Jocko Podcast 494: This is What It Takes to Be Undeniable. With Cameron Hanes

0:00 This is Jono podcast number 494 with Echo Charles and me, Joo Willink. Good evening, Ekko. Good evening. Beat the odds. Break the cycle. Be different. Be better. Everybody has a mountain they need to climb in life. What's yours? What summit do you want to reach? And what will you see when you get to the top? What self-inflicted habits will prevent you from getting to the peak? What sort of self- sabotage will keep you in the middle of the pack? Imagine this. What would your life look like if you changed from being passive to being passionate? Do you have an elite level talent? No. Well, neither do I.

0:45 Those with a ton of talent generally aren't running at midnight after a big couple of days hammering miles and long plane rides. To everybody out there with talent, congratulations. I'm just a scrub compared to you. I know that and I accept that. But all I know is that you won't outwork me. Whatever talent you have, and we all have some untapped talent inside of us, if you don't sacrifice, then you won't reach your full potential. That's what they call wasted potential. Don't ever live with that. When you live a disciplined life, you deserve to get to those mountain tops. Are you standing at the bottom looking

1:31 up? That's okay. We've all been there. The beginning can be overwhelming, but you just got to start chipping away day after day. There's one thing anybody can do in life, and that's hard work. What I do to be undeniable is to work every day. I don't know what's going to happen next month or even this coming weekend, but I do know what's going to happen tomorrow. I'm going to run that [ __ ] mountain. I guarantee you that. It's never too late to begin. To be someone new, to stop the bad habits, to start new ones. Yesterday is over and tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

2:18 Today matters. make the most of it. And that right there is an excerpt from a new book. It's called Undeniable: How to Reach the Top and Stay There, written by Cameron Haynes. And Cam knows a little bit about making it to the top. But he also knows about being at the bottom. He was a regular guy. Grew up without much hardships at home. was on the path that many people follow in life. Beers, bars, and a bleak outlook. But then he found something. Something hard, something tough, something rewarding. Something called bow hunting.

3:05 An arena where hard work can be used to win. And I've thought about this. I think it is an arena probably more than any other endeavor where hard work can bring success. And that's what Cam Haynes did. Worked hard and his hard work paid off and he became one of the most successful, recognized, and influential bow hunters in the world. And he wrote about his life in the book Endure: How to Work Hard, Outlast, and Keep Hammering. And we covered that book on podcast 334. And since that time, Cam's written this new book called Undeniable, capturing a bunch of lessons. And not just lessons from his success, but from scores of

3:52 other top performers who lift, run, and shoot with him on his Keep Hammering Collective podcast. And it's an honor to have Cam with us here again tonight to share some of those lessons. Cam, great to see you. Thanks for coming down. And it was a bit of a that was the first mountain top is getting here of the day. Yeah. I got a text on whatever it was Monday or t no was I guess it was on Tuesday. You're in Alberta, Canada. You're on some bear and you're not coming home until you get some. Yeah. And I was so thankful you understood. But so first of all, huge honor. Thank you guys for having me back. I mean this is I was supposed to do a lot of podcasts this week. This is the only one I've made. So, I don't know if that's

4:38 good or bad, but I got here finally. Finally got those bears killed and we're here. But thank you guys for having me. It's it's a like I said, it's a quite an honor. Well, I hope you knew what you were going to get from me. I'm like, bears come first. Hunt comes first all day. I'm like, we'll do this whenever. Like, you you got to take advantage of the time you got the opportunity to kill some bear. Man, that took the pressure off because I don't know. you know, you don't know what it's like to communicate with somebody like you probably, but I'm like, God, this is gonna be the toughest one, you know, because I I pushed them all off, right? But the other the other texts were pretty whatever. And I'm like, do I have to really cuz I was like, I need to get these bears cuz I got to do Jo's podcast on Wednesday. I got to get there. I got to get there. And then you were so understanding. Does does nature work against you when you

5:23 have like a deadline like that where feels like it, you know? It's like, oh, I got to get this done and it's not happening. Animals don't care. Mountains don't care. Mountains don't care about nothing either. So, it it felt like nothing was going my way. And I was just like, I might have to get my mail forwarded here. Mhm. Cuz I'm I'm not leaving. I've invested so much time. I had to I had to stick it out. So, thank you for being understanding, man. I'm just glad you could make it down. Awesome to see you. Um, cool. You got a bunch of like I said, you've got this new podcast. Well, it's not new, but you've been doing this podcast for the past couple years, uh, Keep Hammering Collective, and you brought in all these studs from a whole bunch of different arenas of of skills, and that's what

6:10 you've been doing, and you've captured a lot of those lessons in here. So, you've distilled them down and and made it cool. Um, let's start with the title of the book, Undeniable. Um, I'll go to the book here. You say, "I might owe Rogan for the inspiration behind the title. During one visit, I was sharing how I was able to train with all these different outliers and how that allowed me to pick their brains and see what made them tick. I was able to run alongside the best of the best." And that is how you progress. Anyone who's ever risen to heights in their field has always learned from the greats and has always strived to add tools to their toolbox. Now, I was able to immerse myself amongst winners to try to learn from their mindset. It's like the expression be undeniable. Joe said there's a certain level that

6:56 you can achieve in life that can you can say all you want about Michael Jordan. That [ __ ] is undeniable. He's one of the greatest basketball players that's ever walked the face of the earth, if not the best. That's just an undeniable person. And it's very few people that get to that undeniable place. And if you really want to have no excuses in life, you're going to have to be undeniable. You're going to have haters. You're going to have haters, but those haters can all suck it because they're just lying to themselves. Yeah. Joe comes up, man. Joe gets on a roll sometimes. So, yeah. Then that that idea of being totally undeniable and just working your ass off. And that's we were kind of

7:41 going to get into this before we hit record, but I was thinking about bow hunting and hard work and the fact that I can't think of another endeavor where just raw hard work can pay off in the same way. Mhm. Because you know, if you're you're you got to be in good physical condition, like let's say you got to have good endurance to be a bow hunter, but you don't have to be an Olympic level of endurance. You got to be strong, but you don't have to be Olympic level strong or NFL level strong. You got to have good hand eye coordination because you got to be able to hit your target, but you don't have to be uh n uh major league baseball

8:29 level, right? So you can take those like the the average skills that a human have, but you work hard at them and you run thousands and thousands of miles and you do thousands and thousands of pull-ups and you shoot thousands and thousands of arrows and that hard work will put you in a spot where you can get the job done. Mhm. I don't know that there's another sport that translates that way like like uh wrestling like you hard work is going to get you really close but then there's just some guy that's a natural just a total stud like he's got that explosive energy or you know you can name a sport name any sport you know you basketball okay cool

9:14 Michael Jordan had like really big hands I don't care how hard you work you're not going to grow your hands right and you just you you in bow hunting, it's just raw hard work can give you such an edge. Yeah. And really like you was like the top. I don't know. I don't know about that. But uh yeah, it's it's work does have a huge payoff in hunting. Um where people I think I had another big advantage is I grew up in a small town where being a hunter was cool. M so all I cared about was being out because in hunting it's it's that time in the field. It's picking up those animals tendencies. It's noticing the small things. It's just being immersed in it. And that doesn't happen.

10:01 It's it's reps in a different way because it's just time in the field. So you can't spend too much time because you can't learn too much. You can't be, you know, um there's just so many, you know, hunting, there's like a million different decisions on one stock. Where where to set your your feet? Um you feel the wind. Oh, do I need to adjust where I'm going because this wind is coming, you know, through this draw. Well, I mean, a million different things. Staying out in the shade instead of being in the sun. Um just reading what the animals are doing. So that happened when I was a kid cuz I was just out all the time. And then I'm like, well [ __ ] I can train and I can

10:49 push harder than anybody. I'm still going to get that experience because I'm out there more, but then also I can just be more focused, have more endurance, and be not infallible in crunch time, but that was always the goal. And um so yeah, it's it's for somebody like me of average skill level, you're right, hunting is it was the the only thing. What else would I do? Yeah. And now that I'm thinking back to the book, it's when you're just going deeper than anybody else. Like you're going you're going to just go so deep into the back country that you don't have any competition anymore. You just outwork them going back. Yeah. That's what I'd always say is like in regular life, I had no advantage. Like there's always somebody who knows the right people or has more

11:36 money because maybe their dad had [ __ ] money. Who knows what? Or they went to an Ivy League school. They're gonna have an advantage over me in pretty much every setting until we get to the mountains. Yeah. And then I'm just like, guess what, guys? None of that [ __ ] means anything now. Yeah. All those [ __ ] advantages that you make your life pretty easy and pretty nice. And so I would Yes. guess I would be able to go hard. But then also there's another part to that. It's like how comfortable can you be? Because if you're just pushing by yourself, probably the biggest challenge of that is being by yourself in the mountains. A lot of guys get strength with other men. You know, you get confidence. You make you're a little more bold. Uh you just

12:22 Yeah, you just feel more comfortable. When you're by yourself in the mountains for like 10 days, that's really hard. And so this is when you went your first bull hunt in what 1989. Yep. Your first elk hunt bow hunt 1989. And how old were you? I was 19 I think. So now these years where you're developing like this like 22 23 it's not hunting season. Are you going out and just backcountry camping like walking around studying the animals seeing what they're doing and running? I wasn't hiking. wasn't really running at that time. I ran just to get like for football we'd run in the summer. Um I was always in pretty good shape, but I didn't like not the 100 or

13:09 200 mile runs. I didn't do that till I was about 30ome when I started when I had my boys first. And uh I was just like, you know, I just I got to be better. I can't be drinking. I can't be, you know, I'd, you know, how you, [ __ ] I was young and married and you'd like get like start a fight with your old lady so you could go out and drink with the guys, pretend like you didn't, you weren't doing it intentionally. You planned on get getting in a fight so you could I'm [ __ ] out of here. Then you're just like with the boys. Yeah. And so I would do stupid, you know, I don't know if everybody does that, but I [ __ ] did that cuz I just wanted to go

13:54 out drinking. Yeah. And then when I had Tanner and that was like I think 93 and then true in 96 or my wife did. And then I'm like, a [ __ ] loser dad is pretty gay because now you're, you know, these these boys and I I said this, you know, the other day I was on Chris on Modern Wisdom with Chris Williamson, and I said, I go, if as a parent, if my if my kids had these this these amazing talents, and they do, but if I didn't get that out of them, I didn't do my job as a dad because they could have been what could they have done and I was just like nah you know what you guys are good you don't like

14:40 doing that stuff I know it's hard it's fine so they wouldn't even be they wouldn't live up to their potential we you read that about untapped potential like that's you know man's greatest regret well to me my greatest regret would be untapped potential of my kids maybe you know true it is doing amazing things and inspiring a lot of other young men. And so I thought I need to prepare them. I need to get whatever they're capable of. Let's get it all out of them. So that was that was when it changed for me. Squeeze it out of them. Would you go I can imagine. Look, it's it's hard to So now you stop you stop the drinking fighting or stop the fighting with your wife in order to go drinking, but now you're just like, "Hey, I'm going to go

15:26 spend the weekend in the mountains just by myself." Mhm. Yeah. I would I would How's that conversation go? It's not hunting season. I'm going to leave and I'm going to go spend the weekend in the mountains. Yeah. She was always pretty supportive of me cuz I remember we first started dating and I killed this giant buck. And she was like, "Oh, so you hunt?" I'm like, "Yeah, I hunt." And she was just like thought it was just like her dad. Her dad would go and like one trip a year. And so then it was like So I I was gone. and I killed this giant buck and I had it in my truck just the head like in the front seat and it was like the hide every everything and uh you know then she was just like what is up with this guy. So she you know that

16:14 was right when we first started dating so she got kind of immersed into my lifestyle pretty early and knew that I was you know pretty obsessed. Yeah. I was driving with my wife across the Coronado Bay Bridge. She was my girlfriend at the time, but we were going to the San Diego courthouse to get married. And as we're driving across, I said, "Hey, I'm a frog man. That's not just my job. That's who I am. And I'm never going to change. And if you don't want to get married to me, I totally understand, and it's okay." and she just like chuckled and went, "I know who you are and I know what you are." And I said, "Cool." And we got married. But very similar, like she knew and I kind of told her that out

17:00 of the gate, this is what I do. This is who I am. And I'm not going to we're not going to get married and now I'm going to be like, "Oh, you know, I'm going to take a shore duty job or whatever." Like, I'm not doing any of that. Right. And I think it's good to if they understand who you are up front is probably going to be a much better chance of survival. Yeah. And I mean, you asked, you know, because today's my anniversary, right? That's right. And 33 years, but uh you asked you said something about the bear and I I said, "Yeah, my wife was pumped." And you didn't know if I was joking or not, but no, I she was pumped. She was like I called her from I killed that second giant bear. And I called her and I said, "Trace, you won't believe it. I killed Scarface." And she was like, "You did." You know, just you got to have cheerleaders, right? You

17:46 got to have people. If you care about something that much and your spouse doesn't give a [ __ ] it's gonna be tough. Yeah. I mean, they got to want you to win. Yeah. You know, for this to work for sure. So, she's always wanted me to win. Good. Good to go. Uh I guess you open up the Look, this is a bunch of people in here. The first the first person that you put in the book is Gogggins. And uh he's telling the story about this race and Gogan's feet. You guys are running this race together. Gogan's feet are all jacked up and you know he kind of does a little uh uh stop pit stop to check out what's going on and you just decide you're going to keep keep running. Um and you say you say I assumed that David would get it figured out and would catch up with me but I

18:33 couldn't h help doubts maybe I won't see him again. But no sure [ __ ] he caught back up with me and my brother Taylor Spike who was running the race. By the time he reached us, he was running in a different groove. Just as we were going up the last grade to do one more summit in the race, my calf began to lock up, so I couldn't run. As I started to power hike up the hill, that's when Gogggins took off. When I reached the top of the mountain, 30 mi into the race with only a couple left to go, I asked the c I asked a cameraman who was up there how Gogggins looked. Well, he had his shirt off. Remember, it was cold and rainy. And he was saying, "They don't know me. They don't [ __ ] know me, son. Who who was he saying that to? I asked the cameraman. Nobody. There was nobody up there.

19:20 Yeah, that was, you know, cuz I was worried because I'm like, Gogggins had to stop cuz he had to undo his shoe. I don't know what's happening with his feet, but normally in those races, people just like I made up like an excuse to get in a fight so I can go out drinking. People will will say stuff and then they're pretty much done. Yeah. Right. And uh I'm like is [ __ ] go is is Gogggins not who I thought. You know what I mean? Because I didn't know. I didn't You don't know. You see online. You didn't know him, son. I [ __ ] I didn't know. And you read the books and you're like, I don't know. Those are just words. I I don't know until I'm actually looking at somebody and actually see what they do. All the other

20:06 [ __ ] Everybody says all the tough, you know, like a badass. you write, make these stories, say these, you know, whatever. And I'm like, [ __ ] that would suck because I've been looking up to him forever and for being a badass, right? And uh I was like, I hope I I hope that whatever I hope anyway, yeah, he so he proved that day and every other time he is the real deal. But I was like I was worried and uh yeah, that that got, you know, he beat me in that race. So yeah. Yeah. Uh he I worked with him for a little bit when I was in in the training detachment and like we'd be out in the desert and we'd have to uh we'd send the

20:52 platoon out there but we we'd have target sites set up and this targets would be like 10 miles away, 12 miles away. And you know it's a it's a bit of a chore to like you got to bring all the gear up there and you set up these target sites that the platoon are going to hit. You got to put furniture in them and put lights on them and stuff like this. and we would like load up the trucks and and goggles would just run out there and you'd be like okay, you know, it's like right on. And the other funny story was there's another type of training that we do which is close quarters combat and going clearing houses, right? And when guys make mistakes, you get punished. And the way you get punished was doing tire pulls. And so you'd have like tires and various other shitty things to do. Like I show up to the training site and you know I'm

21:41 down in the house and watching guys do clearances and stuff and like like David is is not teaching. He's I go what's what's what's Gogggins doing? They're like oh he's running the tire drills and I go I go what do you mean? And I go out there and see he's he's just out there when the guys would get in trouble and get punished he would just do their punishment with them. He was like the freaking tire petty officer. It was freaking funny. No, he's he's definitely he loves to suffer. Yeah, I didn't I didn't I didn't know that, but uh and I realized in that race and then we've lifted and we've run since, but where most people people falter is where he actually gets better and so that's pretty rare. I mean, you saw he loves

22:28 training those fighters and and he's rough on the fighters. [ __ ] Tony Ferguson and then Style Bender recently. It's just, you know, he's just got a lot of endurance. Yeah. He's been working on it for a long time. [ __ ] Yeah. Uh, you mentioned Chris Williams, Chris Williamson earlier, and this guy was like a I I think the term Echo Charles, you might have to check me out. Party boy. Is that in his in his previous life, he was like a party boy. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like nightclub promotion. Yeah. And he was on a reality TV show. Did you know that? I feel like I knew that, but I didn't see the show. And and then he kind of woke up one day, you know, had like a little bit of an awakening and he's got the podcast now, the Modern Wisdom podcast accent. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a British accent and all

23:13 that. Yeah. He woke up with that accent. That helps. That makes you sound smart. So smart. Yeah. Um he went and did love lift run shoot with you and you say this in the book. After shooting arrows, we took a warm-up run up Mount Pisca before grabbing the 72lb rock and in my truck. The clouds had settled over the 1,60 ft tall mountain, so we joged in a thick fog for about 7 milesi before heading back to the truck to pick up the rock. We took turns hauling it up the mountain. Chris learned something that everybody who comes learns eventually. There is no good way to carry a giant rock up a mountain. And that right there is just life. Like it's going to suck and you just got to freaking get into it. Yeah. Yeah, that is hard. and people they come and I

24:00 usually say we did both with him. I wanted to like he's so well spoken and has such a good way of distilling things down. So I wanted him to like share everything or I wanted to share everything. So I did we did the run, we did the rock, I took him to where I grew up, the little town that tiny little logging town I grew up in just and I just you know showed him I'm like there was like a manufactured home there and like a like an okay truck. I'm like, that was my dream right there. If I could have single wide, double wide, whatever. It's like a trailer, but then they got a little nicer than their manufactured homes, right? But still a trailer, a skirt, get a skirt, still showed up on wheels, right? And I'm like, if I if that if I had that, a decent little trailer and a truck that

24:46 ran and a job I didn't hate every day, um, that's a win. So, I showed him that just because I wanted him. And now he's, you know, true to form. He's talked about that a few times and he does a great job of um I don't know just like putting that in context. But normally I tell people, okay, I said, "Do you want to run or do you want to carry the rock?" Well, nobody wants to run because they know how much I run. So they're like, "I think the rock would be better." It's not [ __ ] better. It's not better. I guarantee you. But so anyway, we did both and he uh Yeah, it was good. I was out surfing with my buddy Seth Stone and uh we it's this spot where where there's you can either go in on this cliff face where there's a

25:33 decent chance you're going to get smashed or you can take this long paddle which then you have to go across the beach in the long walk home. And so we're out there for a while and I was telling him, hey, you can go this way or you can go that way. And and he goes, hey, which one of which one is easier? And I said, "Well, it depends what you mean by easier because like they're both gonna suck. You're get freaking mauled." Yeah. So, how far up it how far is it up Pisca? It's a mile and a half. It's a mile and a half and it's uh 1,000 ft of elevation. Yep. Yep. Yeah. That's with 72 lbs. Mhm. Yeah. That's that's gonna that's going to leave a mark. Yeah. It's just because you it just it's on one side or the other. Tanner, my son, oldest son, is a little bigger. So, he kind of rolls it behind his head. He's got the all-time fastest time. I mean,

26:20 Huberman, I remember he said, he's like, "So, who's the fastest carrying this MMA fighter?" I'm like, "Tanner was filming cuz he was working for me." I was like, "No, it's this [ __ ] right here." And I said, and he was like, "What's the time?" I'm like, "You don't need to worry about that right now." Dang. Cold blooded. Yeah. Yeah. And because Tanner gets it up there, I mean, he is a freaking beast. He doesn't get, you know, bro, he's going he's tapping into those ranger roots, too, right? Yeah, he is. And And uh Yeah. So, he's he's just tough. Just tough. He's good at rucking. Yep. Rucking is a is a there's a natural level of ability in rooking that some people have. And it sounds like Tanner definitely got it. Yeah, he's he's got

27:06 that. He says that's about all he's good at. But he has been learning. I really like that, you know, with the military you, you know, I've heard guys say, you know, I'm a professional trigger puller. Well, it's hard to get a job doing that in your life. So, Tanner was really good. They had this place, it's a coal range as part of the RASP over there and it's navigation and he was he was really good at navigation in the army and now he's now he's working where I used to work. I was superintendent of the, you know, of the water and power company there. But, uh, so now he's working there. He just wanted, got out of the army, worked for me for a while, then he's just like, I just want a regular job, just construction. And he's really good at job drawings, like elevation of

27:52 pipe and using the laser to to get that set right. So he's it's cool that he's using those skills from the military in and then you know he's just he's just been through a lot of [ __ ] So regular job stuff, you know, like in the interview they're like, "Have you ever have you been in name a a stressful situation you've been in?" You're just like kind of laughing because most people are like, "Oh, I got a flat tire on the freeway and it was raining, you know, but you guys have done a lot more than that. Jack. Um, fast forward a little bit here. You say, and again, get the book. Uh, the book is is when did it come out? A couple a

28:38 month ago, something like that. May 5th. May 5th. Yeah. So, get the book. Um, it's available right now. And I'm going to read some highlights from it, but it's got so much good information in it. So much good like knowledge for human beings. Uh, it says, "On the third week of the season, Roy and I made it back to Eagle Cap, and that's when I killed my first wilderness bull, a spike bull. It was 22 miles to the trail head." See that? Right there. Right there, you're already you're already left behind 95% of human beings. Yeah. 22 miles to the trail head and we had two llamas to assist us. A spike bull doesn't yield a ton of meat, so it wasn't too heavy weight wise, but it was still 22 mi. This wasn't the giant trophy I was going for, but the bull but the bull was still

29:25 a big mark of success for me. It meant a lot to go back there and hunt a country that people larger than life, heroes of mine, had hunted. Roy didn't kill, but he had opportunities. It's just a tough hunt. Regardless, my friend was excited for me. We felt like we had done something monumental. This was our introduction to the brutal challenges of the wilderness. Then Roy moved his family up to Alaska and started building his legacy as both a contractor and a hunter. While I remained in Oregon, I tried to find people to share the wilderness experience with, but it was a hard time. It's not for everybody. You either love it and can't think about anything else, or you hate it. Not much in between. That sprawling remote country and the feeling of insignificance it brings is too much for some people. It made me feel alive. For

30:10 the next 12 years, I ventured into the Eaglecap wilderness. Most of the time, I was by myself. I stopped wasting the energy trying to convince somebody to join me. I couldn't afford to squander it as it took all I had to withstand those unrelenting mountains. Hunting on my own felt like nothing else I'd ever experienced. While hunting deep in the wilderness, I saw the world through a whole different lens. And through that altered perspective, I had a stark awakening. I'm nothing deep in the back country. If I die for whatever reason back here, nothing changes. Absolutely nothing changes. The wind will still blow the same. The animals will still carry on. The mountains will remain unaffected. Nothing will change if I die. Mhm. I was

30:57 uh I'm reading a book right now and this guy was in Vietnam and it he says the exact same thing. He's like halfway through his deployment in Vietnam, guys are getting killed and he's he's just like thousands of guys are getting killed every day. has no impact on anything. I lost these three guys 2 days ago. The war has not changed at all. If I die today, not it will not change anything. Everything will keep going. The Marine Corps will keep going on. Nothing changes. Mhm. So, it's and it's a liberating thing in a way. It's like, yeah, this I'm gonna do the best I can, but it's I'm not that big of a deal. Yeah. I think we we, you know, make a

31:45 bigger deal out of ourselves, our existence than we should. You know, I I remember when my dad died, I was running and uh I just couldn't believe I would just see people driving and I'm like, they don't know. They don't care. They're going to go get coffee. There's nothing nothing changes. All that changed was like I was in pain. You know, my my dad's gone and I'm like, but you look around and you're like, what does it mean? And so I can imagine with war with being faced with death, that much death. I don't know. I mean, I came home from Iraq in like 2006 and I

32:31 remember, you know, I'm with my family now and like we walked down the street to get ice cream for the kids or something and it was just not no impact of war to anyone there at all except for me. I'm like in a totally different world and everyone's just like like you said they're getting ice cream, they're getting coffee, they're walking around and everything's just carrying on and that's the way it is. It's like I know I is How do you I mean isn't that one of the hardest things to deal with for people coming back from being deployed and and then you're like looking at Do you almost get mad at people like you see people complaining about their [ __ ] dinner or whatever and you're like shut the [ __ ] up. I've been I've been talking a lot about that.

33:16 You know that silly uh uh there's like a fable about the the scorpion and the frog. Have you ever heard this? So the scorpion says to the frog, "Hey, can you carry me across this river?" And the frog says, "No, you'll sting me." And the scorpion says, "No, if I sting you, we'll both die." And he goes, "Okay, yeah, makes sense." So the scorpion jumps on the frog and he starts swimming across and then the scorpion stabs the frog and they both die. And before they die, the frog goes, "Dude, why did you sting me?" And he goes, "I'm a scorpion." And this for me is the way I look at people. Like, they're just going to do what people do. And I'm not mad at them. Just like I'm not mad at the scorpion, and I'm not mad at the frog for trying to be cool, and I'm not mad at the scorpion for stinging him. Pe man,

34:03 people are going to be people, and they're going to do what people do. It's kind of like, you know, you wouldn't be mad at an elk because he smelled you and ran away. you wouldn't be mad at that elk. You'd be like, "That elk is doing what the elk is going to do." And that's I hate to say it, but that's kind of the way I view people is like they're going to do what people are going to do, and I'm not going to get I can't like hold a grudge against humans for being humans. Yeah. I mean, but that's when you have that healthy perspective. Yes. Yes. I would think that you don't always you're not always that forgiving probably or I mean I would I would have a hard time with it especially just I can't imag I didn't serve I can't say I can only assume but man I don't know be

34:49 tough it takes it would take something someone doing something really like really truly offensive to piss me off um you know bad mouthing you know, like a fallen friend of mine or something like that might get me like pissed, but you know, I I came home and, you know, it took probably took me like that specific day, literally walking down the street with my kids to go buy them ice cream and seeing people doing what normal people are doing. I was kind of like probably had four seconds of like, these [ __ ] people have no idea. And then just being like, "Well, that's why we're doing it." So that they don't have to have any idea, right? Like they can

35:34 be mad that there's not a strong Wi-Fi signal in the freaking Starbucks on the plane. Yeah. 30,000 ft. Yeah. I just I I remember and I don't know if it's probably, you know, some Hollywood stuff, but um American Sniper. I remember that Brad uh who was it? Bradley, who was it? Cooper. Brad Cooper. Yeah. know he was playing Chris Kyle, but he's just sitting there staring at the TV and I was just thinking that's that's obvious a powerful scene, you know, just Yeah. Yeah. That and and Bradley Cooper, he he did a really good job, man. Like when when when I first saw him and I heard him talk in the movie and it was like this guy did a really good job of

36:21 imitating Chris. Unfortunately, what they didn't show is Chris was like actually a really funny guy and like a wise ass and he would laugh at people and make fun of him. He was a [ __ ] talker. He was like a A-level [ __ ] talker all the time and having fun and they made him like real brooding in the movie and all that stuff which was a bummer, but he did a great job. But yeah, that scene, I think that's a real famous scene, too, because the way they shot it, you know, you're like just seeing him watching TV and then you realize he's is he's not watching anything. He's just freaking zoned out. Yeah. I had I I know that when I came like as as a officer in the military, you have a lot of paperwork to do. Yeah. And I remember my and I I I went to college as a grown

37:10 man. And I was like 28 years old. I went to when I went to college and I would I was like I wanted to get A's. Like I I I I wanted to beat the teacher. I wanted the teacher to not be able to give me a question on a test that I didn't know the answer to. And I would study till I knew. And I can remember the questions that I missed right now. Yeah. Like I can remember them because it wasn't that many because I studied. I was went too hardcore. Yeah. But when I came home um from my last deployment to Iraq and I remember was I like had a lot of paperwork to do when I was in college. I would do paperwork for 9 hours straight just I would like write papers or read or whatever. When I got home for a little while I would be like

37:56 a half an hour deep or like 20 minutes deep and I'd be like I'm going to do something else. And I just had to I had to reaclimate myself to be able to have the all right, I'm going to do this thing that's tedious and stupid. Mhm. For a long period of time. That was probably my closest to uh having some kind of, you know, whatever symptoms of flashbacks or staring at a TV that's freaking got nothing on it. Yeah. I mean, did did you miss the excitement of war? Yes. Yes, I did. the the the thing that was that I really noticed a lot was um

38:42 I didn't realize it but when I was over there when I came home when I was over there I if I wasn't going out with the guys when they were out and a lot of times they would be out I'd have a bunch of different groups you know we had we had we broke up into five different elements so almost all the time there would be like one group of five or six guy of my guys in the field and you you you worry you're waiting when there's guys getting wounded and killed every day. Mhm. You're expecting one of your guys to get wounded or killed and you have this I I would have this like gnawing sick feeling all the

39:27 time. And it was and I didn't I kind of I kind of it became like a you know when you're when you're wearing a pack and you got it rubbing you bad and after a while it just stops hurting because this is part of life. Yeah. So, I got to that point and then when I got home, I was home for maybe like a month and we did like two weeks of turning in gear and all this stuff and then I had like two weeks of leave where I was just hanging out with my family and I woke up one day and I was just like, I feel so like good today and and I what is different? And I was like, oh, I'm not worried about one of my guys getting killed. Mhm. And that was another sort of feeling where it took about a month for that to go

40:14 away when I got home of gnawing fear that one of my friends is going to get wounded or killed today. Which sucked. Sucked. Yeah. Um Yeah. Fast forward a little bit. Yeah. I I I just I don't know. I'm always Yeah. the mindset of that cuz you know they prepare young men to go and fight and then you come back and like that transition back is always like I because I I saw Tanner do it and I just remember that you know it's always the army is

41:01 always about or navy or whoever is always about you know the team and the guys and the unit and everything and then you come home and then you're just by yourself and so the army does a good job was saying, you know, kind of like taking your power away as an individual because you rely and your guys rely on you and you rely on them and you die for them and they die for you and all that. So, they do this for years about it's all about the men and then you're just gone by yourself and you're like, well, [ __ ] I thought I needed everybody but now I'm I don't have anybody. Yep. So, yeah, I'm always Yeah, that mindset and like how to deal with that. I'm always

41:46 Yeah, because I get messages from people and I I don't know what to say. Mhm. You know, guys struggling. The thing that the other part of that is not just like the guys, but also you have a purpose. Yeah. Like you you are a you are, for lack of a better word of saying it, you're assigned a purpose in life. Like this is your job. This is your machine gun. this is what you need to be able to do with it. This is our task. This is our purpose. This is where we're going to go. You have a mission in life and that is freaking awesome. Yeah. And it's it's an awesome mission. I mean awesome's maybe not the best word, but it is a it is a noble mission, right? It's an important noble mission that you are a part of. Mhm. And you have that and then

42:32 you got a bunch of your friends that are also have the same mission and then one day it's gone. Yeah. Snap the fingers and it's gone. So that's why when guys talk to me about that, what I tell them is like you got to find a new mission. You got to find a new mission. You got to find a new mission. Whether it's a job, whether it's your family, whether it's a sport, whether it's going to back to school, but you got to say, "Okay, I'm done with that mission and here's my new mission." Because I think the worst I think where the worst mental space is is I don't have a mission anymore. I don't have a purpose. Mhm. Even for you like reading in Endure and in this book for you finding bow hunting. Yeah. It was you have a mission now. And then then when you had kids now

43:20 you had another you have these two very clear missions in your life. Be an awesome bow hunter and raise awesome kids. Well, you take those things away from somebody, you don't Now, what are you going to do? Yeah. It's not going to be generally speaking, they're not going to go in a good direction. Yeah. It's um I know archery's helped a lot of people for sure. I was just uh Do you know um Caleb Brewer? No. He was um Yeah, he lost both his legs um in IED and uh he was in bear camp this last week. He killed it. just killed sent me a picture but just killed nice big bear but he's green beret. Awesome. Yeah. So he he has a pro archery pro shop I think in must

44:06 be in Tucson I think. Could be Phoenix. But anyway and that just helped a lot of veterans for sure. So that's that's a big deal too. Just gives them gives to focus on something just like it was for me but different. Yeah. And it's it well the cool thing is even though there's not a job for trigger puller in the civilian sector hunting and bow hunting you take a lot of skills that you use in the military land navigation you know breathing right when you're getting ready to take a shot packing out like getting your gear ready to go on a hunt is the exact same thing as getting your gear ready to go on deployment or go on a mission. So there's a lot of applicable skills that you learned in the military that you can just take and apply them to hunting. And so that feels good too. Yeah. And I think I told I

44:52 don't know if it was Doug Collins because he was on the podcast, you know, he's had a VA now, but um it's like these guys like Tanner I can think you think about what well what job cuz it's not professional trigger puller but like the top of military they could do any [ __ ] job. Y I don't give a [ __ ] what the I don't know I don't care what the job is. They know what it means to sacrifice, to be there, to be do what's expected, to be a leader, to so give him a job. Y it'll get done. Y it's just, you know, and and that's why I feel good with Kener with the construction cuz he he does that is his mission. He wants to be the best at that. And that's, you know, I'm very or I'm not I'm I'm just

45:37 happy or relieved he found something. Oh yeah. Yeah. Because it's like it's not everybody does. And that's good, too. Like I've always found well when I was a kid I work construction and it's like you can visually see what you did each day. It's very gratifying. It's not like you're pushing papers or looking at spreadsheets or something or just doing a job where you don't see any progress in construction. You get to see what you did today and that feels freaking good. I think that's why people order so much [ __ ] from Amazon. You know what I mean? They feel like in a way in in a weird way they feel it make gives them the feeling like they built the thing. They like earned that thing when all they did was click the click and then showed up at their house and they kind of feel like they they did something good. It's like the freaking

46:22 weakest dopamine uh gratification for for creating something in the world is to order it on Amazon. What what I heard too is people they get the same sort of dopamine reward by saying they're going to write a book. So they say, "I'm going to" and everybody say, "Oh, that's great. You're writing a book. Got my payoff." Then they never [ __ ] do it. So yeah, we're Yeah. I don't know. Humans are God, we're a [ __ ] up species sometimes. Speaking of [ __ ] up, here's something for people every everywhere. Um, you say this in the book. I signed up for a 10K and quit at mile five. Yeah, we all have to start somewhere. What? How did you quit at mile five? God, I was just I was

47:10 like just a [ __ ] weak. I was probably like I was probably like 20 three, maybe 24. you're just if you're just a regular person at 23, 24 with some shitty part-time job going to school, chances are you're not that tough. So, I had been tough before cuz I played football and I was like, you know, did all that. And And you ran track, too, right? No, I didn't do track. I did football, basketball, baseball. Oh, okay. I thought he did track at some point. No, my my dad was your dad's influence. Yeah. Yeah, he was he was a really good track athlete, but uh No, I never did. um back in my in my little logging town. You weren't cool if

47:56 you did track, dude. You played baseball. So yeah, I just ran to get in shape. But anyways, at this time I'd been out, you know, drinking and doing all the stuff and I'm like just my time was going to be terrible. Um I felt like [ __ ] and so I just stepped off the course. Damn. [ __ ] terrible. But and I see the reason why I know how all this works is so if I so I that was a loss right that day. Then for whatever the case, I was able to turn it around. But if you just keep having those losses or you don't put yourself in position to

48:41 where you might want to quit, you just avoid that altogether, then that's how you end up at a, you know, just [ __ ] overweight and not accomplishing [ __ ] and watching [ __ ] Pornhub every day. I mean, that's just that's what happens, I think, to people. Oh, yeah. And it's like, I could have done that. I could have easily done that. But that, you know, quitting, you can justify it yourself. You can make up all these things and you start to believe your own BS, you know, as we know. But for whatever the case, I was able to Yeah. I just felt like a failure. And but it was the kids. It was, it was mostly just having, you know, I just knew that my boys, you know, I had I had a shitty life. They had, you know, their

49:29 dad. I was there all the time. you know, when I wasn't hunting, but I had a regular job. My wife loved them and was always taking care of them. I'm like, "These these kids are going to be big [ __ ] [ __ ] if I don't push them because they got everything. They didn't I was I was miserable, so I felt like it made me tough as a kid and made me tougher. Um, aside from quitting that race, but uh um but I knew my kids. I needed to, you know, cuz you said like, well, you wanted to raise good kids. I actually didn't care about raising good kids. I just wanted them to be prepared for getting their ass kicked and getting, you know, having to overcome and that life was going to be competition. Um, so I, you know, that's all I was kind of focused on. Yeah.

50:18 Um, another lift, Run, Shoot guest that came on your podcast and fast forward and again, get the book. retired National Football League defensive end Derek Wolf and uh this dude, you know, you you talk through some of the stuff in the book, you know, rough rough childhood, low expectations, people telling him he's never going to be anything, etc., etc., etc. And um but he, you know, obviously he made it made things happen in his life. And he says this, you quote in the book, "If you fail, you fail. But you're not a fa afraid to fail, right? And you push and you push and you push. And what you've done is you found something that you love. You chased it as far as you could go and it hasn't slowed you down yet. It

51:05 just keeps getting better better." And that is in inspirational. And anybody can learn. Anybody can do it. Anybody can go and find something they love to do and [ __ ] chase it. So many people, too many people are afraid to chase those dreams. They're afraid of failure. Wolf encouraged them to keep going. What if you do fail? He said, "Then try again, [ __ ] Go." Yeah. And you know how it works. People fail. They have this big goal and they're like, "I'm going to do this." I see I see with bow ending all the time. I'm going to do this. I want to kill a bull elk. They realize how [ __ ] hard it is. Then all of a sudden they don't have time to shoot their bow. They're not going out. They're like doing something different now. Now they're in

51:52 pickle ball. Like I thought you were bow hunting. Oh no, that was too hard. Oh, okay. But that happens with a million different things. Nobody Yeah. I mean, just sticking with it. Yeah. [ __ ] It's like I wasn't the best athlete in in my high school, but I just never quit. Mhm. So I graduated I don't even know how long ago it was. [ __ ] 40 years ago and I just have never quit training. So now I guarantee there's nobody I went to school with that can do what I do. It was just the long game. Outwork them over the freaking four decades. I got you now, fool. I'll I'll see you in 40 years. Yeah, cuz I remember I didn't they had

52:37 most athletic and I didn't get it. I was like, "Glenn Robersonson got it." I'm like, "What the fuck?" He was a center on the football team. I was a rece I was like the leading scorer. [ __ ] Did he play baseball? And what' you say? He played basketball. Football. Baseball. He Yeah, he did. He was a catcher in baseball. I think he was okay. Um, so how did he get it and you not get it? I don't know. I was probably I don't know. He was probably a better athlete, but all I know all I know is like [ __ ] challenge him now. I still remember that [ __ ] 40 years. Uh, speaking of hard bow hunting and failure, I'm going fast forward a little bit. Perched on the top of one mountain while surrounded by snow cap peaks, I see him. The doll sheep was

53:24 in the distance sitting like a king wearing his massive cold curled horned crown. Right away, I begin to approach, mindful of where I step. These mountain ledges can be treacherous. One slip and you die. I move down an incline, then up another peak. My legs ache, but I'm not tired. All those miles from the past year, the past decade are paying off. I ease to within bow range. At a chip shot range of 23 yards, I try to sneak my arrow over a rock into the ram's vitals. I hear an almost inaudible tick as my arrow arches toward the ram, but catches stone, causing the arrow to hit low, cutting the ram's leg. I have confidence I can make the threaded. I have confidence I can make the thread the

54:10 needle shot. Maybe too much confidence. My dream animal is so close and I make a bad hit on him. My goal in the discipline of bow hunting is perfection and I work toward it every day of the year. Every day I'm working to hone my craft and my abilities and then I just [ __ ] fail miserably like this. I feel sick. Mhm. And this freaking hunt for a doll sheep is like Yeah. What what you you throw the stats in there and it's like to get a tag. It's almost impossible to get a tag and then they put out like a hundred tags and one person or two people or maybe three people will get will actually fill the tag. Yeah. That's how freaking hard it is. Yeah. It's it's

54:56 very tough. And that, you know, incidentally, that was in 2008. So, I've only had two sheep hunts in 40 years of hunting essentially. That was my first one. Then I've had one like maybe four years ago. So, I've killed two rams. Mhm. But it's those opportunities don't come up. You're not 23 yards from a ram. And then that country is very steep. That is it's the same tag. So that tag is a little easier to get because the season starts October 1st and goes to the 10th, which in those mountains right there, you can get some pretty intense weather like 80 mile winds. So that's why a lot of people don't kill. It's like the weather can come in and you're, you know, high elevation in Alaska. But then when I talk about the how treacherous it is,

55:42 that is right where Roy fell and died is he I that where I screwed up was on one side of very close to where he had fell. It's just super steep, super unforgiving. One screw up, you I mean, you just you might not get another chance. And so we had done everything perfect and it's like you see that day it's like that that picture's from right there that was on my birthday October 2nd and uh we were like as high as we could be where you know I got the ram but uh it was it took a lot for that to get in that position. Then I screwed it up and I I made my way back up to Roy because he was watching. He was just like, "Nice shot."

56:28 Because I hit it like I think it was this this wrist, but it'd be like cutting your wrist. So, I got lucky in that I broke it broke its ankle essentially cut that artery. So, it was bleeding. But, uh I said, "Yeah." I was like shaking my head. I said I said we'll get him. He's like, "Oh, I know we'll get him, but might be a while." And I killed him the next day. He was on this cliff edge and I was able to get down and get another arrow in him. Even in this picture, you got a freaking ice axe with you guys. Like this is like this is no joke of terrain. And incidentally, with the on my first elk hunt, I did the exact same thing. And I and I remember coming back to camp and I

57:16 didn't recognize the fact that people missed, you know? I was I didn't even understand that. I was just like, I'm the only person who's ever missed who's ever missed and I'm a loser. Yeah. And I sat down with you at the table and you're like, "Hey, dude. I had a freaking 23 yard shot at uh doll elk and doll uh sheep and I missed it or I did the you you basically shot the same shot I did. You hit him in the in the leg. I did the same thing with that elk. He was bleeding everywhere, but we didn't find it that night. we come back empty-handed and but that was uh it was very reassuring to me. I'm like, well, if that freaking dude Cam Haynes like had a had a bad shot that I guess I'm not that horrible person cuz I felt like a bad human being. Yeah. Like I'm a

58:03 piece of [ __ ] And that I mean there's so many people there at that camp too and like you feel like everyone's looking at you going, "God, did you hear about [ __ ] Joo?" And nobody knew, right? But you that's not how you feel. So I knew exactly how you felt. And um yeah, so it's like you got your bowl. Yeah. You know, sometimes you make perfect shots, sometimes you don't, but you just got to make it, you know, stick with it. And you never know, you got I got lucky and hitting that. Um I'm not going to say you got lucky, but sometimes I got lucky. Sometimes you can be off by this far and you miss the lung or you hit the shoulder blade and you get no penetration. You're not getting that bull. You're only two inches off. You just caught that shoulder blade. Or you can be this far off and get it and

58:50 you're like, "Is that fair?" No, life's not fair. This way it [ __ ] goes. But yeah, it's a rough freaking game. It is. Um, fast forward a little bit. Crunch time. This is when everything comes down to one heart-racing moment. the bow hunter shooting at his target. The game-winning basketball shot, the pup for victory, the sprint toward the finish line, this is the high pressure moment when the work you put in and all the time you spend and all the resources you've used comes down to one single point. The key to my archery success over the past 35 years and the way I've been able to master those crunchtime moments has been consistent practice. I want to make my make shooting a bow as natural as taking a breath. And the only way I found to do that is through daily dedication. Shooting every day. Weight

59:37 vest, no weight vest, pack, no pack, sun or rain or snow. Coat on, no shirt, shorts, pants, bathrobe, one sock only, and nothing else. Doesn't matter. I just shoot. I focus on the process and perfect it. Yes, you can be the best hunter in the world and in better shape than anyone. But if you can't make the shot at crunch time, you simply won't find consistent success. You got to practice [ __ ] to get good at it, man. Yeah. Bottom line. I mean, you can get lucky because we both kind of got lucky on those animals we just talked about. But when I say consistent success, yeah, that's not You can't get lucky consistently. How many arrows would would you shoot a

1:00:23 day when you were like 30? I probably shot more back then. Um, yeah, that's that's my guess is like when you were really developing your Oh, yeah. your technique. I would shoot for hours a day. So, I would say probably I would say probably probably 200 arrows a day, but I would always try to shoot 15,000 a year. So, it was always my goal. But there's like no thought happening anymore at that juncture. No, no, you're just going through because I mean and I was telling like we had some new guys in camp. It was our first bear hunt. And um so I'm going through like I don't even want to say I like I like I I saw them doing some things wrong. I'm like how

1:01:08 does how do I look? I'm like I I don't even want to mention anything because it's only going to [ __ ] you up. You know if cuz what like they're um grabbing that bow too deep and hitting their arm and so I'm like you just have to the grip has to come here. But if all of a sudden you've been practicing like that over and over and over and you're both sided in for doing it wrong, if I fix it in crunch time, who knows what's going to happen. So all bets are off. Yeah. And um you know, not not that guy, but the other guy ended up getting a shot and hit the bear in the leg, back leg. So it's just it's [ __ ] hard. Mhm. And

1:01:54 that was at 20 yards. It's just really hard to keep those emotions in check. And um so the only way to do that is you have to take you have to make the shooting part subconscious. Mhm. And then you can focus on your emotions. But if if the shooting mechanics, you're still thinking about those and you have these emotions to deal with, chances of [ __ ] hitting that thing good aren't high. It's weird too. Um, like in camp, guys that are freaking good, like awesome. Like they'll just blow shots. Mhm. Just blow shots and and they'll be like, I don't know what happened. Yeah. You know, you're like, like my first time I'm like, wait, this dude missed a shot. I'm like, I'm a I'm going to there's no

1:02:40 chance. It's freaking crazy. It's a rough game. Yeah. That's uh um that's one thing like cuz you know I don't know what release you shoot but the big the big fad is like these back tension releases and the all this other [ __ ] I still shoot the old school like people make fun people make fun of how I shoot. Mhm. Even the biggest names make fun of how I shoot and I'm just like is this [ __ ] dead? Yeah. Is it dead? Then I guess it doesn't [ __ ] matter. But like with these releases because on paper like these guys will shoot like in Vegas they have this big tournament 60 arrows or 30 arrows. I don't know what the [ __ ] it is. I don't shoot tournaments but they're like in the X every single time. I guess yeah it's 30 arrows around but uh so the X is [ __ ]

1:03:29 tiny. Every arrow in the X or a 10. But you put those same guys best in the world the same thing and they'll still [ __ ] up hunting because on the target it's not going anywhere. You got as much time as you want. You can focus on your mechanics. When an animal with moving and you're doing all this, it's like so when I say people say, "Well, why don't you shoot this back tension relief are so much more accurate?" I'm like, "Well, if these Okay, if these guys who never miss on a target never miss on an animal, then I'll switch." Mhm. But they're still [ __ ] up all the time, so it can't be that great. And how you've been shooting the same thing forever, too, right? Yeah. Like you It

1:04:15 would be crazy for In my opinion, that's like I've shot the same type of pistol forever. Yeah. Probably hundreds of thousands of rounds, right? for me to now switch to a different mechanism of pistol, but I'd have to re-educate I'd need to get brain surgery to like re-educate my mind. Yeah. Yeah. So, and that's I mean that's kind of how I feel about shooting. If I what I would what I always say is like if all of a sudden I start [ __ ] up a lot then I'll okay, I need to get back to whatever need to figure out what's going on. But I still kill on every hunt. Mhm. And have for a long time. Did you have someone teach you how to shoot or did you read it in magazines or

1:05:03 like how did you actually learn or did you figure it out by yourself? No. I mean, you have somebody kind of give you the basics, but back then everybody shot too long of a bow. So my bow was too long and so I'd have to anchor like with my thumb behind my neck and the string would be like back here because draw length like all the bows came in like 30 or 29 in. I have a 27 and a half draw and um so it was too long. So I'd anchor weird. Well now this is how I do it. Mhm. So I still anchor that way. the bow fits me. But if any any of these pros look at me, they'll be like, "Well, Cam puts his thumb behind his neck." And even Wayne at the bow rack, who you know, my best buddy, he's owned the bow rack for 30 years. He's like, he used to

1:05:49 tell me, "We got to fix your form." I'm like, "I'm not [ __ ] changing anything." And so I haven't. And he now he never says anything. Yeah, of course. He just like, "Okay, whatever." And then as as the technology too got better because you know the technology on Bose and the and the sites and everything is amazing. And did you get to a point where you're like all right this is kind of what I'm sticking with like with your release and everything. This is what I'm doing and you see new releases come out you don't even pay attention to anymore. Don't even I mean yeah I don't I know what works. Um I change broad I very slow to change anything. I changed broadheads um recently to those Grim Reaper carnivores are kind of an expandable and uh they open like a 2.75 inch hole whereas I was

1:06:37 using a fixed blade head and those were like a inch and an eighth or inch and a 16th. So you know with an arrow it kills from hemorrhage. A bigger hole is going to kill that animal quicker. So that's been like the only big change I've made in a long time. But yeah and I just know it works. Um, like I said, if I if I started struggling and I, you know, I wasn't making crunchtime shots, I'd be like, "Okay, I got to figure something out."

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