Our Guest Gary Russell - This is what got Big Finish the Doctor Who License - Oh Yes It Did!

0:00 hello Sirens of audio do you read me Sirens of audio do you read me hello podcast audience this is the Sirens of audio have you subscribed to our latest entry Sirens this is Dwayne bunny you're back at content control open the editing software you are not subscribed to our entry Sirens you're back at content control what's wrong open the software hello podcast audience this is the Sirens of audio have you subscribed to our latest entry let me try hello sirens What is the capital of Australia you are not subscribed to our entry how many beans make five hello podcast audience this is the Sirens of audio will you

0:46 subscribe to our latest entry hello Sirens you have not subscribed to our entry right like And subscribe I [Music] [Applause] [Music]

1:35 good day audio files this is the Sirens of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who and other cult TV in the audio medium I'm Dwayne and I'm Philip good day Dwayne good audio fils good day philli I got it right this week you did well done thank you very much how are you doing I'm good yeah it's very very warm at the moment it's yeah very hot in Sydney and suppos be 42° tomorrow so we're having a final um Heat Wave flying just before the uh end of summer yes we've yeah we've got a few final warm days here in tazy 2o but um we had a real cold one the other day it got down to I think about 17 15 17 something like that we were very cold

2:21 I'm very depressed about that I want to be where you are today's episode's a good one we've got Gary Russell joining us again because we are going to be talking with him it's a rare chat because he doesn't often get asked about the early early big finish releases that are non Doctor Who the first ones so we're going to be talking about oh no it isn't and Beyond the Sun the very first two big finish releases I can't believe it's taken us this long to get here Phillip no I know yeah this is the start of big finish it's hard to believe it started before Doctor Who and these are the yeah first time Nichol directs the first time Gary Russell directs it is the very beginning of of what is to come for many many years to come absolutely so um we've got that to

3:09 look forward to after we give a little review of each of the stories before we uh bring Gary on for the chat um just as another reminder we've got Matthew Waterhouse arriving in Australia this coming week Philip that's very exciting yes he'll be flying out on Tuesday his time so I've been emailing him and yeah giving information about stuff so very excited so Melbourne is happening next weekend the weekend of the 23rd um and we've got an addition to the to the activities in Melbourne I noticed Philip yes because we have um a performance coming so standup comedy duo inis Lloyd is coming to perform for us and to give us a taste of their show

3:56 that's going for the Melbourne Comedy Festival so it's Time Lord Time Lord that's right so it's an impro Doctor Who show and people come the the Melbourne people who come will get to participate um by you know calling out suggestions as an audience and and watching this troop of players perform before they come before they start performing for the Melbourne theater Melbourne theater compan that's wrong the Melbourne Comedy Festival Comedy Festival y yeah yep so that'll be happening um I've I've I've never met Rob Lloyd before but I've been watching him do his David Tenant for years and years I went and I cannot remember when I went to this old like uh 30 seater room and I watched him do a one-man show

4:45 it must have been 15 years ago it would be at least 10 years ago no it was in Melbourne in Melbourne okay I think it was part of the Melbourne Comedy Festival and he was doing lots of Dave and tenants so it was all current stuff so everyone knew it and it went down really well so I've been watching him over the years and it' be nice to see him and meet him in person and uh see what he's doing of course with his partner uh David inis as well that's how they got the name so here's Rob Lloyd his partner's uh David inis and uh so they're the comedy so that which of course was a producer Doctor Who for people who aren't aware long long ago how could you be listening to us and not know who inis lloydd is how sure we have lots of more new Doctor Who fans I

5:32 mean new Doctor Who is what it's the 20th anniversary actually I think today now we currently recording this is the 20th anniversary of the first episode Rose going out which is today I'm pretty sure it's today I saw something with something fles up today so if it's not today it's around around about this time so yeah 20 years a young man just like that like how did that happen Ian it's I had some color in my hair yeah I mean new you who's almost been going now as long as long as classic who went for True which is pretty staggering just another announcement too a guess that I had on last year was the

6:19 the biographer of Malcolm Hulk he'd been compiling a book for some time and he came on to talk about ma Hulk U you you weren't on the episode for that one but Michael Herbert uh joined me and we had a chat um because I'm a huge fan of Malcolm Hulk and all his work especially with the Third Doctor uh he's he was working on a book that was going to be released later in the year but he's gone and self-published it he couldn't wait any longer for the publisher so uh Michael's book is entitled uh things are not always what they seem the writing and politics of Malcolm Hulk uh you can get that right now I'm going to put a link in the description and it's the first biography of Malcolm Hulk to ever be published and it draws upon interviews with friends family and work colleagues his scripts novels

7:05 non-fiction works his letters to friends and family and his MI5 file believe it or not so uh that's an interesting book that you might want to grab hold of it's um self-published so print on demand so go and grab a copy of that um and I hope that all goes well for for you Michael if you're watching say for those who are listening I actually happen to know he's doing a launch of his book I'm is trying to find it here because he's actually been emailing me and I have been because I've invited on his behalf a couple of old do who cast members who have appeared in Malcolm Hulk shows um I don't know whether they'll be able to attend or not but on his behalf I've invited them his book launch is going to take place on Wednesday the 9th of April at 2: pm at the mdala tavern which is in

7:53 hamstad so I don't know anyone who is in ham I'm pretty sure hamster's in London but if anyone's nearby Hamstead or wants to make a trip to hamstad on the 9th of April at 2 p.m. you could actually go and be part of his book launch on the Wednesday so I think that would be a great thing to do you never know who may turn up you never know who might turn up and if I was over there I would certainly be going off to hamstad to go to that book launch because um here he's actually sent me some pictures and a chapter and it does look like a fantastic book yeah yeah I want to get a copy myself all right uh just one final bit of news um before we jump down the Rabbit Hole a sad bit of news um early this week uh we all would have seen the news that um Simon fiser Becka had passed away um another friend of the

8:40 podcast who joined us and uh SP we spent some time with a lovely lovely man and it was uh very sad to to hear of his passing he was very engaged with the fans and yeah that's that's probably my overriding feeling about Simon is that he was so engaged with the fans had a lot of love for his his role in Doctor Who and for the fans and um everyone shares that I think Philip yeah and we you can go and listen to our interview with him which was a lot of fun but we also had a great chat with him um off mic as well um and I just I still recall we talked about the fact that I'm pretty sure this was off mic he'd been approached by people after he'd done you know three episodes of Doctor Who um people had come and asked him to you know borrow money from him so they could

9:25 you know buy for mortgage and for buying houses because they all thought he must be hugely rich as thinking just in terms of you know three episodes of Doctor Who is not going to make you filthy rich and so not rich enough to start lending money to your friends to for them to buy houses but apparently you had a couple of people who felt like they uh had the right to to Bow large amount of money from him just because he done a bit of stuff here and there so we had a big laugh about that I don't don't think that was on mik I sure that was off mic but it was one of those stories that really cracked me up just in terms of you know people assuming that these dog you and you know people still think about the the Doctor Who cast from the original cast from 40 50 years ago all loaded n they were so badly paid back then that they really were just living

10:10 hand out most weeks and if they were lucky they might have managed to get a house out of it but most of them weren't earning enough money for that at all and it was certainly worth getting a hold of his books too I was able to get hold of his audio books I think the his first one was called my doic has a puncture his second one was my darac has another puncture and his third book was um let zygons be zygons did he do a fourth one I think he just did those three that all he was he was writing a fourth one so I'm not sure how far God or whether it's like to be published but he did tell us he was working on a fourth book yeah so grab those uh books if you can um they're really really good I love the audio and I think I'll probably listen to the audio books again um just to listen to

10:57 his voice because he's nice to listen to when he's reading heartfelt some of the things that happened to him in his life were pretty horrible so he was quite a resilient man all right um on that note you know what Phillip Oh I thought we'd already done that what Dwayne do we have to go down again not yet we haven't gone down but let's jump down the rabbit [Music] [Applause] hole all right now that we are down the rabbit hole I'm not going to put you on the spot as I usually do I'm going to make it pretty easy for you I just wanted to go through some of the comments and feedback that we've had recently oh fantastic so so from some various channels um there was a comment here by I love Tob on our Sylvester McCoy live in

11:45 Australia um video from a couple of weeks ago just um that was part of the podcast uh this person said Paul is his name he says wonderful Dwayne and Philip hartfeld thanks for sharing although in hindsight it shouldn't be a surprise I was quite taken aback by how animated Sylvester was possessing of such a spring in his step gallivanting impressively up and down the aisles safe to say that the environment created by you both and your team is as genuinely enjoyed by your guests as by appreciative attendees all in all greatly inspiring and exactly what true fandom should be very well done all the best for now that's I'm Paul so I don't know if you had a chance to see that uh

12:31 Phillip but I thought you might like that being the chief organizer of the Live Events so it was really lovely to get that feedback yeah it's great for you thank you so for that lovely excellent and it was uh interesting watching Sylvester with all the energy it was his favorite part of the day wasn't it he commented many times that the Q&A especially he loved yeah I mean he would go back to the green room and just collapse but uh as soon as as soon as it do you remember in Hobart there was a there was a couch in the room that we were using as a green room and if we left him alone for 5 seconds you'd come back and and be sprawled out on the couch he walk back into the room he he he he gave everything to the audience and said they all do that I mean I I

13:17 keep being astounded that even when they're not well they you Dr Thea um every guest that we have had has gone out of their way to just give everything they possibly can to the people who are there and they just bend over backwards just give as much energy and support and encouragement and sometimes Madness if it's Katie Manning um this the stories it's it's just I keep being amazed at how wonderful they are in terms of w to give and and there's nothing like that live feeling being in the room with these people um in an intimate setting because you know there part of the reason why I love these events it's it's just lovely and and all of the guests have walked away say how amazing the audiences have been and how wonderful the audiences

14:02 have been so yeah I hope if you haven't had a chance yet to be part of that audience or you have you been you know come back um as I said The more we can keep getting audiences to come the more people we can keep getting out here but it's all dependent on people you know coming to everything not just picking and choosing um you know the more you come to the more we can get happening out here very good here's one more on Sylvester's time with um this is from nickname 183 on YouTube um they say it was an honor to get my question from the Q&A featured in the video it was phenomenal meeting Sylvester and love the work you guys do so thank you for that feedback uh bald eagle uh 3715 on I can't remember which

14:51 episode this was now was that the best of big finished 2024 episode uh they just say best intro yet Dwayne loved it very funny and that was my that was my um send up of the war games scene scene the start of an episode a few weeks ago I can't remember if that was uh which which one that was but um it's nice to get feedback on those I'm so glad you always yourself because can I just say Philip never gives me any feedback um so it's good to it's good to get some thank you I laugh actually I don't I don't want to get feedback from Philip because I'm a bit scared all right I I never know how any episode's going to start I go oh no what's he doing this

15:36 time all right here's one from our Blue Sky account uh that I noticed only a couple of days ago uh this is from Mark uh who goes under the username rugal ad. b.so um Mark says excited to hear such a strong review for V from Big finish from audio Sirens I'm going to order today so that was uh great to hear uh it's it's what we want to do we want to turn people on to these things because we we love Audio Drama so passionately and we V was such a worthy worthy addition to Big finish catalog uh I'm I'm glad our enthusiasm got someone to buy it yeah please let us know what you think after you've listened to it and I hope you're still glad you bought it but for me yeah

16:22 that was my favorite release of January which it surprised me but boy it was good I'm I still think about it still thinking about the um theme ideas behind it it was a great piece of writing all right here's a bit of feedback on Janet Fielding in canra uh unfortunately I wasn't able to make that so but it was nice to see all the photos and and hear all the comments especially this one from from glender Lis Chapman um she says what a fabulous day my first Sirens of audio experience so hoping we can see you again in the ACT thank you for all your work putting it together such a pleasure to meet Janet so interesting so professional not a negative word about anything she led us into the world of Television production and Doctor Who over such a long career so kind and supportive of

17:08 everyone I always enjoyed teegan's feisty character so so great to meet the lady behind Tean thank you so great to meet so many interesting people thank you so lovely to get a first time at a one of our events and uh un fortunately I wasn't there to help you at that one Philip sorry about that but it was great that it turned out to be a good day I should say the camber crowd were amazing it was so much fun to have them there but I was actually making fun of Janet because I well I do make fun of Jen anyway but just in terms of she brings the bad weather and we were commenting in cber a bit that she didn't do it that cber we were having the most beautiful lovely weather and how unusual because for those who don't know we took Janna to CRA to the Blue Mountains and it was so foggy and wet you couldn't see a thing like you couldn't see a hand in

17:53 front of you and then we took her to tesl Mania we went up Mount Wellington it was so foggy you could didn't see a thing that everywhere we took Jenna to the weather just turned she just she was you know a lightning pole for bad weather but I was commenting and making fun of her about the fact that you know you've managed to have camber to be so lovely and then we sent her back into a cyclone and so she left CRA into to head to cycl Alfred and um I'm getting text messages from her saying yeah bloody cycl bearing down on me now um and the last time a cyclone hit um Brisbane she was there 1976 and so she was sort of you know dreading fortunately thank goodness it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it could have been um there's still a lot of flooding

18:38 a lot of people lost a lot of stuff still especially Northern New South Wales but um yeah and and Janet's fine but a lot her plans to go away she's going to head up to some of the islands up north were sort of Blown Away with the Cyclone so it wasn't quite the uh holiday with her family she was expecting yeah unfortunately Cyclones well fortunately in a way when Cyclones usually hit land they more often than not they pet her out but you just can't tell there's such an unpredictable unpredictable unpredictable weather event um you just can never be sure so it's always better to ER on the side of caution when it comes to Cyclones than than not got my taste of that last year when I was over on the west coast that's

19:24 right too I'm glad J's okay she's fine having I'm actually having deal with on Sunday night but she's fine excellent give her my regards I will do all right let's crawl up out of the rabbit hole and we're going to talk about the very first big finish audio which was released way back in September 1998 it's the adaptation of Paul Cornell's oh no it isn't so I'll read a blurb before we hit you with the trailer the king's balls get bigger every year what could possibly go wrong on Professor benice Summerfield's investigation into the Lost Civilization of perfecton nothing it seems until they

20:11 leave the planet and spot a dirty great missile heading towards their ship but instead of Oblivion Benny finds herself plunged into the Strange World of panto dear diary it's me again Benny have you missed me I've been so busy recently you know saving the world a few times that sort of thing but now the world is safe again oh yes it is Wy no that takes me back the princess Bernice and woy the cat won't slower walls if I put my feet down too hard these glass slippers will create a horrible ankle hemorrhaging situation the king's balls get bigger every year but it wasn't just one big party was it

20:56 now look at the floor it's a complicated pattern but what it almost certainly comes down to is don't step on the white tiles huh these puzzles are often deceptively simple you see you're getting an archaeology field trip after all watch the expert as I said it all comes down to don't step on the black tiles you think that would have put me off field trips with my students for a while wouldn't you not me always a glutton for punish I am although remind me not to say that when Jason's around he gets excited when I say the word punishment oh the ships are Sitting Duck can't you take evasive action evasive what what you think this is a battleship it takes 15 minutes to

21:42 make a 45° turn oh my God the screen's full of them do we have weapons no force field Shields anything defensive no what about ordinary equipment we can use as a weapon or disguise or something Oh you mean like confusing their targeting systems by ejecting the cargo fill the space between us with a million of tons of price graes that sort of thing oh my God Benny yes exactly that can you do it no my life is just one close shave we have to go back don't be stupid Bernice we've got what we came for we have to get this away from the sunless permanently Bernice Dr kitzinger I know you can hear me bring me the Visionary or Jason dies oh Jason after all that I really didn't think I'd see my darling ex-husband again

22:29 shows how wrong a girl can be what sort of person calls a girl before 3 p.m. at a weekend namey it's not fair all right oh godess uh hello Benny um don't I even get a hug no you bloody don't what exactly are you doing here Jason Kane I can tell you're pleased to see me your nose always crinkled up actually I was wondering if woy had thrown up something oh no it's your aftershave sorry and despite that I followed him all the way back to Babylon where I met some very special people who are the pair of you uh we're Travelers

23:14 you have come from some country beyond the ones I know one of the cold Lands Beyond the Sea even further than that I calm down look please we come with me because let me tell you I'm puffed from chasing you around around this damn City if you'd rather take your chances I'll leave you to it I'll I'll come with you you see he just needs to sleep it off I want to talk to you young lady return here tomorrow oh sure um in the morning considering the way my party is going make that late in the morning and that was the first time I saved the Earth but it certainly it wasn't the last time you know most archaeologists would love the chance to go back to the past really see how things work but I bet none of them would believe

24:00 just how smelly history can be or how dangerous hey Benny what's that smell I can't smell anything like ammonia come on down here B really I think something's going to happen keep still don't let it see us it's Spring Heel check no this is real just keep quiet it will kill us no it hasn't even seen us keep absolutely still no keep away come on bny me should come [Music]

24:52 back a world full of insects bring a chair in and tie her to it yes Mr con oh don't go to any trouble on my account it is no trouble I assure you oh oh get off thank you you may leave us now but Mr KH leave us yes Mr KH okay KH what's this all about insects Professor Summerfield so I saved the world again got shot at jumped on tied up another thing not to mention to Jason and just when I thought things couldn't possibly get any worse I found myself in the middle of the second world war stay are I'm

25:37 armed godess who are you oh F your face looks familiar no I've just arrived on the island my name is Bernie Summerfield I am an agent of a hostile power I am unarmed I Surrender one of the most traumatic times of my life of both our lives not yet you don't know Benny she always saves the day oh give me something to live up to why don't you live up to I'm Sorry Miss Summerfield but that is irrelevant you see you are both dead there were a few times when I thought I'd never get home again but here I am back in the 26th

26:24 Century at last back to a steady uneventful full life H you know now I come to think of it I had some fun didn't I I wonder how long this peaceful bit is going to last oh I could do with a bit of excitement again Benny come back to bed huh excitement beckons no extract [Music] ens oh no it isn't the facts and the trivia it's from a novel by Paul Cornell adapted by Jacqueline rer the director was Nicholas Briggs an executive producer Jason hegy just one at this moment producer Gary Russell the music

27:11 and sound design by Alis lock and the cover art by John Sullivan it was recorded on the 25th and 26th of January 1998 that's such a long time ago starring Lisa Bowman is building Summerfield Nicholas Courtney as wisley Nicholas Briggs Jonathan Brun James Campbell Joe castan Mark Gattis Alis lock and Colin McIntyre this was the first ever released by big finish and therefore Nicholas Brigg's first directing role for the company the novel oh no it isn't was published in 1997 only a year before this was adapted and recorded So it's actually a very recent Story the novel was part of the new adventures range and the new adventure range by virgin publishing

27:57 used to be with the doctor but this is the first novel released without the doctor because virgin had lost its rights to Doctor Who and so the um New Adventures have been so successful Bernice Summerfield was such a successful character that virgin decided to continue the release of stories with Bernice now as the lead poor Cornell had been first approached to adapt his own story but as he was he was too busy on the series wavelength he suggested Jacqueline Raina to adapt the story for him it was originally it was originally called behind you Jack Rainer gave Bernice her own birthday of June 21st Lisa Balman had appeared in the F final television classic Doctor Who story survival playing Cara Nicholas Courtney had played Brig Brigadier Alistair Gordon

28:43 leth Bridge Stuart since the 1968 second do adventure of the wether fear though he had first appeared with William hartell in the Dal master plan his final appearance in the classic Doctor Who was going to be battlefield but he will turn up again in the seran adventures and his daughter Kate Stewart currently leads unit Nicholas Briggs and M gatus would later play pivotal roles in Yoo starting 2005 with Briggs being the voice of the darx and Cyberman and several other creatures and and Mark Gattis were go to be rer for several shows poor Cornell would have another book of his human nature adapted as a two-part story for new whoo Joe cadan who plays bchi had also auditioned for the role of benice but hadn't got it and so was given this role in place

29:29 the original Bernice theme Here by Alis lock had been composed for different for Corell project but hadn't been used and that's some of the facts of the trivia I could have gone on as it's the very first story might be finished lots of facts around uh that particular time the um the Wilderness years good fact I mean this is kind of this is yeah good fact this is kind of towards the end of the Wilderness years no sort of halfway no there's another seven years to go so it it's after the Doctor Who movie had come out oh and it failed okay so yeah it is sort of the mid way point and very very important was was this first series but I have to admit that we've been going back and

30:15 looking at things from the start over the last four or five months uh and I put the I wanted to put the Benny's in the schedule but I actually wanted to start from Series 2 because I never really enjoyed series one and I'll be able to probably talk a little bit about why that is however going back and Rel listening again with uh with my current ears I enjoyed these a lot more than I remembered that I did the first time around so um I guess the first thing that St that stands out to me or would probably stand out to anyone who was listening to that would be the voice of Nicholas Courtney it was so good to hear him again but a very very unusual role I

31:01 always I found it very difficult all the way through to try and imagine him as the cat that voice always makes me think Brigadier every time's it's a bit bit stereotyped um when it comes to is it no not stereotyped typ cast I should say when it uh when in in terms of the Doctor Who universe but there were some there were some very funny lines in there I suspect Philip that you enjoyed this as a theater goer a regular theater goer much more than I did because you got all the there were probably more jokes in there that I got um but there were some aspects of it that I really love too um what what were your initial thoughts on this when you when you went through it again well I have always enjoyed this and I loved it just as much

31:48 this time it is one of the few stories I will just I will just laugh out loud throughout more and more and every time I listen to it I pick up new lines new doubl on Tundras I haven't picked up before um for for I mean pant isn't really a big thing in Australia but I've got a bit of a history and tradition because of my English background for my parents and so I have seen live panto in the UK um and looking forward to going seeing some live panto this year at the end of the year when I'm over there um so panto is this particular theater style which as I said isn't huge in Australia but it is huge in the UK and I think for that audience it really is appealing so it's just full of double on Tandra it's just full of stere just repeated

32:33 lines and ideas and the fact that Bernice is laughing at the genre and pulling apart the genre so the fact that it is you know it is time scales don't work it it feels like medieval England and yet you have um the wrong the wrong items like you have guns and the dress the dresses are all Victorian but it's set you know so nothing does work and the fact that Bur is pulling apart all these things I think just is part of part of the knowing wink throughout the grill I think a a hilarious alien um the idea of of an alien species that just search for knowledge no matter what will actually suck out your brain for knowledge but just they go around good fact bad fact that they are such a

33:19 funny hilarious character an alien and the way they are able to give away the detail so there's nothing about don't like I think the the premise in terms of how it's set up in terms of how they end up in this world of pantomime is is great the the actual danger that's actually happening on the outside in the outside world that they're not really aware of for most of it as she had suspense it's just such a really well adapted story that doesn't feel like a novel that's been crushed together I mean you know one of my big issues with a lot of the new adaptions is the fact that the story is so big it doesn't quite work into a 2 CD story now I I've not actually read I have not read the novel I don't know how much Mo in the novel but Jacqueline rain however

34:05 she's adapted it has obviously cut a lot of things doesn't feel like she's cut anything that mattered the story doesn't feel raced it doesn't feel Under Pressure the scenes seem relevant they seem logical I'm sure there's probably a lot of stuff this is being cut but she's obviously done so well that I can't feel it so to me this does feel like a four-part Bernie story um so yeah I love it and can say I love this Theme by Lis lock I'm not sure how many seasons it gets used for I think there's three main themes of been to get used they they break into song which I think might be the last maybe it's the last CD in this season but this it is but I love this theme it's so dramatic use it for that one and then they go back to this one for the second season

34:52 right yeah just say even the them CH and chic yeah I I remember when the theme changed and going back and listening to this made we go oh I really miss this theme this probably one of my favorite thieves um I think it suits the range so well let's talk for a minute about Lisa Balman because she we've spoken to others who didn't see Lisa Balman as Benny in their minds when they were reading the books but they came to love her um as Benny very quickly so she kind of fell into the role and it's interesting that it was Peter Griffiths who is um known who known to us you know Peter uh

35:39 Sydney fan who is also regular with um the flight through entirety podcast he's on there um he's a friend of Gary Russell and he's the one that actually originally suggested that Lisa Balman be be used for Benny it's also interesting that um Joe Castleton was was um audition for the role too cuz she's another one of these actresses who had have been involved with other audio Productions not only with audio visuals but with BBV so she' done a few of those as well and a few videos she was in to so so yeah what are your thoughts on on Lisa she she's been that consistent character right from what is it 27 years now yeah I I think it's astounding that her voice

36:26 to me is just well she's Benny and that anytime I hear her I just sort of think because I I love the tones the richness of her voice there there's a certain actor who just carries in their voice power and distinctiveness and she's one of those you know I mean Nicholas brings another as you say it's whenever you hear I so give Lisa b a Jew she plays other R other accents I do not recognize her um the whole um Ellie and Joo and liot yes Ellie and jgo and Lightfoot you would you wouldn't recognize it's the same actress because she's putting on that cocky accent and there's other time she puts on accents I don't recognize her she's she's an unbelievable actress um like so many

37:12 actresses in the UK you sort of Wonder yeah you can't believe they didn't find more Fame because they're just so talented and she just exhibits Benny from the start she's got gravitus she's got humor um later on she gets sing because she's got got a great singing voice as well and of course we also know as a director she is just so talented she's at this stage she was mainly being a photographer too so a lot of photographic books she's done um for other actors and for spotlight she yeah she's just exib she just is Benny straight away and she just hits every Mark perfectly it was actually interesting hearing Joe in this production that they you know they thought about you know they auditioned her it would have been a very different Benny just in terms of The Voice

37:58 because yeah but I I do Wonder whe they even thought about when they heard Lisa bman do the audition where they anyone else even got to look in because once you had that voice I thinking you know it's so distinctive it's not going to be similar to any other woman you cast you know one of the big things the big things have to think about when they're casting is that voices aren't similar and a lot of women's voices can be fairly similar a lot of men's voices can be two but women in particular can often be um misheard but with Lisa Balman there's not going to be another woman with her richness and toneal qualities so you never have to worry about who you're casting against her and that's that's that's an important part for such a strong character the more I listen to Lisa bman as as Benny um the more I think there is

38:46 no way that Steven Moffett wasn't influenced if not completely ripped off the idea of River Song from from Benny um um she is so similar in many ways I mean there are differences too but there are there are some similarities there that I I am very suspicious of let me put it that way but yeah is fantastic and if there was anyone to appear like do a crossover from Big Finnish to the television series I would I would dearly love Lisa to go across as Benny that would be awesome yeah I you're right I mean River Song and Bernie Summerfield are really the same

39:32 character and you know and and as it said I mean you you could e have um yeah and when you listen to all of the River Song stories now they really are Bernie stories and vice versa they just both slip into each other's rows too perfectly and they time they're time traveling they're archaeologists they're both bit sex cised they both drink too much they say exactly what they think they don't care what others think about them yeah they they're the same [Music] character uh some of the other cast members as well you you start to see like Joe Caston has already mentioned uh but Mark gatus was in there I loved his Kenneth Williams in there or you know oh don't be like that you know that was Fant that got me love because I love

40:18 that I love Kenneth Williams in Hancock um and he he's just doing he's doing the same voice so it's an homage to that so I really love Mark gatus doing that um it's I mean it's not my favorite story uh by a long shot from Benny but it's it's it's very very enjoyable um Jack Rainer had being very Hands-On right from the start she was to go on in the Doctor Who range and do some pretty amazing things as well so yeah anything else you wanted to say about oh no it isn't that I've left out it's interesting that as the very first production of big Finnish that really you couldn't it couldn't fit anywhere into the range now in terms of the the cast and in terms of the

41:04 production company because all those people nearly all of them would go on to have major carees in big finish huge numbers of them would go on to have big carees in new Doctor Who so your Gary Russell would go on to be script editor Nicholas Courtney doing all the voices um Mark GS has written I don't know eight or nine stories he's done a lot of stories he's also starting two main roles in in yo um yeah Alis lock would go on to be one of the probably the main um sound designers and Etc so what we are seeing in this very also had a big role in the Sirens of time as well so yeah um he would go on to do a few different stories so

41:51 these people would all with the very first release big fin have nailed it which is just it's very hard to believe that a company would get it so right the first release directing producing characters actors they just they just nailed everything and and this the model they've created would go on to however many years it is afterwards 27 years or whatever it is it's unbelievable and they it was just nailed straight away from this from the word go with this very first audio it's yeah you wouldn't know this was a pilot of anything else because they just hit the ground and went for it it's amazing absolutely all right let's move on to the second story that we're going to discuss now and that is beyond the sun I

42:40 read a blur for that you're on your own Benise Benise Summerfield has drawn the Short Straw not for her the pleasures of Intergalactic conferences and highbrow lecture tours oh no she's forced to take two overlooked freshes on their very first dig and just when it seems things can't get any worse her no good ex-husband Jason turns up claiming that he's in deadly danger Benny finally begins to believe his wild claims but unfortunately only after he's been kidnapped from his hotel room feeling guilty she sets out to rescue him well let's face it no one else is going to her only clue is a Dusty artifact that Jason claimed was part of an ancient and

43:25 powerful weapon but Professor benice Summerfield PhD knows that's just silly nonsense she's been an archaeologist long enough to know that lost alien civilizations do not leave their most powerful weapons lying around for any Nutter to find do they once again Benny is all that stands between Jason and his own mistakes as she tries to prevent the wrong people acquiring this terrible and somewhat unlikely weapon a weapon rumored to have powers Beyond beyond the sun beyond the Sun the facts and the trivia recorded on the 7th of 8th of August 1998 written adapted by Matt Jones the director was Gary Russell doing his very

44:11 first directory debut Deo executive producer Jason hegy and producer Gary Russell music by music and sound design by Harvey Summers the theme music by Alis lock cover art by Mark slowski the cast will bman has been Summerfield two old dror who Alam Sophie aldred as Miranda and anakah wills is Dr Kinga also starring Jane Burke Lewis Davis Barney B Edwards Steven Fuel and Nicholas Peg Barney B Edwards and Nicholas Peg would both go on to play Dar in Yoo this is the first appearance of Bernice's husband or her ex-husband Jason Kane Steven fuel was a friend of Lisa Balman and he begged her to put her

44:56 name forward as he knew and loved the books Lisa was very unaware of burning Summerfield and the whole book range all she learned she as she came from Steven but she put her name forward and he got the role the ursin the aliens in this story had been named after the science fiction writer Ursa K leuan Matt Jones would go on to write a lot of television and this included for new who in fact two of the best stories ever written from Yoo The Impossible Planet and the Satan Peak pit were the my view anyway and he would later script edit be script edited Again by Gary Russell with the torwood story Dead Man Walking which is a fairly pivotal story for torwood this was the only story in the whole season that was not adapted by

45:41 Jacqueline Raina and this is Gary Russell's first directoral role in big finish and that's the facts and the trivia Thank You Phillip for that appreciate that yeah another interesting T story as well and um interesting that it was adap by the by the writer of the novel which doesn't always happen so that's an it's an unusual one just for that in itself now my memory of this is that I didn't enjoy it much at all um but once again I enjoyed it more uh on the on the relisten as I usually do with these things and it gave me the opportunity to discover why I didn't like this one so much unfortunately well fortunately that most

46:27 of the cast is fantastic but there was one cast member in there that really really graded on me and that was the actor who played um ail that was lwis Davis and I feel I got to say I feel that was so badly cast that it brought the whole story down for me I could not stand listening to the bloke um you know and there's lots of lots of you know free love talk all over the place and sounds sounds like he's about 8 years old so that made it exceptionally creepy for me as well but that said that was the only negative the story still stands as a as a pretty decent story although it is one of those stories that because it's a novel adaptation I feel that there's a lot more in the novel that would have made it easier to understand if you were digesting it over a slower period of

47:14 time in a more detailed way um I found some by the time it got to the end of the story there was so much happening I I was losing it a little bit um but generally it was I thought it was okay it was great to hear anaka I'd forgotten anaka was in this I knew I remembered Sophie was in it but it was so good to hear anakah so early in the big finish history big Finnish Cannon and I'd also forgotten about Nick Peg and Barnaby Edwards as well so it was nice to hear their voices when they turned up although I I recognized Nicks straight away but Barnaby's he's he's great with his accent so even there it took me a minute to go oh that's that's Barnaby as well um

48:00 and yeah so that's that was my thoughts on the cast I'll stop there and let you take over for a minute Philip and give me your thoughts on this one okay we'll just respond to the things you already talked about so as we say it was adapted by Matt Jones who wrote the original story and that is I think the biggest fault the story has I think the trouble with having the author adapt the story was he didn't know what to come so where with the last story with with oh no it isn't and in fact with stories to come Jacqueline Raina has done all the other adaptions she's able to approach the novel and she can just cut ruthlessly because she doesn't care to the same extent like the characters in the scenes where I think it felt to me

48:46 that Matt Jones had particular characters and particular scenes he as the writer owned and possessed so dearly he couldn't let go and for that reason I think this story probably struggles the most because there there is characters who probably should have been cut and there's certain many scenes that should have been cut and he didn't get the voice right because he I don't think as an as an author you can attack your own work the same way so to me that that's probably why I think it doesn't quite work I I still enjoy it it's still a great Benny Story and there's some clever ideas in it but I do think that that doesn't work the two characters um too and Emil I don't like either character so I can't I don't I don't think I necessarily blame the actors I think my

49:33 issue is far more the characters so you know I think Jane Burke plays the character as required but she's just so shallow so the character is just so shallow and stop talking about her makeup and her hair and I can't believe people in those sort of situations would would react like that so to me she was actually an unbelievable character and Emil similarly I think actually moved beyond the real of reality though I do think some of the stories about his father things um but once again I think a lot of that should been cut I think it was just the author the novel being not being able to let go I suspect some of the emal stuff may have been autobiographical and some of it was you know Matt processing his own childhood and his own father and therefore needed

50:18 the character to say the words he wanted to say whereas I think had Jacqueline Raina had hold of she would have gone none that's necessary it's all gone and I think you could have therefore given it space elsewhere because the conclusion of the story is actually really good and the idea of what's behind it is actually a really clever idea and the whole beyond the Sun and what that does or doesn't mean is a very very clever idea but we needed more time on that and I think the author just couldn't cut it so yeah just reacting in terms of those things um those to me are are why it falls a bit short because yeah I can't decide whether it is because of miscasting I think I think it's more the writing is as with most Doctor Who probably both yeah maybe maybe it's both um I mean was only

51:05 supposed to be 18 19 he's he's only supposed to be a young kid but yeah I do think and once again I think this is moving more into some of the political realm and once you start getting a bit preaching political it can be dicey in terms of how you play that there there were some comments in there about Parenthood as well that I strongly disagree with and I I didn't like like uh I can't remember the exact terminology but it was like Parenthood is the is uh is like a life of being trapped it's not Freedom so if you got kids you're not free and I don't I I didn't like that at all well I think I think it was I mean to me it was it was it was anti-authority that if you have parents you're basically a slave to them and you're you know you're controlled by someone else so it was this whole I'm controlled I'm not free and that

51:50 parenting as opposed to can be a loving amazing safe relationship became a burden and yeah as I said there was a lot of points being made it's it's all very it's a good idea to try and make your aliens different and try and explore culture but when it feels like you're judging your current culture as opposed to creating a new culture I go a bit um and once again I and I think that's the face I was making but I I really think it could have been done well if someone else adapted I think once again the author could he couldn't let go his work and so I think you can't if you can't let go of your work and and let someone else um pull it apart and then put it back together again um that really is is the key to a good adaption and know you look

52:36 at all all the best movies um it's you're very hard pressed to find a good movie that's been adapted by the writer all all good writers know that it's a different form it's a different genre let someone else do it and so if you if you're going from a book to an audio a book to a movie a book to a film you really need to be able to let your work go and hand it over to someone you trust and then let them go for it and said you it's very very rare that any any book author can actually transpose it to any other genre and make it work well and as I said I think that's I think that's what it falls this to me is probably the weakest story in the whole season there might be another one which is equally weak which we will come to at some point in the future I think there's one that's a slightly weaker actually is that you

53:24 think about dragon's Roth dragon's Roth yeah yeah yeah maybe that's a no has been turned into one CD which is really yes yes that is pretty severe that is that is severe cutting um I do I'm amused by the fact that to get the Doctor Who fans in Gary and well the big finisher decided they're going to cast Doctor Who Um alumni in all these and so you had Nicholas CT in the first one Lisa bman and Sophie alred in this one um I can't say oh so anaka yeah Sophie and anak in this one I I I'm not 100% convinced that once again with the casting with Sophie I don't think she oh there was a directing sorry Gary I don't think Sophie really

54:11 Carri enough Menace that she needed to carry um but maybe it's because I just think Sophie's too lovely but to me she she she liked a bit of the Menace that she needed to have and um yeah it it kind of me both with Nicholas anakah and in these two audios that they were kind of phoning in the performances I'm I'm not sure they were convinced I mean at this stage big fitsh was an unknown company nothing's been released no one knows is it's going to work this going to be popular and it probably felt a bit like a garage company and just fan-made stuff and to me it kind of feels like Sophie Anica and Nicholas are all acting like it's fanmade audio not professional audio

54:56 because they will all come back and do stunning jobs later on but it I kind of wonder whether they actually believed this was real or was it was it just you know we're filming in a fan garage and yeah we're not being paid much and and they're just thring in performances did you feel their performances really because to me most the other cast were so much better Lisa Bowman outshines all of them I think but is that am I being too harsh I was thinking about this with with Sophie as well there were there were times when I thought she wasn't being menacing enough but then I thought oh no she's got it there so there were like moments where she would get it but then sometimes not um but I never really

55:42 thought about it too much but now that you mention it I can recognize a little bit of it there I really wasn't paying too much attention to the character that anakah was playing I was mainly just Bedazzled by her voice it wasn't too much later that she'd come back was it um she she uh it was in storm warning was she as um when did she first play Charlie's mother is it storm warning no it's it's I think it's the second season she comes as Char it may not even be just a great she plays Charlie's mother and there has a few other roles she she comes back first with in the clutch in the as a lizard is the first time she actually appears with with yeah with a voice you kind recognizes she's playing yeah um oh the sand I think the show's called they're all lizards the

56:28 Sandman that's her first that's her first time she comes back there I mean her best performance at companion Chronicles she she does some amazing companion Chronicles as yeah I might be wrong and and you sopie would hit me for saying this um but I do kind of wonder whether they hadn't really been taking it seriously I mean I know how much prep sophy does on a script now a story that she's so well prepared when she goes to the studio it didn't f feel to me like she' done the prep maybe she hadn't got the script before she turned up maybe yeah maybe yeah I don't know but when you compare I think you know Steph fuel's performance you know I think Steven Fuel and well let's talk about that let's talk about Steven Fuel and Lisa what how do you think because he he's got a pivotal role over the over

57:15 the first few seasons of Benny um what did you think of their chemistry in this one brilliant like from the word go they are just so good Steven fuel is such a talent an actor another one who you s think why on Earth didn't have have a bigger career um he the way he and Lisa play with each other straight away her cynicism her she's burnt by him she's hurt by but he's obviously still so in love with her and and she kind of really is too oh yes she's she still is in love with him too but she's been burnt by him too many times and he just can't help but cause problems so I think you just get their characters established straight away so quickly and clearly and the two of them

58:01 just played so well they've got such emotional gravitas together he you can you can hear the pain in his voice as he as he tries to address what's going on and his foolishness you can hear that she's bitter and cranky and even how she have played against Sophie too in terms of a level of jealousy that she plays the the two of them give such amazing performances and are so good together I mean we yeah we won't spoil what happened happens to him you know get get the future season ter of what happens to Jason in the end but yeah he's he's an amazing character and yeah I just feel in love with Steven's performance um and say it's just yeah I think B Nicholas Peg um both of them there is so much really fantastic acting happening and then there's acting that's not quite so good and some

58:48 characterization that's not so strong so this doesn't work as a full unit so that's I think it's it's it's let down because it's so many bits of Amazement but some bu don't work can I give you another real positive that I had forgotten about completely the sound Harvey summer sound design I really enjoyed that it was it was really nicely layered but there was one part that I really enjoyed and that was the music that he had going underneath um Benny reading her diary entries I love that piece of music um I could I just wish that was available in like a 60-minute thing take that to my massage uh and and had listen to that while I'm having a massage it was it was really nice I like that every time it

59:33 came on I was like oh I should be listening to what Lisa is saying but I was listening to the music instead love that bit yeah he didn't do much of big finish he only did the sound design for three beras so this one he also do walk into Babylon and just War which are both by the way amazing sound designs and great music and Whispers of Terror which is the first I think it's the First Column Nicholas Brian story story so he was only involved with and a story that can only be made for audio that's for sure so he he was only involved very early on yeah you're right some of the music is lovely and and there there so much really good stuff in I mean Bernice's um diary entry stuff is is beautiful and the last the last entry she gives and you know just talk about Jason and reading in terms of who she is

1:00:19 in her character because they all put their their belief they wear it close to them they write write down their phrase of what they believe and as she does that it's it is just a beautiful ending I mean it almost makes me want to tear up so there are some really really strong stuff in this and some great stuff it's just needed another attack I think it had me wondering whether Matt was uh writing those di entries into his adaptation to um to to use his Exposition or whether they were actually from from the book it sounds like something that could probably be in a book as well so oh I'm sure I'm sure that's the book yeah and as I say I really I mean you know one of my favorite stories of all new who is The Impossible Planet

1:01:04 in the Satan pit I think those two stories are brilliant characters it's terrifying the oud an amazing creature it's it's that has some politics in it but the politics doesn't shov down your face which is nice it and it it World build so well it's such it's such an amazing world they build and such amazing characters and you care about every death and once again so he's a brilliant writer don't don't get me wrong and he's gone on to do some amazing television writing as well so but this is this is early on in his career and yeah next time give it to Jack very good all right well if we have talked about everything we want to talk about with these stories it's probably a good time to jump into our chat with

1:01:52 Gary Russell on these two yeah indeed Gary thanks for joining us again my pleasure it's always a pleasure to be here we've been looking at uh Benny and her Origins and and how that all started um what's your memory of of Benny coming into play well so we we' got Jason and I had been to the BBC and we' pitched the idea of doing Doctor Who on audio to them and they turned us down so this is 199 end of 96 uh they turned us down and so Jason and I regrouped and said what we both wanted to do something um on audio we we just we'd fired ourselves up we thought we were going to do Doctor Who so we were in that kind of ah what can we do what can we do what can we do and I

1:02:38 don't know whether it was him or me that suggested Bernie Summerfield uh I went to Virgin and said we'd like to do Bernie Summerfield on audio they said it's fine by ask can you you need to get Paul Cornell's permission I went to Paul and said I'd like to do bonies on audio he said that's fine but me you need to get virgin's permission I thought this works beautifully everyone's happy so we did a deal um and it was Paul who suggested that we got Jack rer in to do the adaptations of the of the novel um and then all we had to do was find Al Benny um and we spent a long time casting for that lots of discussions Nick I knew was going to be directing it so he had lots of input into into that as well um and uh it was Peter Griffith

1:03:28 um fellow Australian uh who said to me one night sitting in a Pizza Express in in Baker Street in London he said J we were talking about the difficulty of casting Benny and getting it right and he said do you remember you interviewed uh Lisa Balman from survival he said in her voice she sounds like she could be Benny and I was like oh that's a really good idea so I went back to Jason and Nick both of knew Lisa uh and I said what about actually no Jason didn't Nick did cuz he done he'd been involved in I was a doctor who monster as well uh and so we said we'd audition and we auditioned I think two or three different actresses round in Nick's flat with a microphone stuck to his upright

1:04:15 vacuum cleaner um and Lisa came around and I clearly she could clearly think oh my god what have I walked into who are these mad people uh but she just uh bold us over with with what she brought to Benny in in Nick's living room uh and that was that really we we said L we'd like you to do this and she I could see in her eyes that she thought this is going to be an embarrassing afternoon this is a one-off nothing's ever going to come of this and those feelings were probably compounded by the fact that we recorded at Intergalactic Arts which was a basement off the Walworth Road um which was you know there weren't cockroaches climbing up the walls but there might as well have been it was not a not a pleasant place to record in but she realized while we were doing it that

1:05:03 me and Nick and alist lock knew what we were doing and I think that was a revelation and having Nick Courtney around helped as well um and so we recorded that first one and and it all just came together in in a better way than even I'd imagined we we just came away afterwards going yeah we're going to do more of these and she was on board she said all right but we needed to find a studio we we had to find a proper Studio we realized that because Intergalactic Arts we'd used uh back in the audio visuals days when it didn't have cockroaches climbing up the wall and and you know it was eight years earlier and was a little bit nicer um so we then Daniel Cohen who was a doctor who fan who knew us he owned a recording

1:05:48 studio um called cross town and he said why don't you come and use my place and we'll do it there and uh by by that point we got Harvey involved and he was going to do our recordings um and we went to this studio and Nick and I went to look at it and it's the most bizarre thing so it is a proper recording studio absolutely soundproofed beautiful very very plush very modern at the time it was digital we didn't use digital we we were still recording on Dat but we could have recorded on Protools if we' wanted to but we didn't um it had two recording rooms and a recording booth it had nice green room with a nice kitchen area it was everything you wanted the bizarre thing was it was inside a multistory car

1:06:33 park and it was just one of those weird things that you went to the third floor of this multistory car park and there was a door in the wall and this door led into this amazing recording studio and backing onto it from the other side of the car park was a a dry cleaners and we did think sometimes we were going to get bleed through from their machines but we never did um but always having to say to all these actors in those early bennies yeah no no no no on the phone no you're right no no it's in the car park no you have to drive up to the third floor of the car park and and we'll be waiting for you you'll see this big red door with cross town written on it and over the and then of course when we did Doctor Who that also became our home as well so had to go through that whole rigar all again um

1:07:19 but that was that was you know those the early days of Benny were were us all finding our feet um and no it isn't uh was the obvious thing to start with because it was a comedy uh and because it was the first solo Benny novel um and it was Paul it was his it was his story and and and Jack did a fantastic adaptation of it with hindsight it probably wasn't the one to launch the range with uh we probably should have launched with walking to Babylon or or beyond the sun um and gone back to doing the comedy one because I think it's very atypical I think it works as a book because you'd had Benny in all those Doctor Who novels but from an audio point of view it's quite an atypical story to launch a a run with and it's

1:08:05 very good and it's beautifully done but

…