0:00 - If you have a voice in your head that says there's something special in you, believe that voice before it gets taken away from you. - On today's very special episode of the Aspire podcast, straight from Washington, DC, we're getting ready to learn some life lessons from two of the best. I wonder if you ever thought about where you might be now had public life not intervened. Given Michelle's public prominence, did you ever stir feelings of envy? Have I done enough? I'm in therapy trying to figure out why do I keep asking myself that. Michelle Obama and her big brother, Craig Robinson, have inspired millions. And now they're sitting down with me to open up about the biggest takeaways they've learned along the way. That's an interesting question. I don't know if anybody's ever asked me that. Being a good leader, you have to have
0:49 empathy for the people you lead. It really makes me emotional. You don't have to be Michelle Obama to make change. If you're thinking about how to give your life more meaning or what really matters, this is the episode for you. Michelle, what do you say to somebody who thinks she's absolutely right, but I don't know where to start? Do you still believe when they go low, we go high? - Craig, Mrs. Obama, I am Michelle. - That's you. - Thank you. - Can't say Craig, and now Michelle. - That sounded odd. - First of all, thank you for that because I have a lot of Mrs. Obama, Mrs. Obama, Mrs. Obama all through my thing. - Cut that out. - I was not gonna take the liberty.
1:36 So thank you for that. - It's our pleasure. - I was ready to Mrs. Obama my way through this whole thing. - I wouldn't have let you do that. I would not have let you. She might have kept it this way. - No, I mean, listen, she stopped me straight away, which I'm very, very grateful for. - Thanks for having us. - But I wanna start by saying I'm so happy to have you. Extremely grateful for the time and extremely excited to have this conversation. So we're here. Well, this is family here. Oh, thank you. So we are happy to be here. You've been such a support to us, the foundation. You are amazing. So, and we're so proud of all that you're doing here. So we are thrilled. I will speak for my brother. She is, as she'd want to do. Well, that means the most coming from you and we can just finish now. Okay. Because that's all I need. Okay. I am, honestly, it's just been so wonderful even doing the research
2:25 about the two of you because I have to say I always wanted a big brother. I'm one of four girls. I don't, sadly don't have a big brother. But just hearing more about your relationship and the way you describe your relationship is just so amazing. beautiful. Like this idea of you having a protector. I think you said somewhere, you know, you feel like he's always got your arm, like he's always carrying you. He's always got your back, which I thought was so lovely and so wonderful. Isn't that so nice? But as siblings, you know, we spend so much time together in our childhood. And I know that at some point you guys shared a bedroom, which I did with my sisters. And it gives like a different type of intensity to your relationships. And then of course we grow up Life happens, you go off and you do different things. And so my first question was really to ask both
3:13 of you, how do you think your parents would feel about the two of you working together now and doing this podcast? that you hit us right in the heart, right with the first one. Well, you know, our mom, it's a year since her death in May. I'm so sorry. And I think one of the reasons that inspired us to start IMO was it was a great way once Craig and I realized that we are the elders now in our family, losing our mom, and we've lost a lot of the seniors in our life. that our generation is now the generation with the wisdom. And when you lose your mom, you have to start embracing the truth of who you are. No longer are you somebody's daughter or son, but you
4:01 are the person that people are looking up to in your family, even though maybe that was the case long before because of our positions, but you don't feel it. So this podcast is kind of a tribute to our parents, a way for us to spend time together, to make it a point that we're spending time together, but also to share a lot of the wisdom that Marian and Fraser Robinson passed down to us around a kitchen table that got us both where we are today. So I know they would be proud. And they both would be cracking up too. They would, I think they would find it humorous that the two of us are sort of back in each other's lives like this. So, um, so closely and, um, and
4:49 I would just love to hear mom's reaction to some of the things, some of the topics we talked about. Do you think you'd get every episode feedback? Is that the type of family you come from? Oh yeah. Yeah. I think I, I, I, especially our mom, my mom would be like, well, I don't remember that. Actually, she would, she would claim not to remember anything negative and remember all of the things positive. I love that. Well, you know, I started this podcast because I really wanted to speak to the people that I aspire to the most. And Michelle, I mean, it goes without saying, and for probably for, half the people on this planet, you are one of the most inspiring individuals ever. Thank you. I wonder who the two of you aspire to. Oh, I'll go first on that one. Yeah. Seeing how we
5:37 were just talking about this. You know, when I was little, I looked up to my dad. He was the guy I looked up to. Now, there were Like most boys, I had sports figures and entertainers that you were like, oh, I wouldn't mind doing that. And I wouldn't mind being Ernie Banks from the Chicago Cubs. But, you know, our dad was such a positive force in not just our lives, but anybody's life that he touched. And I really admired that about him. And Emma, you probably know he had a disability. He had MS. And I just, to me, it just made him even stronger because he got up every
6:22 day and went to work. And when he came home, you know, Misha and I talk, we're just talking about this. He would sometimes come home and just get in front of the TV. But if we were outside playing, he'd come out and play with us even after he was working. So, you know, I really aspire to be the type of dad that I, that I had. So that's who I looked up to. Yeah. And I think similarly, you know, in, in, Instead of aspiring to people that I don't know or didn't meet or haven't met, and I've met a lot of people over my life now, I think it was the people in our orbit. I mean, we came from a working class, lower middle class background, big family,
7:08 but we had a lot of people to aspire to. You know, my great aunt Robbie that I talk about in Becoming who taught me how to play the piano, even though we were combatants at it. But she was someone in the community who was a real force. She taught piano lessons to the kids in the neighborhood. She ran what was called an operetta workshop where inner city kids came to the basement of a church and learned opera and singing and using the recorder. We learned how to enunciate, how to perform. In the basement of a church, she was the musical director. She was a elementary school teacher. You know, we had people in our lives like that, real live role models, other teachers in our lives that I think really
7:57 left an impact and made me want to probably set the stage for me mentoring and understanding that I had an obligation in my life to do more than just make money or to work at a corporate firm. I think that those were the people who led me to feel like I owed more to life than sitting on the 47th floor of a corporate firm and making money working for corporate clients. It's interesting that that's what you both took from your childhood because I think when you grow up in somewhere like the south side of Chicago, I mean I grew up in a very similar area in England, there was so much negativity around me. I had a great family but a lot of people complained a lot. and they blamed
8:42 a lot. And the sense that I get from the two of you is that while there was a lot of stuff happening around you, you were able and your family kind of created this amazing nucleus for you to, you know, feel like you should be mentors. How did like what was going on around you not seep through into what was happening in your childhood? - Well, I would say, see, we're older than you are and it was a different time and People weren't complaining. I don't remember people complaining around us. I actually remember it being more of a village where... Like a proper community. A proper community, yes. And I love that term, proper. I haven't heard it in a while, a proper community.
9:30 But where you had your neighbors and your friends' parents and teacher, everybody was holding everybody accountable. And I think we just are missing that these days for whatever reason. People are fearful of parenting somebody else's kids when their parents aren't around. But I remember our mom saying that we were not anything special in the neighborhood. I mean, they loved us and nurtured us, but she also felt that our friends could do whatever we could do. And the kids who were around the block who were single parent kids could do exactly what we could do with the right environment. So there was always the question my mom got
10:16 when we were in the White House. How did you how did you raise two successful, highly, you know, aspirational figures. And as Craig said, mom would say there are a million of Michelle and Craig Robinsons all over the world. You know, my mom understood that excellence wasn't because of your birthright or money or status because she and my father, my mother didn't work until I went to high school. She was a stay-at-home mom. Our dad was a stationary fireman, worked for the city. He was a blue collar worker. But we came from a community of really smart people. They didn't have opportunity because of racism, but there
11:02 was still a high rate of intelligence. and they produce kids just like us. And so there was a pride, not sort of anger or complaining. There was a pride and a belief that what we had was more than enough. And I think that's probably why our role models are the people that were right before us because No, they weren't doctors and lawyers and successful politicians, but they were good people who cared about their kids, who cared about their community, who invested a lot in the world. And I think there's still communities out there like it. I was going to ask you that. Because it's changed so much now, right? You mentioned like you know, that was a, it was a different time. And I think people really crave community. -
11:50 But Emma, we also focus on the negative. And I think social media plays a role in that. - Hugely so. - Because, you know, showing shots of, kids getting shot down in neighborhoods is a lot more, you know, eye-catching than showing a bunch of kids going to school and doing their homework. And so I think a lot of communities get a bad rap because all you see is what's wrong. And we don't focus a lot on all that's right. I think Craig and I are living proof that there is not yesterday, but today, there are a lot of right things happening in communities we just have to continue to invest in them we have to show kids that we we believe in who they are um that we believe they
12:37 have the skills we saw it when we were in malawi together right i mean we went to one of the poorest communities in a poor country and we saw dozens of girls showing up ready to learn. And they had less than any of us ever did growing up, but they had everything inside of them to achieve. Everything. You know, and we live in a world that stops believing in all kids. We grew up in a place where everyone believed in all kids. And that's a message. This is what you reap when you invest and you believe in all kids, regardless of where they come from or how much money they come from. I was actually going to talk about it much later in this conversation, but because you talk about
13:26 how you're investing your time, I'd love you to talk to me a little bit more about the foundation and the work that you're doing at the foundation, because you've chose very purposefully with... all of the things that you could do to invest specifically in and around leadership believing in kids believing in the good of people and what they're capable of so why specifically leadership It's leadership and it's more specifically young people. It's young leadership. So at the Obama Presidential Center, which is scheduled to open in the late spring and summer of next year, and we are thrilled. It is not just a presidential center. Oh, no, it's not. It is an economic development engine on the South Side, down the street from where we grew up, across
14:12 the street from a public high school. I mean, how proud are you to have it there? So proud. I mean, we are, you know, our blood, sweat and tears, who we are, our foundation, our roots, everything that we are was grounded in that community. And to be able to invest in that way of we are proud, but both Barack and I, understand that change comes from the next generation. And we see it now. If you overstay your welcome as a leader in any form, you don't make room for the next generation. And so Barack and I, in addition to both of us investing our lives in mentoring, we thought, well, we need to make room. We need to use this part in our lives not to continue to build who
15:00 we are, but to make space for those that are coming. And leadership comes from all parts of the world, all parts of the country. And we're trying to bring together not just young leaders from the south side of Chicago, but from Asia and Africa and all parts of the world. And one of the things that young people need in leadership is they need to know one another. They need to be able to network. They need to know that they're out there. And these aren't just leaders working in community development or in policy. I mean, the young people coming out of the Obama Presidential Center leadership programs could be sitting in C-suites. They could be sitting in your seat. Yes. But the goal is to train them in a whole foundation
15:47 of democracy and empathy and a whole different definition of what leadership is. Can be not what it looks like today exactly and I think that that's so clear I mean I spent time in South Africa with the foundation as well and I'm a very very proud member of the board But what was so interesting to me is looking at the Obama leaders is to see how varied they were There were people working in reproductive health. There were people working in education. There were those working in climate change and it was so Interesting. I wonder what you know has made you and of course your husband and the and the team that you work with so uniquely positioned to tackle this issue like what makes you able to take this
16:33 on because it's no small fee no no um you know look uh barack's presidency was the result of young people you know maybe it felt like it happened a long ago but when barack first announced no one thought he would ever the kid by the name of Barack Hussein Obama would ever be the first black president of the United States of America and who believed in him first? Young people. People in their teens and 20s, you know, they were using the early versions of social media, which was Meetup, to develop their own-- - That really was a long time ago. - Yeah, that was a very long time ago. When we entered the White House, we came with Blackberries. There were no iPhones. Social media didn't exist. Wow, that's crazy
17:18 to think about. It came into being. We were all on Blackberries. First term, we were learning about Snapchat and Instagram, and it was all brand new. So the world was a world of young people. And so our field organizers, our development folks, the folks on the ground in that campaign that led to his win in Iowa and beyond, these were all mostly 30 and below, young people. And so we saw firsthand the energy and the tenacity and the passion and the belief that young people bring to a movement. And so all those young people follow us into the White House. And so the eight years in the White House of learning about this country, learning
18:06 how to lead young men and women at the helms in all departments throughout the country. And in my opinion, we had some of the best progress with a level of optimism and hope and inclusion, because that's what you get when you work with young people. - Oh yeah. Well, and it had global ramifications. I didn't even live in this country at that point. And that was something that was felt globally. I mean, we would wake ourselves up in the middle of the night to watch those speeches that had no bearings on what was happening in England, but it did, you know, the ripple effects were felt so far and wide. I've been talking to my friends nonstop about our summer plans and all of the incredible places we plan to visit while on vacation. And it got me thinking, I've talked a
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22:48 is? - Wow. - Yes. I'm gonna ask you the same questions you can get ready. - So this is the essence of my sister. Imagine for my birthday, it was probably my fourth or fifth birthday, and I get a brand new bicycle, two wheeler with the training wheels. So I hadn't figured out how to ride a two wheeler yet. And it was a really, a real surprise. And I got my bike. I ride it up in the basement. And who comes tooling around the corner on her tricycle happier than I am that I got a new bike was my little sister
23:38 who couldn't have been more than four years old. And she was so happy for me. And that embodies what kind of sister she is. She's just amazing. caring and selfless and happy for other people's success. And I use that one as an example, but I could probably come up with five or six more of those where she was as happy as I was for my success. Just a generous person. Yes. That's so sweet. You remember that? I do. I do. It's one of my favorite pictures of us, me and my little favorite red velvet dress on my tricycle. And I'm looking up at him like, "Look at my big brother. He's amazing." That is just
24:26 the sweetest. Do you have a memory of Craig that will tell me who he is? I mean, that's one of the, I mean, that's what I thought of my brother. He was amazing. He was an amazing person to follow after because everyone loved Craig. I mean, deeply. And I would tease my mom. I was like, I'm first lady of the United States. and you still, you know, light up like a Christmas tree when Craig walks in, right? It's like, what more do I have to do? - What are you gonna do, moms and sons? - You know, it's true for me. I was like, hey lady, you're living in the White House. - Whatever. - You know, I can't top that. - My son is here. - That's right. - It's hard being the favorite. - What are you gonna do? - It's hard. - But the thing is, is like, I agree. He's my favorite. He's a lot of
25:14 people's favorites. And one of the memories of just our time in Princeton, Because we were at Princeton together for two years. Yeah, we overlapped for two years. How proud was your family? Yeah. But my brother was big man on campus, right? Because he was Division I starter on the basketball team, all Ivy. So he was big man on campus. And we weren't raised to be close, close, like up under each other. I mean, our mother was like, "You have your life, he has yours," because he was the kind of person that would stop what he was doing to make sure I was okay. So my mother was like, you cannot worry about your little sister. You need to get on with your life. So
26:00 we were together, but apart. But the times that we were together, he would take me to alumni booster dinners, which were these free dinners at rich people's houses. And he would just bring along his little sister. That is really big. I never wanted to take my little sisters anywhere. My mom would be like, take your sister. I'd be like, oh. And my mom was the complete opposite. I was like, I got to bring her with me. She's like, no, leave her. But then he would bring me. And, you know, I could just bask in his glow. But my brother is a deeply kind, honest person who I can count on for anything at the drop of the hat. And in those White House years, just knowing that they would show up When we just needed some grounding in family, just regular old, where the girls
26:48 needed regular old family. You know, not special people looking at them differently. Just they needed to be reminded of who they were, where they came from. And having my brother and his family come around during those times meant the world to me and Barack. No doubt. It seems to me that your family are such a huge influence in your lives and the people that you've grown into being. And I just wonder if you've been able to like over the years and in hindsight pinpoint, like what is the framework that you were given, the tools that you were given that have made you both so incredibly successful, but also just like have such an incredible family dynamic? I would start with the fact that our parents loved us unconditionally. That was...
27:36 You always felt that as a kid. Always felt that. Even if you do something really bad, you like knew it. Well, I never did anything bad. You didn't? No, he stole gum off the teacher's desk. I stole gum off the teacher's desk once and that was the worst thing I've done. But I can tell you... You really are good kids. - My parents made us, well, I did stuff to Mish every now and then, but our parents would- - Just evil. - Even through all of that, our parents just absolutely loved us. And not only did they love us, but we felt the love, but they always showed it. And that was number one. And then when you think about our dad, who was disabled with MS from the time
28:22 we could remember, he walked with a limp that got progressively worse. He got up and went to work every day. He was such a hard worker. And I think that drove us to be hard workers. So you're loved and you have this great example of hard work. And then to use a term that wasn't around back then, our parents were really emotionally intelligent. And I think they imprinted that on us. And at least certainly I can see it in Mish all the time when she's dealing with people, dealing with the public. Yes. And I feel it, you know, in coaching and I feel it, I felt it in leadership positions.
29:12 And it's, it's, those three things are the things that I think about when you, when you ask, what is it about our family? You know, it's interesting because we didn't talk about that and I'm listening to you and I actually jotted down sort of, well, what are my principles? And just listening to him, I wrote down, um, Do what you're passionate about. Do the best that you can. Be as prepared as you can and operate with empathy. I'm so happy that you mentioned that because I have been thinking, you know, I'm like in this sort of interesting third chapter of my life and career. And I've been thinking a lot about, well, what do you want to do? And what do you put out there? And for me, everything starts from like these foundational principles. And my team, because I talk about the principles
29:59 all the time, my head, they were like, what are your principles? And I told them like, you have to do an episode on that. So I did like my first solo episode. I was very scared of channeling my inner life. Melvyn, you're here. And you're just talking with no one to talk to? Just with no one to talk to. Because my studio was big. I don't know if I would do that. It's really scary. You really test yourself. But then I realized, I can talk for a long time. And then we're like, all right, you're done. Cut. Okay. and get her out of here. But it was interesting because it really made me bake down like what makes me me and what do I care about? And that's why I wanted to ask you those things because I think we all find you and your family so unbelievably fascinating. And when you see the dynamic between you two, it's so clear that there's just some like foundational stuff there. There's just stuff that you have
30:47 that must've come from your parents, that must've come from your upbringing. And I love the fact that you talk about emotional intelligence because that, that wasn't a bedrock of my upbringing. I had to learn that and learn it the hard way. But I imagine as parents, that's something that you were both acutely aware of and you've tried to give to your kids as a foundational principle. Absolutely. I mean, we spend more time talking about how you treat other people. I mean, I tried to make it a point, just as a parenting principal, not to talk about school and grades with the kids at the table. Because when you have an older one and one coming up, you don't know who the younger one is going to be. You're like creating
31:32 a dynamic almost, right? Right. You're creating the dynamic. And first daughter, brilliant, precocious, and so is the second one. But I was very careful to not... sort of overdue, oh, you got an A. Oh, this happened. Oh, you achieved these things because I'm thinking emotionally, like this one isn't even coming up yet. And what if that's not who she is or who she wants to be? And if she sees us falling all over the first one for, you know, what does that tell her? - And how does it change the way she behaves without you even knowing 'cause she wants to please you. - So we spent more time talking about what happened at
32:17 school. friendships how did you feel because I felt like that was more neutral territory you know let's talk through problems you know okay great you're doing well at school that's for you good for you but it's not you know it's it's not the basis of our dynamic here so I what did you care about like when you think about like what are the things that you were like but but this is a must do in this house kindness self-possession. I wanted my kids to be okay with speaking up for themselves um but but not by putting somebody else down i wanted my girls to know how to fight for themselves uh i wanted them
33:07 to know how to advocate for themselves how to communicate um uh how did you even teach that oh Oh my gosh, it's, you know, I think, I think for us, it's a lot of talking to your kids. I mean, it's when we talk about the kitchen table, part of IMO and we sit around a table is that we spend our time. Our house was so small. Everything happened in the kitchen table. That was, that was the place. And everybody in our family, extended family, they came and we sat around the table and we talked about about everything. We heard about our uncle's exploits at work. He was a detective and he would tell long stories about cases he was on and everybody was a storyteller and everybody was
33:52 sort of putting their lives and their issues on the table and the kids were allowed to be there. - Exactly, you had a lot of exposure. - To witness. And no one was shushed. Like if you had a question and you had to be polite about it, but you were a part of the conversation. And our parents more so than anyone in our family encouraged kids to do that. And so I wanted, I think we both in our households wanted to create that same dynamic of voice Right, because that's where you practice empathy. You test out theories. You come home, something happened at school and we're going to talk about it. Because we're talkers, that's what we do. We're not going to solve it for you, but we're going to talk it through and we want to hear, well, what would you have done and
34:41 why did you do that? What did you think about that? I mean, practicing almost... scenarios in a way, real life and imaginary scenarios. And it's the conversation and the patience and something that we lose when everybody these days separates into their own rooms and their own phones and their own televisions and their own devices. - Or when parents don't share things with their kids. I often hear, especially because I've moved to LA, it's like, that's not a conversation for a kid. And I was brought up again, much like you, just hearing everything, the good, the bad, the slightly inappropriate, all of it. - If something happened at a family dinner, somebody had an argument or somebody said something crazy, maybe we wouldn't talk about it then, but in the car ride home, we'd be like, well, tell us about what Aunt
35:31 Such-and-Such said. Can you help us understand what's going on? So I think helping, giving kids credit for understanding context, you know, not dumbing things down, you know, not having conversations that are too above kids, inappropriate, but taking children's curiosity, not as disrespect, but as an opportunity to teach. My mother, for example, she used to tell the story about Craig when he was a baby, that when he was learning how to do some things, he would get on the couch and he wanted to get off on his own. And instead of stopping him from doing it, she said, "I took the time to show him as early as two that you could turn around, scoot yourself down and get off the couch by yourself." So instead of
36:21 telling him, "Don't get off the couch, you're too young," or "Be careful," she was like, "Let me teach him." And she always talked about how smart kids were, how smart babies were. She was aware. She was an early childhood development protege before it was a thing. She was very into how kids, children, babies thought. And she understood that they were smart and that they had ideas very early on. I I think a lot of that, that's all emotional intelligence. - Yes, yes. - And I think like that. I think like that about my kids. I think about that about my staff and my people. My whole question in life is, why are you doing what you're doing? What made you say that before I
37:09 react, I think, what's your context? Do you think that that is a good conversation that people should have with themselves? Because I feel like it's one that I'm having constantly with myself right now. Like, why am I doing what I'm doing? And what is the point of all of this? And so going back to your principles, it feels like you guys were raised to question yourself, to have the emotional intelligence to... Go inside yourselves and all the trigger it out. Yes Our mom was really good about saying Youth you tell me why you want to do something it was so it was you had some agency in anything you wanted to do so if I wanted to if I wanted to go
37:56 over to a girl's house and We we've talked about this before she wouldn't say no she would say I Well, what do you think? And you imagine how much pressure that puts on you. Especially when you go to your parent and you say, "What do you think is the best?" And it's like, "I just want you to tell me." "Just tell me the right answer 'cause I don't wanna mess this up." And that kind of agency gives you confidence to make good decisions no matter what the situation. And another point that Mish mentioned, she mentioned empathy. My mom was the type when I would, she would come to our school and help out early before people really did that. She was part of the team. Before they
38:45 were room parents. Before they were room parents. She would just come. She knew how hard a teacher's job was and she'd come and offer some help. And she came to my class once and I got my work done and I was walking around talking to other kids. And my mom said, well, What are you doing? And I said, I'm done with my work. She said, well, why don't you help somebody else who needs help? And it never had crossed my mind to do that. Well, you're a kid. Because I'm a kid. You're a kid. And I think being a good leader, you have to have empathy for the people you lead because their upbringings aren't the same as yours and their experiences aren't the same as yours. But if you can contextualize why they're doing something to Michelle's point. you'll be a better
39:33 leader. No doubt. It's absolutely true. I mean, I feel like I'm in constant conversation thinking about that all the time. Like what is happening for this person that that's the reaction? How can I see it from their point of view? And again, it comes from a place of empathy. You have to be able to see it from their point of view. - And the questioning that you were mentioning, the constant questioning. Yes, that's what we were raised to do, to always ask our own why. So when I was my first job out of law school, of course, after graduating Harvard, as I wrote about, I did what all Harvard grads did. I started working at a big corporate firm, making as much money as I could. You were just on a trajectory. I was on a trajectory. I was checking a box, not questioning,
40:23 because I was on on my path. Well, and also because it's like, you just come out of Harvard, you're like, I earned that too. So I'm going to do that. I'm going to take the check. I also had a ton of debt. So I needed the money. Um, but I talked about one of the turning points, early turning points in my life was when I lost my father. And then I, the same year I lost one of my best friends to lymphoma. First time I had lost people close to me in - And you're 27 at this point? - 26, 20. - Young. - Yeah, young. And I had to look at myself and say, is this who I am? I mean, did I do all of this to just work in this firm? And there's nothing wrong with working in a firm, but
41:10 I hadn't questioned myself. I realized that I needed to figure out my why. Am I here for the right reason? And if I'm not, what else can I be doing? And have I tried anything else on before choosing this? And I think it's that, that helped get me into a career of service. Yes. know and i don't i i probably wouldn't have done it my my parents weren't questioning me they they supported everyone you're going to the top law firm exactly everyone's like you've done it and they didn't know what else you could be i mean we had already kind of surpassed them in terms of education and experience right so they but they were still mentoring us through this this act of showing us how to continue to dig
41:56 inside and figure out our why. And I am doing that every day. That was my next question. Do you still do that? Do you feel like it happens with like frequency in your life? I'm at another why point now. I mean, you know, that's why I tell people you never stop becoming. You know, here I am. I am 61. Am I 61 now? You're 61. Thank you. You know, I'm sort of like, how old am I? 61 years old. Have I done enough? Is it time to stop? You ask yourself that about done enough? Oh, yeah. I'm in therapy, you know, trying to figure out why do I keep asking myself that? But I'm 61, but I'm only... Why do you keep asking yourself that? I...
42:43 I haven't. She's driven. There's a drive and there's a sense of responsibility. There's probably a bit of survivor's remorse. You know, there's also just a truth that there's so much to be done, you know, that it's hard for me to look at problems and not figure out what can I do to solve it. Is that a burden for you? Yeah, it is. Do you have the same feeling? So I don't, and the only reason I don't have it is because I'm still raised, my wife Kelly and I are still raising a 15 year old and a 13 year old. You have four kids, correct? I have four kids. Two that are grown ups and then two that are in high school. Two 33 and 29 and then 15 and 13. going into sophomore year and going into the eighth grade. - 'Cause you know I have four too. - I know you have four kids. - Four's a lot of
43:30 kids, isn't it? - It's a lot. - Let's have a sympathy thing right now. - We went two and two, so what you're doing is actually harder. - You smush them all together. - You smush them all together. - I think in the end, Iron Marketing might be easier. - And you have twins. - You still have some of the stars. - Emma, you haven't thought about your why? After two, I was like, what's my why? - And running two companies now, what? - I'm like, why? - On the board of the foundation? Why am I doing this is the question. - Emma, are you driven? You know, I had good role models. Let me tell you what you did. You fired up every woman on the planet. And I think that that's the truth because, again, living in England, you know, there were just women. And I've spoken about this so many times. It's not just because
44:15 you're here and I want to kiss some ass, but it's the truth. You know, like Oprah for me was like the one. You'd come home and I would run home from school because Oprah came on at 3.45. And so I would get my fix and I would like, you know, I learned about gratitude and I learned about like the... you know, the good stuff that I wasn't seeing around me, like community, empathy, how do you take care of people? What does mindfulness mean? So I learned all this stuff. And throughout my life, I feel like people have appeared, right? To kind of show me the way. And, you know, for so many of us, we saw you and we were like, wow, she is her. lawyer and she's so accomplished and now she's going to take on this whole like situation around what everybody's eating and then she's going to be out here speaking and look at her arms and
45:02 look at her outfit and she's so good and it was like all the things and so in my head i was like well of course i can and i think that that's so important because i truly believe you can't be what you don't see that's one of my biggest reasons for wanting to so bad beyond the board of the Obama Foundation. I made no secret of it. I told everybody else, what about me? I can pull myself up for that. But you know, for me, again, it's about this idea of what are you putting out there and how many people can it impact? And I feel like in both of your careers, you haven't just settled with making something great for yourselves and making something great for your families, but you've got, had these kind of like huge tentacles and that is really admirable. And I think that, you know, the ripe age of 42 right now you start to
45:49 think about a lot of things beyond yourself and beyond your own family and that's why for me it's so fascinating that at this point in your life you two have chosen to come together and share all of this golden stuff because it's what the world needs like we need to hear that I need to understand your principles I want to know like how I should raise my kids I want to know like what you did wrong quite honestly I want I want all of it like all all the information. So we are like eating it up right now, taking notes literally all the time. And I feel like your whole family and the way that you guys are is just a big, beautiful lesson for all of us. Like we should be so lucky. I really feel like that. - And it still goes back to what our mom said, 'cause he quotes it a lot. We are not special.
46:37 There are millions of Michelle and Craigs out there. And I think, And you, Emma, you know this too. You know that we are not rare. It's just opportunity, luck. We happen to have two good parents. Our souls are the same, our intellect is the same, but when you lock up on two good parents. - Lock up. - It's a big deal. - So yeah, I feel like I have a responsibility to the millions of other Craigs and Michelles that are coming up that may not get that lucky piece. And for kids like us, you don't get it all, you miss
47:23 a piece and the trajectory is intense. There's no room for error for kids like us. And it really makes me emotional, 'cause I think of one step away and this guy could be seen as a criminal, as somebody who's dangerous. One step away, I could have been you know, somebody who could have never gotten into college with the same mind, the same possibility, the same heart, the same soul. So I do feel a responsibility to cast a broad net and to be the light for somebody, you know, some kid like me, you know,
48:09 who didn't have the right mom, didn't have the right mix, Things just didn't work out perfectly for us. You know, and this is what I want this country to understand. It's like life is unfair for a lot of kids. There are no safety nets for many of us. We provide that safety net for each other through our taxes, through our giving, through our empathy, through our openness, especially when you have enough, when you've been blessed with plenty. Our responsibility, our principles should be, how do we spread that? Because guess what I've learned? There's enough for me to have a lot because I've had many careers. I've made money. I don't believe in
48:56 not making money. Thank you. - It's nice of you to say that part too, right? 'Cause I don't think it's either or. - It's not either or, you can do both. You can make a lot of money, you can pay your fair share of taxes, there can be a good social safety net, you can have good insurance and everybody can have good insurance. There's plenty on this planet to go around and it's not a zero sum game. And so that's what keeps driving me is like to whom much is given, Much is expected, you know, and we're a great country where many of us have been given a lot and there are a lot of people within our own midst who don't have enough And it's not because I'm special and they're not. It's not because I worked harder and deserved it more and they
49:45 didn't because I know who those people are and they are not all the same color as me. They come from all walks of life. We can't make assumptions about who people are and what they can do based on the color of their skin. There are... well-deserving poor people in Appalachia and they're well-deserving poor people on the South side of Chicago and all of them are not getting a fair shake. They don't have good enough schools. They don't get healthcare. And I feel it is our responsibility not just to have principles for our own individual selves, but have principles that are gonna impact a broader squath of people because it makes us all better. - Oh yes, it really does. - That's the thing that keeps me pushing forward
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52:50 on clean science. Get 25% off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com forward slash Emma. Start Ritual or add Hire Sarah to your subscription today. That's ritual.com forward slash Emma for 25% off. So Michelle, what do you say to somebody listening today who thinks she's absolutely right? I really believe that to my core, but I don't know where to start. I work my regular job. I'm pretty okay. Like, how do you start to extend yourself and have a broader impact if you want one? Well, one of the principles that I talk about in the light is start small, you know, um, The power in
53:37 small change is really real, you know, and sometimes we get ahead of ourselves because we think it has to be big. And look, not all of us will ever have the platform to have big impact. And that's OK, because big impact is limited. Look, I lived with the president of the United States of America, and there were so many things he couldn't get done because there are limits on that power. And as we are learning, it's good to have some limits on power. You know, it's good to have a democracy with checks and balances. There's a reason for that. But I also think that like a teacher, oh, being a good teacher, that's some power. Being a good parent to the children you bring into this planet, small, right there
54:25 in your lap. Right there in your house. It's like, you don't have to do anything else but raise the kids you brought into the world. That doesn't mean you have to be rich. that means you have to be present and proper that means you have to have some theories of your why yeah you know it's not just why do i want to be important it's like why do i want to be a mother why did i bring this kid here and now that they're here what's my responsibility if we i would just say to people focus right in your lap first take care of the thing that you have control and power over and sometimes it's as small as yourself Like, that's like, if you can rethink your why, it may be yourself. Wonder, well, why are you angry? Why don't you want to give?
55:16 Why are you mad? What are you mad about? Where's that coming from? So I just encourage people, start with what you can control. Don't try to change your community. Do you have a little cousin who's looking up to you? Do you have a neighborhood kid down the street from you who looks up to you? We all have someone looking up to us and living a life where we're a role model to those people in small ways, being good, going to work, being responsible. Doesn't mean you have to be an NBA star. Doesn't mean you have to be a Steph Curry. You don't have to be Michelle Obama to make change. You know, it starts right here. And I would encourage people, start small. Start where you are. - Start right where you are. - But just be really committed to it and passionate about it,
56:03 right? Don't half-ass it, right? - That's a really important thing. Don't half-ass it. - If you're gonna mentor a kid-- - Do something small and do it for real, for real. - Then do it for real, for real. If you're gonna be in somebody's, a kid's life, then be there. You don't have to be perfect in it. You don't have to be there every day. But when you say you're gonna do something for a kid, then do it. And if you can't do it, then don't say you can. That's another thing we learned from our parents. They didn't, they couldn't give us much. But if they told us they were going to do something or be somewhere, they did it. You know, they didn't lie. Oh, that's the same where I come from. If you're from East London, like your word is key. Your word is your bond. Yes. You know, and if you can't do it, then say you can't. Honesty in your word. Our father couldn't give us much. But he showed up
56:50 whenever he said he was, he was consistent. So I picked a man like my father. Barack Obama is a consistent man in my life and my daughter's life. And when he says he's going to do something for us, he does it. My brother, consistent man in my life, you know, small things, you know. Craig, did you have the same type of like important people in your life outside the family? I mean like mentors or somebody that helped you out in that way? I did. I did. It was my extended family. My dad's younger brothers. who were closer to us in age than he was to my father. - There was a gap in there. - There was a little gap in there when they- - I love the young
57:37 uncles, they were the most fun. - Oh God, yeah. - They could do so much good stuff for you. - And so this was during the time of high, black activism, black Panthers, that kind of thing. And they allowed me in that world at an early age, you know, 10, 11 years old. Did you have a natural interest anyway? I had a natural interest in anything they were doing. Okay. So it's more about them than the cause at that point. It was about them. That's how I looked up to them. Because one was an athlete, the other was a bookworm. And I wanted to be like both of them. They taught me how to stand. Even though my sister doesn't agree. They taught me how to talk to girls even though I didn't put it into practice until later But it was so so it
58:26 started with them and then it moved on to Basketball coaches. I had a couple of really good young basketball coach Johnny Gage who I thought was older than I was Ended up being closer to me and age. We were like I and 11 and 12 and he was 19. But he held us accountable, he was fair and he cared about us. - Do you remember any of the advice that they gave you? - My uncles said, "Whenever you're standing on the street, never stand with your feet together. Always stand with one foot pointing forward and the other..." other foot pointing at
59:12 10 o'clock. Why is this? Explain this to me immediately. Some of it they just made stuff up. No, they didn't. No, listen. Is this with someone coming to push you? Like, is this an attack situation? No, this wasn't. This turns out to be really true because you do public speaking, right? Yes. When you have to stand somewhere for a long time, if you stand with both of your legs under you, you can't stand as long as you can if you stand at 12 o'clock and 10 o'clock. - They were right. - Is he? - They were right. - He's true about the advice from our uncle. - Is that an elegant stuff? Yes, that's a man thing. - It's a man thing. - I'm trying to, that is not a God. We cannot take that on. - It could be a man thing. - They didn't let me in the room for that lesson. - That was something that stuck
59:59 out in my mind for a long time. - I love that that's what stuck. - And then of course, coaches giving you advice about how to play. And then, other people outside of my dad. So I just, it's mostly uncles. - It's a lot of man advice stuff. - Yeah, but this is so good. I mean, the men need different advice, ain't it the truth? - And we were just in a discussion about how we don't, we didn't get any inner advice as men back then. 'Cause you know, back then. - It wasn't the thing. - It wasn't the thing. - They were teaching you how to stand. - You know what they were doing? - They got me a parent. - They were teaching you how to be a leader. That's what I mean. Under a male and under a male paradigm. Of course. It is so different, isn't it? I mean, you have to do things very
1:00:47 differently. There weren't women leaders back then. I mean, she's 61. I'm 63. Back then, the only female leaders you saw were in the classroom. Is that true? Just think about it. It was very few female police officers, firefighters, very few women in leadership positions. And they had to be in the church, at the choir. You saw people in those six categories in the education field, but you never saw them in, you know. This is why we're in the mess we're in. My dad would take me to his job, and there were no women there. But, you know, there were a lot of people outside of my parents who,
1:01:32 you know, sort of showed me the way. Michelle, I wanted to switch gears a bit because I was looking back at your career and all of the chapters that you've had. And I wondered if you ever thought about where you might be now had public life not intervened. Yeah, I mean I probably and public life and Barack Obama hadn't intervened right because I was on my check box checking path just like because when you grow up in a working-class family We didn't have I didn't have parents who could show me what was possible, you know You my mom used to joke after I was 10. She was like well you're on your own kid. So meeting Barack was someone outside of the box checking paradigm, right? He had been a
1:02:22 community organizer before he went to law school. He had taken a gap year. He had worked in bank. He had done so much, and he wasn't interested in the typical trajectory. So when I was also starting to ask this why in my career, it was around the time that I met him. And he opened up a whole world of possibility. of how to think about life. So yeah, if I had met him. - Do you think he changed the way you thought about what you were gonna do? - I think he gave me courage to take the step away. I think. - How did he do that? You know, because we had started dating and there was also the question of how do I afford to take the step away?
1:03:09 Right. Because you're making good money. And I still had debt. I mean, our combined, our student loan debt was more than our first mortgage after we got married. And because we didn't stay on the monetary path, we both went into public service. We didn't pay off our debt until Barack Obama. wrote dreams for my father and became a bestseller right we would you know this is the massive amount of student loan debt that we had we were in our late 30s 40s right um because we got off the money making path and i worked in the city and every job i took i made less money but i was more and more fulfilled um So I think had I not met him and his view was, we'll figure this out
1:03:55 together. We got each other's backs. I think that was the first step into let me give this a try. No way. And it was that. You disagree? What do you mean? Please tell us. I love my brother-in-law. She would have made that move eventually herself. You think so? Because we all have that thought process. She would have developed the courage to make it on her own. Perhaps. But the question was, where would I be Don't I don't know. I mean, I maybe I would have taken the leap And but if I couldn't afford to right if I found myself still struggling to pay my bills I might have gone back I might have gone back because I might have been like, you know what? I'm struggling with this lower salary
1:04:43 By I wouldn't have been as happy. Yeah, no doubt. I wouldn't have been as fulfilled I wouldn't have felt this level of purpose. I mean, with every job I took, I was going deeper into my own community, my own city, learning it in ways that I never knew existed. I mean, I feel like I know Chicago inside and out because through working for the city and the Department of Planning and Development, working with the mayor, running a nonprofit organization, I have literally set foot in every community in the Chicagoland area. And most people don't do that. Most people live in their communities. They're born and raised. If you're born and raised on the South Side, you don't know what the North Side is. You never go to the West Side.
1:05:30 the world of the city opened up to me. And so it made it easy then to try new things. It prepared me to be the first lady of the United States because after doing all this stuff outside of law, being the first lady of the United States was easy in comparison. You know, I had started nonprofit organizations. I had worked in city government before where I had to start stuff from scratch and work in on projects that I knew nothing about and had to learn on the spot, you know, learning how to build teams and work with teams. So by the time I got to become the first lady, it was like another startup. nonprofit, you know, where I knew how to define a mission and a vision and how to develop a strategy and build a team and to execute against a set of
1:06:18 goals. I mean, that's how I approached my eight years. It was like, it's a proper business. It's a business and we are going to get things done. We're going to understand our mission. We're like a small subsidiary within this big, you know, administration that is run by my husband. So I had to think in terms of strategies and initiatives that would complement what he was doing and not compete with what he was doing. And I had to do it with basically no staff because the first lady doesn't have a budget. Well, I was used to that. I worked in nonprofits. where you had to raise everything. You're not going to make it work. You had to figure out how to cross over into other agencies and use their resources to get things done in healthy eating. I mean, it was an entrepreneurial and very familiar
1:07:05 endeavor. Were you able to do forward planning? Could you look beyond the eight years and say, okay, here's what's going to happen the minute I'm out of office? Well, that's where the initiatives came in. right so with um uh let's move for example we established a separate non-profit organization the partnership for a healthier america knowing that there had to be a place for this work to go once we were
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