Perspective: ‘Heavy Rains, Heavier Consequences' | 09 July, 2025

0:01 [Music] Namaskar viewers. Hello and welcome to Sunset TV. I am Tina Ja. You're watching Perspective. From the rain lashed hills of Himachal Pradesh to the submerged streets of Nagpur and thousands of miles away in the flood ravaged heart of Texas, torrential rains are leaving behind a devastating trail. This past week has been a grim showcase of how violent unrelenting weather can paralyze cities and shatter lives. In Himhal Pradesh, flash floods have swept away roads, homes and livelihoods. As of 6th July, the state has witnessed 23 flash

0:49 floods, 19 cloud burst events, and 16 landslides, claiming dozens of lives and causing large-scale damage to infrastructure and communities. In Nagpur, relentless rainfall has drowned entire neighborhoods and forced the closure of highways. And across the globe in Texas, America, it's witnessing one of its deadliest floods in a century with over 100 lives lost and more than 160 people still missing. The images are haunting, the scale staggering. These incidents across continents are a stark reminder that no geography is immune. The question is, are these just extreme weather events or is there a deeper pattern at play? Is climate change

1:34 turning floods into fastm moving unpredictable disasters? And are we doing enough to build climate resilience? To discuss some of these aspects and more on the program today, I'm pleased to welcome two distinguished guests. Miss Suruchi Badwal, director, climate change and air quality at the Energy and Resources Institute. Miss Badwal, welcome to Sensor TV. Thank you for joining us. I'm also delighted to welcome Dr. Dr. Vinot Tar professor and founding head center for Ganga river basin management and studies IIIT Kpur. Dr. Tar delighted to have you with us on this broadcast as well. Mr. Suri Badwal let me begin the program with you. What we are seeing is floods devastating regions as diverse as Himachel Pradesh, Nagpur and miles away even in Texas,

2:20 America. Is this the new normal that cities across continents are witnessing? What do these events tell us about the changing nature of extreme weather events? So it's clearly a change that we are observing in the weather patterns over the years and underlying it is the larger pattern that we talk about is the change in the climate that we observing. So the new normal that we're talking about with regards to these events are likely to continue to keep changing and the normal will keep shifting with regards to the extreme nature of events that we keep experiencing over the next many years and over decades uh you know uh that are to follow uh as the climate

3:06 conditions basically enhance. And so we have also said this in the past while we've been carrying out research in these areas that it is becoming a hotter and wetter world and therefore these incidences of heavy precipitation or flash floods or flood-like conditions or water logging is likely to increase in many parts of the world including India the Texas example that you basically gave and countries need to be prepared with more and more such events in future time period. periods. The return periods of these events have shortened over time. So a one in a 15-year flood event or a 20-year flood event is now striking you in one in a 5 year or one in a sevenyear period and therefore the

3:53 frequency and intensities both have increased world over including India. Ma'am, a related question and for better understanding of our viewers, uh what we are witnessing is flash floods in hilly regions to urban flooding in cities such as Nagpur. Can we directly link these disasters only to climate change or are there other compounding factors at play as well? Well, there there are other compounding factors, but first and foremost, it you know, the attribution does go to the uh weather conditions and the climate because the kind of rainfall that you're experiencing in these regions is unusual. It's unusual from the normal that that particular location or region basically experiences or has experienced in the past. So being able to handle

4:40 that amount and quantum of rain and water at a given place and time which the place is not used to is unusual and therefore it becomes unmanageable. So that is the first and foremost factor. Of course it's heavy precipitation the location region is not used to basically experiencing that kind of rainfall and therefore the system collapses. Now the other compounding factors you know which kind of you know uh aggravate the situation are to do with our own you know uh management practices. What do we have in place to be able to deal with the situation? How is our in infrastructure situated? Uh you know can it absorb the kind of quantum uh you know uh of uh risk that we are talking about and the answer is no. Do we have

5:27 adequate drainage seage systems in place to be able to drain the excess water out if we were to basically face a situation where you have such amount of unusual rains? Uh the answer is no. We are not equipped with our systems, our infrastructure to be able to cushion the these kind of risks because they are not structured and built according to these risks. So therefore what modifications are needed in these systems need to be thought about and uh your cities need to be planned accordingly. your mountains and your river systems need to be gauged accordingly to be able to put the adequate uh risk resilience uh uh you know requirements uh uh both structural and nonstructural in place. Sure. So based on uh you know various interventions that you've made and

6:12 particularly on how severely we've uh damaged the natural drainage and hydrarology is something that uh I'll get perspectives on from Dr. But before that sir, given your experience and your work on river basin and water systems, how do you interpret the increasing frequency of floods and cloud bursts not just in India but across the world? Well, I think I would like to not blame as much as for the climate change to be very frank. Okay, because if you really look at the analysis of the data, the these kind of intensities uh of rainfall have occurred in the past. In fact, if you uh even see the

6:58 reports, what we say is this has occurred 30 years back. This has occurred 15 years back. It means it is not something that we are talking about something very unusual. Even in Delhi 2 years back, we had unusual floods. But there also we said no this kind of rainfall did occur uh 30 years back or 15 years back or whatever right. So these kind of landslides, this kind of cloud burst in Himanchel if you look at the last 100 years of hydraological cycle they do occur such kind of events that were but what is happening now is the damage is more our resilience is less right and that is because we have

7:44 changed the kind of land use and land cover uh at various places as a result of that the relationship between rainfall and runoff has changed, right? So the runoff becomes much faster. Okay. And that creates the same thing in the cities. Uh there is no scope for drainage. There is no scope for that water getting out into the rivers and the reservoirs or the lakes either because we have created highways and we are not provided enough waterways uh for that. And this is most of the urban floodings that you see is all as a result of unplanned kind of development that we take place. Uh the highways and roads that we make,

8:31 flyovers that we make, we do not keep enough consideration to how the water will drain out from these kind of things. Added to that is we have changed the green cover uh and the places where the water used to percolate down into the groundwater. Now those places we have converted into concrete presses are the uh tar places right and where the runoff is very very fast and that is what in my opinion is creating much more. So we need to do much better planning uh of our cities and towns in terms of drainage and the madam also mentioned uh we have not done enough uh given enough consideration to planning the drainage uh from the cities. So in

9:19 my opinion we we are responsible for uh the the damage that we are facing uh and yes I'm not denying completely that there is no uh climate change or uh I agree with madam to some extent that the frequencies have increased uh but I'm not very sure about the intensities really have become so high uh that the problems are more because of the increase in intensity yes we are facing more frequent of these events that's a different thing but much of these things I think we need to blame to our our developmental process and the kind of planning uh that we are doing the kind of infrastructure that we are building the population density that is there

10:04 within a particular geography mostly in the urban centers the damage we see is much more absolutely so in the wake of such disasters and the kind of inundations that we are seeing particularly in urban centers as uh what are the strategies that we are adopting given uh the limited resources but also the huge population is something that I'll come back to you Dr. But uh let me also get in Miss Bhbal's perspective on the the very important point that you made that it's not that perhaps nature and climate change is not as much to blame as is unregulated construction concretization that we are seeing particularly and deforest deforestation. Uh Miss Pval, do you think that all of these aspects are turning even the moderate rainfall into

10:51 major disasters today and especially in the urban areas? something that we're witnessing in a city like Nagpur. So well a situation with regards to the development aspects and uh systems in place etc definitely aggravate the situation as I was saying earlier but but I still stick to the argument that the kind of rainfall that is basically being observed is unusual. I'm just giving you examples and figures out there. For example, the Mumbai floods that we have been experiencing over the years and going back to 2005. Mumbai experiences nearly around 2,000 to 2200 mm rainfall in 4 months across the year. And the rainfall that we experienced in

11:37 a single day was 50% of that amount in one single day not spread across the four four months. Can the city absorb that kind of a shock of 50% of the rainfall of the entire season falling in one or two days of the month rather than spread across the season and that is the shock we are talking about the intensity with which the rains are falling in different parts of the country and therefore no region would be able to basically absorb that kind of a shock until your systems are equipped to handle those shocks. Of course, what further aggravates the situation are encroachment of areas uh lack of proper drainage seage systems to be able to absorb these shocks uh which we are basically experiencing now and so the climate factor does come in there when

12:23 we talk about these extreme nature of rainfall that is striking different parts of the world including our country to be better prepared with you know our management systems to be able to deal with it. So that what is in place every state today has a state action plan on climate change which tries to look at what the risks are with regards to these factors and what needs to be done across different sectors including the development aspects of it to be able to absorb these kind of shifts. While these documents have been prepared and have been in place for the last 10 15 years that states have prepared. I think what is lacking is the uh implementation of those actions on the ground. Uh possibly it's lack of you know both technical and

13:09 financial resources that are available to the states and the local authorities to be able to take these interventions forward effectively to be able to make a difference to reduce the related risks that we talking about. So we do have things in place. We do have documentation in place. But what we lack is possibly taking those actions forward on the ground to be able to make a difference. So uh a and I think that is where the government and the administration needs to focus on to see what we can do. Uh uh for instance in the case of Mumbai when we when we had provided information to the state 15 years back that the Konkan region is going to receive more than 20% or 30% of the rainfall it is used to experiencing in the past. uh maybe the state needs to plan for it because Konkan is already a

13:54 surplus rainfall receiving region. What can the state government do with regards to it? We had provided suggestions but did the state uh uh you know implement them? The answer is we still do not have an answer to the implementation process that governments have. We had asked and requested them to increase their you know the the their drainage structures uh into the sea so that the water uh you know can be drained out of the city and is into the sea. Uh we had given them other advice with regards to uh you know development of water grids where the surplus water can be transferred to the uh uh to other parts of the state which are actually water scarce. So the Vidharba and the Maratwadada regions for instance where water basically you know they have a deficit of uh rainfall and

14:41 it's not uh equally comparable to what they receive in uh the Conan region and if there is going to be a surplus in the Conan what kind of planning can we do basically to divert the water from a water surplus region to a water scarce region and those are the kind of things we need to deliberate on and think about and possibly implement uh to be able to make a difference and reduce the overall impact and the risk that we seeing on the ground certainly. So uh Dr. Tar in the wake of factors which are uh in the first place leading to to these disasters but there are also factors which are compounding uh the scale and severity of these disasters. The question uh that that we face today is how do we strike a balance between development and environment safety and I if you'll uh talk from a

15:26 national point of view is our national strategy also our state plans uh uh are we rethinking on how to build cities how to build urban uh centers especially in the fragile ecosystems. I think I think what is possible is uh to take actions at the urban center levels. I think this is where we need to focus on while of course uh uh the interconnecting uh the rivers networking rivers is a very larger issue. Uh I think I would like to go for uh first interconnecting the water bodies at the local scale. Okay. Like for example within the city itself are we in a

16:13 position to move water from one place to the other place. I think first priority should be to the extent possible do it by gravity. In fact in short what what we say is in in Hindi it is much easier said I think it is this kind of strategy at the local scale and I think this earlier the cities used to do that but because of the concretization because of the removal of green colors uh green cover because of the flyovers and other things. Uh we we we have lost that kind of connection and that is the reason why

16:59 most of the water bodies in the city uh just after the monsoon you see them dry. I think our planning should be such that they remain full with uh water all the time and that will actually increase the water security as well. So the first thing that we need to do is yes while we can talk at the national level and the state level interconnecting water transporting water over long distances that that's a very expensive affair uh in my opinion it is not so much environment friendly but what we can certainly do is at the local scale right so can we ensure that all our water bodies receive the water uh and they are full uh every year can we recirculate

17:45 the waste water for the remaining. So what we call it as we need to talk about what we normally refer to as 33035 plan. Okay. So 335 uh 303 35 plan is 330 days our situation is very different. 35 days it is 35 days we have too much of water and 330 days we have all waste water circulating around us. Okay. So the first action that we need to make sure that the rainwater and the waste water is separated. So most of the natural drains we have converted them unfortunately into a combined se. So we need to make sure that situation is changed. So I think the action feasible action uh is is possible only at the

18:31 local scale. So something like urban river management plan something like at district level what is the river management plan? Are we in a position to ensure that all our local water bodies uh bonds reservoirs or even the amut server that we are talking about are the new water bodies that we are making uh you know is it possible to ensure that there is enough supply and when we have the rains that water is circulated within the system right so if you have small ads they can feed into larger ads so first first I think that is more feasible if you can go it and this is that we are recommending and national mission for clean Ganga is very actively working on developing what we call it as urban river management plan are planning

19:18 at the district level I think that's a workable geographical unit that we have uh where we can plan for the district and within the district urban issues are different and the rural issues are different so I think if we go systematically that is something which is doable of course that does not mean we should not be looking at a national picture or a picture that of course is there but something within our resources that is possible and that will give direct benefit to the people uh because ultimately uh the money has to come the resources have to come the resources will come only when people start utilizing the getting the benefits out of it. Yes. And particularly for the cities when people see that their properties are saved they are saved from water flooding then they will not mind

20:05 paying taxes and other things. I think this is what since we have not been able to demonstrate that I think we also face the research crunch. Uh Dr. Tar a related question and since we are talking about extreme weather events how it's not just a climate crisis it's also a planning and preparedness crisis. So in in the wake of that if I could ask you uh given our national strategies you spoke about uh the state level plans as well are we in investing enough in scientific river basin and watershed planning or are we still responding to disasters more reactively rather than proactively to avert or perhaps lessen the risk? Well, by and large, yes, I would say what you're saying is right now we are

20:50 reactive mode. Okay. But there is enough sensitization and at the highest level uh if you look at our prime minister, he he keeps talking about these issues and he has made this as a national agenda that we should be having river centric planning. Okay, river should feed into our GDP. Water bodies should feed into our GDP. I think that is percolating and particularly if I can say in the state of Uttar Pradesh we have taken a drive to make sure all small rivers uh are are regenerated small water bodies are there there is a mapping that is going on for all the water bodies at the state level all small small rivers and I'm sure you have heard in monkey prime minister

21:36 himself has given examples of how small small rivers have been regenerated now what is missing is sustaining those efforts. Sustaining those efforts and these do require uh and we have several programs like for example we need to integrate several programs into one river centric or water centric uh issues like we have Mandrea like we have a jalji mission we have national mission for clean yanga you know nami yanga program and similar programs are started for other rivers as well in the country. So I think there is a sensitization that is happening but I think in action we are still little slow but I hope it will pick up. I hope it will pick up and it

22:21 should pick up. Let let's hope and let let me also get in Mr. Rashidwa's thoughts on uh what are we doing to build a climate resilient future? uh uh madwal are we treating climate resilience with the same urgency as we are uh treating the other critical sectors which will lead us to becoming a vixid bharat by 2047 and I ask you this because India is is in a very vulnerable geographical uh situation and we are quite prone of prone to a lot of these disasters and therefore we need to be prepared at all levels not just we we because as I said earlier it's not just a climate crisis is it's it's a crisis at the planning and also at the preparedness levels. So we are a developing country and we

23:07 already have a development deficit that we see uh when we talk about our various programs and schemes and how they are rolled out and how they reach the population uh down below. uh uh and if we were not to consider the impacts of these events and include that in our planning, I think we would be way below the kind of uh development aspirations we have for 2047 with regards to where we would be able to reach with the various schemes and programs that are basically introduced. Therefore, each of our development programs and plans need to integrate the climate risk resilience component within them as they are being implemented on the ground. So that while

23:54 you're basically taking you know different program schemes which may benefit maybe the communities it's the farming community the fishermen or uh rural communities urban communities in the context of you know uh you know various benefits that are basically being considered. I think they all need to be screened through a climate lens to be able to see what are the risks and geographically they are different. So you can't basically use a one kind of a you know kind of a a stop shop kind of a model for the entire country. So it needs to be seen uh uh differentially across different geographies of the country. What are the risks that are pertaining the climate risks that are going to pertain physical risk context

24:41 because of climate and that may get aggravated and what kind of schemes and programs are being rolled out so that you know you can integrate the risk resilience agenda with regards to climate within the scope of those schemes and uh you know because there's a big issue that we basically face where is the finance for the investments going to come if there is going to be you know an additional requirement with regards to enhance enhancing the implementation of a certain scheme program etc on the ground. I think we need to start with the existing programs and the allocations within the existing programs and schemes and see where we can integrate and look at what the additionality components are with regards to you know because of the additional risk we are talking about because the climate that may basically you know ensue uh that the government

25:27 then needs to consider and then basically look for sources of financing and funding for those investments so that the implementation can happen on the ground. Absolutely. a lot that we can do perhaps what we've discussed so far is maybe you know there are isolated incidents that we discussed but as I said in the beginning the distress is uh is of the same nature across cities be it in India or be it in America and and here the problem may be local but the warning is global something that we've discussed with both our guests uh the nature and the climate is changing much faster than our systems can respond so our preparedness has to be at multiple levels. We are working on that. But as both our guests suggested, there's a lot more that we can do and perhaps it's

26:12 time to switch from that reactive mode to a more proactive mode wherein we can avert the risks and reduce loss uh loss of lives and damage to property as well in the times to come. Uh time allows me to take up only that much on the program today. Thank you once again to both my guests for joining me on the program, sharing your thoughts, your views with us and our viewers on this very pertinent topic. And to you viewers, thank you very much for your time as well. [Music]