Raza Rumi on Pakistan's Security Dilemma, Politics & India-Pak History | Yasir & Osama | WTI Talks

0:00 The law of 1956 was yet to be implemented when Mashallah Ayub Khan sahab said that as soon as we got independence, we died or the country disintegrated; people of his party said that I think such things used to happen even earlier, those kind of politicians also used to talk less in letters, I have heard that Bhatto sahab also used to call Ayub Khan daddy, in 1999 our Chief Executive General Musharraf sahab himself was Syed, he also used to come like you, this type of chance is more interesting, do you think was Pakistan testing to be a security state or was it made one. There is a problem of some defect in my construction. So this issue became such in the formation of Pakistan that we made it a case of penal insecurity. We

0:47 have to become a human security state. There is no need to become a security state. Now, will it be Shia's Islam or Sunni's Islam? Do you think this was orchestrated before creation, or was it planted later? Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah repeatedly said that Pakistan will not be a theocratic state. Did it happen that India went on a different part and Pakistan went on a different pathway. Quaid-e-Azam could not remain in power even for a year. Governor General Guide Leader is very important. In contrast to this, in India the politicians gave policies and direction. Nehru remained the Prime Minister till 1960. What reforms? What set of reforms are required to actually make the decracy better? Recruitment is the biggest driver of

1:35 efficiency and effective outcomes. By the way, we should always remember that when we talk of civil services, we are not just talking about your World Times students, the CSS ones, below them, the doctors, nurses, the vaccinators, the constables, the soldiers, the patwaris standing on the road, they too are civil services, they too are running that country, running the vaccine, Assalam Walekum ji, I am your host Syed Yasir Shah, calling you Khushamdid in another episode of The WT Talks. I have here with me Syed Osama Razvi sahab and

2:22 energy economic analyst and today we are present in the presence of esteem guest, before telling you his name if I may introduce him a little bit, he is currently a distinguished lecturer at City University of New York along with this a faculty member at Cornell, editor at Friday Times, founder of Naya Daur and along with that renowned journalist of Pakistan and a historian Sir Raza Rami sahab, sir welcome to the show. Thank you so much. You are a historian, Safi. You have written many books. There has been a lot of talk about the history of Pakistan as well. So I would like to start off with the history of Pakistan sir. I would like to take your perspective on this that a lot is said about Pakistan that it is a security state. In the beginning, our foreign policy was also the

3:09 same. A Security Centered Foreign Policy. So do you think was Pakistan destined to be a security state? Or was it created? Thank you Yasir and for inviting me. Let me first explain one thing that I am not a historian because the real historians will get angry. When you listen to him, you know, he says that these common writers are not historians. I am very happy with the restoration. I am definitely a history teacher and look at the question you have asked, you have raised a very important question because even today if we look at the biggest issue of Pakistan, whether the identity and strength of the Pakistani state is a state that serves the people or is it

3:56 just a security state which is always prepared to face whatever threats there are from outside and whatever happens inside can happen. So look, you have talked about its basis, its origins. Pakistan was formed in 1947 itself, hence the threat to India was present from that time itself. If you pick up the statements of that time, now it is a very old thing, then it was said in India that Pakistan will not survive. This is an artificial state. It does n't have any vessel. There are two wings. 1000 miles is in between. One is Eastern Pakistan. There is a Maghribi Pakistan. He must not go there. These are the statements of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel. Even Pandit Nehru ji has made statements about it. Similarly, he used to say that we will not be able to see it, it will not work.

4:43 So an insecurity existed in the foundation of Pakistan at that time. The second problem that arises is that when this happens and when you create a new nation state, you have to define yourself. Now at that time, in my opinion, a small mistake occurred and if you study every nation state in the world, then every nation state creates its own statement, its own date, its own identity. America has also made it like this. India has also made it to some extent. Now these days work is going on on another project regarding the ancient Hindus and their roots are also imaginary things. Who knows whether that mythology is true or wrong. Modi ji says that the world's first plastic surgery was done on Ganesha because he is half elephant and half

5:28 human. Whatever, all these kinds of things are about mythologies. There is a book, Imagine, by Benedict Anderson and Imagine Communities, basically its name is by a professor from Cornell, the name of which is coming to my mind. He also says that how a nation- state is formed. So this happened in Pakistan too. When it was being made in Pakistan, when we said that we have to make our own branch, then our founding fathers of that time or you can say the bureaucracy, whoever you train here, they said that we are everything that India is not. So, we created our identity ourselves in the name of India. So, that is why it is said that he is a Mishra, that one face is responsible for the defect. There

6:14 is a possibility of one defect in my construction. So this issue became such during the formation of Pakistan that we made it a case of penal insecurity and then as you know wars happened. Just in 2025, there has been a skirmish in our last fourth fifth battle, whatever takes his name, it is a issue. But must we always be like this ? not at all. Because nowadays the communities in the world that are making progress, our neighbor China, India too has made progress way ahead, they are giving priority to their goals and their people, we will have to become a human security state, I will not have to become a security state, Sir, before coming to the current situation, I would like to

7:00 throw some light on one more historical perspective, Sir, secular state or religious state, a big debate takes place on this, well Pakistan was a secular state and religious state. Let's become a religious state. Now, will it be Shia's Islam or Sunni's Islam? This was a great debate that erupted sir. These debates erupted inside Pakistan. Do you think this was orchestrated before Creation, or was it planted later? Sir? Look, this, I mean, is a very important question and I am glad you have raised it because people often say, it is enough, so let it go now. is not the case. Even today we are facing so many things, there are different groups who think that Pakistan should be like this, it should be like that. Look, Pakistan was never supposed to be a religious state, Yasir, let me

7:48 tell you that Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, who created Pakistan, is our leader and is also an exemplary personality for us. He repeatedly said that Pakistan will not be a theocratic state. He said this in an interview to Radio Australia , he said this in an interview to Radio Canada, he told this to the American news agencies etc. etc., he had said this very clearly. Yes, they used our religious identity for the Pakistani identity, but wasn't that just to create a theocratic state ? No. Because like the State of Iran or Saudi Arabia, it is not Pakistan. Still not there. We tried so hard to spoil its appearance,

8:35 sometimes we did this, sometimes that, changed the law, broke it, abrogated it. So at that time, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan, two of ours and many other people were also involved in it. These were modern Muslims of Aligarh University. He was educated. In science, philosophy, political science, Maghribi education, they used to wear suit type clothes, were clean shaven. Ok? Used to do other things also. I cannot mention them on the podcast because otherwise it will be closed to you. But the thing is that these were modern Muslims. He used to say, yes we are Muslims. We have a different identity from the majority. And when the majority of Pakistan is saved and the British leave, then our rights will be secured. Which rights? These rights are not just religious rights, because look,

9:22 it is not just that mosques still exist in India, azaan is given there, the talks were about political rights, social rights, cultural rights, identity, so these were the issues, whatever is happening with the Muslims in India today, many people raise the question that our founding fathers were on the right line because this is also happening today, secondly I want to conclude this, on 11 August 1947, in the speech given by Quaid-e-Azam in the Constituent Assembly, you know that in very clear words he presented the blueprint of a new state. Now people say that first the Quaid-e-Azam said this in 1940, he said this at such and such a place, later he said this, and yes, all that was taken out in the court, now the thing is that he was a politician

10:10 who was garnering votes on the Muslim identity, was supporting the demand for Pakistan, hence he was giving an Islamic touch as well, okay, which people understand these days, but in 1947 on 11th August, he was the Head of the State's first policy speech, what did he say in that that you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosque. He said that whatever you are, your religious identity will not matter to the state. Whatever you are, you are equal. Whether you are a Hindu, Muslim, Christian , whatever you are or whether you believe in something, it is not the concern of the state. He did not use the word secular. This is used by other people which is against him. And its translation was posted here. Miss interpretation. Mr. Lie, Fake News

10:57 as we call it today. Fake news was spread in such a manner for 70 years that now many of our youth or other people say that being secular is against Allah, it is against religion, it has become an insult. No, secular means that the state will not have any religion of its own. That glory of all will give equality to everyone. Anyone can be anything. But that principal unfortunately disappeared. Quaid- e-Azam got relief. After that, their leaders who became successful said that we have to use religion. But there was a compulsion at that time also. We have earlier mentioned nation building and building of a nation state. Now East and West Pakistan were two separate nations. What is Bangladesh today was earlier East

11:42 Pakistan. Their language is different and their minds are different. The women there used to wear sarees and wear bindi. Rabindra used to sing music. Here you know that in Punjab there is Khyber Pakhtoon Khaw which was earlier NWFP, in Sindh they have a completely different culture and civilization, now how to connect them, therefore again the bureaucracy of that time played a very important role, they said that the common connection here is Islam and giving importance to that can also be used, there is no problem in it, but you should not make the status of the state religious, this mistake they have made over the years that today we have reached a point that there are some communities that there is discrimination against them. Non-Muslims feel unsafe. And that

12:28 we have created such a Malguba that there is a Shariat Court, there is a Supreme Court and there are Jirga as well. You just saw that such a dark incident happened in Balch, it happens every day somewhere or the other in Pakistan. That got published in a media. The video went viral because of the age of the video. But otherwise all these parallel systems are running. So our problem is also that our so called structure, legal judicial structure is not uniform. Right. Sir, Osama, I too while building up your discussion, Sir, one very good thing that you told Sir is the distinction of us versus them which Carl Smith also said, it goes way back from 1947, but Sir the second point, which is also a personal point of interest for me. But I was

13:14 reading Ayesha Jalal's point of view and you have quoted her quite often and also read her of course. Sir, his book is Democracy Versus Authoritarianism in South Asia, in it he talks about diverging pathways, I mean, I would be from a political economy angle and it is a very interesting thing for listeners to know what happened in the same countries in terms of climate, if you look at geography as well, I mean, we share a geography subcontinent, did it happen that India went on a different pathway and Pakistan went on a different pathway, see, there are a lot of things, I mean, books have been written on this, essays have been written. So it will be difficult in two-three minutes but I will sum it up. Look, the first thing is that we had also

14:01 mentioned earlier that Quaid-e-Azam could not remain in power for even a year, Governor General Guide Leader is very important. Especially the new nation that is being formed. See, Pakistan was also called a state without a nation. Ok? So nation state and that is why it had to be created. So the direction of Quaid-e-Azam was gone and for the number of years he was there which is less than a year, half of that time he was ill, the last months of his life were spent in pilgrimage, what rules did he have to make, now the people who were here, about whom Quaid-e-Azam himself used to call them counterfeit coins, this is very famous, right, you must have read this thing, I and you also teach them, so these things, he himself used to say it and this was the issue because this movement of Pakistan was created at the very last minute and

14:49 a bad thing was created by adding from here and there. Because if you remember, when the elections were held in 1935, the Muslim League had lost very badly. It was a total defeat. This is your content. And then when the Lahore Resolution was presented in 1940, from then onwards this whole mobile mobilization started and some land owners also came. Industrialists also came. People from Aligarh were already included. Well now it became a movement of Muslim League but it was not a party. This is the reason that when the first election was held in East Pakistan, Muslim League lost very badly because it did not have any political organization. So when there was a political organization, you can understand it like this, there was a vacuum here which was filled by the bureaucracy of Pakistan, the

15:38 bureaucracy of the British. In India, politicians gave policy and direction. Nehru, who was Prime Minister till the 1960s, was the first continuity till the early 1960s. There was a view, there was something good and bad. Today, he is being criticized a lot in India. But Nehru created an industrial base, got laws made, fixed the matters of provinces and Markaz. The language issue which had happened with Bengalis here was also resolved. The same issues had happened in India as well. You said that the DNA is the same, actually 97%. Now studies show that the DNA of Indian and Pakistan is 97% the same. So, one of them is this. It was the first thing. The second thing was constitution making. Constitution making is also a collective will of the society or nation. Here you

16:25 know that it has not been made. The first law was made in 56. It is in the knowledge of all of you. Yes. And the implementation of the law of 1956 was just about to begin when MashaAllah Ayub Khan Sahib said that it is over. Then he made a law according to his own choice in 1862. Then after that, somewhere after 70, the first election in Pakistan was held in 1970, a fair election, after 20, how many years have passed, 27 years and something like that, yes 30 years, that means you did not even hold the first election, so now how did you put a country on a democratic or inclusive track because here the rule was of civil service, this is the reason why bureaucracy and CSS are so popular in Pakistan because it has come in the DNA of all of us now, right, and it is going on till now, it is going on till now, it is very attractive in India too,

17:13 these options used to be IICS IAS, yes yes yes, in India it is still considered very prestigious, but there are other things in India as well, private sector, corporate sector, trading, I mean a lot of things, it is happening here slowly but it is still there because that is the imagination of the people, from 1940 to 60, the rule of bureaucracy was there, the word CSP is still used, although CSP He too has been banned. It was written in the newspapers that her husband is a CSP officer. His father was a CSP officer. Although it is factually incorrect but that is coming, that is a cultural issue. So when bureaucracy ruled, you know the problem with bureaucracy is that it is a small group. He works under his own interests. Is it okay ? Your own promotion, your own transfer, is the

18:00 principle of power maximization. After that our military brothers came into it, in 1958, they did something, Ayub Khan, Field Marshal Ayub Khan, October is very famous, he names it the October Revolution. Now when he came, he said, okay Babu, please fix these CSPS, now we will be able to do things. So in the era of Aybhista Ayub Khan, it happened that many more things happened, but gradually, the General Service came down a little bit and the generals of Generals came up. Now since these two are here, I don't have any inherited issues with them. They are all good people. Bureaucrats come after a lot of training and a lot of hard work and then they get trained from World Times.

18:45 So, you do a very good job. But are they representatives of the public? No, is he the flag bearer of public aspirations ? No. So who was the representative of the Pakistanis? Their representatives were not even in charge of the policy. This is the reason why they followed two different paths. And the last thing, the last thing is emphasis on education. In India, Nehru ji laid the foundation of IITs there. Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was the first Education Minister. A massive effort was made by India there. Illiteracy was very high in India but it changed and today all over the world they say that the CEO of Coke is Indian, so and so CEO,

19:30 all of them have come to the world stage after studying from these IITs and these institutions, we have gone and created LAMS which has come after I don't know how many decades and that too is not accessible to everyone because it is very expensive, well sir this is very and this matter of bureaucracy, just now again towards the end, I will definitely ask you on this because nowadays it is a very well invited debate that is going on. Another question Sir, this colonial legacy in the theme of history itself, it is a variant theme Sir. And from one point of view, it can also be said that most of the issues of today's developing countries or the Global South, which you can trace back to their origin, are still because of the same colonial issues. So much so that the way our bodies store fat, the way females come, all this is related to epigenetics.

20:16 In the case of Pakistan and India once again you content the idea that the colonial legacy was very much ingrained from the very beginning. There was a vacuum. Ok. But what role did that colonial legacy play in shaping the future of both of them? See, in Pakistan, the colonial legacy happened because their people were of a very high standard, they were the trend of the colonialists, they were ICS officers, they then became CSP overnight, after that the people they recruited were in the same mindset, which was the colonial mindset that people had to be ruled over. People have to be controlled. When the word law and order comes, it does

21:03 not mean that your safety will increase. May your home be safe, may your belongings be safe, may your children be safe. What happens is that a stick is used to warn people that if anyone comes out of his house and shows his performance here, then he should be beaten with a whip or put in jail. So the respect that we have in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, it is obviously thousands of years old. Now connect with Indus Valley. But our immediate past is the colonial past and it has left deep scars on all three origins and those scars are there even today in our society, our state, our thinking, our concerns, it is entrained in the words you used and I will give you two or three

21:49 examples of that. Look, at this time there is a police law in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Police Order 1861. The police is such an important institution. You can look at the surveys of all three originators regarding people 's complaints. They keep it on top that there are maximum complaints against the police. Because the police are useless. She tortures me. She indulges in extortion and corruption. It does not protect people. Alakaar becomes a tool of the rich and powerful people. Why? Because, their credibility has been built like this for the colonial police and you can look at the civil service. Well, variations have come in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Many changes have come in Pakistan after the reforms of 74,

22:36 you know groups etc. The provincial services have also improved a bit, relatively speaking, but the basic infrastructure which was called the steel frame, is running all the three fundamentals, in India it is very strong, much more than in Pakistan, we forget, and in fact in India also if you read their economic thinkers, Osama, now if you read your content, then you will see that they often call bureaucracy an embedment, they say that this steel frame of the Raj is the biggest obstacle in the economic take-off of India, because in terms of licenses and bureaucratic red tape etc., in Pakistan also you face bureaucracy at every step. Look, if you want to start a small business at a micro level in some small town, I don't know whether you are from Lahore or

23:22 from somewhere else. But if you want to set up a small business. You will have to take 16-17 permissions. We will get the certificate from Ballia. We will go to him, we will go to the tax department, we will go to the police, we will go to such and such food department. There are bribes and bribes everywhere. By the time you set up your business, you have become bankrupt. You will say that this was a very bad idea. I am going to Greece by boat. Is it okay? This is what is happening in Pakistan. So, I gave you an example of how these are not pro people. He was thinking about it. That is why there is a whole debate on decolonization. Look, there will be physical decolonization, not just the British left and went back. But the mental attitudinal

24:09 structure decolonization is a pending project. That is pending in India too. That is pending in Pakistan too. And actually my thesis is that we are living in this continuum. The colonial structures and many of our issues, the rise of Hindutva in India, for example, where did this definition of Hindu and Muslim come from? The British conducted the first census in the year 1861. Before that there was no senses at all. There used to be estimates. So he said yes it would make sense. In that he asked people to identify because the British had come with the Abrahamic Christian legacy. So he said, okay now Hinduism is not a unified code. Like we have Islam or Zoroastrianism or Christianity. Hinduism

24:58 actually is a big spread out movement which is localized. There is someone else in Bengal who looks like him. There is a different face in the South. There is a different face in the North. Punjab has a different face. There are different gods and goddesses. This is their local Mashrat. But he said that we were not able to understand those who had come, the brave English brother. He said that you should identify yourself as Muslim, Hindu, or whoever and from there this series of mischief started. Even Hinduism the term is a colonial invention you will not find Hinduism anywhere before the 19th century. Right? So yes. So now from there you can see that the whole of India is behind him at this time. Who made all that? That was a

25:43 colonial perception of Indian multiple faiths and diverse faiths. Today he has become a problem not only in India. It has become a huge problem between India and Pakistan. The bias for wars is being created. Is it okay? So this is the toxic legacy of colonialism that you are talking about. Nice. Okay sir, following this you talked about the history of Pakistan sir. We saw that these are big floss sir. Sir Marshall losses are also occurring repeatedly. Yes. Ok sir. Democracy has also been eroded to a great extent and civil-military relations have been deteriorating. But after 2008 Sir, do you think that in the age of today, after 2008, are any such trust building measures being taken for civilian supremacy or is it still difficult to say anything about it. See again a very interesting question.

26:31 If you look at the history of Pakistan, there is a constant oscillation and there is tension in between. The aspirations of the people are democratic. Inclusion is for voice. Movements have taken place in every era. But the Mashra and Pitkal system is authoritarian. Is it okay? That means you want to have a voice. They want Osama to know that his voice should be heard and should be spoken. But Mashra 's stance is strictly authoritarian. That is, what do we say about our home and family unit ? In the patriarchal order, the father's word prevails. Is it okay? If the father is not there then the mother's word prevails. It becomes matriarchal.

27:17 Then after that you go to school. There the master beats with a stick. He says, shut up, I will break your face. Did something like this. After that Qari Sahib comes or children go to him to read Quran Sharif, that too is an authoritarian mind set and all the different units of the system, the small systems, form a society, this is what happens according to sociology, so when all the small units are authoritarian, then how can you expect that democracy will come at the top, you have to transform the system also a little, that is, there is a symbolic relationship, the system brings reforms in the system and the system changes. Then he puts more pressure on the system for democracy. It is not like that here. And there is

28:02 a cycle of 10 years. 47 to 58 is a broken democracy. One Wazir Azam is going, one is coming, one is being martyred. One is being expelled, another is being forced there. And then Mashallah starts. 58 to 68, you can see, 69, you can see. So there is a Golden Era of Ayub Khan and then after that an attempt is made for the first election. Mashallah, Sayyad was so used to living in a cage that when he got independence, he died and the country disintegrated. Ok. The first 70 elections are held. In 1971 it split into two parts. Well, after that comes a democratic era. Then martial law in 77.

28:49 77 to 88 Martial Law. 88 to 99, four governments, Nawaz Sharif, Benazir twice and who knows, five interim prime ministers out of four, nine governments have been formed, in 10 years even Trucka comes and Troika also comes, and in 99 our Chief Executive General Musharraf Sahib himself was a Syed, he also came like you, so you have a chance of becoming the President, okay then he comes to rule and nine this time from 10 to nine, after 9 years they launched a Jamhoori Tehreek. Well now who is the polytheist among these three that a movement is launched against Ayub Khan? A very big public movement is ultimately Ayub Pasmapa. Two movements were launched against Ziaul. The first movement of MID, the second movement then

29:37 comes to Benzer 86 and then ultimately his exit happened in a different way but there was a lot of pressure on him as well. Ok? Then the same thing happens with Musharraf. Now if you talk about 208 from that time, then this round starts a little opening. That's why I have a book called Fractional Path, which is actually a collection of my long essays. In that, I had argued that after 208, there was a democratic transition and a new opportunity and hope was raised that perhaps the civilian space will increase. That big 18th amendment was made in 2010, a very big one, so the new social contract was read, a new NSC award was given,

30:24 apart from this you can see many more laws etc. came and then you see that that is a 10 year amendment, so where have we reached from 2008 to 2018, what happened in 2018, you also know, Nazim also knows, so I will not repeat it much, you will get angry because in 2018, the hybrid model was again implemented in Pakistan. Earlier there was martial law. Now we are more sophisticated in the 21st century. more more what do they say? Taxes are heavy. So we said let's make a hybrid model. What the hybrid model was was that a basically charismatic populist leader was backed by the army. First keep building it. keep doing it.

31:13 He ultimately became the Prime Minister from 2011 to 2014 and in 2018. And he became the Prime Minister like this and definitely, Imran Khan has very good qualities too. But he behaved such that he said, for example, he said that people of his party said that the Army Chief is the father of the community. Now I think even earlier, those pony type politicians used to talk less about such things. Is it okay? You might have heard in letters and in public gatherings that Bhutto Sahab used to call Ayub Khan as Daddy and Sikander Miza too was kept as Abba by him. But here he said it in public. Is it okay? Abbu is the father of the community now. Then he said that ISI taps my phones. No problem, I am very honest. He should do it. Do it for my security. Although phone tapping is illegal.

31:58 For anyone regarding safety reasons, security reasons, whoever you are, the right to privacy is enshrined in the Act. End of discussion. But it was justified. Then it was also said that the Army Chief of that time said that he is very democratic. They are very good. After a year, he started abusing him continuously. So this hybrid model, after 2018, we have gone into the same reversal in Pakistan. Who is 10 years old. Now if you look at the date, it will run from 2018 to at least 2028. Look at this historical sequence, there are cycles in history. And follow civilization rise and thank you. This is what Ibn Khuldun has taught us: that cycles exist. History should be understood through cycles.

32:45 Not because of personality, not because of a current affair. You teach that though. That is your work but it should be explained through a bicycle. Is it okay ? If there is a bicycle then a bicycle is running here also. Now Hybrid Regime 2 has arrived. This will go further. Right? And then somewhere there will be tension, internal contradictions, or some pressure will be put on it, or you will reform it yourself. They will say no no it is too much and after 2028 you will see a hope that the opening will be yours. Okay Sir, towards the end I then have a question, it is a little straightforward question but the question is that Sir when we read this discussion of these authors, which is one way and the other at some point it seems that they challenge the thing that perhaps what Pakistan was to be, it was

33:32 not its proper intention, it just became whatever it was, now that it has been done my question is this Sir from a geopolitical perspective and geo- strategic perspective that is India with us or other such elements, if they are watching, then what benefit does such discussions bring? I mean, what is the benefit of discussing this? If this is the benefit of doing diagnosis, then please also tell me that if we are reading the history like this and analysing it critically, then what is that diagnosis? What is that mistake which we should not repeat again? Very well, there is an answer in your question itself. Is it okay? Look, the date is not a closed chapter. Is it okay? As people say, it is

34:18 old stuff. why are you repeating it ? The thing is that the date is continuing and even today we are alive in the date. This day today will become a date tomorrow. Is it okay? We are living in it. The three of us, you and me, are chatting. So, there is a continuous implementation of the date. This is the first thing. Secondly, what you said is that it is necessary to learn from history. And what we were mentioning earlier was that there was a problem in the construction of Pakistan and hence Pakistan was created in a very hurry. Look, this thing is to be understood because in 1940, Lahore Resolution came, which we now call Pakistan Resolution, its name was Lahore Karadad, so Karadad is

35:05 Lahore, after that an idea came up, against that idea, there was Indian National Congress Company, in 1880, 85, 1885, yes since when they were engaged and they were struggling, our Muslim League, which created Pakistan, did not have any such intention. When they met in Dhaka in 1906 and he put this stigma, he had no such intention. He used to say that we have a good group to raise the voice of Muslims. We have to negotiate with the British. Shah Sahab should get more favours, quota and jobs. Is it okay? In Aligarh. Well, so this was its purpose. His aim was not to make any new movie after independence. This work was done very quickly. That is why it is

35:52 also said about Pakistan that it was insufficiently imagined. Right? So it was an idea but it wasn't thought through. Right? So when it was not thought through for example I know that now there will be history that what kind of a country is this in the world which has two wings. There is 1000 miles of enemy territory in between. It's unworkable. Even by looking at a map I can tell you. Is it okay? Now I can say that if I had said this in 1960 or 1950, the state would have said that he is doing this. He is committing treason by becoming a traitor. Is it okay? Brother it is not possible. Well, okay, if it has become so, then you should find some way. You form a confederation. You give up autonomy. Subai himself gives the power to East Pakistan to

36:38 feel completely in charge of its destiny. He is not under the control of the ruling class sitting 1000 miles away in Rawalpindi or Karachi. Ok? So that's why even today we are facing the same problems. So the date is alive, right? What is Baloch saying today? Baloch is young Baloch, I am not talking about terrorists. I support the terrorists. The state should deal with him with its own hands. But what does a young Baloch boy or girl say? He says my brother is missing. In my state, Sui gas is produced from here. Rick Dickey Mines. But even water is not coming in my house. I don't even have a school here. There is no medicine even in the hospital here. I don't have any job. There is no factory. There

37:23 is no road. So what is my connection with Islamabad? I am alienated. Is it okay? You are sitting in Lahore. There is something amazing here, now Maryam Nawaz is running a solar truck, you will sit in it and go for a ride. There you can imagine that people can't even do that because it is so insecure. Well, the Pashtuns, where this recent tension is happening right now, whose houses are getting demolished again and again because of the geopolitics of Afghanistan for the last 20-30 years. Drones fall, children die, they say who is taking the decision, the drone sitting in Pindi Islamabad is falling on my house. What is my connection with this kingdom? So it is the same thing, right? That means we have to work on healing touch and the functionality of the federation. Ok? It includes

38:09 foreign sponsored terrorists like TTP. Now I am convinced that these foreign sponsored elements in Pakistan are carrying out terrorism. But people have to see also what we have alienated. That is also a theme related to our date. There is a constant theme. Coalition of communities of small states. The third important thing that we have just talked about is democracy and dictatorship. The same debate continues even today. See, it is a political party, it says that there is Mashalla law imposed in the country. The other one says, wow, wow, nothing can be better than this. So that same contest is present. That's why I think the first few years of Osama's Pakistan, especially the period from 47 to 58, is very important to study. We have

38:56 forgotten him. We remember that Ayub Khan had built that dam, Tarabela Mangala, G.Bhutto had made the Law, he had made the atomic bomb, major things and personalities are remembered but whatever was happening from 47 to 58, again and again, governments, political instability, economic instability, dependence on foreign aid, someone had mentioned it earlier, yes before this podcast, someone was saying that why do people become American puppets, it was because we had made preparations from the very first day. Ok? This is nothing new. Famous statement: Sir, between the invitations from Russia and America, he chose America's invitation. Although we ourselves were blinded by the fact that we had to go to Russia. Just to show that we have to go to America. Then we said, friend please leave us then we will come here. Look, let me tell you that this is

39:42 a very famous incident. Apart from this, let me quickly tell you two anecdotes. Chenna Saheb had also written a letter to the US Ambassador. In that, he had said that yes, we should become a new country. We are in great need. Give us an ad. This was written to the US authorities. So, in the first letter that was sent, he probably said, look, many congratulations to you. You have formed a new country. Right now our second great war has ended. We have given you two fans which we have made. We are sending this to you as a gift. Ok? For the Governor General's Office. Good. Then another Hussain Akani has written in his book that even in that era, the various conversations of Quaid-e-Azam used to take place, that is,

40:28 this was his policy, by the way, to align with the West, right? Why was everything good in Pakistan? It was a competition with India, India was much more developed, all the industries were left behind, there was an indigenous capitalist class, there were political institutions there. University was too much. You had a competition with him. You were absolutely a banker. So it is obvious that you needed help somewhere. So there is nothing wrong in asking for help. But being dependent on him for whole life then you become addicted. That should be avoided. So all these things are in the date. Today this dependency of US is accepted or not accepted in the name of slavery what will happen? This is all about its link to history. So there for it is difficult to understand. Well now as it is said, history has no

41:14 postulates. Now Pakistan is a reality. West Pakistan Today's Pakistan, I do not call it Jinnah's Pakistan, I call it Bhutto's Pakistan because this was in the post 1971 Pakistan, in Jinnah Pakistan there was also Bangladesh. Today we are in Bhutto's Pakistan. This is a reality now. You were born and I too was born after Pakistan was formed. You were born after me too. Yassir was probably born even after me and even after you. I was calling you sir sir. So sir was saying this, that is why I assumed that they are small. So, what is your identity now? You identify yourself as Pakistani. Now this is for better and this is our identity. Is it okay? Now I also go somewhere in this world. I say where does he ask from? I I say I I am Pakistani. I do not say that I was in Lahore or I was India

41:59 before 47. Before that I was Gandhara. Before that I am a Pakistani from Indus Valley. Now this is our reality. Therefore, now if we have to fix this country, then we will have to understand and diagnose all the fundamental issues from date and then improve them further. Sir, just one final question from my side because you are also a civil servant. I have been off course. have been. You top your batch s well. Nowadays there is a big discussion going on about reforms and other things. Let's deviate a little from the topic. But I would like to take this opportunity and ask your version of the reforms. Meaning, what we were talking about even before the podcast was that if the reforms are very narrow, not wide , then it is created from a bottle neck. Coming to a stage in a department but the first

42:46 16 years of education and everything else will remain the same. Even after that things will remain the same. A middle reform. So what reforms, set of reforms are required to actually make the bureaucracy better because we all agree that bureaucracy plays a very pivotal role in the country's progress absolutely, absolutely, see, progress is a matter of later in these countries, day to day running, it is okay, the country will sit down, those people used to say this, one of our late columnists used to say that bureaucracy used to write in his column, he used to write this every day, every time. So one day when I met him I told him the same thing. At that time I was serving in the civil services, so I said Sir, if you end the bureaucracy then who will run it? So he does not say that

43:31 he said it in this manner through the I write I column. Bureaucracy is much abused. Bad things are said as well as good. But it's vital to the functioning of the state and even society I would claim. And how to fix it or what reforms to be done, see, this is the topic of the book, right now, what will we talk about in brief, it will be a long way off, anyway, first of all there is recruitment, the system of recruitment, this is one of my departments, you mentioned that I have also been a civil servant and in the introduction, I think I should also tell you that Yasir, Nasir, I joined the civil service of Pakistan in 1994, I was in 2nd Command, after that I was also in the UN for two years in the UN Mission in Kosovo, that is also an international civil service

44:17 and there I was a municipal administrator in Kosovo, which is a position here, then after that I came back and was in the Asian Development Bank for 10 years, I was in ADB, that is also an international civil service, so basically my experience is of about two decades in national and international civil services, so on the basis of that I tell you that recruitment is the biggest driver of efficiency. and effective outcomes. Where recruitment is good. For example, I saw that even in the UN, recruitment was totally based on recommendations. Meaning there is some entrance etc. There is some merit. So that is why you should look at the condition of the UN. Everyone says that the UN should be closed down. Well, in Pakistan there are some things which are

45:03 meritocratic at the CSS level. But there are many places where meritocracy does not work. Just look, we should always remember that when we talk of civil services, we are not just talking about your World Times students, but the CSS ones, below them, the doctors, nurses, the vaccinators, the constables, the sweepers, the Patwaris, they too are civil services, they too are running the country, running the departments, I think they do a lot of work, they deliver much more than the officers, that is a different debate, so what kind of system will it be like for recruitment, and so first of all, that needs to be fixed. I think that I had benefited from the CSS exam. I had also got good marks. Everything was done.

45:50 But now I can say that but it should be changed. He should use more modern lines. It has become a cliché to make someone sit and write a three-hour paper. There should be a good specialization focus. This world is the 21st century of specialization in different places. The structure of civil service should also be specialized. Among the cadres that have been formed, some are somewhat specialized. It became police or income tax. But PS now needs to do some specialization. You cannot have a PS officer who remains Secretary Zakat for two years. Finance Secretary should be employed for the next two years. After that he should go to Islamabad and become the Secretary of Petroleum. What does the training do they have

46:36 ? I mean, I have seen this first hand myself. Good. So, one thing is that India has done this work that India has selected those cadres. The state cadre is when you have an entry, then you live in the same state and all the almost is your whole, which is the first Faz of civil service. You serve in that state. If you want, you can retire there as Chief Secretary. You won't go anywhere else. This is what happens first. Secondly, above the central level, they send it to the ministries at the initial level of deputy secretary or section officer. Someone has gone to Railways or someone has gone to Economic Ministries or someone has gone to Petroleum, then they all will serve there so that their growth and grooming can happen. So there is specialization. Ok? The second thing and the third thing is accountability.

47:23 How do you actually hold civil servants accountable? There is no way, what is is imperfect. The ACR system and the performance review system keep tinkering with it. This will continue until a culture of accountability comes into being and unfortunately, it has to be done by politicians and the politicians themselves use bureaucrats to get their work done. So there should also be a system of independent accountability and then incentives, I think, is a very big region. Of course many CSS officers have better salaries and perks. But others are part of the civil service or public service. You see, there are lakhs of lady health workers. She does the most important work in Pakistan.

48:10 Okay, she goes to many more houses than Afsaran Bahadur and gives advice on polio, infection in children and pregnancy, that is, Vital Primary Health Life and Death Services do not pay them salary for three months. And what is the salary? It is such that Osama Mian, you go and spend it in a day and a night on a feast with your friends. So the thing is that they do not even get that. Take the Patwari, well then these LHVs or nurses or the health workers who work in BHU, what do you give them? So give them an incentive structure so that they come. They say that the teacher does not come to school. Absenteeism is rampant in Pakistan. You first recruit school teachers on political grounds. You make him your election messenger.

48:57 You pay him so little salary that he cannot even afford to buy his house. Let alone anything. ok sir. After that he asks why didn't he come to school? Put the phone inside. Do this. You should make his salary respectable so that he gets an incentive. Is it okay ? And then you do n't treat him as a political agent, as a polling agent because that is how you treat him. Then it is obvious that when you bring it into the system it becomes dependent on the physical parts. So these are all very complicated issues. We will talk about this in detail sometime next time, Insha Allah. Sir just to make it Chris and one last question just to wind things up. Sir, you are related to history, Sir we would say this, Sir when we look at the history of Pakistan then the Pakistan of Habib Jalib looks

49:43 different, the Pakistan of Faiz Ahmad Faiz looks different, the Pakistan of Bukti looks different, the Pakistan of different historians and poets looks different. Different perspectives come. In order to understand this thing, apart from text books, how do you make a new Pakistani child or a new person who is entering into this history, understand it, how to explore it, how to read it so that he can understand the correct perspective of that history of Pakistan, this is a very excellent and good question of yours and I think once again a very long discussion can be held on this, see some basic texts which are mandatory should be a part of this education and upbringing. You know, in the past times, the story of Gulistan and

50:29 Bostan princesses was taught mandatorily. Although there was no science or anything like that in them. There was a basic ethical education in it. There were lessons. What are ethics? We used to have a civics topic here. That too is over. So, there are many such things, many such books which I remember that when I was young, there was a volume of Makhjan Akhlaq, my father brought it for me, it was a publication of 19th early late 19th early 20th century. It basically has quotations from all over the world. There is a verse in it from the Holy Quran. There is mention of it in the Bible, from the Gospel. There are some Hindu texts in it. These are the sayings of Lord Buddha.

51:16 Eastern and Western Modern Philosophers is his compilation. So when you read those quotations or passages, you used to think about them. You know as a 10-12 year old kid, I read that in Urdu, so there are many such rare texts present here, but if you look specifically, I would think that KK Aziz's books should be mandatory and Not Just Murder of History, which is very popular, but his Making of Pakistan, in my opinion, is a mandatory text, it is a very good text. It is also easy to read. The remaining few academic books may be a little complicated for youngsters to follow. For that you need a basic level education.

52:02 I have my own collection of essays. I said I should make my book famous too. The name of the company is Being Pakistani. So that is Essay on Society, Culture and Arts. Those are small magazines, so in them there is mention of Jalib sahab as well, there is mention of Fada Riaz, there is mention of Pakistani artists, some were published in newspapers, some were conference papers, in them you get a snapshot of Pakistan's very diverse kind of complicated heritage and culture, so I am being Pakistani, so I said end this as well, but the more important thing Yassir is that look, the first thing is that people will read books only when there is a reading culture. Ok? The reading culture is becoming unpopular.

52:49 Among our elders, among our young ones and this is a crisis. It's just not here. I have been teaching in the US for 10 years now and the same issue exists there. The children do not come there to study in class. Although you would say that he is more privileged. Was born in America. Their schooling is better. If you show me that video, I will watch it with great interest. Podcast Reels. Now is the era of reels. They are short, now no one goes beyond 2 or 3 minute reels. So now the question arises that we will also have to see how to present these ideas to this new generation through digital technology, which we used to do readings for. Like this podcast again I feel this is a way too long a podcast. Maybe a reel of it should make us think about what we have to think of we have to go with the

53:35 times. Now if we beat the children and tell them that you did not study and you are not doing this and you are not doing that, then also it will be wrong because they were born in the age of internet, in the age of mobile telephones, this is what they know, so let's try and use digital technology to provide proper education, this will also result in the end of a lot of ignorance online, this is called WhatsApp Universities, the groups which are based on conspiratorial viewpoints, it will also be an open result if we provide proper facts and good things on the internet, on Facebook, on Ina, on TikTok. Sir, thank you very much Sir, once again thank you so

54:21 much Nazreen, this was our program in which we had a detailed conversation regarding the history of Pakistan's civil services reforms so that a better understanding could be provided to you people. And this was Raza Rumi for you visitors, your host would like permission, take care of yourself, Allah Hafiz