0:00 I have inside information on Jeffrey Epstein and why the US government is reluctant to be more transparent. And I know this because when I was working in government meetings were not how shall we tell the public, but what shall we tell the public? So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth. >> I think people need to know the truth. >> So put on your seat belt. I'm going to tell you everything and all senior people in the US government know everything that you and I have discussed here today. So you've been behind the scenes with some of the most successful, richest, most powerful people on planet Earth. But what is it you do, Gavin? >> So I do protective coverage. You know, any of the ways that wealthy or prominent people might be targeted. For example, the Saudi Arabian government obtained a system which can get into your phone used it on Jeff Bezos. So our
0:46 work was to figure out how it happened. >> Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone? So, I'll tell you in a second, but we're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text, and there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone. Do you have any skepticism about that? >> I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works. >> Lucky you. But all power centers in human history lie. There are some examples of this where we'll start telling the truth about something, but years later, things like cancer causing asbestous and baby powder, 100,000 people dying from heart attacks from opioids. and we'll see it with mass vaccination. >> So, what advice would you give about how to navigate in the world we're living in today to avoid risk threat? >> I've got some core truths. So, first of all,
1:32 guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant subscriber milestone on this show, and roughly 69% of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've ever done anything for you, giving you value in any way, it is simply hitting that subscribe button. And it means so much to myself, but also to my team because when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show a little bit better every single week. So, that's a favor I would ask you. And um if you do hit the subscribe button, I won't let you down. And we'll continue to find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. Means the world. And uh yeah, let's do this.
2:19 >> Gavin, we have a mutual friend and that mutual friend actually sent me a voice note late last night. Here is what the voice note says. >> I'm calling it this crazy hours. I found out that you're interviewing a dear friend of mine, Gavin Debecker, I think in 2 days. I think on the 13th. He is an extraordinary human being, extraordinary soul. He comes from a a very tough background. But what he's done to move from that background to becoming probably the single greatest security expert in the world. He designed the systems that are used to protect the Supreme Court. I've met him decades ago when there was a threat happening to a former girlfriend of mine and then I was getting threatening letters and he deciphered the letters in micros secondsonds, got the FBI involved and put a stop to it all. It was
3:05 extraordinary what he did. Wow. >> That was Tony Robbins for anyone that didn't recognize >> I recognize >> the voice. Yeah, it'd be crazy if someone didn't. >> But it got me incredibly incredibly curious because he said lots of things there that I found fascinating. >> Um, the first one I'm going to start with is he described you helping him with a personal situation in his life. And I guess this beggets the question, >> what is it you do for people like Tony Robbins? What is it you do for famous people, for world leaders? What is it you do, Gavin? The main function of my company is anti-assination. So we develop and deploy anti-assination strategies. Under that under assassination which you can consider the worst possible outcome um are lesser outcomes like other kinds of crimes uh
3:52 destruction of of reputation uh threats that are designed to cause anxiety and fear. We have a division that does assessment of threats and management of threats. We have a division that does actual protective coverage. That's the biggest division, meaning actual physical protectors, fit, young, capable people, not uh retired ex- cops who are overweight and on their second career, but uh you know, people who are who are really trained for this specific field, armored vehicles, modifications to homes, basically everything that fits into the category of preventing uh uh or disrupting uh uh efforts to do tissue damage. So, we're in the business of preventing tissue damage. And who are some of the names that you do this for and have done this for over the years? >> All of the names that I do it for are uh
4:39 never spoken by me. So, uh I don't say who clients are and I don't say who they aren't because if I say to you so and so isn't a client, uh that is information that might reveal that somebody else is or something you heard is true or not true. The way I can describe it to you though is to say that it's if you took the 20 people you would assume uh fit into this category or the 50 um most of them are clients. >> I mean according to the internet you sort of reference certain things before because these people have spoken or you know you've been seen in photos. >> That's right. If a client identifies me or it happens because I testify in a court case or something that's a different animal. It just doesn't come from I view myself as sort of like a a psychiatrist or a doctor. I wouldn't be the one revealing it.
5:24 >> And some of those names that have been revealed by others are Jeff Bezos, Elizabeth Taylor, Sher Madonna, Barbara Stysand, and many, many, many more. From government officials to royalty, etc., etc. What was Tony referring to when he said that you helped him with a situation with his girlfriend, a threat, found out that it wasn't who people thought they were, >> right? Surely, he was referring to a case I'll never reveal, and I won't even acknowledge he's a client. >> You won't even say he's a client. >> I won't say it. if you if you have it from some other source. >> Tony said it. >> I I understand your interrogation is makes all the sense in the world, but I just don't say it. I don't talk about clients. There's a bunch of reasons, but most of all, just absolute confidentiality. I know it's weird. Apologies. >> But I heard you talk about the Jeff Bezos situation. >> Uh you heard me talk about uh uh cyber
6:10 security and and the vulnerability of phones. Uh, and the Bezos situation is a little bit different in that I was involved very publicly in it, but clearly with permission of my client and and organized with my client. Same thing as when I testify in a court case, there's no secrecy about it. I'm doing it, but it doesn't mean that I'll then do it everywhere. And and so in that case where you did have Jeff's permission, the the background context was there was a newspaper that was going to publish that he was having an affair with I think his current wife who wasn't his wife at the time, Lauren Sanchez, and you were called upon in that scenario to figure out what was going on and you were able to solve that. >> Yes. >> What are you able to talk about there? >> Well, I'll think back to what's already been what's already been public. Uh and it won't be from me. It won't be
6:57 anything about the client, but it will be about the Saudi Arabian government, which at that time had just obtained a u a system called Pegasus 3, which can get into your phone remotely. It doesn't require a click of any kind, meaning you don't have to acknowledge anything. It can get in. It's called a no click exploit. And it could do everything in your phone from 7,000 miles away that you could do holding the phone in your hand. even if it was off, could turn on the camera, could turn on the microphone. It exists. It's a very real thing made by the Israelis. And the Saudi prince MBS had just gotten it. And he used it on a group of dissident around the world. He also used it on
7:43 Jeff Bezos. According to the United Nations, according to lots of things that have been public, our work was to a figure it out, figure out how it happened. In those days, I didn't know what Pegasus 3 was. I didn't know what this system was. But the instrumental or perhaps useful thing for you and your audience to know is that there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone if a government wants you. And the reason I say there's no stopping it is that even when Apple puts out a new solution uh which they do an update uh that you know breaks some particular exploit thousands of people around the world immediately start working on the next exploit. So if I said to you here's a phone and we've modified it and it's great Mr. President
8:30 here you can use this phone for your confidential conversations. Uh in a month it won't work anymore. And so I I'm able to tell clients and friends and now you and your audience there are a lot of things being offered for sale that you know supposedly protect the confidentiality of your phone calls for example or your texts. Nothing will work reliably. There is no solution to that problem that is reliable. >> Nothing. >> Yeah. There is there devices sold. There's all variety of things. But the reality is that even if something worked, even if I said to you, here's this cool new such and such phone that will protect you, it'll only protect you for a while because there's a constant effort to improve the exploits. And also I have to say people are somewhat reluctant and maybe even lazy. I'll put
9:16 myself on the list uh and I'll put you on the list without even knowing you. We're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text. And uh I have a dear friend and client who every text and every email that he sends also goes to his executive assistant and everybody knows it. And what happens is it controls and influences his behavior. So when you send me that off-color joke that I wouldn't want to see on television, he responds differently. He doesn't say, "Oh, that's great." And add another topping line on top of it. He because he knows that his assistant in the other room is seeing that. And so the best we can all do is be be watchful what we say and have no pretense of of privacy or confidentiality because it simply does
10:02 not exist. Period. The US government got into the phones of all of our allies, the prime ministers, chancellor of West Germany, uh prime minister of England, president of France. This is a game that's going on all the time and uh and privacy is just not part of the new world. Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone? >> Well, the again from what's been public, the founder of Amazon was also the owner of the Washington Post. And the Saudis had killed Kosoji, who was a journalist for the Washington Post. And the Washington Post then started putting out an Arabic edition. That didn't feel good for the Saudis. And then they really went after the I'll call him the head of state. He's the prince but but his
10:47 father was alive and was actually the head of state but they really went after NBS. I think uh Bezos was a kind of adversary in that regard. Additionally, the Saudi sovereign fund developed an Amazon competitor called something like N or something like that and so they were concerned about that and they were also doing deals with Amazon and so they could get economic advantage by seeing what the various executives are texting to each other. So there was a lot of a lot of moving parts to that. So all these things I've just shared with you were highstakes matters going on around the time that Kosoji was killed and that the western countries of the world were objecting to this assassination team of his going around and and killing people and and getting into their phones. >> In early 2019, Jeff Bezos publicly
11:32 accused the US tabloid the National Inquirer of attempting to blackmail and extort him by threatening to publish intimate photos including what he described as a nude below the belt selfie of him and his then partner Lauren Sanchez. Bezos wrote a blog post saying AMI emailed his lawyer and security adviser Gavin Debeca's council threatening to publish personal photos and texts unless he and his team publicly stated that the tabloid's coverage of him was not politically motivated. >> Yeah. What they wanted me to do, the Inquirer and they negotiated with me and my lawyer over this that I was to go public and say two things. I was to say it was not politically motivated and it was not influenced by outside actors i.e. the Saudis and that there was no hacking involved. My question was, why the hell do you want me to say those two
12:18 things specifically? And my I already knew the answer, of course, because there was outside influence and there was hacking. Their request for me was so strange that we didn't go along with it. Bezos ultimately wrote a medium post talking about it publicly and saying, "Hey, if if if I can't stand up to this, then where is a regular person?" And ultimately those pictures were never published. >> Yeah. I can't I won't even comment on whether those pictures exist because they were doing a fascinating thing by the way. They were it's sort of like selling you land in in Florida that's marsh land and doesn't exist. They were doing an extortion on a thing they didn't even have. All right. So it's kind of a double crime. It's an extortion and fraud. >> It's interesting. You know, we we start talking here about digital coms and that
13:04 type of security with everything that's going on at this exact moment in time with all these Epstein files and there's a big conversation, you know, because now we can see 3,000 3 million documents and many of them are emails that people have sent at different times. Some of the most famous people in the world have sent emails to Epstein and now those are all out there in the public to see. I wondered what your take was on all of this stuff. You must be watching this stuff from like through the lens that you've built your career and uh you must have an interesting opinion. >> Some of it I I don't talk about because I have a fair amount of inside information and I'm just watchful about not getting near the line. >> What do you mean by inside information? I mean information that that I might have gotten from uh I'm characterizing it carefully that I might have gotten from government agencies that are clients or that I might have gotten
13:50 because uh clients were uh were implicated like I learned today for example this morning on the way over here that I'm in the Epstein files. >> Oh, really? >> And here's the way I'm in there is that someone sent Epstein an article that I wrote called Fooling Ourselves into war. And so uh somebody sent that uh article which is an article I really like by the way uh published in in Huffington Post at the time and um they sent that to Epstein. So that's an example of being in the Epstein files and yet obviously never having met Epstein. But I have a few clients who and friends who the Epstein group made approaches on and failed. Meaning they tried to get them and failed. I'll give you one story without naming the person, of course. He
14:37 goes to meet with Epstein in New York to ask for money for a charity. And and Epste is perceived as this big billionaire, which he was not, by the way. I'll tell you in a second. And Epste is in a robe. And they're across the desk just like you and I are. And Epstein says, "Hey, um, they're finishing the meeting." He says, "Hey, I'm going to get a massage." Hence my robe. Do you want to get a massage? And through the hallway, my friend can see a massage table and a room and a very cute girl who's the massage therapist, right? Dressed like a massage therapist. And so he happened to say no. In fact, interestingly, he happens to not like massage, which is itself, you know, a lot of people would say yes and might even think it would improve my relationship with this guy, Jeffrey Epstein, who I perceive as this rich guy
15:22 that I'm trying to get money from my charity. Um, had that happened, what a different world for that person. What a different life. Because in that room is cameras and then eventually audio. It didn't start off with audio, but audio was added later. And then you're getting a hand job, if I'm allowed to say hand job, from somebody who you don't even think about their age, but turns out to be 17, and you are in a world of trouble for the rest of your life. And that's a big piece of what was going on with Epstein with cameras in that apartment in New York and eventually audio cameras and eventually audio at the island. My take on it uh and certainly my public take is that there was a profound uh uh
16:10 blackmail operation going on to the benefit of probably more than one government, but at least one government. And when I said a moment ago he wasn't a billionaire, he wasn't a billionaire. For one thing, the his earning path is highly suspect. I'll first tell you what he was. What he was is a construct. He's a created construct. Money, wealth, private jet, private island, fun, not married, young girls, lots of things. So, he was a construct. the money uh $500 million of money came from Les Wexner who's a wealthy guy who uh owns or owned I don't know what he's doing now uh Victoria's Secret notator to the state of Israel and $500 million was transferred to Epstein along with power
16:56 of attorney to use it and invest it in the ways he saw fit. Quite an unusual uh you know I'm mildly wealthy but I'm not sending you $500 million. I'll tell you that the idea that you're that you're doing this is itself extraordinary, but it was probably the funding mechanism for this construct. While it's a real name, uh, Jeffrey Epstein and he has a real birth certificate and grew up in a real way, the picture that is presented to the world is not authentic. It is not accurate to who he was. And the more you dig into this story, which of course people are doing so much now because of these uh 3 million uh documents so far and videos by the way and photographs, there's a lot of material there. The uh it's very interesting to people right now and and and more to be learned. But
17:42 you know what was actually going on? Why in the world would anybody say, "Well, there are national security implications to some of this content. That's why some things are redacted." What would that be? Why would the prosecutor who prosecuted him in Florida and provided one of the most unusual plea bargain deals in world history and certainly unique in American history which is imagine I've got you I'm a US attorney I've got you on some crime and you say okay I'm going to plead guilty I'm going to serve my time but please let my accountant go and please don't prosecute my wife because all she did was deliver the stuff and she didn't wasn't involved in anything and so Those are called unindicted co-conspirators. So I make a deal with you and I say, "Okay, you go to jail for the 8 months
18:28 and we will leave the unindicted co-conspirators unindicted. We won't prosecute your wife, your son, your your accountant or what have you." That's a very normal process. It's it's a it's a bargaining process, basically. However, in the Epstein case, the US attorney gave him a deal that said uh that we would not prosecute unnamed co-conspirators. Holy Who's that? Who's unnamed co-conspirators? Unnamed co-conspirators could be 50 people. It could be 75 people. The guy who gave that sweetheart deal became the secretary of labor. He was at that time the US attorney for for Florida. He was asked, "Why did you give that sweetheart deal?" Because the deal is ridiculous. Unnamed co-conspirators will be exempt from prosecution. And and
19:16 he said, "I was told he belonged to intelligence." and then he had to resign because of this. There was a lot going on with with with Epstein uh the person who I mean there's so much of this but the person who uh sort of brought Epstein into the world of power and got him his job at I think Morgan Stanley I could have that wrong but one of those big finance companies was William Bar's father. William Bar was the attorney general who was the US attorney general when Epstein was killed or died in prison depending on your choice of of reality. So there's so much there but I won't be the first guest Steven that you've had uh that says that um it was an intelligence operation. Why the US government is reluctant to be more uh
20:02 transparent? Some of it is national security. Some of it is, let's imagine an ally of ours, uh, is involved in in that operation. So, there's a reluctance and there's a question. It's a little bit like UFOs. Could the public handle it is the question that's always asked in these cases. Meaning, could the public handle it if, for example, the UK was running an intelligence operation inside the United States to control senators and congressmen and powerful executives and powerful figures and scientists? Could we handle it? Could the US public handle it? My take personally, absolutely. Yes. >> So, you believe that he was an intelligence asset and it sounds like you believe he was an intelligence asset potentially by a US ally?
20:48 >> Yes. >> So, who is that ally? >> Israel. >> You believe that Epstein was an Israel >> intelligence asset? >> Yes. Yes, I do. And uh and Glain Maxwell, just for additional background, but everybody can find it. Her father was an Israeli intelligent asset who was so revered. His funeral ceremony was held in Israel, was attended by the prime minister, by I think the last four or five, by every living head of Mossad attended. And there were words used in eulogies like he did things for Israel that uh the world will never know about. There's a a lot of good connection there and a lot of good connective tissue. Um, some of which I've shared with you because it's public and some of which I'm not sharing, but that is uh that is indeed what I believe. Yes. And
21:34 >> not just me, by the way. I you might already be there. And you've certainly had another guest sit here and and uh former CIA guy uh Kira Cow, how do you say his last name? >> Yeah. >> Uh am I close to >> You're close. It's closer than I would get. >> Okay, good. And he was point blank in saying Israel. So there's no there's no direct evidence. But what people are essentially doing is putting the pieces together to make a picture. >> There is direct evidence. There's just not direct evidence I'm sharing at this moment. But there's the there's plenty of evidence that that has been public already, some of which I've shared. I mean, I could I could do it for 40 minutes, but everybody can just go to chat GPT. And you know, if you ask Chad GPT, make the best case for this. A good thing for viewers to remember. Make the best case for dot dot dot whatever it is. If you ask the first answer you get if you ask a
22:21 straight question will always be the official narrative. >> I've done exactly that because you said it. I I asked Chi make the best case for Epstein being an Israel spy. Here is what it said. The case that Jeffrey Epste functioned as an Israeli intelligence asset rest on a pattern alignment rather than direct proof. He ran a sexual sexual compromise operation resembling known intelligence compromat tradecraft. >> Compromat. Yeah, like it's a Russian word that means we compromise you. >> Had wealth and access far beyond his formal career and operated with unusual legal protection for years. His close partnership with Gla Maxwell, whose father had documented intelligence ties fuel suspicion, as does reporting by journalists who say Epstein's activities were discussed in intelligence adjacent circles. The cameras and the microphones
23:08 hidden in his apartment and his home. How do we know they were there and why? Well, how I know they were there is a little bit different from how everybody knows they were there. And I don't know enough about the entire history of the FBI piece, but I'll tell you a funny part of the FBI piece. When they went to execute a search warrant at that apartment after his more recent arrest, they found and even photographed a bunch of CDROMs or discs of some kind that were labeled, but they didn't take them. They said, "We'll get a warrant and we'll be back for those." and they came back after a mere six days and it was all gone. So where it is, I don't know. Does the US government have it? Does somebody else have it? I just don't know the answer.
23:54 But I know from very direct information regarding the island and the apartment. I don't know about New Mexico. I just don't happen to know. Another house that he owned that there were cameras and then eventually audio. Audio was added. Oh, also testimony, by the way, pardon me. testimony from girls who said girls who worked there and visited there a lot who said that in a small room near to the right of the front door was a whole thing of videos where the recording was done. >> And can you explain to me why recording videos and audio of people getting those kinds of uh doing those kinds of things would be a useful asset for this foreign adversary to have. >> Sure. Uh, you know, blackmail is not
24:39 always done by calling you up and saying, um, you know, hey, Stephen, I'm going to hurt you in the following way if you don't do A, B, or C. The other version is is far better, which there's is even alluded to in some of the now released material, which is he calls and he says, "Stephen, I've got terrible news. Do you remember you had that massage from Cindy? You know that girl, Cindy?" "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember." Well, she recorded something. She had something in her bag. She made a recording. And I got worse news. Stephen, the girl's 16 and a half. And now, by the way, you are stomach drops, diarrhea. You are in a world of stress right now just hearing that. And he, instead of being your blackmailer, becomes your rescuer. He says, "I can
25:24 handle it. I can handle it. I can handle it. She's got the recordings. I don't know where they are, but I can handle it. I can handle it. I can handle it. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry." And he owns you now. forever. If you were involved in a naked experience with someone who's underage, and there's a video of it and audio of it as well, you will do anything that you are asked to do that is within reason. Very few people would have the character and the stamina to do what you describe Bezos doing, which is that he wrote a public letter saying, "A very unusual thing happened to me the other day. I'm being blackmailed by the National Enquirer." and here's what they said. That's very, very rare. And so, you know, a senator, a congressman, he owned a lot of people.
26:13 Do you have any skepticism about that? >> I don't have skepticism. I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works. >> Lucky you. >> And I just have a lot of ignorance to like, you know, because you hear about these things in almost like movies. And uh it appears that we're all kind of witnessing something we might have regulated just to the movies happened before our eyes. And even when you know I saw some of the emails coming up on my feed of things that Epstein had emailed people, he seemed to be continually inviting people to hang out with him in a way that is quite atypical. Now maybe I'm just an introvert, but I'm not. He he was like aggressive in his coms to people saying, "Come and hang out with me. I'm doing this thing at this dinner party. Come to my island. Are you in the area?" and he
26:59 was succeeding in getting a lot of people to come and visit his his homes and his island. And yeah, it's uh >> by the way, Stephen, in the circumstance you are in today, you might well have heard from from Jeffrey Epstein. You might well have had somebody who knows you who says, "Hey, there's this guy in New York. Loves your show. Uh just terrific." And and all of a sudden, you're getting that invitation. And you're getting that invitation through someone you know and kind of like >> like Joe Rogan did. >> I don't know. But like so many people. Well, Joe Rogan said it. >> Oh, if he's been public about it, I'm just not going to be the one to say it, but I I got it. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. Joe Rogan publicly la last week said that, and it's in the files, that a former guest, I think it was Lawrence Krauss of his show, invited him to come and meet Jeffrey Epstein. And the emails show that Jeffrey Epstein
27:45 was trying to get Lawrence to bring Joe Rogan in. Joe Rogan said like absolutely abs well this what Joe Rogan's said absolutely not, >> right? >> And was creeped out about it and never went and was never involved. Well, the point I was just making is that in your present circumstance with the, you know, enormous audience and and the reach of this show and and all your work, the small videos, etc. Um, of course you're a terrific person because now I can call you up and say, uh, hey, will you have this person on? Or I can say, hey, will you be really skeptical about this topic and will you say, I don't believe it. And will you say, I think it's wrong or will you say, I think it's anti-semitism or will you will you say such and such? And brother, you will. the the moment where I started to, you know, really understand the blackmail angle um was when I started reading some of the
28:31 particular emails that Epstein had sent to himself. >> One in particular where he sent himself an email regarding Bill Gates. He's alleging that Bill Gates has slept with He's sending himself an email. >> Yes. >> Alleging that Bill Gates has slept with someone, some some Russian prostitute, and that he got an STD, an extrammarital affair, all of these allegations. And when I read that email, um, then I thought, oh, you know, he was he was a black mailer. >> He was definitely a black mailer and he's collected all these rich and famous people and he has them in his pocket now. >> Just to close off then on this uh point of Epstein before we move on, you said they they've released some of the files and you said they hadn't released other files. Yes. And you have implied that was because they basically can't >> release these other files necessarily. >> Well, I don't I don't know what I think
29:16 more is coming. I think more will be released, but there are certainly files, including files even right now, even yesterday, though there's a law. Uh, as you may know, Congress voted for a law to release everything unredacted. Um, there's still a lot of redacted stuff. So, there's more to come. And, uh, will some be redacted? Sure. Is anybody going to sit here like I did today and say, "Hi, I'm the secretary of blah blah blah, and let me just tell you what was really going on. Uh, you know, I'm the head of the CIA, and let me tell you what was really going on." Not likely. >> But Trump knows. He knows who Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein really was. >> I would say all senior people in the US government and and many many people in general know everything that you and I have discussed here today. >> No secret. By the way, what do you
30:02 think? Let's imagine somebody came forward and said this country described as our greatest ally. I would say our greatest ally is the UK >> uh based on on history. But, uh, Israel is an important ally in the Middle East and it's a it's a democracy and it's more of a western government. I get it. Um, but what do you think? The the the country comes out and somebody officially says, "Okay, let me tell you what was going on." Do you think the American public can handle it? >> I think they either way now deserve to know the truth. Whether they can handle it or not is probably secondary to whether they I think people need to know the truth. We've I think like the problem is people have been like partially traumatized by all of this stuff and so now I think the remedy is full transparency.
30:49 >> I agree and by the way uh this is close uh because we we got a lot of information whereas you know 5 weeks ago or or eight weeks ago people were saying oh there's nothing more that's it that's all there is. I mean, this is a big step and I think it's a big step as big a step toward transparency as uh probably as I've seen in my lifetime by a government. The exception would be if it's not a government what Elon did after buying Twitter, the release of the Twitter files. That was a very impressive thing of letting three journalists come in and just go through everything. I think it would be awesome if the US government ever, Governments don't do this very often, but if they ever said, "Okay, everybody, put on your seat belt. I'm going to tell you exactly what happened with the JFK assassination
31:34 or exactly what happened with the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Senator Robert F. Kennedy, when he ran for president." There are some examples of this in US history where it feels like after about 25 years, we'll start telling the truth about something. 50 years ago, Johnson and Johnson went to uh to the FDA and they said, "Look, our baby powder, you know, that stuff that you put on the baby and you breathe and the mother breathes. Well, it's got asbestous in it and it causes cancer." And the FDA said, "Well, thanks for bringing this to our attention. We'll begin to study how much asbestous is an allowable amount." Now, they never considered zero, which is what I'd want on my baby or you'd want on your baby. and they began to study and then they studied for a while and they studied for a while and lo and behold 40 years had gone by and they hadn't come out with a
32:20 ruling to say there shouldn't be any asbestous in in Johnson and Johnson baby powder when did they come out with that ruling by the way last year end of 2024 after 52 years. So at the beginning the government is saying asbestous no what are you talking about Agent Orange the same story Agent Orange material used in Vietnam for defoliation uh hurt people killed people and caused birth defects in their kids including American soldiers lots of them the government knew it they had tested it on 40 lab mice and lab mice don't have a good life generally anyway they don't have good life expectancy but in this case 38 died within 5 days what the government do with that information? Oh, put that in a top secret file and get rid of that. And
33:07 then it sits for a long, long time and the Institute of Medicine says, "Agent Orange hurting people. What are you talking about?" No. And they lie and they lie and they lie and then finally 20 25 years later, okay, yeah, sorry, we were wrong. It does it does cause birth defects. You see that same story with uh breast implants, silicone breast implants. You see that same story with uh baby formula uh with baby food which has arsenic in it. I don't want any arsenic in baby food but deny deny deny deny and we'll see it with mass vaccination because after some years there will be okay yes there is a good chance that it causes myocarditis already been admitted by the way pericarditis uh cancer in young people it it was a bad product sorry but they
33:54 won't do it a year away from a thing and they obviously as we can see every day they won't do it five years away it's very easy to see and to locate when the US government or any power center. This is I'm an American. I'm all for America. But all power centers in human history uh lie. Knowing that they are lying does not tell you the truth, however. Meaning knowing that Oswald did not act alone as a shooter from the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository, if he was a shooter at all. Knowing that does not tell you who was the shooter. So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth. When I grew up, I felt I feel like I was very naive to the nature of how the world really operates. And the more I've done podcasts and frankly, you
34:41 know, you you you get invited to interesting things and you meet like rich people and famous people and billionaires. And I went to Davos this year, which I think people think makes me some kind of like I don't know, I wasn't if there was if the Illuminati at Davos, they didn't invite me into that room. But I got to like I got to see like really powerful people and world leaders and all those kinds of things. And I've sat here and interviewed so many CIA spies and I've learned that there are things going on out of plain sight. So the version of reality that the average person has as they go through their life, how has the work you've done over the last several decades of your career shifted your belief about the version of reality that actually exists? Like how how are they different? >> So I I can I can answer it easily because I was just like you. I would say I was naive. And in fact, by the way, I want to quickly acknowledge that I'm probably naive today, even with what
35:28 you've heard, because there may be a level above the level above the level above that that I'm not seeing or I'm choosing not to see. I can tell you the exact evolution for me, not dissimilar to you. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I believe the courts will always come up with a fair decision. I believe that the IRS will only collect uh money and destroy people with good reason, and they won't do it with bad reason. I believed everything and the a lot of it right up until co by the way right up until seeing what went on with both mass vaccination and the the mass control through fear here's what I want to tell you I've learned it's not that um unusual I think I think it's easy to to embrace which is that are human beings
36:13 the same as they were a thousand years ago are human beings the same as they were in Caesar's time what did Caesar do by the way pick a a Roman emperor. Whatever the they wanted to do, they had sex with who and what they wanted. 8 years old, 10 years old, boy, girl, whatever it may be. Even in King Farooq's time in Egypt, one of the last kings of of Egypt, if you were a house guest, they'd say to you, you know what? We're going to have dinner at 6. We can send somebody to your room. Do you want a young boy or a young girl? No shame to it. No problem whatsoever. The rich and powerful people like the ones you were describing at Davos often go from, "I already have all the money. I've already had all the fame. I've already had all the influence. What do I want to do now?" And sometimes they want to do
36:58 forbidden things. Have an affair. Keep a girl in an apartment. These are easy, right? Uh, cheat on my wife. These are easy still. 14-year-old girl. Uh-oh. Not getting so easy anymore, but I've done all the other stuff. And that's what the Epstein piece appeals to, which is the forbidden. I want to be very concise in in answering this question about what changed uh in terms of my view, how I've gotten, you know, started where I started. First of all, I worked in government, worked in the Reagan administration. I lied. I did things that were lies that were deceitful several times in my career. Uh I can give you examples in a minute if you want, but uh you know to to make a prosecution work. I I reached a bit uh to get somebody some bad guy who was trying to kill a client uh you know uh
37:43 prosecuted or or in in custody for a longer period of time. Um I was in many meetings where the questions were this thing happened not how shall we tell the public but what shall we tell the public? How shall we spin this thing? This is the norm in every corporate uh boardroom in America. It's not, oh, there's there's a cancer causing asbestous in the baby powder. I guess we better let everybody know. That's not the meeting. The meeting is, let's notify the FDA and say it's under study. And so if we get asked, we'll get get through this thing. Who goes to jail, by the way, in these corporations for the they do, opioids, etc. My god, a 100,000 people dying from heart attacks from from a pain pill, for example. Uh
38:28 Vio for God's sake. Uh the I mean it's it's unbelievable and nobody gets in trouble, right? Companies are fined. Do you know what the fines mean to these companies? In in that new book I gave you, Forbidden Facts, I I lay out what all the pharma companies have been fined criminally, what it cost them and what they made nonetheless, right? And of course they made the right decision because financially they they did very well. But I want to get to the concise part. Look at world history as a pie chart, right? The entire thing is tyranny as a government method, as a control method. Just a tiny sliver is uh representative democracy. A little bit starting in Greece, uh Western Europe, the United States, tiny sliver. So our
39:14 norm, Stephen, is tyranny. That is the norm for human beings. And what happens to that tiny sliver that I'm describing? That tiny sliver always moves toward totalitarianism. >> What does that mean? It means that the the representative democracy we have let's say in the UK which is pretty stressed right now in terms of of freedom of speech or in the United States moves toward totalitarianism in that it says it starts with we pass a law and if you know the the US constitution says if there isn't a law prohibiting it you can do it and for government it says if there isn't a law allowing it you cannot do it that's the US constitute itution. That's the US method. Well, look what it's become. A law gets passed and then regulators,
40:01 unelected officials, go nuts on interpreting that law the way they want to and applying it the way they want to. And so the the it moves toward totalitarianism. 40,000 new laws passed in the United States every year. How many rescended? Almost none. >> So where are we now? here in the United States where we both asked that or in the UK where are we in the arc of history because it kind of does seem to move in sort of cycles >> now the we if you're talking about where are we now like western society or the US empire in decline and first of all is it an empire obviously right we have 760 military bases overseas 760 we have a larger budget for what we call defense
40:48 now called war since Trump has changed the name to Department of War more accurately. Um, we have a larger budget than every other country in the world combined for military spending. How many overseas bases does China have? I think it's one. Now, I'm not saying China's all lovely. I'm just saying they have a different method. They have a method closer to what we had in the 60s, which was to come in with with beneficial help. We'll redo your roads, etc., etc. So, we're an empire and we're an empire in decline. And a moment ago when I said that that tyranny is the normal state of affairs for uh how people are governed. How is it exercised? Through fear. Always through fear. Fear is the method that causes division. And division is
41:33 the fuel of power. Meaning you want the population to be divided. You want the left and the right. You want the the uh Trumpers and the and the and the Democrats and the forever Trumpers and the never Trumpers. Division is the fuel that all world leaders relish. I give you the example in the cleanest terms. The king and the queen look over the castle wall and when they see their subjects fighting, they high-five each other because if the if they're fighting with each other, they're not coming over the wall. And there's always a wall. And but if they're not fighting with each other, that's a big problem because then they're coming over the wall because everybody knows in their heart, wait a minute, these are living in
42:19 absolute luxury while I don't I can't afford to feed my kids. They their their motorcades and today and in those days they're, you know, beautiful ornate uh wagons pulled by by a bunch of horses go by and splatter mud on me in the street. What really is the difference? I mean, royalty is such a scam. >> So, what happens to the Western world if we're in a declining empire? >> I give you the the optimistic version because I have a dear friend happens to live in Cape Town who helps me with this sometimes because like anybody when I look a lot at uh at at what happens, I can get discouraged. I can get cynical. It's not a good place to live. I think uh Tony maybe even he said it on your show Tony Robbins which is uh you know
43:06 that what you focus on will determine uh the quality of your life. So I can focus on the pharma companies and all the they're doing or I can focus on on the beauty of of nature and spend more time in nature and spend more time with my kids etc. So my optimistic answer which comes from a dear friend Nick Hudson in in Cape Town is that even if empires decay and and social decay is is outside this studio. It's in London. It's in New York. It's in Los Angeles. It's in Seattle. It's in Portland. It's unavoidable. Take a drive in Los Angeles. You know it. Every freeway on-ramp, not some. Every single one of them has tents underneath it with people living there. That is not good news. And so, but here's the good news part of it.
43:52 The optimistic part of it is that survival and thriving always prevails and it does not rely on these systems. Meaning, you are who you are as a in the spiritual sense or or in the scientific sense, whatever way you want to look at yourself as a as a collection of energy that doesn't need that body by the way, right? The energy doesn't go anywhere when that body is done. Uh meaning it's the energy is still there. It's not destructible. And uh so it's indestructible. So um you are this this being this awareness this consciousness. And if around us when we go outside here today all the buildings are gone and and social decay has accelerated are we going to be okay? And the answer is yes. What happens now? We're living in the forest and now I say Stephen you're
44:39 pretty good at carpentry right? Come join us. And you say you're good at planting sweet potatoes. We need some of that. Let's do that. and small populations of people begin again, commence again, even after nuclear war, after a variety of things. And I know it's crazy to some people, but I take my my hope and my optimism from that fact, which is that it doesn't rely upon the electricity working. It doesn't rely upon the plumbing working and the sewage system working. And eventually there's enough of the earth, natural earth, for us to do what has happened before, which is start again. Give you a very fast aspect of this. Thousand years ago, there's a thousand little governments.
45:25 There's shoguns in Japan. There's villages. There's a guy has 300 people and he's the chief. Then it becomes what it was in your life and my life, which is about 190 countries. But those 190 countries are really about five power centers, right? There's NATO, there's there's Brexit, there's the the oil producing countries. And eventually that five power centers will come to two power centers. The West, US, and China is my prediction, but it'll be somebody else's prediction. Can do it differently. And then those two are standing in a room together. And one has to kill the other. That's the course of history. That's how it goes. That's how it goes in every geographical area in history, which is we've got 30 villages and if I can find your village,
46:10 we'll take the women, we'll take the children, and we'll kill the men. And it's just a matter of math. How many of there are of you and how many are there of of our group? It's I think it's somewhat inconceivable especially for people of my generation to think that the US is at all at some point going to be at war with China because we've never you know we never experienced a world war but because the stakes are now so high with nuclear weapons a war theoretically wouldn't be like previous wars it would be catastrophic. >> So it's it's unimaginable. Some people say now nuclear wars have sorry nuclear weapons have now stopped us from getting into World War II as easily and therefore it won't happen. >> Yes. Some people believe in that general concept of mutually assured destruction which is that neither side will will do it. But you said it's almost impossible
46:57 for you to imagine or words to that effect. Um uh I want to help you uh with that imagining and it goes like this. We are currently at war with Russia. We are not supporting the the war in Ukraine only. We are at war with Russia because we are providing satellite information, electronic warfare strategies, drone strategies, providing targeting information, and that is war today. That is war. War is not just the guys on the battlefield with rifles. That's the low-end element. The high-end element is supersonic missiles, which Russia has, and the high-end element is intel and satellite technology. and the wide variety of things that are going on,
47:43 some of which aren't even in the news, by the way, that go on in Russia and they say, "Oh shit." Uh, or that go on in Ukraine and they say, "Oh the Russians have figured out that thing." But the US is so far beyond other countries in the world in terms of technology. And so that is war with Russia. And you could say that our war with North Vietnam was war with China. But now there's just no question about it. So that was a long answer, Stephen, to say I want to get you your imagination closer. We're already at war with Russia. >> There's a phase a lot of companies hit where they're no longer doing the most important thing, which is selling, and they get really bogged down with admin and it's often something that creeps up slowly and you don't really notice until it's happened. Slowly, momentum starts to leak out. This happened to us, and
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49:17 credit card or payment required. This company that I've just invested in is grown like crazy. I want to be the one to tell you about it because I think it's going to create such a huge productivity advantage for you. Whisper Flow is an app that you can get on your computer and on your phone on all your devices and it allows you to speak to your technology. So, instead of me writing out an email, I click one button on my phone and I can just speak the email into existence and it uses AI to clean up what I was saying. And then when I'm done, I just hit this one button here and the whole email is written for me. And it's saving me so much time in a day because Whisper learns how I write. So on WhatsApp, it knows how I am a little bit more casual. On email, a little bit more professional. And also, there's this really interesting thing they've just done. I can create little phrases to automatically do the work for me. I can just say Jack's LinkedIn and it copies Jack's LinkedIn profile for me because
50:03 it knows who Jack is in my life. This is saving me a huge amount of time. This company is growing like absolute crazy. And this is why I invested in the business and why they're now a sponsor of this show. And Whisflow is frankly becoming the worstkept secret in business productivity and entrepreneurship. Check it out now at whisperflow spelled w i s p r f l o w.ai/ Steven. It will be a game changer for you. Speaking of crazy weapons, I was um I was reading about a story where you did a a tour with the CIA and they showed you a mechanical dragonfly. >> Yeah. >> With a battery. What What did they show you? >> Well, I've given a I've had a lot to do with with the agency that's been that's been public over the years. And I was giving a talk and then afterwards they took me on a tour to a CIA museum. They
50:49 showed me a lot of things. Oh, here's the helmet that was worn by that pilot who was shot down over Russia named Powers. all kinds of interesting memorabilia and one of them was a little dragonfly the size of a dragonfly and it was um mechanical and I looked at it real closely and thought wow that that's really fantastic it's very interesting and he said you don't have any questions at all I said no I mean I I get it and he said why don't you ask me when it was built U and I said okay when was it built 1967 in 1967 before we had any miniaturaturized electronics or motoriis ization. The CIA had built that little thing and uh and it was a a little camera that would fly around in here as a dragonfly and then uh and then you
51:34 know fly home and I don't know how many pictures it held but it's an interesting piece I want to share with you about AI which is people wonder you know how sophisticated is AI and and where is it my belief is that everything we have access to like AI we probably have something that the US intelligence had 10 years ago. We're probably dealing with something quite old already. >> I'm just looking at the a picture of this dragon. >> Oh, I didn't even know it was public. >> Um, this >> that's the There he is. >> This little thing here. >> Yeah. >> And you know, this was made, as you say, what 50 years ago. So, one can only imagine the type of technology they have now. >> Oh, of course. >> I mean, they pro they don't even need to fly a dragonfly in because we have all these electronic devices. >> Of course, they can they can turn on our
52:21 devices. probably your watch if it's a an Apple watch but certainly your phone uh and u yeah uh the we are participating in I won't even call it an experiment but a process that you read 1984 I'm sure and most of your audience did I was very heartened during the beginning of co that 1984 became the 17th bestselling book in the world in the English language >> telling me ah people are paying attention they see that what they're experiencing here has a degree of 1984 to it. I think all science fiction stories come true. I really do. I see it time after time. What advice would you give to my listeners about how to navigate in the world we're living in today, you know, to avoid risk, threat,
53:09 you know, whether that's of our soft tissue as you said or just with our privacy or lives generally. Like where does the advice start? You said you raised 10 kids. >> Yeah. >> What advice are you giving to your 10 kids? Uh well they they all know that their dad is a big proponent uh and and my first book which is still a a very uh big book the gift of fear that book is I think still the bestselling book in the world on violence after 25 years and um that book is all about intuition and personal responsibility. So the very first thing I would say to your listeners, to you to remind myself as well is that human beings did not get the biggest claws or the biggest teeth or the biggest muscles. We got the biggest brains relative to our size. And
53:54 the nuclear defense system that all human beings have is intuition. Much different from logic. Intuition, the root of it, by the way, I learned when I was writing that book, is in tear, which means to guard and to protect. So intuition when you think about it, oh, I just have a feeling I should go back to the apartment and doublech checkck such and such. Did I leave the fire on on the pot? And you go back and you open the the door and you didn't leave the fire on the pot, but something else will always be going on that makes you glad you came back. I believe that intuition is always right in at least two ways. One, it always has your best interest at heart. It's not with you. It's giving you real information that's valuable. And and number two, uh it's always based on something. And so our
54:40 journey is to figure out when I have an intuitive feeling like do this show with you, who knows why, but when I have that intuitive feeling, and by the way, I don't do most shows. I don't know what the reason is. I don't know what it'll be. I mean, I can make up one with logic, right? I like that guy. I learned a lot from his shows. I can create a case. I can make a case for anything. But if it's just based on what I feel and everything you've succeeded at and accomplished was based on what you felt. It was based on intuition. In America, in the West, we think we're doing it by logic, right? I do a big PowerPoint presentation and I say to the board, "Here's the reason. Here's why, and here's the percentages." And they say, "Oh, good." The board at corporations in America would actually prefer that I use logic even if I'm wrong instead of using
55:27 intuition even if I'm right. So when I say to you, no, I just think it's the right thing to do. I I think it'd be smart. I think it'll be it'll really work out like something like Amazon Prime that people opposed and then it's like 175 million people just in America are using it. Big success. Intuitive process, not a not a logic process. Logic is weak and plotting. Logic does A B C D. Intuition does A to Z instantly. And you don't know why. It's knowing without knowing why. I don't feel good about that person. I'm I'm gonna back I I said I was going to make this business deal. I'm backing out of it. I said I was going to show up to that thing. I'm calling and cancelling. And by the way, cancelling one of my favorite things. I recommend it to everybody. I recommend cancelling and postponing to everybody I
56:14 know. You are not obligated to keep your plans. You made a plan 3 months ago and you don't know who you'll even be or if you or them or anybody will even be alive 3 months from now. There's nothing wrong with cancelling. Now I don't do it rudely by the way but just to finish on you know sort of what your listen your your viewers uh and listeners can do is that is to really fall in love with intuition and to learn the way you communicate with yourself. The there's signals from intuition. Curiosity you just wonder something. Suspicion worry can even be a signal of intuition. Um but the biggest one is true fear. When you feel true fearh I don't want to do this. I wanted to ask you a question about this. I met with Magnus Carlson who is the arguably the best chess
57:00 player in the world. And I met with him after spending some time in Cape Town writing about gut instinct and intuition, all these kinds of things. And one of the things that I learned through my writing was that in in many cases when someone has really well-trained intuition, their first thought is the right thought. And actually, if you give them longer to think about the problem, they make a worse decision. So when I met Magnus Carlson as a as the number one chess player in the world backstage, we were both on stage together. I said to him, I said, "Listen, I got a question to ask you. Do you basically now just run off intuition or do you think?" And he said, "My first thought is nearly always right." So actually, I spend the other time just confirming the first sort of intuition that I had. And actually, I was telling him about a dodgeball game
57:46 where they got dodgeball players, professional dodgeball players, to look at a frozen image of a dodgeball game and said, "Where would you throw the ball?" >> And when they gave them little time to decide, they made a better decision. When they just went with their first gut instinct, they made a better decision. They unfroze it and it was the right throw. If they gave them longer, >> they made the worst decision. And the the sort of caveat and I guess the question for you is it appeared to me that you almost have to train the intuition. Like areas in our life where we've got multiple reps and pattern recognition, our intuition is valuable. But then in other areas of our life where we haven't trained the muscle yet, we can make bad decisions. One such example would just be like the first time you start hiring people. >> You don't have a trained intuition yet. So you go, "Yeah, she seems nice." But then you get I'm probably been hiring thousands of people for 15 years now and
58:33 I get you know I get an intuition. So do you have to train your intuition? >> Well I think it happens automatically as you as you live life that new distinctions are added. Um but I also believe that uh it is a natural resource. I could think of it in a spiritual sense. It's very hard to figure out why we feel a certain way and we do what what Magnus said which is we get our answer and then we backtrack and see if it fits. Right. I think the training that's necessary, Stephen, is not the training to uh improve your intuition. Uh but rather the training to listen to it and to not interrogate it and to not prosecute it. Because I'll give you an example. A woman is working late at night in a in an office building like this. She's on the 10th floor.
59:19 She's leaving. She pushes the button for
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