Vom Milliarden-Peak zum Nullpunkt – und zurück? Wie Trivago mit KI den Neustart wagt 🚀

0:00 A new episode of Innovation Pulse. Today we take a look into the engine room of the TEQ Capital portfolio. A German company that has a really interesting journey and that, in our opinion, is using AI very well in one vertical, in one industry. So the CEO himself took his time and I would say let's go. Yes Johannes, thank you very much for taking the time today to talk about the story. A look into the engine room of our TEQ Capital, so to speak : where do we actually invest?

0:47 But let's start with you as a person. Please introduce yourself briefly. Yes, I am Johannes. Thank you. First of all, I'll say that we have the chance to talk to each other and exchange ideas about Trivago . I think that's really exciting. I personally have three children and come from northern Germany, from a family of entrepreneurs. I founded my first company when I was 21. What was it? That was one, I would say that was one, we built an infrastructure where we built scaled websites in order to rank well on Google . Let me put it this way. And we have always founded travel microsites. Yes, we then booked domains and hotels in Berlin city centre, and then ranked them well on Google using mechanisms and analytical skills,

1:35 and then actually commercialised them quite well through affiliates . Those were fun times too. We are both, how old are you? I turned 38 this week. 38, yes, then you're still something. For you right at the beginning, for me it was - I've been allowed to do this for a while now, so to speak - we wrote C++ code at the beginning, which then created a lot of automatic pages... ...with keywords and that worked brilliantly back then, fortunately not anymore these days, but exactly. That's exactly what we have. So you start somehow and learn and tinker. I still had one of those, you probably said that, no longer, a modem where you downloaded software and so on. But that's how you start out in entrepreneurship, at least for me, and then step by step you stumble into it and eventually something works. Yes, and I also found enthusiasm for the online digital world because it is very analytical. You can identify problems,

2:22 what am I doing now, is it working or is it not working? Doesn't this work now? And that was super exciting for the startup . I then worked at another startup and luckily I didn't end up at Thuy or Thomas Cook. Yes, I studied business administration and tourism at the same time and that was actually the path I wanted to take. And then I actually learned a lot about the digital world and realized how cool it is, how many opportunities there are and how many problems can and should still be solved. And that's how my path went, to find Trivago, because at the time Trivago was a small startup with 50 people and was already relatively successful in the SEO area and also had good rankings. That's how I got to know you and then had the chance to play a

3:08 leading role in building it up over the course of ten years. That means that Rolf founded it, if I'm really trying hard, and then you came there as a bit of an expert, you pitched, look here, I can do SEO too, and then he said, hey, he's actually a smart guy, he can come on board, right? I started as an intern. I often do too. So Trivago had about 50 to 100 people, half of whom were interns, and I had my own company and continued to run it in parallel. I also wanted to learn at Trivago how they do SEO and link building and what not. And we did, and then it was so exciting because there was just a lot of music, a lot to learn. Then I dropped out of college, let my fellow founders continue with my startup, and then had great opportunities at Trivago to build up a lot in marketing.

3:53 And we are also one of the few digital brands that have We scaled this company globally to over 50 markets , did TV advertising and brand marketing in over 40 markets, and that was obviously an incredible journey. How do you do that with so few people and it was a lot about technology and that was always my focus. How can I now use Google Marketing via automation, automatically generate ads, automatically generate keywords? We will have over a billion keywords everywhere at some point, Google could hardly process it anymore. We'll go back in there in a moment , but I want to know one thing because you said you dropped out of college. Yes. How was it with your parents, your decision, would you say in retrospect, that was a good idea?

4:41 I dropped out too, so I didn't even have a high school diploma, but I was able to study at a technical college . Then, strangely enough, it became too boring for me because I was already good at programming . And I always ask myself back. Should I have finished it ? How do you see it? I thought about it for a long time, but in the end it was a straight- forward decision for me. I looked around, I was still in my diploma, in the last diploma year, that would have been the fourth year of my studies. And then I thought, what's on the agenda? What can I learn at Trivago and how much enthusiasm is there? And that was a relatively easy decision. I then called my mother , who was at the gym at the time and who, of course, found it interesting. Interesting, okay. But fortunately, I come from a corporate background. I come from a Thema family and they have always given us the confidence that we know best what is good for us

5:26 and the freedom to fail. And I think that was a huge advantage at that moment, that I had the trust from my parents to do it. If in doubt, I would have come back and continued. I think the risk is manageable, but it is still a step to actually do it, because you are obviously leaving an environment that is stable in uncertainty. And Trivago was at the point where they found out . Performance marketing works for us. We did the first TV marketing campaigns and it was really an opportunity to scale that, build teams, learn a lot and then move from marketing into technology and into product. That was incredibly exciting, yes. This is also the important topic for me. Find a team where this magic is

6:13 happening, so to speak, whether it 's ESA Aerospace or other companies that are currently building rockets or where you're just entering a time and saying, hey, this is twitching right now. With TikTok or what's happening here right now, and for you it was online marketing, which was one of the hottest topics back then. And you saw, hey, I have a chance to do something, and you jumped in. And the story about Trivago is really very, very, very impressive. Well, I would unfortunately like to take a roller coaster like that with me again, so to speak. Yes, that's part of it. These are probably wild emotions for you. So you're coming right now, we're standing at the Trivago right now. Rolf founded it, the first 50 people are there. You notice. That twitches. You come back in as an external expert and say, okay, now I'm going to help build this thing .

6:59 I am responsible for marketing here. And what happened next? So for me personally, I've been in marketing, specifically performance marketing , with tools built on how to scale marketing. First for performance marketing and then also in brand marketing. How do you build tools that we always distribute directly through marketing channels and TV channels? We our own creatives , built our own TV spots . Because for us the idea was always that if I externalize a process , I cannot learn myself, go into depth and improve it. That means we did a lot of our own brand marketing and performance marketing . I built tools to help teams scale faster and become better analytically . And cost 30 percent less because that usually gets

7:46 stuck with the agency. Of course that also comes into play. And if you negotiate better, you might get better prices. So you negotiate with passion because it's your company, right? Exactly, and the channels also understand you better and where you fit in and so on. You simply learn better together. Exactly, and I think that made the success very strong . We were then strong in Germany , strong in Spain, and we became very profitable there. We took the money and escalated things in Europe. Then we were very successful in Europe, took the money and invested in the USA . That was a huge step. Today the USA is by far our largest market. And I invested there for a very, very long time and learned how a market like that works, which also functions very differently from a media landscape than Europe. Then South America, where we are still the strongest travel brand there is .

8:33 Also one of the strongest in America. And then to Asia, we did India. We even invested heavily in China, which we no longer do today. But the business model and the product scale very quickly. Let's go in, what was the business model again? The business model was, you said, you bring the customer to your website through search engine optimization and ads and so on . But you then essentially who then paid you an affiliate commission . Was that the business model? Exactly, we aggregate hotel chains, booking sites, OTAs, including TUI and travel agencies. We aggregate everything that is available on the market. And we have always had a brand-first strategy.

9:20 We didn't enter the market first with performance marketing , we entered the market first with brand marketing . Which then usually has a positive influence on performance marketing . And we generated a lot of demand there. And as a marketplace, you always have the challenge of bringing demand and supply together. And we did this very consistently. It was always expensive in the beginning . But over time we have always managed And to scale it quickly so that your partners also want to work with you. And we brought them a lot of new users. We have brought a lot of people from the online world, the offline world, into the online world. That means new users for Expedia, Booking and Co. who really wanted them. Which is still the case today. And that's why we had a

10:09 great proposition for the user. We had more inventory , more choice of hotels. Comparing prices was a no-brainer . That's what Trivago Bay originally had. A travel platform, similar to TripAdvisor or Wikipedia. And then you notice that different sites have different prices for the same hotel, the same room. And we should build a product out of it and pass it on to users. And there was a surprisingly good market fit on a global level. And then Trivago, yes, was it founded in Düsseldorf ? It was founded in Düsseldorf , yes. And then it was, was n't that one of the top 5 or top 10 German startups? You then went public. So maybe you can take us there again. What was the first big peak, so to speak, before the

10:58 we will address in a moment. But then you went public? Yes, we went public in 2016 . Yes. And that was, I think, a time when we made almost a billion in sales . We are still, or was that in 2017, when we still had a billion in sales. We still grew 40 percent in certain periods. And that was a crazy run, yes. And that was this global scaling. Partners wanted our traffic. That fit together very well. And yes, that was good timing. The stock market gives you a certain independence. Expedia was already the majority shareholder at that time. But we wanted to continue operating independently. And that's why an IPO was a really good opportunity to present ourselves to our partners as, we're not Expedia, we 're an independent platform

11:45 where we provide a fair marketplace where you can reach travelers. And what market capitalization did you get from the stock market at peak times? I think it was around four billion at the IPO, and then the peak was around eight and a half billion. Eight and a half billion, that is And at that time, even if you look at the original investment of a million, where you then got it , that was almost attractive in the tech world, in the tech world at that time . Today, maybe that's the case with AI startups and such. Yes, but very, very capital. Capital efficient. But then, unfortunately, not everything went right. I think you've halved your sales again. So growth turned into shrinkage. What happened then?

12:31 Yes, I think the biggest event is of course Corona, where we had a near-death experience , where you, I still remember it like it was yesterday, where you saw how a market, how a light switch was turned off . That took a few days. Nobody traveled anymore. First there was Italy. Then Spain. One market after another. Sales simply gone. And there was a billion-dollar sales trajectory there, and then it went down to almost zero. Yes, over 95 percent loss of sales in just a few weeks. And of course your ears are already flapping and you think to yourself, what the hell is going on? Yes. And the question was always, will travel come back? Yes, which mode are you going into now? Yes, that was good. Can you last a year? Do you have to endure this for two, three, four, five years?

13:18 Fortunately, we had over two years. We had over 200 million in the bank from the IPO. That was kind of a pretty good situation. But then you think to yourself, do I still need the team? What topics do we invest in ? And then we went into survival mode, significantly reduced the size of the company, and narrowed it down considerably. What do you do strategically now? Extremely slowed down, survival mode. And for a company that is culturally very focused on collaboration and human-oriented working together, that was very strong. That was a big setback because so many relationships were broken. Strong teams that have been built over years. It was very, very

14:05 traumatizing to experience that when you have to lay off 200 people in two weeks , it really takes its toll. Craziness . And then you also changed your position. You also worked in the finance sector again. You founded something and then came back to your current position as CEO. How did that go, so to speak ? Yes, that was, we founded something in the finance sector for three years with former Trivago colleagues. And then at some point, it was at the beginning of 2023, the founder of Trivago, Rolf, who is still a major shareholder today, called and asked, “Yes, could you imagine coming back?” Trivago is not where it is and has said. We can also put together completely new management.

14:53 And he suggested Jasmine, and André. Today Jasmine is responsible for marketing, and André is responsible for products and technology. And they have helped build Trivago over a decade and made a decisive contribution to its success . And what you can perhaps imagine if, if you lose a lot of people. At one point, people had to leave because we downsized this or that company, but in the course of a pandemic like this, many good people also leave. We couldn't do the marketing we did back then because no one was traveling anymore. Then you won't do any more TV advertising. Simply put. That means there was no longer a team with the skills to truly scale and implement the blueprint that had always worked well for us .

15:39 And I think we have brought with us a great deal of knowledge and also mindset and cultural context , which we have brought in a lot over the last two years . We've done our homework , getting the team back on the right track, getting the strategy back on the right track. And yes, last quarter we grew 22 percent and exceeded all expectations, both internally and externally. So a real turnaround story. This is really exciting for us in tech because we've had such a brutal tech sell-off , especially from smaller companies, so in the stock market segment you're a smaller company compared to Apple. Where companies then rightly lose a lot of value because they, because they wo

16:25 n't make it , because they don't embrace the new world, because they have missed out on AI or other things. But there are also our assessments, companies like yours that are unfairly included in this and say, hey, they, they, they might not even be able to do it, because you have now achieved exactly this turnaround too. The latest figures show this and you are growing strongly again. What does your program look like now? So how do you build the team ? What products are you working on? For example, you've changed something at the checkout so that people come to you more often. So, what does it look like now , after you 've saved it as CEO, at least that's how it looks for now . Why is this just the beginning and why do you look forward to coming to the office every morning ? Yes, I think it was a lot of hard work from the entire

17:12 leadership team, and from many people who were very committed, because I think you have to imagine, after three years. And I think you have to imagine, after three years, how are things going now with the pandemic and depression, where does a company like this stand? Yes, key people have left, but morale is also at rock bottom. How do you get it back up again, how do you achieve success, how do you build confidence again through small successes , so that there is hope and belief in success. I think that was a very central task from a management perspective , to say how hope is there. I think that is what many companies are facing in the world of AI today. Yes, exactly. Yes, I mean, better, yes, this idea of ​​small,

18:21 gradual improvements throughout the company, every single one, has made us very successful, I think, in the last two years. You often have n't seen it in the top line yet , because we did n't focus on what drives short-term success, but invested in brand, long-term initiatives and that showed over a year and a half what we saw under the radar , what is now hitting the top line and that was very strong, first of all a mindset, continuous improvement, we're not going to write the next big project on the wall now, what will motivate us for six months, but rather non-glamorous, improve every touchpoint, be it the TV commercial or the user experience, every touchpoint and that continues to be

19:06 a core of what we do. In the travel sector, it's about taking friction out of every contact point and making everything better , starting with the content and the images, right down to which hotel. In the hotel, the first thing I'll show you is how we can better use machine learning to improve the relevance of hotels. I believe continuous improvement is very core to the product. It's what has improved our conversion rate by 35 percent in the past year, and if you incorporate this, you'll see how your marketing efficiency improves when you have a drastic increase in efficiency through small improvements. That's exactly how Amazon lives it, really, again and again, each piece a little bit better. Most companies, as sad as it is, have this status quo, they are happy with it and to bring in this mindset and then to

19:54 really carry what you have created through the team, that sounds simple but it is really difficult and the worst thing is that you don't see any results at first because it takes time until it compounds and then all of a sudden you say, hey, you're the superstars, yes, but we've seen that in the last two years too, it was really nice with Jeff Bezos, nice interviews about it, where he built it up in the same way and that really impressed us, you too, because we were able to talk to you and understand how you are restructuring the whole thing. For me, I love user experience, a big change with you is that you say that you do some of the bookings on other sites. As a user, I see that less and less and I'm more and more in a login on your platform and then

20:42 the machines do the whole thing between themselves. Maybe you can elaborate on that a little bit. Yes, but that is fundamentally the important thing, the absolutely most important thing, to understand where the value is created. We don't just write any old stories and then be disappointed in six months. Continuous improvement is extremely crucial. Then we - I'll come to that point in a moment - yes, then we invested heavily in our brand again. That was after three months of being there, we ramped up TV advertising again and were also super innovative in that area . We have used AI, we have now won Jürgen Klopp as an ambassador, as a global ambassador. He now speaks twelve languages. Well, you can, we used to have 20 to 30 actors for a global marketing campaign. Today we have Jürgen Klopp, who is globally known and

21:30 who speaks all languages. So using technology to make bigger steps is also part of it. And then we invest 30 to 40 percent in personalization, better search results, and you can even think about how you personalize the website based on your footprint and not just a search result. So we are thinking about how we can enable personalization at all levels. You know, I'm a family, I have kids, so I don't need an adults-only retreat or anything. Or you know, I'm more of a Spain fan or Greece fan and so on. Exactly.

22:16 I am in Greece for a large family with childcare and so on. Exactly. First we see what you click on. Then we see how you move your mouse on the website. Then we'll see which computer you're coming to us with and what we're currently doing. We do active user profiling where we ask you questions. Would you pay a little less? Would you prefer a cheap hotel, a little less central or central? We profile the user to maximize the signaling power . Exactly. It’s

23:17 best if you log in to Trivago once. We have your credit card information. We bought an Israeli tech startup that allows you to book on all booking sites instead of having to go to the 100+ different booking sites you can book on. And we have the vision that you can do the seven there. Yes, this is a path that will probably take two years or more. But we are on a very good path. And the signals as to the extent to which we are doing this are very good. To what extent you can increase the conversion rate if you don't have to go to a partner, but do it with us. You'll have more trust in Trivago than booking with Room XXL, which you've never heard of. And at the same time we build

24:03 a user experience that is smooth. And there you can lift the conversion rate again . And if we can boost it another 10 or 20 percent , then you know what that means in terms of marketing efficiency . And I believe in marketplaces. I believe that if you really... If I am also number 1 in this area, then no matter what kind of rental I offer, as a hotel or Airbnb or whatever, I want to be on your platform. And that means that you then basically have the API. I'm passing my data on to you. On the other hand, only with you can we simply book it with one click and everything will be fine. I think there is a very, very strong dynamic emerging here. Exactly. And we see a certain win-win. Yes, we do a lot of brand marketing.

24:50 This means that we get users who don't even know what price comparison, metasearch, or other search arguments mean. They think we can book them. And we actually segment the user groups into: there are convenience-oriented users who become loyal to Booking and Expedia because they somehow say, time is more important to me, best price. I 'm not that price sensitive. That's about 20, 30 percent of the market. 1.5 trillion in size. Yes, some even say three. As big as the oil market. Yes, the travel market is incredibly large and is still growing by five to ten percent. That's why there's so much music in it. And a lot is still offline. 40 percent of what we can bring online is still offline . Exactly. And at the same time

25:49 we have, so 20, 30 percent are more convenience-oriented, they then go sticky to the other side. And 20, 30 percent are price-sensitive customers who compare prices and don't want to pay too much . And it is important that we log them in with us. Yes, that we give them the proposition that they don't go to Google, but come to us. And there is no product on the market like ours that operates globally. That's actually quite nice. Yes, so we actually just need to make our markets more visible. And the people in our market log into our product. And that's what we're doing, increasing exposure through members and apps , which is what we're currently doing. Yes, I think we would not be anywhere near where we

26:54 are today in the last two years. If you look at the last two years, if we hadn't had AI . On the one hand, we have Klopp or AI technology. We can have everyone speak all languages in a TV ad, and it's not easy to do that well and authentically . And then we use other technology, but we have built the capability to apply that. And perhaps we can do this again, not only do we save tens of millions in production costs, but instead of having a nine-month production cycle for a global campaign, we only have a three-month production cycle, saving several million in production costs and we can let Klopp say what we want. That means you do

27:40 n't have to produce something again to bring in new messaging , you can say whatever you want. You can try out a lot more. It's about the learning loop. Are we able to learn what works? And we measure every TV sport to see how well it works. We have just launched a new campaign, where we launched two TV sports . One of them works 50% better. Wow. Yes, and it's brutal what a difference it makes in how many people you activate who come to the site. Very outspending. I mean, every dollar is... Exactly, and you want to find out which sport works better, why is that, and then come to the site . continue on the timetable. Huge difference, wow. Exactly, and these are things that we try to learn quickly. And AI helps you learn faster.

28:26 And of course to save costs, but to learn faster and be more creative. I think that's the upside that's still there . And what else we do, actually every user who comes to us now will see, you will find out at the hotel level, what makes the hotel special? I don't know, a Michelin-star restaurant or a rooftop bar. And when you go to other sites , you often see, yes, has a spa, has a gym, pretty boring, just kind of tags. With us you can now see what makes the hotel unique. This is all AI-generated. We used to have a 100-person organization that compiled reviews and found USPs. We can do all of this today with AI. We see this as a clear point of differentiation, which we have already rolled out globally to 350 hotels in 10 languages . And what is more experimental

29:11 , but also super exciting, is to introduce Natural Language Search . We have Free Search, which means you can type in whatever you want on Trivago. We launched this at the end of last year. There isn't anything on the market like that where you can just say, I'm looking for a hotel on Route 66 with a pool. Normally you search for a city or a region and narrow down your filter. There you can enter what you want and get semantically relevant hotels, which enables you to do new types of searches . Or I can say, I want a hotel right on the beach, I like to travel, I was just in Greece, I'm looking for a hotel with my family, it should have a kids group, right on the beach and somehow good food. Couldn't you filter using a traditional search?

29:56 Now I can find it all at once and I can run a semantic search across the whole of Greece . I think we're at about seven out of ten in terms of quality. So it's good enough for us to bring it to market , to improve it a lot, to learn a lot. But it's all about quality. That's also a bit of my vision for you - we've talked about it before - which is n't cash flow-relevant today very, very strong in the future : that you are the API for these bookings and also for all the LLMs. So if I'm on ChatGPT, Perplexity, Gemini, whatever today, then that's more and more my daily organizer and I just say, hey, I don't know, what am I going to do next summer?

30:43 And then he puts his global knowledge into it and says, by the way, Namibia or Greece or something, totally great. And if I then say, I have two children and food is important to me eat vegetarian or whatever, where should I go? Then, in my opinion, Trivago will come into play in the future because then you will have the data, the API. So I basically chat with them and then I say, hey, that sounded good, please book it now. That means that on the one hand you provide the data, the data for all these systems and then also the route to book it, because I actually want to be able to . There you are, it's certainly still a few months or years away, I think they'll develop quickly down the road, but that's one more thing

31:29 that really excites me about you. And we have also developed the ability to that then books the hotel for you on the hotel website. You do n't have to go through all this paying anymore , we do it for you. Exactly. whether all the searches will be done via Chat GPT or something like that that's why I think brand will always be central, whether people will just start with you . I think there will be both. I think this is simply an additional revenue stream for you that... Exactly, this is definitely an opportunity . If I may say so ... differentiation from Google, yes. The octopus, so to speak. You have the data and you have your own app, your own brand, where I can also book . There are people who will like the classic UI with filters and so on. There are people who go to your... your AI system. But then there are also people

32:17 who have to book with you from other systems, so to speak , because you are the market leader in aggregating all the data . And the important thing for all these LLMs is that the experience is good. And I have the most data from you. That's the biggest system behind it. Why should I connect to any other API? Because I know the booking will probably work for you. I believe these are completely different pillars, which all complement each other . Exactly, and I get asked a lot, even by investors: "Do you have any relevance in the world of AI? Everyone will now use AI to book travel." Yes, I like to compare it with Google. Google started launching the travel product 15 years ago . Yes, it is far from being the dominant product today. But back then, the message was always, "You can

33:04 pack your bags." Yes, and that's just, I think people underestimate the timeline for AI, it's totally unclear. I have personally... As an investor, I have often made mistakes in the timeline when it comes to certain technological developments. Yes, I'm thinking about 3D printing, I don't know what, which I've always found really exciting, and so have others. I think it's unclear how quickly AI will actually be able to perform Gen I tasks . Then there’s user adoption – how many are actually jumping on the bandwagon? So once these first five, ten, 15 percent of early adopters have used it, many of them will then really jump on the general assistant. And in the end, I think it's more of a compliment

33:50 than marketing gimmicks like they are today. At least for the next five to ten years. Where it will go in ten years, I have no idea. But we are focused on creating value for users and shareholders over the next two years. And that, I think, is what is totally open. And I see this more as an opportunity to make our product much, much better . And I see this more as an opportunity to make our product much, much better . And I see this more as an opportunity to make our product much, much better . And I see this more as an opportunity to make our product much, much better . And I see this more as an opportunity to make our product much, much, much better. And I see this more as an opportunity to make our product much, much better . And can take a lot of friction out of the process. And you see, despite Google Travel, big tech companies and travel companies are very, very successful. And I don't see why that won't be possible in such a large market in the future. Where I see a, where I, fortunately it doesn't affect us that much, where I see a possibility. You are a very optimized person. Many in the business sector are probably very optimized for efficiency. If you go to a city,

34:37 I know the three hotels. If you go to a city, I know the three hotels. Tell AI, please book me one of these three hotels. Tell AI, please book me one of these three hotels. And there is one AI use case that I see very clearly. And there is an AI use case that I see very clearly. And there is an AI use case that I see very clearly. That does n't affect us, but it does affect business travelers who simply want efficiency and where the room isn't that important. That doesn't apply to us, but it does apply to business travelers who simply want efficiency and where the room isn't that important. I think this is a case that AI can handle relatively quickly. I think this is a case that AI can handle relatively quickly. But in the travel sector there is also the point: if you book a hotel via AI, arrive there with your family and that is a big fuck-up, you will have a problem. So, one of the biggest consumer expenses we have in the year is travel. And it's super emotional, you don't want to make a mistake. That means that the path until I trust AI in the travel sector is, I think, relatively long. And that's also the reason why dozens of people today... I see it differently.

35:22 And that's also the reason why dozens of people today... Yes. Travelers use dozens of websites to make their travel decisions today. And the reason is that they want to be very well informed and have trust and confidence that they are booking the right thing. And AI will perhaps improve this a little, but I think there is a long way to go before I get a degree in AI . I see Trivago right there. Because I believe that a Chat-GPT, a Gemini, a Perplexi, whoever else comes along, already has enough on their own shoulders to create a good interface and user adaptation . That is, if he realizes he wants to order a pizza... Yes. Or he wants to book a hotel, then he wants to work with the best data and the best reliability, and that's where he'll take you. I believe that because no matter which hotel I book, I want to do it that way.

36:10 But it's nice, it's another option. Yes. That’s why we love the exchange with management. Yes. You've shown great numbers , you have a core business that's working, and this is an additional option if it works. But I think... This will be very important. You need data sovereignty in specific verticals, and Google and the like won't be able to build that up on their own anymore. They can't do that at all, but in my opinion they are teams in the individual areas. You can see that with Auto 1, for example, which is absolutely number 1 and dominates the used car market. I don't think anyone else wants to go in there. And I believe you have the opportunity to become that API for travel . But that's exactly the beauty of it, it's evolving. You already use AI in all areas. And then, in my opinion, you will become a champion, but we'll see. Yes.

36:56 I also notice this in my own companies. You are in your workflow . You've always written your emails the way you write them. You program how you program. And now you have to go as a top manager and say: Hey, you know what? Have you ever tried doing this with AI? Have you ever tried to prompt this? Then maybe the first result is not perfect, even if it is the right way. How do you and your team approach this transformation? One of my three or two priorities, which are actually connected, is AI transformation. And the second is cultural transformation, which are very closely linked. And with AI it starts with providing the infrastructure, making tools available and not saying:

37:41 No, we can't use them for these and these reasons. We have a small lab where people can try things out on a small scale. If it's good, we'll clear out tools as quickly as possible if they qualify. What we are demanding is, so to speak, that AI initiatives are included in our strategies, in our OKRs, AI transformation is important . And then culturally it is a question: Do we have a workforce and a culture that lives a growth mindset, that lives through curiosity, that is open? And we have promoted this extremely as an expectation in the last year and we have come out of three years of depression where people are rather risk-averse

38:27 and do not necessarily take risks and do not move forward. So that's very strong, we demanded that and then also to promote people who deliver on it, to give them more disappointment and to develop a workforce that is curious , that moves forward and has role models, that can be put in showcase positions , how much value this creates, this whole thing, how much money and upside have we generated with AI through our TV spots. This is perfect for showing opportunities to the workforce , opportunities to the team . And then I see the biggest challenge for us as leaders. I think it's a psychological challenge for leaders to understand that this uncertainty that they feel is increasing

39:14 and that we have to try to create clarity in the midst of uncertainty , in order to perhaps be a point of clarity as a company when the whole world is chaos, to put it extremely. And of course you ca n't do that with false promises , but clarity in terms of strategic direction, clear expectations, performance chats, what is expected of you, what are you delivering, as a manager just being very clear in that direction. And we invest a lot in managers so that they can increase self-awareness, increase resilience and first of all deal with the friction that arises as a result of all the changes

39:59 . And then try to find the clarity and the relaxation that you need to be in a situation like that , to navigate through a situation like that , as relaxed as possible and with, let's say, awareness, to increase your awareness of how you should act now, in which situation and situationally. I believe this is a change that we must make. In the past, we have empowered teams a lot because it was relatively clear where we were going and the teams could learn in the right direction. We are now moving a little more towards having Leadership Expectation Decisiveness , because there is a certain friction that we have to

40:44 demand from talent that we change. In many ways, this goes against human nature. And as a lead, I think we have a very good foundation at Trivago, that we have trust, but often that happens in harmony rather than in conflict. We must enter into healthy conflict, based on trust. And that is what we are strongly promoting now: that we enter into conflict , demand change, and if you have a good foundation on a human level, that helps. But as a lead, I no longer lead through servant leadership and empowerment, but rather I make demands and am more directive. I believe that in a world that is changing faster, where there is more uncertainty and where complexity is increasing, it is all the more important to

41:32 develop clear positions that can then be demanded. And where talented people can handle it well, they are given freedom and opportunities to develop, and at the same time they are allowed to make decisions. That's why it's always so important for us to have direct communication with management, as well as with you - thank you very much for that too - we want to understand exactly what this mindset is and how we deal with it. at a rapid pace, including for us. So also in venture capital or whatever. Suddenly you have machines that can think relatively and that sometimes even produce incorrect results, but how do you do that? And that's what has always impressed us about you too, that you say: Hey, we're going to turn this around, we're going to approach it boldly, we're going to do a turnaround story and now the numbers are correspondingly good, so

42:18 very, very good. Yes, and our focus for all teams is actually two things, yes. We need to be the fastest learning and implementing company in the space . Yes. And this Fanatic Learning is one of our values ​​that we hold very high. And the second thing is, and this also came out of the pandemic , a lot of thinking goes on and theories are put forward and concepts are built and slides are produced and Confluence pages are produced, but in the end it's all worthless if it's not about implementation. And we have pragmatism, implementation, moving forward and not spending the whole day doing user research, asking users what they want. Now, to be explicit, we need to implement a lot, move forward and see what works and what doesn't . And that is a path that

43:04 is absolutely important, yes. And I think most companies are stuck in their thoughts about what we can do and what the risks are, instead of just implementing things and moving forward. And the second point, which we bring in as a mental model , we want a company with 600 people to have as much impact as 6,000. Yes, we don't want to grow in terms of headcount. Yes. If it is perhaps necessary in one area, we will do it, but then we will have to cut efficiencies elsewhere. But the problem is not more people, that has to be solved through automation and technology . And that is something that we are demanding very, very strongly. Yes. Let’s briefly return to the stock. You are listed on the stock exchange, which is why we, as TEQ Capital, are allowed to invest with you . I believe

43:50 the share price also fell by over 90 or 95 percent because of the panic . Can they do it now? In my opinion or in our estimation, you have How are you doing, how do you see the share price right now? Maybe you also want to have a listing in other places. Maybe you can do that briefly. So basically, I mean, at the end of last year, I think November, the company was valued at almost zero. Secure. Yes. And that was, was interesting. And of course we have the underlying effects. Zero, sorry, by the way, means you had cash in your account. And then you basically, when you calculate the enterprise value, i.e. what the company is worth, you subtract the cash, because you already had that.

44:37 Then you were basically at a neutral enterprise value. That was really crazy in my opinion . And of course we were very happy to buy it. But exactly. Exactly. And that was, and of course we always saw what the underlying effects were. And we told you, told other investors, what we honestly saw. And you did n't see it that way in the topline. And with Trivago and also with many other small cap companies, this is of course always the case, the interest is somehow in quality stocks, in big caps. And small caps just fly under the radar. And we noticed that Trivago is not on the radar of many people. We've been working on that. The share price has doubled since then. Or more than doubled since then. But we still believe

45:24 the travel market is worth 1.5 trillion . We have less than 1% market share in the hotel sector, which is about $500 billion . And we always compare it that way. If you come to a hotel here in Bonn, maybe a Trivago guest. Yes, we just have to find the second one. And at the same time, in Europe, in America, South America, in Japan, which is one of our biggest markets, we also have one of the strongest travel brands, after Booking in Europe, for example. And for us it is simply a matter of time until we can revive those who can raise their top of mind again. And that's what we're working on. And that's why we came

46:10 back, because we saw that something might not be priced correctly. And we believe there are great opportunities there. And then we talk to investors who say: Yes, why 2% market share, why not 5%? There is so much possible in the travel market . A lot is still offline. And a growing market, 5-10%, that is so large, there are incredible opportunities. And as a strong brand, as a product, which I consider to be the best for a relevant segment, it is also a question of time for me until we can increase the value . For me too. And AI accelerates that. Yes, for me too, exactly. And for me, you're not an AI loser,

46:55 but a winner, because you're a vertical market leader And now you simply use AI. And whether you then also become part of it through LLMs as an API, etc., those are even bigger visions. And then the company valuation is in my opinion in a completely different place with you. But maybe I can tell you a little bit about the industry. That's the problem. And we really like investing in small and mid-caps. And this year alone, we've had five exits in our small- and mid-cap fund, so to speak, where companies similar to yours were so mispriced that a PI, or private equity, or strategist said: "I'll pay twice the current price on the stock market , and then I'll make three times my money." Because that's their

47:41 company. We saw that in five companies, I think, in our fund within a year . And we have to show how truly, one could say, irrationally small and mid-caps are currently priced. And what is your problem? Then there are the big pots of money. That's a Goldman, a JP, etc., saying, "Yeah, sorry, but the free float is n't enough. I need more transactions, you need to be more present." And that's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. We benefit greatly from this and are able to invest in companies like yours at an early stage. But on the other hand: If you suddenly reach a certain size , if you suddenly trade above 5 euros or 5 dollars, if the free float suddenly goes up, then you suddenly say: "Ah, now I can invest again." Then we saw it too . Then all of a sudden the shares - I don't know if this is investment advice or a recommendation - go up by 300, 400%, but it's crazy how they 're suddenly back up. Because that is the realistic

48:29 price, which is currently so highly compressed . I think it's sometimes crazy what happens to small companies on the stock market. I don't know how you see it. My feeling is that there are probably many companies , like Trivago, where this might be the case . Because of the uncertainty in the market, even the big players are saying this at the moment, the focus is on the big stocks. This is always the case in uncertain times . And it's just a matter of time before things change. Until the pendulum swings back in the other direction. You are now showing numbers. Exactly, and for us the task is to deliver every quarter. We are talking to investors, more actively since the end of last year. And we want to get on the radar first

49:17 . Build credibility. Trivago hasn't delivered for three years . It's understandable that there's a certain amount of skepticism. But now we need to get back on the radar. Promises. We raised our guidance last quarter. That was kind of high single-digit growth for the whole year. We increased that to mid-teens for the full year. Expectations exceeded. And I think we need to continue doing this for a few more quarters. And then the numbers speak for themselves. And then, of course, you have to talk a little bit: Where do you see the opportunities? Which we have done a little bit now. To say: Where do you get a feel for it? Will we somehow stick with 10 percent, 15 percent growth? Or are there opportunities to grow even faster?

50:03 What a great story. A roller coaster ride. Above all, for the founder, who is still a major shareholder . Again, best wishes to him. A very, very important figure in our scene, who has supported many, many projects and founders time and again, thank you Rolf . It's great that you 're back now too. And you do this with your team. And yes, we thank you for allowing us to invest in you. We simply enjoy accompanying you on a journey so on. And I would say, here again, I would recommend So feel free to book there. Unfortunately, I cannot recommend buying the stock . I have not done that here either

50:49 . And I would like to say again , thank you very much for your time. Yes, thank you very much. Lots of exciting things ahead of us. We look forward to further exchanges.