Success or Failure? Doctor Who - Time Lord Victorious

0:01 hello there this is John khaw and I'm just slightly bothering the voice of John Perry for a moment I don't know maybe a regeneration might happen yes it happened there yes and you're listening to the Sirens of audio wonderful chaps help [Music]

0:57 good day audio files this is the signs of audio the show that explores the universe of Doctor Who and the audio medium my name's Dwayne and Philip's not with me right now but he will be shortly so never fear today is going to be a special episode where we are going to be sharing our thoughts on the entire audio range of Time Lord victoras which is about five releases from Big finish and one release from big uh BBC audio and we were asked to do this on for a different podcast the guys from prog too A couple of years ago asked us to do these reviews uh for their show which was really good and uh in the middle of that not long after we started they changed their podcast to around the console so if you look up the guys from around the console Suki Bob

1:44 Craig and the Gang John and Cliff the others that I just couldn't think of for a second um you'll be able to hear our our thoughts and because they reviewed the entire time lord Victorious series a couple of years ago and they invited us on just to talk about the AUD so what I'm going to share with you today is those so when we talk about the guys from Pro too or around the console uh you'll know what we're talking about and uh yeah we're going to share all those reviews we have something extra too because one of the stories is genetics of the dialects which is a fourth doctor story written by Jonathan Morris that we uh spoke with about a long time ago now and we've never shown that interview so we're going to be sharing the interview with Jonathan Morris on genetics of the dcts so I'm

2:31 looking forward to sharing that with you in addition to our chat with Jonathan Morris one of the writers we're also going to be speaking with another writer and producer for the series overall Alfie Shaw so that's right at the end stick around for that Alfie's great to listen to very enthusiastic about the project um also uh the first couple of stories in the audio Tim Lord Victorious range uh a couple of short trips now one of the authors fot TR I has had a name change since then so because of the age of these interviews we will be referring to F's previous name so please be uh be mindful of that that it is an archival piece of material um so that is just for your information so uh with that said we're

3:19 going to get into it now most of these reviews apart from the first one we have video for as well but the very first one on the short trips we didn't record the video we just did it the oldfashioned way uh for audio only so that goes for about 10 12 minutes uh with us talking about it I'm going to put something up on the screen for you to watch while you listen but all the rest of the discussions and reviews of the time lord Victoria series will have video so with that said I'm going to throw in a trailer for Time Lord Victoria short trips Master thief and lesser evils and then we're going to get into it from Big finish Productions the soft shine of the glass caught another creature an Immaculate bearded figure carrying a blue cylinder

4:05 under one arm the master Doctor Who Time Lord Victorious short trips Master Thief you had the most glowing recommendation she told him The Advocate General is a good friend he Dem mured in fact the master had met the old woman just once for all of five minutes she recommended you too I mean the repository your personal service turning a corner two guards stood in his way they raised their weapons as the master raised his their screams reverberated down the dark passageway more guards came running to intercept but he cut them down

4:51 without Mercy you will obey me lesser evils death descended on the planet Alexis one bright and crisp clear morning the curu now bent and placed her hands on top of the dense litter of the forest floor the creatures of and in the ground were drawn to her warmth and power they came to her voluntarily she brushed the carapace of a tiny globular bug and constrained it to a lifespan of weeks a most intriguing species said the man in Black Velvet the woman didn't Flinch but incredibly she

5:37 hadn't known he was there I take it he said agreeably eyes now on the woman that I have the pleasure of addressing the je representative of the all hallowed curu I am your humble servant he bowed though there was something playful inin sincere in his movement did he dare to mock her now that I have your attention big finish we love stories well thank you Bob for having us on the legendary podcast that is pro to

6:23 who my name's Dwayne and my name is Phillip thank you very much for asking us to have a little chat about Time Lord Victorious now Philip short trips Master thief and lesser evils this was the first time I had dipped into the time lord Victorious Saga at all was that the same for you it was the first yes first time I I listened to okay so so what I was most excited about was the fact that John khaw was doing both Masters um I hadn't yet heard masterful in which John khaw does the Roger Delgado master in Terror of the master absolutely brilliant story so this was the first taste I had of him doing Roger delgardo

7:09 i' heard him do the only master in the five doctors so I knew how well he could do it so I was very very excited about this but um the first the first foray into Time Lord Victorious was the story Master Thief so it was a Roger delgardo Master story and uh what were your initial thoughts on on that story well I I thought John kosa was amazing and the way he narrates and re is just brilliant I must admit I actually I listen to both these stories walking around a football oval um up at Port Stevens which is about 2 3 hours north of Sydney I was on holidays and I downloaded it and I was just walking round and round a football stadium and I got to the end of actually I think both

7:55 of them and went what was that so I think my impression was I just didn't quite get them um and I guess I thought at the time maybe it was because I didn't know really how they fit in with the whole time lord Victoria thing but certainly I finished finished both of them it was a bit confused um the first one master thief in particular I well I once again the performance was great the story was simple I think the thing that struck me most was it felt like it belonged to the Perry era era I I could almost feel that yeah the Third Doctor Sarah Jane were off on peladon while this is happening uh it did feel like the two things could be happening the side by side in terms of the storytelling and itly has a dramatic

8:40 ending but in terms of I guess of both of this one to me held together most mostly in terms of it's self-contained story that I didn't need to know outside of it so I guess this was probably for me the first time the most satisfying My Views changed when I listened to it again this week but initially this was probably the one I enjoyed the most what what do you think D so Delgado the Delgado master was doing things in this particular story that we're used to so we were used to him doing things during the Third Doctor era like going and and stealing the the Doomsday weapon from uh in in Colony in space so it's a similar kind of thing to that where he's going and and trying to steal some secret that he's that he's found out about so um

9:28 that was very good um there were some new elements introduced by Sophie is the writer too um to this story he didn't have reference the fact that he could shrink things but his the weapon that he used was not a shrinker it was something that was totally different which I probably shouldn't mention because it might spoil the story because it's very integral to the plot towards the end of the story the particular weapon the particular weapon that he used but it was quite graphic in in places I thought it it felt it felt very Ian marish in terms of Gore in description it wasn't Third Doctor description it was much more Ian Mar description yes as to Time Lord Victorious how it fit in I had absolutely no idea how it would fit in

10:15 so I was uh completely in the dark but as a standalone story I think it worked well the characterization was great then we got into lesser evils and my first impressions of that was that that oh boy John K Shaw is amazing as Anthony an's version of the master he had all the in inflections on there uh the story itself was very interesting there was a lot of exposition throughout this story rather than action um although we did get a bit of action but a lot of exposition lot of dialogue between the curu alien and the master which completely went over my

11:00 head I had no idea what they were talking about really which made and I I think the time lord Victorious has touted itself as being well you can dip into any story and listen and you'll be fine they're all Standalone stories well I didn't feel like this one was a standalone story having listened to it again just today you can see how it ties in with the first Master story as well um some interesting things that they kept pointing out about Anthony anley I don't know you picked up on this but uh it was referenced throughout that story that the only Master had two hearts which was something that I wasn't uh ever aware of was it ever established that he had two hearts well he took over tris's body but I don't

11:45 know that's interesting isn't it I yes I don't know that either cuz I always assumed that he didn't have a have a Time Lord body but perhaps uh when the beaver's Master merged with uh Tris uh perhaps uh he retained that time lord DNA when he had the uh when he had the an body although the only Master uh was destroyed a few times and brought back a few times in ways that we that we never really knew but yeah when with with the breathing that John khaw was doing and the inflections in the voice it was just superb and I loved it for that as for how it fit into the story um well I'll tell you a bit more about how the story slotted into me in a moment

12:31 but what were your thoughts on lesser evils uh I agree with what you're saying in a lot of ways I think what was interesting was the World building of Alexis the planet at the beginning so this is a Simon G story and usually his stories are very people character driven and so I was actually quite surprised he that so much time was devoted to the World building of a planet which I must admit see once again I don't know how 15 um so may yeah it might be my mind I struggle to remember things maybe and so I haven't work worked out where this story fits into the whole time of Victorious scheme of things yet uh the Couture I do know cuz I I bought the books CU I I did feel like I was just missing too much in the series and so I

13:18 did get the two books and that's one of those Books Deals both those books deal with coutura and so suddenly I understood what was going on here but when I first listened to this I had no idea what was going on and and to be perfectly honest I still don't get the coutur I don't really understand them as an alien race I don't really get how they can do what they do what their purpose is I mean I I know what their purpose is because it tells you blatantly but how they have that power to do what they do I don't get any of that I didn't understand anything about the gura either until I got the books which were released about a month after this so uh and it was probably six weeks maybe two months after this that I actually got round to reading the books so but I was glad I did because it it's sort of uh I think the the books are

14:03 called the KN the fool and the dead and All Flesh is grass now in the time lord Victorious listings it says all flesh is grass part one and part two I I've only seen one part I don't know where this part two comes from but uh the two books when you read those together you know much more about the curu who they are how they how they come from the Dark Times uh in those Dark Times of galif fray way before with all the other Godlike aliens out there like the osir and things like that the curu actually remind me a lot of Suk you know he brings his gift of Death to All Humans and yeah so he's he's one of these darktime aliens as well and the coutur is just one of those you know the demons as well um are from that time period

14:51 it's alluded to at any rate so um yeah I think you get a much better understanding of these stories if you read the books so I would definitely recommend that and I'm sure the guys from Pro to who will get round to that very shortly sure they will so I mean I enjoyed them as I said Les EV so stand alone of of all the time Victorious these two are probably I think in my mind probably the weakest they're well performed I'm not saying that to be part of is the short trip format doesn't always grab me so I think the short trip format has the potential to have a lot of creativity when it's simply narrating a story um I think it's a great way for new Authors to get a foot in the door for big F to check out what authors are like but they still often do feel like their

15:37 newish authors which is strange for Suri because he's experienced as but this is I think this is Sophie isis's first work for big finish so it still feels like they're still learning developing authors which I guess they are and and I felt that both of these didn't quite feel with the Sonic G one which usually I I will love and love all he does but there's a lot of stuff Stone holding and passing and and and I actually went back and listened to the ending and again and I still get I'm still a bit confused by How It Ends but maybe that's just me I I think when you um listen to the big finish audio that's coming out in April 21 uh Echoes of Extinction I think if you just listen just think about the

16:23 title Echoes of Extinction you think about the weapon that the master was using in master Thief um you think about what the curu actually do there's something timey wiy that's going to happen uh we've got alternate timelines going all over the place and I think uh that's going to be ultimately resolved but at this stage the next audio that was to be released was he kills me he kills me not and uh you're in for a treat with that one cuz we've got we've got Brian the oud Assassin to look forward to Yes it it totally picks up from here and these aren't bad but what's to come genetics of the Dal Brian the oud um some of some of the audios that coming out are topnotch yeah that's it for uh our short trips review Bob and the boys from Pro

17:11 to who back to you from Big finish Productions what you think a transmat capsule looks more like a depressed cupboard Doctor Who Time Lord Victorious echo of Extinction are you lost sir perpetually that's usually by design Edwards welcome home sir did you enjoy your Massacre no they all died too quickly find me someone else to kill of course this place should have a security system let's see if I can get a look at what we're dealing with that's odd I wonder I'm not sure I like how all the options seem to end in death that's how life Works sir you're a

17:58 coward as a killer and when you die up there all alone no one will Care thank you for killing them for me I'd kill everyone for you if this thing just wiped out your entire species it needs to be stopped it needs to be stopped well thanks Bob for uh letting us talk about the next in the time lord Victorious series Echoes of Extinction the eighth doctor side it's really exciting for to hear the boys and their excitement of audio particularly on the short trips from last time I was very happy to hear hopefully they might listen to a bit more Audio Drama on prog too Philip because audio rocks yeah well done boys keep listening to the audio stuff it's great so echo of Extinction

18:45 it was specifically designed vinyl release so that's why you've got the two 29-minute episodes it was supposed to come out what November last year was it January I think it was delayed a couple of times it I think my expectations for this was that was somehow tie up the time lord Victorious Arc and we'd have a bit more in it but I it's not what we got we got a nice little prologue we got a bit of a coder with the 10th doctor side but we're looking at the eighth doctor side and this is pretty much a standalone story I think it's a very good story actually and it's got Paul Clayton who plays Mr is it Mr Colchester in Torchwood I think it is just Colchester in Torchwood yes I think forget the mister forget the mister he's just coester yeah so we

19:32 don't normally get those actors well Paul Clayton's been in a couple of other Doctor Who but B Burn Gorman in particular definitely not pretty simple story as far as links to the time lord Victorious series didn't really get much of a link to that because I think it's tied up more with the tenth doctor side and the opportunity that he has I think the the time lord Victoria's Link in this is uh a reference to a line that the doctor makes in he kills me he kills me not which in chronological terms we haven't heard yet he's he's on a quest for the to see the 700 greatest wonders of the universe and that's pretty much it other than that it's a self-contained story which uh which I enjoyed what about you Philip well I think Alfie Shaw did a great job Alfie Shaw is probably better known for being in charge of all

20:18 the short trips uh but he's done a good writing job here in terms of the story it's as you said it's it's not it's a not complex but anything that poor mccan is in is going to be good because he just knows how the doctor works and just he he's such a hero doctor I guess and so I guess the moment he arrives you know he's going to be heroic and sacrificial self-sacrificial they are the two traits that Pagan really brings out really strongly um Burn Gorman as you said uh great what an amazing actor Burn Gorman is I think I was a bit disappointed that his voice was probably just a bit too disguised like I was really struggling to recognize it as burn Burn's 4 cuz cuz I love Burn's voice I love the way he acts I I do think the character

21:03 was unbelievably Sinister and yeah I think it was a good villain to have complex villain to have um part of the issue with the story is I said it's 29 minutes long and there's a lot of exposition that Alfie had to put in and so it really felt tightly packed and there's a couple of times I actually need to go back today and relisten I listened to when it first came out last month but there's a lot of stuff that I obviously missed and there was some stuff I wasn't I was trying to make sure that the links all held together which they did do but I did have to go back and re listen to a few sections of tight Exposition there's you there's a scene where the doctor's inside Network's mind and then there's a conversation when he comes out and I really had to pay attention to those two scenes to actually know what had happened and why

21:50 it happened and who was the villain and and what was going on there so it's a standalone story it's a good story I think it it does feel even though it's stand alone it feels like it needs more so it is actually in some ways kicking off the whole what T Victorious on the doctor's side of things but yeah I I enjoyed it worked well as far as putting more story in there unfortunately it is constricted by the vinyl format this is specifically designed for vinyl so even at 29 minutes it's really stretching it cuz vinyl is not really designed to go much past your 22 25 minutes even though stories have been released on vinyl they've been pressed from existing stories but this one was totally created from scratch which is all part of the time lord Victorious package plan yeah

22:38 the the Grand Master Plan of James Goss I I you know I would actually like to listen to it on vinyl because I think the sound design things have been done to hear it on vinyl and yeah I I had a h still have a huge record collection I I do like V but I must have been I've never started the collection of Doctor Who and V I think I have too too many collections going already and that really would be the end of my marriage but that being said um I would be curious to hear how the sound design worked on vinyl with the crackling with the the other noises that come as part of it and certainly in terms of the whole network idea in terms of the the network of sound and crackling and waves and things I do suspect that hearing it on vinyl would actually add a whole new

23:25 dimension to what's going on inside that spaceship so I'm Keen to hear what the boys at proo have to say about this story because it's a thumbs up from me it's not going to give you any massive answers in terms of time lord Victorious it's just one of those Standalone stories it's what they've always said though from the start is that you can dip into any of them and this is a perfect example of that if you want to get into the time lord Victorious into the meat of it you're going to have to wait until the books that's where you're going to get most of your information on how it all fits together but as far as this goes love it from big finish Productions if you allow me to end her life then we could stop all this excessive exertion I wouldn't need to run you wouldn't need to run and she

24:12 wouldn't need to breathe doesn't that sound nice Doctor Who Time Lord Victorious he kills me he kills me not days since last mortality 2023 three you must be disappointed that the number is so high it's called Brian Brian what kind of name for an assassin is Brian two planets away from aana is no don't tell me don't tell me I know this it is genit no Hil what happened to jop never heard of it oh this is fing it's not about the Statue it's what it represents or rather

24:58 what its absence represents when something as steadfast solid and fixed in time as the statue of kial just disappears there must be something very wrong with time itself big finish we love stories okay thanks Bob here we are thanks for inviting us back on to prto who it's great to be able to talk about the things that we love Phillip um and that is audio Through Time Lord victorus this time we're going to be talking about time lord Victorious he kills me he kills me not by Carrie Thompson what were your initial thoughts Philip well I um I loved it in terms of a lot of the ideas and it there there's bits there's bits in terms of it's not a huge complex story it's certainly nothing uh epic or Monumental but in terms of it's a it's a

25:45 amusing Western it's got some interesting characters and I just love BR the oud so I think if anything the thing that made this for me was um having Brian the oud appear he's amusing the way talks to Mr ball the way he threatens people he was just an interesting character interesting baddy and he hearing silus oh I forgot his name the actor Carson syus Carson syus Carson thank you hearing syus Carson was just great it was interesting going back and listening to this for uh I listen to it another couple of times actually uh because there were bits of this story you got to it's one of those ones where you got to focus on completely all the way through otherwise you miss little bits it's all explained but you got to be careful that you don't let your mind

26:30 wander too much um I when I listened to this for the first time I was very excited I it was the first full story that was released on audio in the time lord Victorious uh series last month we reviewed uh Echoes of Extinction uh so by that stage we'd heard all the time lord Victorious audios but this was the first full cast one with with the eth doctor uh written by Carrie Thompson so uh she hasn't written too much for big Finnish but what she had written I had listened to just before hearing this so she'd written a short trip called the second oldest question which was a Fifth Doctor Nissa story so read by Sarah Sutton I don't know if you remember it Philip do you remember that the second oldest question I do remember it and uh I

27:16 actually looked up again today when we just to have a quick listen to the beginning of it cuz I was curious as to have a little hit to a style yeah so anyone who likes this particular story uh by Thompson go and check out the short trip uh the second oldest question it is uh really really quirky story and written in such a different style that I was very excited about this one but you're right this one is more of a it's more of a straight down the line uh run of the it's not run-of-the-mill it's a it's a basic story it's not overly complex um it it was very engaging the the links to Time Lord Victorious on second listen have become more apparent to me so the doctor there's a a big time lord Victorious sort of uh plot point in

28:04 here where the planet he's arrived on is is supposed to be this ocean world uh but it's not so something is going on with time some timeline has jumped and the doctor is is saying something's not right here because this planet is not how I remember it so uh I thought that was that was very interesting uh he's he's still searching for those 700 uh wonders of the world and uh and wondering why the one he's seeking is not here which is a throwback to Echoes of Extinction to the last audio uh chronologically in the time lord Victorious uh series I did note at the time that the eighth doctor was sounding tired I don't know if that's a I don't know if that's a done on purpose by poor

28:50 Manan and the production team because it's sort of towards the end of perhaps The Eighth Doctor's life he's sort of trying to run away from the time war and he's in that particular period so he's been around for a for a while and he's sounding very tired um what did you did you feel that too Philip or it was a bit hard to know I mean they use the time War theme so it's telling us it is towards the very end of Pan's stint so that they they which I don't like by the way you don't like you don't like the theme no no I I just can't I can't sort of Gill with any eighth doctor theme other than the David Arnold theme it's just not right to me oh so I really enjoy it I love all the clay metal and the B bits and pieces and the percussion and it's used for the War Doctor and it's used for I think it's used for one

29:37 of the seventh doctor novels as well the war master I think it was used for it's used for the war Master as well or does he have a different theme no he's got a different theme different theme so I think it's ch at least two doctors if not three so uh yeah it's not it's not specific to the eighth doctor it I mean it's good but to me it just doesn't J with the eighth doctor okay well I like it um yeah I guess you skip them you skip them yeah I do no see I stopped to listen to it today so there you go it actually kept me listening rather than skipping it today um I I think I do think I do enjoy the storyline I think I do like the idea of being a western is amusing um and so I think it does capture a lot of those ideas those early Western ideas which I think are great I

30:24 do think there's a typical range of character it's almost it's almost like the gunfighters and there's lots of bits that so in my head I'm picturing the gunfighter set I'm picturing the the um the canteen and the doctor's surgery they use the same locations as they use for the gunfighters I don't know how deliberate that is uh I I must admit I did think along those exact same lines too although it's not as funny as the gunfighters uh I did think the same yeah so yeah I think it's a little bit to that I think Scott's done a marvelous job it's one of the first things they actually did in down and so in terms of being able to pull a cast it's a very young cast and most of the casts haven't appeared in anything else and said the the authors only done one other piece for big finish I think do think the time lord Victoria set has

31:10 been a good opportunity for big finish to test out new writers and to feel safe in doing that in terms of yeah the old big finished store warts aren going to care too much in terms of this range necessarily so a lot of the writers are trying out new things so I think that works well in terms of this storian and try out a new writer so yeah I think there there's some good great stuff in it as I said I I do like a country you know Western uh and this this does that well and what did you think of Brian as uh as a character Brian the oud when when I first heard the name uh before this was released I knew this character was coming and it sounds absolutely ridiculous it sounds like it can't possibly work but my feeling at the time

31:55 was no this is big finish they have done they have got a good track record of of seemingly crazy things being put forward to us to consume but they usually end up doing a fantastic job and I think this was a typical example of that something that you don't think could possibly work and this was absolutely perfect the dialogue that Brian the oud was uh was given was uh Sensational uh it was funny he was terrifying uh you felt a bit sorry for him at times it it was just a Great Character and it's it's probably what got me interested to expand in uh in the time lord Victorious universe and I started looking forward to the the books that were coming out to find out a lot more about Brian yeah I agree I think

32:41 Brian is probably the standout thing that makes the whole thing work I'm not sure it would work the same way without him and and the his humor and the way he's written uh just go back to I think you saying before too making me think in terms of the whole time lord Victoria series one of the things I thought listening through in terms of actually things that weren't answered and it's inter having now listened to everything and read a number of the books so I dipped into quite a bit more of the time chorice I meant to I'm actually feeling like it's actually not jelling together to me as well as I thought it would do so having done we we talked about the first story the echo of Extinction um and we you I'm trying to think what else come between now and then but certainly as I look at the whole package I'm not seeing all the links that clearly and

33:27 having now listened to everything read the books I thought the second time going through I'd see the links a bit more clearly than I am I I I know that they wanted things to be stand Alish but it's obviously pointing for things but I'm not sure everything always picks up properly I I get exactly what you're saying I was thinking I was thinking the same thing I'm picking up on the on the The Big Arc inferences but how they all fit together I'm also finding myself thinking maybe I should go back and read the books again um maybe I should uh watch the D animation again uh and because obviously this one ends on a cliffhanger and goes I I think it goes directly into the next one which is the enemy of my enemy so uh and it was the enemy of my enemy the one straight after

34:12 this that uh really brought home those darc characters that we first saw in the darc animation so um yeah you you make a very good point there um it's it's uh it's got the time lord Victoria Banner on it but yeah it's still having heard everything that I have yeah you're right you're absolutely right now that I think of it too so what about some of the themes is it anything that stood out for you that you weren't so impressed with Dwayne well you know there was Philip because i' I've spoken to you about it oh I was leading into casually so no one would notice the fact that we may have talked about it first look there it's people people say that doctor who has always addressed political issu

34:57 issues but I think we're in a period in history where individuals like never before have been so engaged politically because we get that instantaneous um engagement through social media and we can react straight away like you know for instance when the green death was made back in 1973 um yes the the old crisis and climate change was a political issue but the only way people could engage with it was by talking to their their their local member or by reading the newspaper and then talking to family they couldn't actually get so involved and so hyped up about it you know they read the newspaper and then get on with the rest of their day all right so political issues yes they've always been there but

35:44 when they're put in Doctor Who today they can be much more reactionary and I got one of those reactions in this um in as much as uh part of the plot of this story was that the girls were running away or one of the girls in particular was running away from her father because uh there wasn't too much said about this particular culture that she'd come from that the the parents were creating these designer babies to basically be servants to them and the children were supposed to be servants to them and um she was making comments throughout the play saying how um her father just wanted to control her and it it just reminds me of the of the of the noise that's being

36:30 made uh throughout a lot of Social Circles political circles at the moment about patriarchy and how horrible it is and uh how everyone's going to you know rebel against it and uh it's it's not a particular uh Viewpoint that I share so it sort of got my back up a little bit and I didn't notice it the first time around but I've been uh you know I was a little bit more sens II to it this time so I I didn't like that aspect about it but when I was talking to you about it Philip you made a good point too that there's younger actor younger writers coming in I should say with uh less experience and they've got these viewpoints and they want to express them and they they're possibly doing it in ways that aren't quite so subtle well

37:17 certainly wasn't subtle to me anyway it annoyed me a little bit yeah the thing that struck me listening to it actually actually did it did actually struck me last time and I thought maybe it's just you know I'm a a grumpy old man with lots of kids and uh I hear my kids wiing my kids winging all the time about being controlled and that's not fair it is something that Adon go through and um I've actually done marking for we we have an exam in Sydney in New South world called the basic skills test where we test every child year five seven n oh three five seven and n and they have to do a piece of writing and I actually have for a couple of years um a few years back marked all this adolescent writing all this year NES writing and every second story has something about

38:03 how awful parents were and how controlling they were and I just thought I'll just grow up and just to me it was just adolesent writing and you know people grw out of it uh you see a bit of in you the Twilight series other things in terms of you which is for adolescence so I just just to me was sort of thrown in there and I sort of thought ah it's it's it's a writer who's young and one day she'll grow up and she'll appreciate her parents more we can only hope we can only hope but but apart from that that's the one thing that sort of nickled me a bit but the story itself um really good to listen to it's always good to hear Pagan as the eighth doctor and uh really looking forward to the next one uh because it's it finished on a cliffhanger and went straight into it I think these two this one and the next one were released within about a week of each other so we

38:49 virtually got them at the same time or were they released on the same day I think they were the same day my memory I think I think it I think you might be right but anyway looking forward to having a listen to that one for next month so back to you Bob yeah thanks Bob for having us again from Big finish Productions greetings citizens of Rex we are the DX we come in peace Doctor Who Time Lord Victorious the enemy of my enemy you will be exterminated not until the doctor has given us what we need and what is is that your help what exactly did DX's fear that the changes will spread that

39:37 Scara will no longer birth your race that you will cease to exist and what do You observe doctor oh you know pretty much everything I have a particular interest in new cultures and societies the rians are an ancient civilization so I gather but you are new to me and that's very very exciting we are walk stage meate I think I know what the devolver does you can't do this you can't the dals the rians and the time Wars all their lives are now entwined and I can end them all in an instant big finish we love stories guess

40:25 what Phillip what Dwayne Bob's invited us back on prg to who to talk about some more time lord Victorious Bob's a nice guy he's not very smart sometimes can I just say oh thanks for having us back Bob we're talking about the enemy of my enemy this time which is to me uh when I first heard this it it really uh jumped out at me the first time I heard it and when I relistened to it for this little review uh it smacked me between the eyes again and all I can say about this one is what well I can say more but the first thing say is wow it is a fantastic story so far if I was listening to this chronologically uh this would be my favorite time on Victoria Story So Far well you are listening to it chronologically so it is yeah okay no

41:12 question about it I'd have to fully agree with you D it certainly is a standout and yeah going back and listen to again because I remember being impressed by it the first time through but as at the time I was listening to lots of stuff bit overwhelmed and second listens are always so much better you pick up so much more so much more of the humor the dialogue you know what's going on and yeah I really enjoyed this so much more this I enjoyed it the first time for this time it really does stand out for so many reasons and where I was struggling to find connections to the time lord Victorious Arc in previous episodes this one is just full of them so I could uh I could really tie this into the full Arc they're talking about it a lot the doctor the dials between themselves the plan the planet and the people that they encounter together um

41:58 so I think this one ties in best so far to the time Lo Victorious Arc yeah I agree so I mean it's a straight follow on from the last story that we looked at in terms of you with Brian the oud and that wonderful story um but also this then leads directly into the books which I do have as well and so you do see that progression of this the place this story plays between that audio and the book which works really well though you don't need the book of course because this is before that but you're right it's it's starts to play on the whole idea the coutura and death and that whole theme of death that's a very part large part of this torus you can start to see the theme starting to developed through the story and it it it features the the uh Devolution is it Devolution or de Evolution machine that was featured way

42:44 back in the very first short trip Master Thief so that's back in play here um and it's really interesting to see the doctor joining forces with the dialects it doesn't happen too often uh I can't think of any other stories there probably is some other stories out there with the the doctor joining forces with the D death the do a big Pon death to the dals they joined forces together to try and get off the planet and when the darks have lost their weapons yeah I guess I guess I guess this is a more in your face of the whole story begins with the the cold open and then the theme music starts with the dalik saying um you've got to help us so ties in really well with uh with the theme you know you know what I love

43:31 about big finish audios I love subtle references placed in that you can trace back to even classic Doctor Who there was a I don't know if you picked up on this but there was a reference where the doctor is heading somewhere with the time strategist so uh the time strategist in the story is trying to uh protect the doctor from the other dialects who just want to kill him and they are heading along they get to this ladder or something like that and the doctor says oh you might look like you've got an old casing but you must have this such and such circuit I can't remember what he calls it uh uh can't remember the name of the circuit off the top of my head uh and then the do says Elevate so like like in the new desert so there's a link to the new series and there's a link to the Classic Series where older doic possibly could not fly

44:19 did you pick up on that yes must the Elevate was a nice touch and it was done very much like the dalc in dalic mhm which is because I mean the time strategist has a very distinct voice um actually Nick Briggs is unbelievable in this story and I'm pretty sure I tweeted it at the time I have been blown away by Nick Brigg's performance in terms of every Dal is so different and so distinct and the old saying goes I me the reason why death Ross was created was because the dals can't do dialogue whereas this this audio actually disproves that because you have the dial doing dialogue brilliantly you have one actor which is astounding playing all the different dials so distinctly as they have conversation you know exactly

45:05 which the dial is it's talking without a problem which which you think would be hard to do on audio with just dials but it is so distinct and the way that they the characterization of each dalc comes out and their deviousness or their you know murderousness depending who they are um yeah Nick just Nails it perfectly I didn't look through the list prior to that but did you know Jacob dudman was in it yes he was yeah one of the guards he was yeah back and forth I didn't I didn't pick up but as you would expect with Jacob dudman a phenomenal voice artist along the same lines as John K Shaw you know in in 10 15 years time Jacob dudman could be the next John K Shaw you know yeah I think that big finish found an amazing person

45:52 there just like there was Sheran Smith they they they've found a couple of stars On The Rise I think ja D is one of them yeah absolutely I was very excited about uh about this story and very much back into the time Victorious Arc cuz it's been left left me feeling a bit cold the last few releases but this one absolutely superb stuff and uh you you can't go you can't go very wrong with the Enemy of My Enemy tracyanne Bane she's a new writer for big finish hasn't written an awful lot I think this was her very first release wasn't it Philip it was this was the first one and then about the same time very fast as here was the River Song box set from the start of the year yeah um called A Brave New World so that that came out very fast as well another strong character

46:37 piece but character piece between people rather than DS yeah she wres she writes really good dialogue yeah I think I was just G say struck me in terms of um her use of humor in the first half of the show was really very clever so lots of very funny lines the doctor being very disrespect towards DARS and you know challenging them and a lot of humor there but by the end it had turned very Bleak and black so there was a interesting journey through from I guess that's she she knows how to play emotions well because she rode high on terms of yeah interest humor to Adventure to Bess it was it a real journey she takes the listener on yep so all in all I think this was a fantastic release and uh really looking

47:24 forward to the next one now mutually assured destruction which is the next audio release can't remember off the top of my head what's coming chronologically uh but yeah very much looking forward to that and uh any final thoughts Philip for you on this one say my one negative was interesting I think a big new series I think the ending surprise me with the doctor being duped so badly by the dials in terms of he doesn't know what they've done or he just he does actually trust him too much which is interesting it's it's more of a 13th Doctor sort of trait I think the 13th doctor regularly gets duped or doesn't quite know what's going on or acts in a way that doesn't actually um allow the best of best actions at the end of the story and it was it felt a bit 13th series with with how the doctor

48:10 at the end is is yeah allows a course of action to happen which he's even unaware of had he tried to stop it had he there been other things that could have made it work better but his failure to even recognize was happening to me felt very crisal but yeah know yeah well one possible explanation for that could be that he's never come across a Dal quite like the time strategist before it was a very very different kind of DC and uh may have found himself trusting it a little bit more than he should have but um yeah who knows who knows interesting point in in the next books the other doctors are going to be pretty disgusted that this doctor is working with the dials anyway so I guess it is going to follow up and

48:55 follow on from there yeah yeah so it's kind of laying the foundation for that cool very good thanks very much uh Philip and thank you boys from Pro to who uh it's been great to be guesting on your show once again so back to you have a little Adventure little excitement you what the answer is to a gr one classified question [Music] well good day boys from around the console thanks for having us back really appreciate it Philip and I are both here

49:42 we're going to talk a bit more time lord Victorious and this is certainly a range that I would like to go back to and maybe see if I can find a bit more of the media Phillip and and go through it in order one day if I ever have the time it do you feel that like that well I've certainly been enjoying listening to the uh around the console discussing it week by week yeah or or whenever they come up I me I listen to their podcast recently about the two books and of course I really enjoyed the two books me too it was really great listening to them talk about that and you know I'm really enjoying what they're having to say and what they're picking up on so I know we're only limiting they're limiting us just to the audio um which but that in itself I've enjoyed going back and particularly this one because I must admit I wasn't impressed the first time I heard this no you weren't I Remember

50:29 My Views have changed slightly so yeah this is this is related to the books though because this is set right in the middle of all flesh's grass so if you look on the release timeline or the story order timeline this is set in a small well the minds of magnox is set in a small group of stories right in the middle between part one and part two of all flesh's grass so yeah I I don't recall the details of uh the 10th doctor going off and getting that spaceship and pairing it with the Tardis like he's done in there as much as I feel I wanted to for this but it it was mentioned so it is connected very much to that story and the events that happened in the middle of the book uh which is very interesting uh the first

51:16 thing that struck me about the minds of magnox it was the author Darren Jones Stu uh stuck out in my mind because in 2019 Darren wrote my favorite Doctor Who audio story for big finish and that was called Cry of the VTR do you remember that one it was an ice warrior story I do reverse set on an set on a completely Alien Planet so all the characters in that story were aliens and interestingly that was also produced and directed by John answorth who did this for for BBC so there's a connection there between those uh two people and I think that makes this story interesting to me in that because cry the vurus was set on an completely Alien

52:03 Planet minds of magnox is really visual in that sense too where we get lots of visuals of these weird uh crazy looking aliens but really explain nicely Jacob dudan is always on top form well before we get to Jacob what did you think of the setting of magnox Philip yes I think you know I'm I'm not a huge fan of the wildly alien Landscapes visitors when big FS usually do them um but can I say this one surprised me at how well and clearly it was explained so you know one of the things I can't stand is too much Exposition and you know often audios get get criticized for to exposis but I gu because this is a story it's it's it's a diff it's allowed to to talk things differently and certainly I it's it's

52:51 not an audio drama it's not an audio drama so yeah because it's is an audio book it actually changed what what the rules were and I think therefore I got a much clearer better picture early and in fact there's stuff that I'd missed the first time I think partly why I enjoyed this more was I don't think I'd read the book when I listened to this the first time so it that's right cuz this came out before the books didn't it yes just before or at least at least before I was able to get hold of the books I had to wait a little while for them to be sent across from the UK um and so having had the knowledge of the books this did fit in for me a lot better um and also having more recently listen through um to Brian the oud and other bits and pieces it connected a lot better with me than it did the first time I I heard it

53:36 but I do think the World building is actually very powerful and usually as I said aliens when they described often I I don't get a good enough picture in my head I think big Finnish deliberately trying to avoid too much Exposition too much explanation and so it is left a lot more to your imagination which for some people they love that um but for me me this was actually really well explained and so the aliens and the whole concept of growing bumps and knobs on their heads as they grow in knowledge I thought was a really fascinating idea and as they described different ones of the different different people um it it really Str out so yeah I Lov the idea of the city I thought the the library sort of picture was I for me was qu of like like the um sound the

54:22 sounds of the library sort of idea was there without the books but you know big white areas of consoles and things so yeah I I managed to catch the really good picture in my head it was really well described I thought yeah agreed and you know I'm a big fan of Jake dudman so uh what were your thoughts on on his performance in this well isn't Jacob always you know fantastic in terms of his energy levels the way he describes his characterizations I don't think he's got the perfect 10th doctor but you always you know he he does enough affection towards the 10th doctor you know it's him but the other characters too were very powerful and Brian the oud um he really to to me Brian is a stand out character in this and it was nice to get

55:08 some more of his story it was and once again you know just with the the effect that they used and Jacob's voice he really captured it is it Silas Carson I think usually does the voice yes for for the ud and so um Jacob really captures that and so for me actually was actually the story I was most intrigued by was following Brian the oud story um who's just a fascinating character I mean I don't know I don't think he's a companion can can a companion be an assassin um but but yeah so everything that Jacob did was just really clear what did you think of Jake oh yeah he was great H just on Brian the oud you mentioned that I love I love the uh backstory uh on how he was drafted into becoming an an alien and we

55:55 had a reference to the uh lesser order of the uh what was it the Knights of Oberon or the Lesser order of Oberon not the Knights of Oberon which is which is uh the character from revelation of the DXs um so that was that was nice to get that bit of backstory but just just the whole backstory of the fact that you know they made him as he was and then he just killed them all but yeah the nice one he killed first because he didn't want him to suffer which is very much I don't know if you read um you know Agatha Christi's um and then there was none there's know there's 10 people all guilty of crimes there and they killed off from the um least guilty to the most guilty so that those Left Alive the longest are suffering more and so the one who just

56:41 got drunk and killed a girl on the road he gets killed off first and doesn't have to go through all the trials of everyone else um and you know Brian the ud very much is like that you the one he liked the most he killed him first and then you made everybody else suffer he just he's an awful character but you kind of like him so here's a question I had uh about the story The the question that the 10th doctor was going to the minds of Magno to ask but Brian the U didn't know what the question was I didn't know the question either had did we know what the question was at this point okay I was why i' missed it I don't know cuz I I I was listening and I could I didn't get it I thought maybe it was in a book or maybe it's in a future comes out in the second half of the book I don't know but I don't think that question with was

57:26 ever answered no maybe maybe it was the the reason he left in the middle of all flesh's grass I don't know so um maybe the around the console boys picked up on that but I I didn't didn't take away too much from the story for me but yeah just a little niggle it's it's an interesting period actually because it is probably I mean I love David Tenant I think he's I think he's my favorite he's my favorite new doctor since the show came back but this is the period of his time when you really really don't like him and you're not not supposed to like him you know the time lord Victorious is very much him at his craziest and worst and believing he can do whatever he wants and that was one of your problems when you first heard it wasn't it that he he did something so horrible that you you

58:13 found it hard to uh reconcile I I have issues well yes I I have issues with how he's behaving but I do actually now now we're going through it again and now we in context with the books and things I do well not I I still don't like it but I still think that is where the 10th doctor was and that's why the 10th doctor had to go that yeah he he and Rose there hubus got so great and the punishment for that was Rose being sent to another dimension and then you know Freeman not Freeman U Martha and Donna kept him stable for the next couple of Seasons but once he lost Donna he went into a place he shouldn't have gone a dark place and it it's still very much it is in line with the character it's in

58:58 line with what the doctor was doing I don't like who the doctor has become but I do understand in part of the story and the plot so yeah certainly the first time I listened it to this I didn't like how the doctor was behaving but in context of where we are in the history of the show after the water of Mars in that context where he believes he can do whatever he wants is the right to do whatever he wants and he's he's about to be brought I mean you tunnel of Victorious will bring him back to Earth a bit before he moves on to his final couple of inches but yeah it's it's very much in line with where the show was at at this time but what he did do in the events of the minds of magnox was uh well it it enabled uh the appearance of the 11th doctor right at the end uh in that

59:44 little Coda which was which was really nice obviously the 11th doctor is the best uh impersonation that Jacob dougman does he's absolutely perfect as the 11th um it's hard for me to differentiate between the two and I thought that was a really nice touch and so so far we've had what have we had in Time Lord Victorious the 4th the e8th 9th 10th 12th and 13th doctors I think were in Time Lord Victorious where's the 12th I think the 12th might be in a comic somewhere I could be wrong the 13th isn't she's J's not in yeah she she appears at the end of one of the comics comics I think oh okay I'm pretty sure um so we've had all those doctors it was nice to get uh the 11th in uh in this bit so yeah definitely yeah really nice

1:00:32 nice stuff can't wait for more from from Jacob dudman um because there were some great big finish releases that he starred in last year and um I hope the boys from around the console are getting more and more enthused about audio because uh it's been lovely to hear them talk about the audio so far but the next audio that's to come which I think uh I think that one's mutually assured destruction uh I'm waiting to see what uh what they make of that one CU it's uh pretty awesome it is indeed well that was great Dwayne good good great chatting about this I've enjoyed us thanks Philip thanks Bob and the rest of the team at around the console from Big finish Productions diver power to Shields

1:01:19 diting power will reduce navigational control seal the bridge we have lost outter source sections primary laboratory weapon store and payload module Doctor Who Time Lord Victorious mutually assured destruction I'm just a rat in the skirting boards causing Havoc now where is it you are the doctor [Music] stop you've been cooped up in the lab too long forgotten how to shoot in zero gravity you will learn you cannot trap the doctor he is too dangerous your actions

1:02:05 have jeopardized the survival of the DAR Time Squad you are looking for the Tardis you're a bright one what have you done with it but all aliens exterminate exterminate big finish we love stories right thanks boys Bob sukki John uh Craig and who's that other fow who's the other fellow oh Cliff Cliff that's right thanks for letting us back on to uh to talk about some audio stuff that we love talking about Philip This Time It's Time Lord Victorious mut destruction talking audio we so love it

1:02:53 we do so give us your thoughts on the on the story this is this was touted as uh Doctor Who does die hard it was um can I say this is probably my favorite certainly my favorite so far of the audios it is just nonstop action and adventure and so I just I love the passion and I love the the the DI hardness of it all it it is great the first half is really I was going to say it's a two-hander it's kind of a two-hander because it's own the doct andall I guess there's lots of DS but Nicholas Briggs and um Pagan are just amazing together I think for me the thing that stands out in particular is just the dcts Nicholas Briggs is just

1:03:38 Sensational with every voice that he does because we have a whole range of different dialects um the strategist the scientist the Supreme is it the Supreme who's the one commanding do they call him the Supreme who's the one in charge I think he's called the he's called the time the time Commander or something time it's not the time controller but yeah something to do with time because it's a Time Squad so um but you you are absolutely right with with this this is the standout for me you know I I always find in big Finnish Dal Empire to be the most interesting dalc series because the doctor's not in it but this oh if if there was more with these DARS This Time

1:04:24 Squad absolutely abolutely fascinating stuff and it just shows like you said the talents of Nick Briggs and he does all those different voices live he doesn't change I know I would really expect him just to lay down one set and then go to the next set he he just changes the voices as he does the script so I mean talk about talking to yourself crazy ass but it's so effective and I think because he's not recording down tracks it means he is actually acting with himself responding to himself and the dialects coming cross so much better because of that but the political Intrigue of the dals you've got to love the fact that there's all this politics going on between the different types and levels of dalic um I guess the time strategist has always had his own agenda

1:05:09 and his own plans which the other dos don't like but just seeing how effective that is in this story the doctor never really being sure where to go who to trust and even even when he gets separated from the Tardis not knowing where the Tardis is but he's just going around sabotage bits the ship here bits the ships there and just causing bedum so it's it's it sounds like there's not much plot but the story just is gets driven along great dialogue great action scenes but it just it's it's Relentless H yeah I I really enjoyed this and uh I was trying to think because it's a long time between listen I listen to a lot of stuff in between so I I forget detail but do you remember where this

1:05:56 was injected within the time lord Victorious it's in the it's it's one of the off shoots from one of the books book it's after the books so it doesn't it's it's a bit strange because the sort of the book ends with the time ship being damaged and going out of control and this picks up straight from there so it's it's kind of weird in terms of you don't get much backstory to know what's happened beforehand but because you just you have enough to know the doctor's on a Time ship it's out of control it's it's you know it's degenerating the doctors trying to get out of the dark times and back into normal space and time having taken the dials there in the first place and just yeah so there there's all those sort of things happening in terms of but you just don't need to know that this this is a standalone even though there it's surrounded by so much I'm sure the boys

1:06:41 have talked about how it fits in and surrounds with everything else they're really good with all that detail and they've been going through everything in order so what's happen next so you know when we listen to this I I'm sure I'll go oh that's what they're talking about

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