila quit. And I was like and she'd been with us for 4 years. And I was like, "Oh, what are you going to do next?" I was like and she's awesome. And she's really excited. She's like, "Oh, I'm doing email marketing." And I was like, "Oh, what's the time zone?" She's like, "Oh, it's US time zone." So, she's going to be working from 9:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. And she's stoked about that. >> And she's that's just normal. That's

49:50 what she wanted. You know, I think that's the whole documentary I'd love to do. Like people that that their lives are built around this nighttime culture. I've seen some mini docs about that, but it's primarily about people like on the ground at Brighter Monday, like security guards, nurses on the night shift. Those are understandable. There's a the whole economy on that. But the economy of people that work remotely just to have different time zone support. Like what are their lives like? I think I I know a few people too, right? But it's not because they had to adjust to it. It's not normal. Like I I remember a lot of friends during COVID from the US they would go to Asia. Yeah. For instance, cuz they can go outside. And they would say like, oh yeah, I'm doing 9:00 to 4:00 a.m. or whatever. And after a year or two they're like, forget it. It's over. This sucks. But then there's people that have been doing it

50:36 for like potentially even a decade or longer. There must be people like that. So pretty pretty interesting. >> [music] >> Steven, I do want to talk about your your kind of mindset as well, but more importantly, in my opinion, your connection to Saigon Brew. This this company that drives you, gives you a different sense of purpose to your work every day. Would you say your kind of public persona as a a comedian has helped you to be a better CEO? >> No. >> No, not at all. Totally separate. Totally unrelated.

51:21 >> I mean, maybe. I don't know. Like maybe there's the slightest >> More comfortable with vulnerability or >> Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I mean, I think like you with comedy you think a little bit about Comedy's all about perspective taking, right? So like to say something funny, you need to know what the other person thinks, have their expectations, and then break it a little bit. So that's that's usually how you know, jokes are structured. But I will say I don't a lot of people I think try to fit everything their life into a narrative of like this is helping me get this goal. But I don't think that's true. Like if I was telling you oh yeah I did stand-up comedy is helping me grow my education company. Not really. I just do it cuz it's it's fun, you know? Like I don't and

52:07 I don't need it to help out with my my company. Because to me it's a totally different and and really actually really important skill set. Does it help me be a better person? Maybe. But I don't think it helps me out as a >> What what has it meant for you as someone living here in Vietnam to to have this this role at Saigon Theaters in this kind of I was going to say like occupation or something but like >> is, yeah. >> Like what would your life be like if you didn't do this whole comedy stuff? >> It so for me it is it has changed my life. So I I love Vietnam. Vietnam's my home. My company is so global. So I always felt like there was a gap there. And I wanted to find something that would connect me to Vietnam directly. And stand-up comedy with Saigon Theaters

52:53 which is in Vietnamese, it forces me in the Vietnam context. And I'm way more known here as a stand-up comedian than as a dude doing a startup. Like I was just in Da Lat this weekend. I think I got stopped 20 times, literally 20 times. >> Just from on the street? >> Just random people. >> That's amazing. >> like seven, eight times a day. >> Wow. >> Where people are like oh you're like that Saigon Theaters guy. Oh you do stand-up comedy or like there's a little kid who was like oh my god Steven Bull. So cute. So cute. No one was like oh you do a education so no one knows that. No one knows anything about that. So for me it made me feel I mean that doesn't have what I'm doing it actually. I just really love stand-up comedy. People are are Think about this. They enjoy comedy. >> to society. I mean it can sound very

53:38 like high brow but like no it actually is because people have humor in their day. They and they somehow appreciate that hey there's this foreigner who lives here who's actually, you know, offering entertainment is one. But like value everyday life I just, you know, it's cool to see that. Right? >> Yeah, I think >> You know, I've been here for 10 years and I'm a bit reminiscent of my own days when I was first here nobody knew who I was. I started building the story. Now everyone knows you etc. And I feel like it is hard for me to separate a little bit. Like my work and life is all is is so intertwined that gets a little complicated. Whereas you living here in Vietnam, I think it's just so awesome that you're doing something fun for people. But then nobody actually knows what you do for a living.

54:24 >> idea. I love that. >> People probably think you're just here to be a comedian and that's your >> I think most people think I'm a full-time comedian. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. We're like, man this poor guy. >> Yeah. He is so poor. >> He's a master closet. How to make a living as a a stand-up comedian. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. What has been one kind of mistake you've made as a founder? And what are you doing about it today? >> Yeah, so the mistake I keep making is to go after shiny new things instead of just investing in the thing that's already working. I make the mistake constant I'm probably still making the mistake right now. About 2 years ago I started another company called Leverage. It was a virtual assistant company so she's helping people hire global talent

55:09 mainly for US startups. Totally unrelated to my education company. In fact, I told people and I could just see in their face them being like, "Dude, what are you doing?" Like I don't know where I don't know where but I was like I told them it makes sense. We have this global company, you know, I know I'm good at hiring people globally. And it kind of worked we but it didn't work that well and it was a huge distraction. And so the for me the lesson I'm constantly trying to re-teach myself is just hey focus on things that are working, and just push those things forward. So, for me it's education, nerdy high school students who have really big ambition in life. Don't go outside that. Like, that's my lane. Stick in my lane. Don't think I'm like some legend because I got one thing

55:56 right. I was like, oh, I'm so good at starting companies. I started all these companies, so successful. Started this virtual assistant company. Turns out, actually, it's really hard to run multiple companies at once. So, it failed. I ended up selling it. So, that's going to be the biggest lesson, just stay focused on what what you're doing. >> Okay. Very good. Steven, we have you here today to share about building a company, Lumiere, doing business in Vietnam and Asia, and a little bit about your own personal hobbies. What's one thing that you want to learn more about, so that we can have a guest on this program, and you can learn from them? >> One thing that I do want to understand more and deeply is when people are building companies in Vietnam,

56:42 I'm really curious how they There's a few brands. I mean, just to give you some There's a few brands I think about. The two brands I think about are Every Half and Pizza 4 Peace, where they have been able to scale, but maintain this really high bar of quality. And I'm so curious how they do that. I think about actually those brands all the time, cuz I really struggle with it. So, to me, I would love to learn. There's a few service brands in Vietnam where I'm like, you guys are so good at hitting this level of quality. So, that's something I would love to explore more. >> Yeah. That's That's a good one. And Pizza 4 Peace in particular, I feel like you you if you were to review on paper their backgrounds and what they do, they they've never done anything food-related. >> Yeah. >> They're Japanese in a foreign country, and they don't speak the language.

57:29 >> And then now they're in India, which is basically like 2.0 of or not a 2.0 but more of a like a redo of what they did in Vietnam. So, pretty amazing stuff and yeah, we'll keep that in mind. I think that's a lot of people are curious about these, you know, brand Vietnam initiatives that are pioneering but on paper are also very challenging businesses to run. How did they do it? What worked? What didn't? Really good stuff. Thanks Steven Vu for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. You know, again, a lot of these things are mostly known to me already. Some new learnings for me personally, but I think, you know, the purpose of this podcast is to share all these rich stories and learnings that we know to our audience today. So, thanks

58:15 again Steven. If you're looking for a new opportunity, if you would just want to collaborate or reach out to Steven,

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