Is TRT Right for You | The Real Conversation Nobody Is Having About Hormone Therapy | Mind Pump 2969

0:01 All right, we're going to talk about testosterone replacement therapy. Who's it for? Who is it not for? And what are the best ways to use it? We're going to get into this right now. Let's go. Remember how when this used to be so controversial? >> Yeah. So, okay. So, this is a big thing now, right? Uh testosterone replacement therapy has now become mainstream. uh for a long time it was a taboo subject because testosterone uh is also a performance-enhancing drug and is a because of this it's a controlled substance for a long time getting uh testosterone from your doctor if you were hypogonatal meaning you just didn't produce a lot of testosterone was actually quite difficult um and if your

0:47 testosterone was within range even if it was in the low low end of range and you had all these symptoms of low testosterone. Uh it was very difficult to get. Well, that's changed. It's actually changed quite a bit now. Now, testosterone replacement therapy is extremely uh accessible. Uh in many cases, very inexpensive and the taboo around it um has there's still a bit of taboo, but it's not nearly like it was uh definitely not like it was 15 or 20 years ago. Um, so this is a good subject because I I don't know about you, Adam, but I'm getting more questions from family members and friends around this topic than I ever did in my entire training career. >> Yeah, I think that's like we said, I think it's um it's not as taboo. Uh it

1:34 there's far more people more open. There's hormone clinics popping up everywhere every day. Um, I was going to ask you if you think that we're going to see a change in the education system for like your general practitioner because of it. So, what you still do see, and I do still get this because I'll have um friends of mine that are mid mid to late 40s um they're describing to me all all the signs of like low testosterone. And I'll advise them like, you know, go see your doctor, go get your blood work, find out where your testosterone is, and then um more than likely get yourself uh you know, on HRT >> if that's the case, right? >> Yeah. Mid to late 40s, uh kids,

2:21 stressful job this this day and age, >> plausible, >> very plausible, most likely not optimal for sure. >> Um and then very high chances of it being pretty low. And I've had I still have some of their the some of them come back uh because I've had this with multiple friends that that have suggested this where the general practitioner will be like, "Oh, we're okay." >> Yeah. >> Um because they're say like 300 or 350 and they're not in a range that is like uh of danger of something like really happening. >> Yeah. But the problem with that and and if you go see a hormone specialist, right, somebody who specializes in hormone therapy, uh, and a doctor that that works with a a hormone, uh, clinic,

3:07 they'll tell you that, you know, that person, if most of their life, young life, uh, said averaged around 900 and now they're 300 or 350, that's less than half of what they're used to. and absolutely can result in these common symptoms of you know poor sleep uh lack of motivation >> low libido >> low libido yeah hard to build muscle lose muscle they lose muscle all these uh potential side effects you can absolutely see all those things and so therefore are a uh a great client for uh hormone replacement therapy >> yeah and potentially because uh it's starting to actually swing in the other direction where it's going a little too far in the other ction. Um, so when you

3:54 speak to experts on the subject, we have, and by the way, we have good data, decent data on the benefits slash risks uh of being on testosterone uh or being on testosterone replacement therapy. We actually have pretty good data. Um, but it is starting to swing in the other direction where um going on testosterone becomes a cure all, which it's not. And so we need to talk about that a little bit. Also, by the way, this is all getting clouded by the fact that since the 1950s, okay, since we've measured since we've been measuring testosterone levels in men, there has been a consistent general decline in testosterone in men. There's also been a general decline in fertility

4:40 in men. So a, you know, the average 30-year-old today has less testosterone than the average 65year-old did in, let's say, 1970, uh, for example. It might not be exact on the numbers, but it's something like that. And you can look this up. This is well documented. >> Um, and without getting into the weeds, >> uh, they're not quite sure what's going on. >> Could be a the difference, uh, you know, between lack of activity, diet, obesity now is a bigger plays a bigger role, right? Obesity exploded in modern societies. uh right around uh the 70s and just continue to climb up until uh recently could be exposure to new chemicals that might have um hormone like activity in the body especially in combinations >> xenoestrogens that yeah we're just not

5:26 sure we just don't know what's going on >> I mean most likely wouldn't you say it's a combination of all of that >> could be right um so we are seeing this is just just general decline um and so that's kind of clouding uh the whole thing um But also, it's not a miracle cure all. Uh because a lot of the symptoms you get from low testosterone are also symptoms you can get from poor diet, poor sleep, um too much stress uh in your life, just essentially not taking care of yourself, right? So, hey, I got low motivation and low energy. Hey, my libido is low. I have low drive. Um I'm not as strong as I used to be. Like, could that be a result of low testosterone? Yes. Uh those are all classic symptoms of low testosterone.

6:12 Could they also be symptoms of the fact that you are not getting good sleep, you're not exercising, um you're eating like crap? Yeah, 100%. Absolutely 100%. So, so it gets a bit murky. Get your own customized MAPS workout program. That's right. We will design for you a workout program for your body. And it's a three-month program. Go to mymapsprogram.com. Fill out the questionnaire. One of my trainers will call you, deliver to you an individualized workout program. It's mymaps program.com. Here comes the show. All right, real quick. If you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mypumpstore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to mypumpstore.com. That's it.

6:58 Enjoy the rest of the show. I think where we should start is the data that shows whether or not testosterone replacement therapy improves uh or takes away from longevity. So the ri the the the fear used to be that if you went on testosterone you would have an increase in cardiovascular events. Well, we now know that's not true. We look at the data on replacement therapy and it does not increase the risk of cardiac cardiovascular events. It also doesn't decrease them. Seems to be somewhat neutral. Okay. So, it seems to be somewhat neutral. But we got to look at who's in the study. And the study is

7:44 looking at hypogonatal men, men outside of the range of testosterone. And depending on the lab, uh, it's typically the low end is around, uh, 250 or 300 in total testosterone. The upper end is between 850 to 950 or something like that. Okay. So, that's the range, which by the way, it's a whole another subject. It's a huge range. Like, you're telling me that could be between 300 and triple and that's considered normal. Um so but but nonetheless the study looked at men whose range was below what is considered the range and then who were brought up to around 600. So they weren't even brought up to 900 or what happens many times in hormone uh therapy clinics is they'll let you go above 900

8:31 so long as the drop falls within range when it's time to do your next your next uh dose of testosterone. So uh just a little bit of uh you know kind of medical um information around how testosterone tends to be administered. There's a few ways it can be administered. One of them is a cream. Um it's pretty common. Another one is injection which is also very common. And the an injectable when you inject testosterone it's typically attached to what's known as a long acting esester which releases the testosterone over time. But what happens when you do an injection of testosterone is you get a peak at about 24 hours and then it slowly drops until your next injection. And so what a lot of clinics will do is they'll allow the peak to be above range so long as the

9:18 the drop is well within range. Um and so >> which by the way just to not to interrupt you on your this because I think it's important that people people that are considering going this direction know this is there's also a range of how people respond to that. That's right. >> So for for example I I went through this in my early journey of hormone therapy when they were trying to figure out the right dose for me and uh what they what they found was I I actually respond really well. So like a a moderate to low dose I shoot up pretty good. >> Mhm. >> But I also crash pretty fast. And so what we were finding was at you know and they slowly worked my way up. So they started me I think it was the the original like 100 milligrams a week and then it went 110 120. They basically 10

10:04 milligrams at a time went up on me >> all the way up to 200 millig. Now 200 milligrams would shoot me to like 1300 level. So above the normal range, but then by day seven I would come all the way back down to 400. Right. >> And so I had this really and and that that was abnormal roller coaster. Yeah. To the average person, which is why today my dosing looks like half the dose done twice a week. >> So I have one way to do it. >> Yeah. Less of and less of a spike. Now others are different. Other people can take their >> So you don't go out of range and you don't go too low. Yes. >> Is what it looks like. Yeah. Yeah. No. So that's some of the techniques that they'll use when administering. Nonetheless, when we're looking at longevity, and by the way, we'll get into this uh because it's also more nuanced and complex than

10:49 what I'm about to say, but when we look at the literature and the data, if your testosterone is below normal and you go on replacement therapy to bring you up to an average of 600 or so, it's there's no risk of cardiovascular events. There's just an increase in quality of life. This what you see. So the in this big study in these big studies men feel better they're their libido is up the better mood's less depressed less anxious uh etc etc now I always make this argument with quality of life if you have more energy you're in a better mood higher libido more drive you're probably more likely to do things like work out right you're probably less likely to

11:36 to medicate, self-medicate with food, right? This is what we tend to see. And and by the way, I don't just see this with testosterone replacement therapy. I see this with other medications when I would train clients. Like I've trained clients that were really depressed and when they went on anti-depressant type medications, they be became more consistent with their workouts because the medication got them out of the depression enough so that they had enough of a motivation to come to the gym. And so I saw this kind of like, oh, this is helping you do the thing that is really going to help you the most, which is exercise, right? Um, so and so I could see why that would be the case. Same thing with GLPs. People using GLPs lose weight. A lot of people in the fitness space were like, uh-oh, nobody's want to work out or hire a trainer. The

12:22 opposite is actually turning out to be true. People on GLP uh medications are more likely to spend money on fitness, which means they're more likely to work out, more likely to be involved in fitness because the GLP is giving them a little bit of motivation motivation because they're kind of losing weight. So, it's a little bit more nuanced and and cloudy than just, you know, the specifics of what we're talking about. So, uh so that there's that. Okay. Here's who testosterone replacement therapy is not for. Um, and this was a conversation I had with a friend of mine earlier. So, earlier today I was texting with with a buddy of mine. Um, and um, you know, he's he he was he was commenting on how I've been looking lately or whatever and he's like, "It's got to be, you know, the testosterone and stuff that you're on." I'm like,

13:08 "Dude, getting lean is like mostly diet." Like, that's a fact. By the way, everybody knows this. Even bodybuilders who take crazy amounts of steroids know this. like you could take all kinds of testosterone, you'll just get bigger and more bloated. Yeah. But you're not going to get lean. The diet is the lean part. And that's what he was commenting on was uh on my leanness. >> And I said, you know, if you knowing him, knowing his diet, knowing his lack of activity, eats like garbage, doesn't work out. But I'm like, bro, if you went on testosterone right now, you would just gain 12 pounds of water, bloat, and inflammation, >> and it would actually make your health worse >> because you eat like garbage and you don't exercise. >> Yeah. So testosterone replacement therapy and and by the way the best clinics, the best hormone replacement therapy experts, people who really

13:54 specialize in this field, they make their patients sign a form saying, "I agree to exercise and watch my diet, and if I don't, you can kick me out of the program." >> Well, and they'll know because I mean, they'll see it. just like ours, like every 3 months we have these check-ins with our blood work. And so if you're if you're eating like crap and just taking testosterone, like that you're >> you're just gaining a little bit of weight. >> Yeah. You you'll see you'll see negative markers, right? So you'll see you'll see an impact negatively and then they'll 100% comment and reduce or take away from you if you're doing that versus if you are on the appropriate dose and you are making lifestyle changes, i.e. diet and exercise, >> uh, you'll see also radical but positive

14:39 changes in the blood work. >> Yeah. Otherwise, it's like Dr. Tina said this really well, it's like you're throwing gasoline on a dumpster fire. If you throw hormones at someone who's unhealthy, unfit, inflamed, and just doesn't want to change any of their lifestyle, adding hormones to that, hormones can be uh, great. They can be drivers of aesthetic changes, drivers of uh helping your body adapt better to stress uh like exercise. They can help with things like fat loss. They can help with cognitive function. But they can also drive a lot of other things like uh you know growth hormone which they would call let's say a youth hormone in a procer pro-inflammatory state can just give you higher risk of cancer.

15:24 testosterone with a guy who's drinking beer and eating donuts and not working out, you just increase your risk of heart disease and cardiovascular events. >> Well, not to mention that that same person, since we're talking about people who this is not for, that same person that may have gotten blood work and shown that they have lower testosterone levels would see a positive swing in testosterone levels simply by lifestyle. I mean, we've we've had we've had callers like this before. This is where I think another example of who this is not for is somebody who gets their blood work, their testosterone's low, but they also get four nights of or four hours of sleep a night. >> Yeah. >> Overtrained and underfed >> and they and they and they don't eat good. And it's just like there's a lot of opportunity for us to improve that naturally uh first. And if you don't,

16:11 the dangerous part of that is it mass those natural signals. So you have to talk about how and why that's also important. It's like so because maybe that guy does go and get on testo without, you know, taking heed to this advice. He goes, it's like, "Oh, my levels are this low. Who cares? I'm getting four hours of sleep. I need testosterone therapy." He gets it. Feels much better. >> He's got a little bit more energy. >> Yeah. So he feels much better because now he's taking a synthetic hormone. But the problem is he's still neglecting his sleep, which is so detrimental to his health. That's right. And so a lot of times we've seen these examples of people that are doing taking uh TRT but it's masking other issues that they could have naturally fixed. And so always the recommendation is totally >> try and address that first. >> So I had this conversation uh with a family member of mine about it was

16:58 probably about nine maybe maybe a year ago we got this conversation because he uh he it works out. So he does Brazilian jiu-jitsu. who is a black belt and he trains on average two to three days a week of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and then he'll lift weights maybe one day a week depending on how much uh jiu-jitsu he's doing. He also has a you know he's a very successful guy but it's a somewhat stressful uh job. He's a financial adviser and so you know you work in that space there's a level of stress you're dealing with when you're managing people's you know uh retirements and their fortunes or whatever right. So he's also a father. He's got kids, the whole deal, right? Great guy. Very close to him. Uh great integrity, great guy. And he's always very cautious when adding any kind of uh medical intervention. He's he's

17:44 extremely cautious. And so we had this conversation about 10 months ago. So he went and got blood work done and his number came back. His his total testosterone was below 400. So it wasn't out of range. Yeah. Which would have been under 300. Yeah. But he was like, you know, like I think it was like 390 or 400 or something like that. And he's like, "Ah," he's like, "That's not out of range." He goes, "But that's kind of low." And I'm definitely noticing. He's my age. He's 47. He's like, "I'm definitely noticing that I just I can't do jiu-jitsu like I I used to kind of lower energy." And he's like, like, "What do you think about this?" And so him and I talked about this a little bit. And so he said, "Let me see if I can raise it uh naturally." Again, he's a very conscious guy about this kind of stuff. And so we did. He did a few

18:30 things, changed his diet, changed a few things, and his testosterone essentially went to 4. It barely changed. It went to 450. And so he's like, "Ah, man. All right." He's like, "Um, let me try inclin first." So inclane is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. So this is a a a drug that you take. It blocks the estrogen receptor and it sends a signal to the body that says, "You need more estrogen." I'm and trust me this makes sense in the male body because a man makes estrogen from testosterone. So what it does actually spikes your testosterone and he just wanted to see how he'd feel on this. It wasn't that inclin was his long-term uh solution, but he's like, I just want to see what it feels like to have higher testosterone. It shot his testosterone up to like 800. He's like, dude, I feel

19:17 so much better. I feel so much energy. He's like, I could go to jiu-jitsu. I feel like I'm recovering. Uh he's like, I feel kind of more motivated. And he's like, "God," and he was like, "I don't know, though, man. Should I do this?" And I told him, I said, "Look," I said, "Bro," I said, "you work out. You work out all the time. You're always consistent. You do jiu-jitsu. You lift weights. You watch your diet." Cuz he does. He doesn't eat garbage. >> No. >> I said, "You're not going to waste uh going on testosterone replacement therapy. Here's what's going to happen by you going on testosterone replacement therapy. It's just going to improve your quality of life. The things you like doing, you'll be able to do more of. You're probably going to work out a little harder as a result. You're going to feel more recovered. You'll have more energy and more drive. You're the guy that I would say is it's, you know, it's

20:05 probably good. It's a good thing for you. Not that you were low that you were so low you need to go on it, but rather uh it's just going to improve your quality of life is what's going to happen. And you're and you're not a lazy dude. You work out. So, he did. He went on replacement therapy. And he's very conservative. He's like super conservative. In fact, I'm always telling him like, "Try getting more. See what happens." But he stays real conservative with it. And he's like, "This is He's like, "This is great." He's like, "I go to jiu-jitsu. I feel good. My body doesn't hurt all the time. I have more energy. I'm able to work out a little more." Um, he's actually more motivated with diet. >> Yeah. >> Than he was before because he's, you know, because of the way it feels to work out and stuff. So, that's an example of somebody that I would say, uh, is for it. Um, and then I had my

20:50 other buddy who's does nothing and eat garbage, uh, and he's really overweight. And he's like, "Hey, maybe what do you think would happen if I went on?" I'm like, "Your health would get worse. You would gain probably 12 pounds on the scale. Uh, a lot of it being bloat. I know you you're not going to change your diet. You're not working out. Unless you think it's going to be the motivation you need to do those things, waste your time. Your testosterone's in the 450s. You're fine. Don't do it. it's not gonna improve your quality of life and it actually might decrease your longevity. So don't play for play with it. >> So I have a a great story since you went this direction today. Um my best friend so who is a year older than me. Um so he's 46 and he I've been I've been telling him the same stuff forever and he's got a a very stressful job. Uh

21:37 doesn't get the most sleep. Uh his his wife is a nurse who works double the time. He takes care of both kids a lot of times getting them to all their soccer games, waking them up, getting them ready for school. Like he's like super dad and works and does all this stuff and I've been telling him for and he and he's been really he hasn't lifted since we we live together and stuff and I've been telling him like and he he stays in in relatively good shape for a guy our age who doesn't lift weights and doesn't really have a strong diet. So he's he's he keep because he's so damn active. >> Um >> he watch his diet sounds like. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he's not he doesn't like over overeat. He also doesn't like try and eat really clean right now either, but he also is not like a like he's not the guy to binge, right? >> And that's kept him in in moderately healthy. You know, he's not by any

22:22 means, I would say, super fit. And he wouldn't say that about himself. >> So, I've been I've been harping him for the longest time. And he'd always push back to me be like, "I feel fine." I I said, "Well, just go get your blood work. You haven't done that in forever. And just go get it tested. Go see." And he came back in those numbers 350 to 400. I can't remember. It was right around that. >> So he's low but not out of >> Yeah. Yeah. And of course his GP tells him he's fine. So and and so I continued to harp on him. I'm like just, you know, consider doing this. And I even offered to take care of it for him and stuff like that. And anyways, he had turned me down so many times. Well, I hadn't seen him in like a month and a half or whatever. He shows up to my house. This was just like two weeks ago. And he walks in and he looks good. I can see his skin, his face. Said, "Bro, you look really good." He goes, "Oh man, I've been I've been working out." out. He's like, "I've been I've been back on, you know, uh his wife and him back on their

23:10 kick and they're and they're doing their thing." And I said, "Man, you're you look like you're five five years younger. I can just see it in your face." He goes, "Really?" And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever whatever you're doing, I can tell." And he go, "Well, um I started the testosterone like a month ago." He I go, "Oh, how do you feel?" And he's like, "Well, I don't really I don't really notice anything, right?" And I'm like, "Really?" And he's like, "Yeah, I mean," he goes, "I feel good. Um, but I never I never felt bad is what he says to me. I' I I've never felt like I had all these bells going off that I I was way out of whack or off or anything like that. But um, no, I just I feel good. I mean, I'm consistent with my workouts. I'm doing I said, you know, it's funny is we don't realize how much um how amazing our bodies are at adapting. >> Yeah. >> And so, you don't even realize that when

23:58 you weren't feeling good that you weren't feeling good because that happened over 20 years. 20 years of your life becoming more stressful and more on your plate. >> Slowly boiling the frog in the pot. >> Yeah. And so you you don't but yet you're telling me right now you've been super consistent with your lifting. It's also motivated you to eat better. I can see it in your skins. You want you I didn't know he was doing any of that. And so I could see it on you. You obviously and this is only a month in. I'm like you're obviously feeling and doing so much better. But you don't realize it because of how much you had just adapted to what quote unquote normal fellowship. I said, and that's I said, this is what a true HRT should feel like. It should not feel like and like this cra like like the steroid monster and you shouldn't feel like

24:43 that. Like it you should feel good like you're describing. And it it's not this crazy over the top. >> And he's working out and stuff too. >> Oh yeah, that's so great. >> Yeah. No, he's he's doing great. And I but but it's funny because he doesn't even know. He he he can't even point it to the testosterone replacement. Like he just >> How long has he been on it? >> A month. >> Oh yeah. Give him give him two three more months. He's like, "Dude, this is I feel way >> I said too." I said, "It just keeps getting it'll just keep getting better because you're going to build more muscle. You continue to get stronger and and that consistency of the diet." I said, "But I think you just don't even realize uh how much you weren't feeling great because you I said and I gave him an example. I'm all, "Bro, I bet if you asked your dad how he feels, he would say he feels fine." You and I both know your dad ain't fine, right? He's a mess,

25:29 right? He's a walking mess. But because he's allowed that to happen over 65 years of his life, he thinks he's quote unquote fine. See, that's that's so that's an example of how this there's a lot of nuance in here because for some people getting your hormones uh quote unquote fixed could be the impetus to get you to start exercising, to start watching your D, especially if it's low, like if you're at a range. Here's the thing, by the way, if your hormone levels are below range. >> Oh, yeah. >> There are health risk factors with that. >> Yeah. That's so so you know if the labs range is let's say 250 and it comes back at 70. I've seen that before. Uh you actually have health risks associated uh

26:16 with that with that and you need to get on testosterone no matter what and they'll get you up to a low normal type of deal. But sometimes it's just that motivation that people need. But again, you know, going on hormones and changing nothing about your lifestyle uh is actually not a good idea. you're just adding fuel to an inflammatory state. Um, and that's probably worse for you uh, than what you're currently doing. >> I'll give you another one that I think is important to talk about that is a bit taboo or people don't want to talk about, but in my experience of being a trainer and having the opportunity to talk to so many clients and I've seen this before and after and I know you will have too, but it's just like we don't talk about it. But a lot of couples at our age um their sex life

27:02 after a a kid or two is just it went from a thing that they all talked about their honeymoon stage where they have sex every single day >> and now it's a once a month thing or once every other week. I can't tell you how many clients and friends that I have >> that I've watched that happen to and then how much uh HRT has radically changed that. And so forget the aesthetics, the health and think about just the health of a of a marriage in a relationship. >> How much I've seen that radically change. >> Yeah. Which by the way could go you could go the other direction too. Like uh you could have a husband and wife who aren't really aligned with their libido. Let's say he's a little higher than hers, but they're kind of okay with it. And then he goes on testosterone and she doesn't do hormone therapy. Yeah. Can

27:48 cause problems. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. So, so it's it's an important thing to discuss with your partner because if your if if your testosterone is low and you bring it up, you will especially in the first few months have a dramatic increase in libido. >> Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I think that's a good point. Um the perspective I think because I'm thinking of a couple people in specifically in mine where uh the men had very high stress jobs and and poor diets. They didn't train consistently, had all those things. And because of that, they had low to no drive. And because of that, their partner suffered. And I feel like this uh this happens more in the dark because it's less common that uh men are that way. And I feel like women are are better at kind

28:35 of taking that and handling that. Dudes are a mess when they they if they're there, they they they want sex, they can't have sex. It's it's a it's a big thing. They where I feel like a lot of women just kind of take it on the chin. And I have at least a lot of my female clients, they would have they would have marriages like this and they can do it almost seems like they can just okay, >> it's okay, we can wait two weeks or 3 weeks, but deep down inside it's not what they want and and it's affecting their marriage. >> And so I've had a lot of cases like that where men um their their libidos were just trash because their testosterone level. >> Speaking of which, you know, when Viagra first hit the market, there was a spike in divorce rates in older couples. we which which typically you don't see divorce in couples who've been married for 35 years 40 years and then they saw this spike and they equated it to Viagra

29:20 because the the husband suddenly can function and wife's like excuse me we haven't been doing this for a while and I'm okay with that and he was demanding and it was this like thing that you would read about how funny is that isn't that interesting so make sure you're on the same page >> so all right so here's we have a place that you can go to >> for this that's responsible also works with peptides by the way. So peptides are, you know, you probably heard about peptides. GLPs are peptides. There's lots of peptides. And and if you go to mpormones.com, this is what they'll do. They'll set you up with a lab, a 45minute medical consult plus you'll get your first month of testosterone or inclenine or vitamin B12. Uh, and it's going to be 249 bucks. That covers all of that. So if this is

30:08 something you're interested in, these are medical professionals. This is not you're you're not going gray market. You're not doing weird research with labs too. >> Everything. >> Oh, wow. >> $249 for the first month. >> Oh, wow. >> And then you're all set. >> Oh, that's really cool. >> Yeah. Which is really cool. So, anyway, I wanted to I want to talk to you, Adam, about uh something which I I just did this morning. So, >> uh I I love >> I love the fact that we have a big staff now. I really do. For a long time, for most of M Pump history, we had like a small staff. For a lot of it was just us. So, just meaff, Justin, and Doug. Yeah, Doug did >> everything and Katrina, but she was always not here. So, it was like the four of us and her silently at home. >> And then we brought on some editors. It was still small staff. Uh, but now we have like all these trainers and we have a leadership team and it's just growing

30:54 like crazy. What's last count? What are we at? 30 trainers now. >> Yeah. 30. Well, it's going to be 32. We're at 47 employees. >> Yeah. So, it's cool. It's really cool because uh like you, Adam, you talk about leadership and leading team. It's just I I enjoy it. It's fun. >> Yeah. Um, it's super great to be around people um that are like-minded and uh I just enjoy I really enjoy it. Um so much more than it was just when it was just us. It was fun, but it's even more fun now. Anyway, we have and this is I love learning about stuff like this like where our employees will do things on their own together that's helping them grow into better people. >> Yeah. >> I just think that's so cool. Uh I think it's cool cuz it's like it's like team building. Uh I like to see if they have relationships with each other outside of

31:40 work. >> It's also a great sal example of um and I think every leader founder of a company is uh thriving is to create a culture and it's another example of a a definition of a good culture uh ex or or what you would call your leadership shadow exists when you're not around and you don't know in the shadows. It's like uh are does that does that culture permeate even areas where you're unaware of and stuff like that? And if if if you have a good one stuff like you're alluding to right now that you're not even like, "Oh my god, I had no idea." >> It's not like you didn't tell you to do this part of your job. >> It's it's another thing to be like instructed to do these things. It's like, "Oh, cool. They're doing that." It's another thing where they've made decisions to do and >> create stuff and and I love it. I just It's the best feeling. I was a part of

32:26 this as a kid when I was a 18-year-old kid, 19-year-old working in the gym industry. I got to experience uh what it was like to be in a a culture that was kind of like that. And it was so impactful uh to my development. It made me just I just loved it. I just loved it. I still even thinking about it now, it was such a good time. But anyway, so we have some trainers that work for us that are dads. So, we have a lot of trainers again and there's a group of them that are that are f they're parents and they on their own have set up a Zoom call every week. They call it Mind Pump Dads. And I just found out about this like a month ago. I just I didn't even know they did this. Cool. >> And it's so cool, right? And so on one of them, I actually hopped on on one of them. >> Um I didn't really hop on. I made a video that they got to watch together. And I'm trying to make time to hop on it cuz they're they want me on there to

33:13 talk about, you know, you know, being a dad. How do you how do you combine that with work and the responsibilities and all that stuff? So anyway, this morning uh I get a message from Rob who's in the group and uh he's like, "Hey S." He's like, "Can you make this, you know, this time I know it's short notice for the Mind Pump Dad's uh meeting." I'm like, "Ah, I can't do it. I got to I'm actually doing something at that time." So what he did instead is he sent me a video uh telling me what the topic was and he's like, "If you could if you could add anything to this, uh I think it would be awesome." And so the topic was and I'll pull it up. I think this is so freaking rad, dude, that they did this. The topic was what is a mind pump dad? It's like what is it? What does it mean to be a mind pumpump dad? Like what are the qualities of a mind pump dad? So

33:59 here's some of the ones I wrote down >> and uh I didn't show them to you on purpose. Uh or you Doug. I respect you guys both as as as fathers. >> So I'd love your your input on this. So >> guess before you say it or do you want to just say >> No, I'll just say it. Let me know if you want to add anything. here. >> So, wrote down seven things like what does it mean to be a mind pump dad. I said number one >> leads his family by example. So, I thought that was number one. I think uh I think back to the the best leaders that I ever worked under and they were the ones that led by example and you know I imagine you like you're in a war, you got your general on his horse and he says charge but he's gone before you even take off. Like that makes you just want to follow. So family follows >> uh when when when dad leads by example. Number two, I said works hard, but not

34:45 necessarily more or longer. Just no wasted time. And I think you have to do that when you're dad. Yeah, >> you don't got time to mess around. You can't just hang out and do nothing. You got to take that time and and make it count. >> Number three, plays with his kids. I said that. And that's just cuz when we had I forgot who it was we had on the show, talked about the value of fathers and and rough pals and play with their kids. I said number four, loves his wife in an understanding way. I said, "Not that he necessarily understands her because he may never fully understand his wife. We just love them in this way." And I got that from uh biblical wisdom because that helped me a lot uh in my marriage. Um number five is disciplined and tempered. A man who can't control his anger or desires is a boy. Number six, serves others with

35:31 a joyful heart. And then number seven is humble. He knows he is human, infallible, and gives the glory to others. So those are the ones I I listed. Yeah. Can you think of others? What do you guys think of those? >> Yeah. Yeah, I can think of a couple things. Um, knows how to mentor and coach well. Um, I think that the natural thing as a father sometimes to fall in this role of a disciplinary um where you're the one who just you you lay the law. >> Yeah. Just drop the >> or you just go and you provide where I think uh giving your kid uh the mentorship and the coaching um is is a really important uh role for us. Uh I think nothing is I think uh God our our buddy Michael Smoke said something that's that's stuck with me. Um he said his dad used to say to him that you

36:16 spell love T I M E. >> And so I think uh time you know that you just give them present. Um I think it's so important. I think it's really easy as a dad uh again to fall in that um provider role which I think is so important. >> Um especially when you're a young dad like many of our dads are. Um, and so there's a lot of a grind and hard hours. And so it's hard to make time, but I think that falls into one of the categories that you said that I think is so important, which is like you can't >> you can't f around. Like it's like you don't have you don't because you're >> you have all this time you can just throw away. >> That's right. You don't you can't uh video games and BS like that. Yeah. Scrolling on social media. >> Um, you can't be you don't have that kind of time anymore. You're a dad, you know, and you and and possibly a young

37:01 dad and and while also trying to possibly build a career. And so if you made that choice to do that, the one of that one of those things comes with sacrifices of the the BS time that you must spend because that time now is very valuable to your children. And so I think uh that's so funny that you this that all happened. Did you see what I sent to you that Patrick Bet David sent? >> I I wasn't I didn't get a chance to watch it. >> Oh, you should watch it. Okay. Oh, yeah. So it's really good. I know Doug I know Doug hates when I try and play stuff, but >> Oh, play it into the microphone. >> Okay. I'll play I'll play it in the microphone, but I literally just did I sent you the Patrick BD David one that he he read. I thought that you would really like it. >> And then uh especially since you have a you know a teenage son and a young one, so you have the the kind of generations he talks about. And then I also posted

37:47 literally today uh in uh in my story um uh our our good buddy who mentor family talking about uh he literally was what are the four things that makes a successful father? M. >> So, I'll I'll I'll play the one that uh I sent you for the audience and then we can watch the other one. But here's >> At 5 years old, your dad is your superhero. He's the strongest and cleverest man on the planet. Nothing is scary next to him. Not the dark, not monsters, not thunder. You want to grow up to be exactly like him. At 10 years old, dad is the defender. He's the one you run to when someone hurts you outside, when the bike breaks, or when you need a yes for something that matters. He is still a hero, but he is no longer a magician. You start to notice that he gets tired and that sometimes he does not know either. But

38:34 behind him, it's still safe. At 15 years old, dad understands nothing. His advice is old, his rules drive you mad, and his jokes are not funny. You tell him, "You don't get me, and leave me alone. You are sure you are smarter than him and would do fine without him. And you never notice how much your silence hurts him." At 20, that is somewhere in the background. You're busy building your own life with uh study, friends, first love, first money. He calls you and you decline with I'll ring you back later. He texts and you answer in one word. And every single day he waits for a simple, "Hey, Dad, how are you?" And he doesn't get that text. At 25, it turns out he was right. The advice that annoyed you works and the

39:21 warnings came true. What sounded like nagging was experienced all along. You start calling him yourself, asking and listening. He was never behind the times. He had just walked the road before you and he was trying to save you from the potholes. At 30, that becomes a person. He's not a superhero or God. He's a man who was scared, who got things wrong, who did not know the right uh way either. He worked the job he hated so you could have a childhood. and he kept his own pain quiet so you would never carry it. You finally see him as he is and you love him more for it. At 40, time is running out. You notice the gray hair, the slower walks, the pauses when he loses a word. It hits you that

40:06 he will not be here forever. So now you count the visits. You hug him harder. Say the things you put off for years. One day there will be nobody left to say them to after he's gone. Dad lives inside you for good. You catch his gestures, his phrases, and his look in your own mirror. You raise your own children and suddenly understand every choice he made and every silence he kept. He never really left. He is in your voice when you tell your children, "Don't be scared. I'm right here." So call him today if you can, not tomorrow. Ain't that good? >> I literally I just I I had sent that to you this morning and then I actually posted. So that stuff uh is uh I mean

40:53 it's on my mind uh a lot. I I don't know if I shared uh stop me if I did. >> Um the thing that I've been doing with Max for like uh I think we're a month and a half in or whatever where so the the lessons and the um the mentoring and the coaching side is like a big a big thing for me. is like he's now at that age for me where >> he understands concepts more and so I can really >> talk to him more about like a little bit higher level of stuff and so he's at that age and so I I created this thing where it's a 100 lessons >> and we read them every single night. What's really cool is to see how much uh he's into it. Like he will like after he gets done reading come find me wherever I'm in the kitchen cleaning or doing what like dad come on let's do our lessons. And so it's he's now I've

41:40 trained him so much to do it and he looks forward to it. Now whether he looks for it because it delays going to bed an extra 10 minutes or not whatever >> whatever it's it's it's working and it's and what I do is >> every it's a short lesson. It's always a very short lesson and there there 10 categories that >> I actually use chat GBT to uh well I pick the categories and then I use chat GBT to help uh simplify it for a seven-year-old to understand. And so I did, you know, lessons on uh family, self-awareness confidence love discipline, failure, like so I picked 10 lessons, 10 things. Uh so 100 total lessons, and then every night I add one, and then uh before I add the new one, I start at the beginning and read through

42:25 all all the other ones. And it's now gotten to a point where he like before I finish the sentence that he he says it so he knows what it is. Um interesting. This is since we brought this up like uh made me think of something that is also really uh I thought was really fascinating. So whenever you have these moments, uh it's it it's it's always neat where you see like yourself in your kid a little bit and there's been very few things. cuz he's only seven. So, and I can barely remember back to 7 years old. And so, there's, you know, not there's not a lot of things that I go like, "Oh, that's me or I totally had that." But he sparked something uh because of these lessons that I'm like, "Oh my god." Like, I've always wondered where that was in me. And the fact that my son has that same

43:13 characteristic is so wild to me because I figured it was some some learn behavior or something that I I did. But the fact that he's got it and I know he didn't learn that from me, he just has it. An example that I've talked about it a little bit a long time ago on the show probably or people that have been listening to enough is like as a kid uh I liked being different, which is not normal for a kid. Most kids want to >> fit in. Blend in. >> Yeah. They want to blend in. They want to fit in. And I and I I what I always attributed that to was I wish what I thought was we didn't have a lot of what everybody else had. So like the idea that I was going to have the latest shoes or shirt or the thing that the other kids had was just like that ain't happening. So lean into being my >> So embrace it. >> Yeah. So embrace it. So that that's my

44:00 how I think that's where that came from. I'm not even sure. I just that's what I've figured it was. But my son is not doesn't have that exam. He's that's not him. >> He's he's he he could have whatever. >> Yeah. Right. And so as I all the of all the lessons and we're on like I think we're on like 60 something right now somewhere around there. There's one that every time I uh I read he makes a big stink about. I never do that Dan. And and it's it's literally like uh trying to act cool to fit in with others. >> Oh. >> And I'm like >> right out the gate. >> And and he and it's the only one I told Katrina this. This is the weirdest thing. I'm like, out of all these lessons that we read that he he listens to, uh, it's the only one that he makes a comment on every single time. I said,

44:45 "Dad, I never do that. I would never. That's not like" And I'm like, "Where has that come from?" >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. I'm like, "How weird is that?" Because I thought mine was because of my circumstances >> that I weird. >> But I But now I don't believe that anymore. Now I'm like, maybe it was just in me. >> Genetics. >> Yeah. Maybe it was because my son is not does not have any sort of the similar upbringing as me yet has this strong and strong enough that he feels the need to tell me every time. Yeah, I know. I know, son. You don't do that. >> That's so weird. >> Isn't that weird? >> Yeah, it's all So, uh I we I just had something like this with my 5-year-old cuz uh so and it's not me, it's Jessica. I see my wife in in him. So, my wife for fun, she did this for fun when she used to travel with Cirto Sole. So she used to work, she was married before she was

45:32 married to me and and her husband was a performer of Sole. So some for something like three or four years. She traveled with the circus, but she also worked uh for them. So she had a job with them and and so and you know part of that's how she learned how to do the silks. She got trained by the best in the world and got to do all that stuff. Nonetheless, for fun, you know what she did for fun? >> Learned Russian. >> She learned how to speak Russian and she did it just cuz she wanted to. Now, a lot of the acrobats and stuff, uh, who, you know, were part of the circus, >> Yeah. >> spoke Russian, but they also all spoke French and English. Uh, and but she just on her own, she's like, "Yeah, I just I just decided I want to learn." And I, by the way, I figured this out because when her and I before we started dating, I had a massage therapist who spoke

46:18 Russian. And I, you know, this is when I barely knew Jessica. Jessica comes out and they start speaking Russian to each other. And I'm like, and you guys know what Jessica looks like. >> Yeah. She doesn't look she doesn't look like she'd speak Russian. >> No. And and she just did it for fun. And she also has a knack for language. Like um she's around my family who speaks Sicilian, which is a dialect. >> And my wife will understand and we'll and she'll say the words in Sicilian with a decent accent. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah. Like like a really decent accent and she'll pick So she's got a knack for language. She's just really good at it. So anyway, uh Jessica uh has been had this little program to learn Spanish for for my son, Aurelius, >> and it's like his favorite thing to do. >> He just want he just loves it. And I'm

47:04 like, "That's you. That's from you." Like he's got a knack for it. He just wants to learn it's like his favorite thing. He's like, "Mom, can we learn Spanish?" >> Like what kid wants to learn another language just for fun? >> That's so wild. >> So cool. >> There's got to be genetics, right? >> No, it has to be. I mean that that it's blowing me away. I've like told like remember I came in the room after he had done it like I waited until it was like the first time the second time I was like whatever it's like every time I'm like this is weird. >> Yeah. >> I'm like of all and and it was like of all I keep adding lessons and there ain't no other one. That's the one that >> that's the one when he gets Yeah. When he gets all like I don't I'm like yeah I got it buddy. >> I know what that feels like. >> Yeah. And I'm like that is so weird because I was so adamant that way that like and which I'm it's I still haven't grown out of that. I'm 100% that guy. Like who >> actually you me, you and uh Justin uh

47:50 kind of have that in common. >> We do. Yeah. It's a it's a shared trait. I just assumed it was for different reasons. And and to be totally honest, I never really fully knew because I can't trace it back to a moment of something. It was just Yeah. And now that I see it in him, I'm like, >> "Oh, wow. Maybe this is just a a characteristic." >> Hey, I've been meaning to ask you. So, you it was I think it was a month ago you said you were going to start being really consistent with taking seed. >> I am. Okay. So, every night you >> every night. >> So, what do you notice uh so far? >> I mean, God, I'm a my gut and everything is And again, it's it's hard to tease this out because I'm so dialed nutritionally. Um but my gut, my psoriasis, everything is feels amazing right now. >> Yeah. >> Um I'm interested if it's impacting my

48:36 sleep positively cuz it's now uh because we're about a month in. I mean, I was literally leaning over when you were talking earlier just I hadn't checked my sleep score. I'm like, I'm on a I'm on a nasty. >> I think Doug, look up, do probiotics impact sleep quality. They probably do. Um I I am this the most cons I take supplements all the time. The most consistent supplement is my seed. And there was a 3-week period where I didn't take it cuz they hadn't sent us some. In fact, I was getting frustrated, so I actually bought my own. For everybody listening right now, they send us free product. They sponsor us. I bought some. That's how much I like >> uh their product. And I can always tell that. Look at that. Probiotics can modestly improve sleep quality. So, this I I I'm trying to get to the bottom of what some of the things um I thought

49:24 healthy fats are probably playing some of a role, >> but I'm on a really good I had just came off of complaining about what was going on with my sleep a few weeks ago, and I'm on a really nice streak right now of not only a high sleep score, but also a high readiness score for me, which is really interesting. Um and and I've already like check all the normal boxes, right? shutting the TV off. I do my chamomile tea. I do I mean I I I I do all the other stuff, my magnesium, like I I've been very consistent with everything. Uh and this is always fun for me when I get like this because uh I do track a lot of things uh when I'm at this level. So it's really it is fun to try and figure out like oh wow is that really making that big of an impact um as as I as I think it may be. So, but I

50:10 I've been 30 days or give or take a couple days very very consistent um uh with it. I wanted to ask you since you brought up seed because I have had a few moments though where I'm uh I'm like, "Oh crap, I forgot to take that or and I just ate something." Is it I know I'm supposed to >> So, I know I'm supposed >> It's better on an empty stomach because the capsule is designed to go through the digestive tract and deliver the probiotic to where it needs to go. >> Yeah. >> So, eating slows that down, but you're fine. >> Okay. >> Yeah, you're fine. Because I that's what I was because what it's not going to make a huge difference. >> What I contemplated is like, oh, if I if I just ate something and I'm about to go to bed >> um and I forgot to take the seed, >> it's not a waste. >> Is it is it a waste or should I wait in the morning and have it in the morning when I'm on an empty stomach? >> No, take it before bed. >> Okay, you're fine. >> Okay. So, it's better to do that. >> I asked them the same question.

50:56 >> So, Oh, so I got I got a topic I wanted to bring up uh because I was thinking about this the other day. Uh I was driving early in the morning. Uh once a week I'm going to this uh church thing and it starts at 6:15. So I'm up early driving and I see these dudes uh bluecollar workers and they're out and they're working and I have so much respect uh for blueco collar workers. I just grew up in that with my dad, you know, doing that or whatever. And I'm looking I'm like, man, these guys work so hard, right? They bust their butt or whatever. And then I remember having a conversation with my son where he was asking me how why is it some people make more money than other people? Is it because a job is harder? >> Mhm. >> And so I said, "No, that's actually not

51:42 what makes somebody make more money. It's uh how many people can do the job and how and how much people want that job to be done determines the pay." And so he's like, "What do you mean?" I said, I'll give you a good example. I said, a doctor is a very important job and not very many people are willing to go to school to be a doctor. So, they actually make a lot of money. I said, but a professional football player makes way more money than a doctor because way more people like to watch professional football than go see a doctor. And there's way less people that could play at that level. So, even though a doctor is a really valuable job and it's really hard, >> they make a lot less money than somebody

52:29 who's playing a sport uh on camera. >> And so, I think he got it. But I also like to communicate that to to people because I think the average person still gets confused with that. >> Yeah. >> They look at a job, they're like, "Why does a school teacher make less than a, you know, this person or why does that person make less than that person?" Their job is here's why. Although it may be a valuable job, there's a lot of people that can do it. And when you have a lot of people that can do a job, you're going to get paid less. It's just it's just this is why public speaking, by the way, if you're a really good public speaker, I don't care what field you work in, >> get you make you're paid good. >> You you I don't care what field you could be a plumber, >> you could be uh you anything. If you're a really good public speaker, you'll make the most in your field because nobody wants to speak publicly. That's

53:15 like the number one fear people have. >> That's a that's a really good point. Even if it's a field like that that >> I don't care what field you're in. If you are the if you were the best public speaker on plumbing, I bet whoever that guy is or girl is making a bunch of money. >> They're making more money than the other plumbers. >> Yeah. >> Because or the other, you know, whatever shoe makers, I don't care what the what the field is. Artists, it doesn't matter. >> It's because uh we value public speaking and nobody wants to do it. >> Market determines that. >> And so this is the thing that I think people need to understand when it comes to pay. This is really good. This is a really good thing to communicate to your kids as they're growing up because it could be really hard because I'm looking at these dudes. It was like, it was like 5:30 in the morning. >> Yeah, there's no doubt he worked hard. >> Let me tell you something. He wakes those guys work way harder than I do. Way harder than I do. But the difference

54:00 is uh you know, I'm doing something like this that a lot not a lot of people can do and it's got the high demand for it. So, I make more money than the guy breaking rocks out there. And that's just the way the market works. >> Yeah. There's I'm trying to think how else I would articulate that too because there's also um you know to to credit you and what like the to to be good at what you do right cuz like you said physically you definitely do not work harder than them. >> Sure. >> But the the mental work and discipline that you've had to put into reading and studying and practicing speaking and >> um you can't discount that. >> No. Um, you know, it's not it's not this backbreaking laborous thing. 100% not.

54:46 But the hours uh that you have sacrificed outside of getting paid, >> right? >> Okay. Outside of someone paying you to do this to get good at the craft that you have gotten good at uh pales in comparison to probably that that that guy that you're talking about um is definitely works his ass off. um how many hours outside of getting paid has he continued to improve or make sure be better at that skill, right? >> Sure. But you can't quantify it that way. There's there's no doubt like you can't quantify it that way. The way you quantify it is how high is the demand for that job um and how few people can actually do it or are willing to do it. That's what determines your pay. Period. End of story. So when you look at CEOs like this >> Yeah. But don't you think that even even

55:33 at the like using a blueco collar uh job example? >> Well like like like blue collar you know how much money electricians are making right now >> a lot. >> A ton because of the demand for >> because there's because we need a lot of electricians with these data centers and we don't have enough. >> So I know electricians right now who are making half a million dollars a year. Do you know that? Half a million dollar. So the the the point that I was going going towards because it it is a hard comparison but if we were to play this game of like how even the even that bluecollar worker within that trade that exact skill that he's doing there is almost always an exception to the rule too. >> Sure. >> Meaning like there is someone who is the greatest at that thing and there's someone probably willing to pay whether that be from in the private sector >> or to teach others now how to do that.

56:18 So, and there and and to get to that level, there's a lot of work and effort outside of the 6:00 a.m. to 8 whatever time schedule you work that you also have to work on these skills in order to garner that attention or demand for for that. >> Yeah. >> And so there's a lesson in that also. >> Yeah. There's always a skill uh but there's the you could be highly skil you can be so highly skilled at something that there's no demand and you'll make no money. >> No, I mean you know the most skilled >> one of the biggest lessons I or fastest early lessons I learned in that especially relative to like uh education degree and also that so my my high school girlfriend she went on to uh Calpali and she ended up getting her masters and she got it in w

57:05 administration she got a job with the lo with the staple center with lo Angeles Lakers this was during prime Kobe shack air and some of that so and I'm a basketball fan so of course like I was like so fascinated always talk to her She's like, "Oh yeah, I was having dinner with Kobe and Shaq and and I'm like, "Oh my god." So, and but boy did she work her ass off. She was there at the arena many times from 6:00 a.m. shutting it down till midnight. Worked many weekends cuz events are on weekends. >> Dog money. >> Yeah. >> Dog money. And I remember being like, >> I don't understand. And she's There is a line of people >> want to do they'll do it for free. >> That will do it for free. That's right. that would literally that are retired, they already made their money and they're like, I'll do that job for 30 grand.

57:50 >> I just want to hang out with these. >> I just want to hang out with these celebrities and be around this atmosphere. >> This is why trainers like celebrity personal trainers often times make not that much money. No, >> because you know the rock could ask the average trainer to train them for free and a lot of like okay I'll do that for free no problem. >> And a lot of celebrities and pro athletes expect that because that that is the culture around that. So I remember getting that I was like whoa I and in my mind you're around all these millionaires you're you worked you went you got this high education she you got to be making great no horrible money

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