0:00 What kills you as a person, what prevents you from moving and developing, what slows you down is the lack of plans, the lack of perspective. The war brought to light eternal questions that one must be able to answer or ask oneself. I negotiate with my kokuho every time. I tell her: "Dear Olechka, it's okay, you have a basement at home, you did everything you could." And indeed, business leaders hold their own pretty well, relatively speaking, because of their character. [music] Congratulations. Today we gathered at the SEO Club, a club of business leaders. And today our topic, which we want to raise, talk about and shed some light on for ourselves and for our viewers,
0:47 is the psychological resilience and mental health of leaders, business leaders and public life leaders too. I would like to introduce our interlocutors today. This is Olga Ustinova, SEO Vodafone Ukraine. Greetings to everyone. Georgy Kovalenko, priest, philosopher, theologian. and Boris Shestopalov, co-owner of the club, food entrepreneur. And I am Yevgeny Pesternikov, an organizational psychologist. Let's start by talking a little about the context in which business leaders and entrepreneurs currently find themselves . Precisely regarding what may be attacking our mental stability,
1:32 what may be inhibiting our psyche, our perception, and our vitality. Yes, if possible, maybe a few examples of what you've encountered and some personal examples. We are all in a state of war right now. Everyone has a very difficult feeling about reality. And the main thing is that I feel, yes, that a lot has changed. Every day you deal with a whole bunch of things that, well, you've never encountered before. And usually, well, if this is normal life, not wartime, then you make such very important decisions , well, new, yes, you solve new problems there not as often as now.
2:19 Now sometimes there, but during the day, and you have to make a very important decision, very quickly and you don't have the experience of making these decisions, for example, yes, because it's usually a new challenge and you're trying to find some solution. For example, one of the most recent, uh, very important ones right now, are blackouts, when you have to keep the network, uh, connected. We understand that base stations are still working and we need energy. And you are always in this focus, because you understand that without communication it is impossible to evacuate or work. And usually now, if we used to say that mobile communication
3:05 is a connection of people, yes, now we say that it is a connection of life. Well, now you do everything via mobile phone, evacuation corridors, and informing about danger, uh, all the services, the military also uses them. And these are very important things, because now we are on, well, we understand, for example, the challenge was the last one, it continues. This is a question of how to ensure communication for the military if the Stalin links are turned off. And this is also a decision we are making. And usually there are many challenges that, for example, no one has ever faced with telecom. We were at a conference in
3:52 Barcelona, we recently arrived and there were a lot of questions: "How do you maintain a network? How is it even possible to work there? What experience do you have there ?" And it becomes very interesting and a lot of questions arise. I sometimes smile there and say, "Well, that's going to cost you a lot." Because the experience is truly unique. That's why every day we face challenges and this stress is felt even sometimes, you know, at the cellular level. And the question is how to work with them. I think we'll talk about all these things there later. Class. Thank you, Olga. In general, we may see more questions than answers. Now let's see. Boris, please, what are your challenges? In terms of challenges, they are
4:38 very, very similar to each other. Business in our country has never been very easy. And at the beginning, as we say, of the first war or the beginning of the war in 1914, the type of business, the workload, and the challenges we had had already changed. Well, especially, for example, most of our business is located in Zaporizhia, and our current base back office is located there, as is most of our enterprises. And so, already in the 14th year, we constantly felt the impact of the war. And of course, the 22nd year raised it to a fundamentally different level and the challenges became fundamentally different. And I can say that,
5:26 well, despite all that, even the difficult times, but before the start of such a full-scale invasion, we still considered ourselves more part of the system than we became an independent system during the war. Because we had to decide a lot of things for ourselves, because there was no one to turn to, so there was nowhere, yes, nowhere. And indeed, we have always understood that our only responsibility to the energy grid is to pay our bills on time . But we never planned to create our own network. Well, we treated Lenchuk the same way. We simply knew that we needed to have several suppliers, have delivery terms and
6:13 prices. Oh, well, we never thought that we would have to create our own strategic reserves and other things. Every business, or most businesses, has turned into such fairly independent systems with a whole bunch of capabilities that they never had, didn't even know they had . Yes. So what was a bomb shelter like for our company? Well, it was a kind of burden that we had, and we thought it was there. And I still don't understand what prevented us from converting them into warehouses or something else in the previous 10 years. that they remained bomb shelters. And after the start of a full-scale war, call centers began operating there
7:00 , for example. And what can we say, when people, when we moved the central call center to a bomb shelter, started spending more time at work than at home, because they say it's a safe zone and they just could n't be there, it was impossible to send them home from the call center. Yes. Therefore, it completely reset the understanding of what a business is, what its real responsibilities are, and what challenges you will solve. Therefore, there are many of them. And what has fundamentally changed for me is that it fits into the planning timeline. Well, the first month he was gone completely. Then we started doing weekly planning,
7:47 then very carefully moved on to monthly planning. To say that today we have an annual plan is true, but it is a very, very flexible framework that can be constantly changed after a major arrival or other similar problems. Therefore, uh, the principles of doing business, the principles of decision-making, have changed in themselves. And I would say this, the main thing is that there are no more challenges, it doesn't mean that we know the solution, but no more challenges surprise you. No, they are not shocking. You just understand whether you can handle it or not. Well, it's better to cope, yes, but to say that something like this might happen that we don't expect, probably doesn't exist anymore. Especially after
8:33 Trump. Yes. Well, yes. nothing surprises me at all . Well, in principle, it's a kind of constant workload that you're constantly under. Yes, this is no longer a shock. Thank you very much. Yes, Georgy, please, can you shed some light on what is happening from the other side? I probably won't talk about the challenges facing the church or the priest as such. But I came into contact with business people more during the war. And not in a purely religious sense, but there was just a certain demand and a certain inclusion in the community. Communities are connected in one way
9:20 or another with business education. And in fact, somewhere in the third month of the war, yes, such gatherings of business people, there, the public sector, began, even with conversations about, Ugh. What about us, what will we do after the victory, right? Imagine, in the third month of the war, talking about victory will not come out. And this and this, yes, and this was a very powerful story. In what sense? Then a civilian officer academy appeared, yes, where business people defined their
10:07 specific mission as responsible citizens, as people who are responsible for the country, for society, and who are responsible horizontally. This experience of the first two months, uh, the experience was spontaneous, uh, then I needed something more systematic, yes, and then there was a request, well, for a conditional metaphysics of management, when people who are solving problems in this situation, yes, they have demonstrated their resilience, they are ready to do something further, but they have questions about the meaning, yes, the question of what for, the question of what kind of Ukraine do we want, yes? And all these questions
10:55 have become completely practical, right? So you can't, if you can talk about challenges, about some general philosophical or general theological things. You enter into a dialogue with people who have a rather, well, practical view of life, yes, who have achieved a lot in this life , who know how to organize certain processes, but who have these eternal questions. The war brought to light the eternal questions that one must be able to answer and be ready to ask, or ask oneself, because it is no longer, you know, a question-answer, like in the catechism, the right question and the
11:41 right answers. You read a book and then for some reason, why doesn't anyone read catechesis now? Because there are the right answers to the right questions. People don't face such questions from other people, but questions have arisen. And therefore, we must seek answers together to these wrong, sometimes incomprehensible, sometimes strange questions. And this is a certain challenge, I think, for And now in Ukraine we see a large number of communities. They are very often not public at all, yes, communities that are trying to find answers to these questions . And by the way, CO Club is one of these communities, yes, such consistent systemic responses, yes, I will add from myself regarding our topic itself, yes, thank you for
12:28 outlining the context and drawing attention to the fact that these are not just challenges in a vacuum, they are real, I believe, attacking our mental system, our mental state, yes, and uh, they will test our resilience, yes, our ability to take action, to take constructive action. And I want to add this thing that these challenges that we've faced, for all leaders, have shaken their basic function a little bit , one of the basic functions, because one of the basic functions of a leader, in my opinion, is orientation in uncertainty. Well, even when everything is defined somewhere, the basic function of a leader is still, he sets the direction of movement, yes, he determines where, in what direction the business, the business system itself, is moving. And the war attacked. Mm.
13:18 perspective, yes, I don't know if it's before us, what I mean, yes, but in the sense that people have started to lose their sense of perspective, and this attacks the mental system very, very strongly when you don't understand at all whether that perspective exists and where I personally and my business are heading. And this feeling of loss of perspective is present in all employees. And the business leader, he feels this demand. And literally, teams very often look at leaders as someone who reminds us of the perspective, and with animals, a new perspective. And I consider this a very big challenge to modern leadership in our situation that we have. Let's talk a little bit about your observations, maybe even your
14:05 personal prescriptions, about how you work on your psychological state, how you maintain resilience, yes, how you adjust and restore your mental health. Well, first of all, I want to reflect on what you just said and maybe move on to the question. Well, I can say that I have had a certain number of cases now when I, with one or another part of the team, frankly, look, right now I do n't know the solution, I don't have an answer. Let's search. Well, you just have to be honest . I don't know the answer to your question and let's search together, because I can't know everything first of all, and
14:52 sometimes overload is so critical that you understand that you need to look around you for additional support, additional support, because you simply don't have enough of it. And yes, this is not the first time I've had such stories where I say: "Let's look for a solution, which I definitely wo n't give you right now." Ugh. And, well, of course, you, uh, well, most likely, in most cases you understand what needs to be done, because, well, a leader is not just a person who, well, leads the process. It's just that more often we have more information and we can make decisions from a helicopter view and you just have more points of
15:39 contact and you understand the consequences and you can make decisions, well, more far-sighted, I would say. And this gives you an opportunity. And sometimes it seems like you know where she is, even though she does n't. You just know more information. You have a combination of experience and a certain kind of design, yes, something like that. So you can use it. I can say that for me, such an important part of this internal transformation was the transition to the beginning of the return to planning. I have definitely decided for myself that what kills you as a person, what prevents you from moving and developing, what slows you down, is the lack of plans, the lack of perspective. Still, a
16:26 person needs a plan. Maybe somewhere on the verge of a dream, but without a plan, without a dream that transforms, well, what is the task of a leader, a business leader, because here it is said to take a dream, add certain markers, tools to it and turn it into a goal. And if you, I remember very well the first months of the invasion, when we lived day by day, then the next day you would end the day with the plan for the day fulfilled. We survived, we move on. I quit, almost quit training. I was on call for 20 hours, uh, constantly. So,
17:13 for example, we were figuring out how to connect salt, so far there was an opportunity to Birdyansk, to Melitopol. I've only had this opportunity for the first few weeks. What to do in Zato Olya says: "We will first set up Zaporizhia." Listen, we can't even make payments. And you remember, that's how it was. And so it was day by day. Ugh. I decided that was it, it was not time to worry about myself, I had to deal with business, survival, that was all. And then, when I returned to my plans, I realized that this was a long time coming, that I still had to be healthy enough to drink to victory. And we need to try to
17:59 set up, so to speak, a normal life. That's how normal it can be . In these conditions, we need to return to normal life. We need to return to sports, to a certain ritualization of procedures, to frequent visits to doctors, because health is needed a lot, for a long time. And this is precisely the return to certain ritual things. lifting, gymnastics, sports, training, plans, it brings you back to such, well, in a sense, automation of the process, which gives you, I don't know who, me inner strength, because it just becomes such a constant planning of life. You
18:44 return to the previous state and you understand, okay, the body somehow understands something, if you have returned to the state in which you felt before the beginning of this conditional catastrophe, yes, then you mean that you plan to plan, do, function for a long time . And this was an opportunity for me to bring it back to planning. And as soon as you return to planning the future, you are already moving into some kind of, well, conditional eternity, because you are already starting to live such a full life, which, of course, is simply overshadowed by worries, losses, uh, bad news, but this is no longer the
19:29 basis of your life. You just stand on it as a platform that becomes a new platform of reality. That is, to make sure that these challenges do not define my condition. Approximately so, you could say. Super. Let's move on. I also want to add that it might be easier for us to talk about this, yes, because mental health is such a serious word, yes, as they often say, cuckoo, yes, that is, what does each of us do as a leader of a business or a social circle, yes, in order to keep our cuckoo of health? Well, you know, right now there's a lot of talk about virtues, paradoxically, it's in the business environment that there's a lot of talk about virtues. Ugh. It's in the
20:15 business environment that they talk a lot about strategizing, right? So planning, strategizing, and metaphors, uncertainty, narratives, and other things that are metaphysical, it's just there. And this is very important, because it is precisely this that gives this perspective, including the perspective into eternity. But for me, well, for me, many practices that are known to humanity have become actualized, which in principle have been preached and practiced in a certain way for many centuries, but at a certain period their forms became
21:02 irrelevant. The forms themselves, well, for example, a simple example. Everyone knows the word fasting and everyone says it's about food. Moreover, everyone then says that it's not about food, but they still talk about food. But let's imagine, well, for many years we've been trying to talk about the need for an informational fast. And this is about mental health. That is, when a person... And what is fasting anyway? You know, it sounds very religious, but fasting is a practice that allows a person to consciously limit themselves. informational asceticism. Yes. And it turns out that if a person can consciously limit their, I don't know, their passion for
21:49 gadgets and for these news feeds, and moreover, perhaps they would want to do it. And the experience of this conscious self-restraint, Ugh. which probably starts somewhere with that food, and then starts with what keeps you, well, on your toes . Because in reality, we perceive, for example, fasting as a restriction, but in reality it is a liberation when you are not dependent on your own passions and can, well, control them conditionally. At least sometimes, yes, at least sometimes. You have one opportunity today, and another opportunity tomorrow. War does this very quickly. But you remain yourself, no matter what
22:36 resource you have, for example, you still do your job with the resource you have. And the last thing, actually, how about due to blackouts, when sometimes the connection was completely lost, and we, when we hadn't yet learned how to stretch fiber optics and other accesses to the network, didn't know how, we simply did n't have time. We didn't have time. Yes, yes, well, it just didn't come right away. It so happened that I actually started reading e-books. Aha. And so I got carried away, and I started reading what I read as a teenager. Well, let's talk about science fiction. Then I moved on to more complex texts, to more
23:23 profound books. And it fascinated me so much that now, when I have a free minute, for example, waiting for an interview, I don't watch the news, but I read another e-book. God, how lucky you are. I coordinate the documents. From the same gadget. No, but you know, it seems to me that giving yourself this, well, opportunity to drop out of this information field and limit it is important. This does not apply to work. Work must be done. Well, I'm very supportive of this during working hours, as was just said. 24x7. Yes, Georgy, I really support it, because I think that truly, from the point of view of maintaining mental health, properly
24:08 structuring work with information is one of the basic tools and it needs to be mastered. Olya, how are you? Well, I want to say, first of all, that it's still individual for everyone, that what works for you, and for someone else it might, well, have a completely different effect . I have certain things with Kokuhai even before the start of a full-scale invasion, because really, when you are in business, with a large number of tasks, when the volumes are very large, you have a question about how to protect yourself, your psychological health, your attitude. And if there, well, there are people who notice that I'm practically
24:55 absent from social networks, yes, I mean I build a lot for myself, well, someone says: "This is a bubble, everyone has their own, because if you're on social networks, it's formed there thanks to the information flows, the news you see, they throw it at you and you somehow drown in this information, yes, and what's happening around you is not you creating this bubble, but the social network is doing it for you. And when I cut it off, although it would seem, yes, you're in telecom and communications, a bunch of things, I decided for myself that I won't be on social networks as an individual, personal person, that is, as an SEO, as a company, we are present there, but I decided for myself that I want to manage my
25:41 information flow, and not, let's say, a travel flow or some information space there will form and throw information at me, which they somehow thought would make me want it interesting, and managing my state, absolutely my life, my state, my interests. I am very, let's say, yes, I protect these things. This is the first. Secondly, and when during a full-scale invasion, uh, the word backup - it became my second, probably, word, or maybe even the main one in the business, because we understood when the first, uh, explosions began, that in order not to lose consciousness and not to lose control at all, we created a framework for ourselves
26:29 that allowed us to focus on what. And it was three things. The first is to keep in touch as soon as we can. The second is the safety of our people. And third, everywhere we can help, we must do it. We opened our warehouses, we shipped phones, military SIM cards, did everything where we could be useful. And we understood that this is a critical, uh, service, and we need to do everything. We were probably lucky, yes, because we really understood the meaning, uh, why we all stayed in Ukraine, because the basic state was all left in Ukraine. We couldn't afford to go abroad, because, well, everything was, uh, located, uh, right on the territory of Ukraine. And this helped somehow
27:14 not to lose all these prices, yes, and we moved very confidently. Then we understood, because somewhere in May we started to do the same, we resumed forecasting, we already felt like formulating the budget for the next year. Well, somehow after the de-occupation of Bucha and everything else, we somehow entered such an operational stream and it became more or less clear how and what. Well, then we understood that we need to move not only in the operational stream and constantly close some hot topics of the task, uh, in connection with challenges. We need the brain to start working on some other topics. And we started to strategize and to think about the future, what investments, what
27:59 technologies, because the world will not wait until the war is over and when we win and wait until we can introduce these technologies. in order to rebuild Ukraine. By the way, when we were there at all these conferences, I always say: "Rebuild". I don't want a cover, I want a new Ukraine. I want the country not to rebuild, but to rise and become technological, so that we are competitive in, well, there in the whole universe, and not what we had before the war, right? And that's why we will need new technologies. They must be for some kind of infrastructure. And our task is to create infrastructure, so that later on this infrastructure there is, as you know, such a basis, yes, then new products, new technologies, new production, which is already technological there. And we and the teams, with our team, somehow
28:47 discussed all this for ourselves. It somehow became easier for us to even breathe, because when you just decide every day military tasks, well, I mean not military ones, namely the challenge is connected with the war, you somehow, well, just don't see the future and prospects. And it helped a lot. If in private, then I agree with my kokukha every time. I tell her: "Darling, Olechka, well, it's still good, you have a basement at home, you did everything you could. There are statistics, I have a mathematical mind. "Well, look, according to statistics, the chances that it will fly to you are 0, 0, or something. Therefore, my dear, go to bed. Oh, the shaheeds have started flying. I need to quickly run to my basement, fall asleep, just to be able to get at least a little sleep. And when I talk to myself from the point of view of the probability of all
29:34 these statistical things, I somehow manage to agree that, first of all, I did the maximum that I could. I also have three generators. Well, everything that is possible, everything that is. That's what we did in business in order to make a backup. Sometimes my husband says to me: "Hey, listen, you already know everything about generators, about solar panels and some other things. Because I made a list for myself , everything I could." I'll tell you a secret. My husband and I even made 100 cans of stew. We think that if there is no electricity, we have a stew that opens. We will heat the water outside. There is instant pasta.
30:21 We bought supplies for 3 minutes. Well, so that we don't go hungry. Then we made adjika, because we understood that we needed to have some fruits, oh, some vegetables, and freeze the fruits. Well, that is, I didn't just approach it from the point of view of energy security, but from the point of view of food, water. And, well, I think, well, I also equipped the basement. I think I did everything I could . So, Olya, calm down. We will win in all situations, no matter what . The main thing is to live to be sane, because I want to celebrate this victory loudly, like Boris. And I must have the health for it. And what if I'll be sick, I won't be able to drink? Well, why do I need all this? So I made an agreement with myself and somehow I immediately felt better.
31:06 Great. Listen, I want to say a little from the point of view of psychology, a little to say some compliments to the leaders of business and society. Because when we talk about the mental health of a person in general, we sometimes don't take into account that sometimes we think that this can be learned and this can really be learned, if there is still a very good basic potential. People who become leaders in business or in society, uh, they have some special features in their personality, as such, relatively speaking, che h traits of character, yes, let's say so. And as a psychologist I will say this thing that there is a very, very reliable correlation. I have been doing this for a long time. I know that very often
31:54 business leaders have a very developed what psychology calls the emotional-volitional sphere of the personality. That is, this is an understanding of their emotions, the ability to own their emotions, to control them manifestation. And to control not in the sense of an external reaction, but to control the internal state. That is, many of you have basic skills from childhood in this better than others. And indeed, business leaders hold the blow quite well, relatively speaking, because such a character, yes, challenges are worked out, yes, and very often leaders have an extraordinary ability to will, that is, to create discipline, to create a routine, ah, regardless of the fact that there is no
32:40 prospect, yes, to take actions that lead to the prospect appearing, yes, shared with the team. By the way, Boris, I very much support the idea that for me this is a sign of a strong leader when a leader can say: "And I don't know the answer, I suggest we look for it together." Yes, usually I led you somewhere, but today it's a little different. Let's see together where we are moving, for example. Yes. That's why psychologically, very often you already have great potential. It's very cool. It really takes us out, helps to take it out, right? On the other hand, there is a payoff for this, and we also know this from scientific experience. This is the so-called delayed consequences. Well, for example, yes, we know that people who have very good
33:25 emotional willpower control, yes, and discipline, they tend to suppress their feelings sometimes, yes, and this leads to the fact that , personally, men, excuse me, Zhenov was a little lucky, luckier, to the earlier development of coronary problems, heart problems and the like. That is, there are some such dependencies. For example, I am for us to take care of this at the level of prevention . Well, for example, I will give you one more time. From psychology there is such a concept as containment. We have already encountered this, right? So what is so simple, what is meant, right? People need to contain their feelings in another person, that is, just to talk themselves out of it. So what are we saying, right? Indeed, it creates
34:10 relief for the personal state. And I I often see how business leaders are such containers for their subordinates. Subordinates dump their problems, burden the leader, and the leader helps, holds, and suggests how to deal with it. But I always have a question: who is a container for a business leader? Yes? And does he have someone with whom he can sincerely share his feelings and slightly reduce the pressure on his psychological state? And the question, maybe a little frankly, do you have someone with whom you can share your feelings, with whom you can talk frankly and, well, maybe show temporary weakness there?
34:57 I have a cat. Tell me how it works. I also have a cat. Yes, how does it work? If, well, without humor, then we have a big team. We have five companies now and somewhere in the direct a-a department I have about 17-18 people. And it was about the container that we once had the very top session and we also discussed it, what ah The leader is not obliged to do this. If he is really ready, he has the resources for this, he does it. If not, there are other team members who should come to the rescue. their colleagues. Yeah. That is, share this role with others. Yes, because we even
35:43 see that depending on the time, everyone reacts differently. That is, we look, well , well, for example, there, uh, in the spring some had some problems there and we see that one of the team members is under stress. He needs to be, well, somehow supported. And it is precisely when there are even transfunctional things, you understand that now a man or woman is in such a state that support is needed. Even if he is lying down, we us, that it is not necessary to blame, we need to support. You do not need to give him feedback, that he is wrong, something like that, you know, breathe, understand that it is difficult for him now, support him, and then, when he goes through this critical state, sit down and say: "Well, listen, dude, well, you have already been "That's not true, let's talk about all these things there." And these are the kinds of
36:30 practices that need to be done in the team, there, because one leader won't make it. Well, that is, or he will simply destroy himself from the inside. And usually I agree that sometimes we also need to say that we are just people, we have weaknesses. We can also say: "Listen, I can't listen to you today . I had a couple of such cases when I said: "I can't, well, I understand that you're tired, but right now I don't have the resources either. Come on, or a little later, but please contact someone on the team who is more or less a normal resource. I believe that such sincerity and such, well, such behavior is a sign of real strength. Because taking care of yourself right now, yes, in order to come back with help tomorrow, will be more useful. Yes, more useful than not helping yourself and, well
37:16 , completely drowning yourself. Well, that is, it won't be useful to anyone. Great. Thank you. I don't have a cat. But I have a wife, yes, with whom we, so to speak, were lucky. I always say when I come back from the business strip: "Why do n't I have a wife?" That. That. And with whom we have been friends for over 40 years in marriage. Almost 40 years, yes. And This is one story, probably. It's important family. And if, well, I think this is also an important point. On the one hand, we shouldn't bring our problems into the family, but on the other hand, if we don't bring our problems, that is, we shouldn't learn to bring them correctly, right? That is, well, this, that
38:03 is, because if we completely close ourselves off and there's one life there, here's another life, that's a problem. Or if we completely pile on our whole life, so this is again this ability to balance, right? Yes. The ability to feel, right? That's important. On the other hand, it so happened that somehow I still have friends, yes, and not just friends, but friends who have united in a kind of mini-men's club, right? Yeah. And there is, well, this annual trip for a few days, and where those things are discussed, which men, as they usually
38:50 discuss women, turn out to be other things. No, yes, these are other friends. These are other friends. These are other friends, other outings. Yes. But these, it seems to me, are important practices and they are important for men. where there are those friends with whom you can discuss these stories and who, well, in some sense understand the mechanisms of these, yes. That's the second story. The third story, well, let's say , how can I say it in a not very religious way, yes? Well, in the end there is, yes, well , in the end there is that Sunday when you come to church and that is also a very important story. And there are also friends, there is this community with whom you pray together, and
39:37 with whom you then drink coffee, communicate. And this is some other dimension, uh, in which you can, probably, well, get this spiritual support, which also seems to me important. These can be individual practices, they can be joint practices. They can be religious, they can be non-religious, cultural. I think that this component, this component is also important. And, probably, well, I don't know, so to speak, It's hard for me to advise business people, yes, they understand me better, but not all my life is business, yes, that is, not 247. Yes, I support it, because it
40:22 combines, as I said, it combines several useful practices. In fact, there is also a distribution in society. There is a close circle with whom you can share your feelings. First. Secondly, this is what Boris said. There is ritualization here, yes, something stable, yes, you understand, no matter what, but on Sunday I go there. And it always works, right? So no matter what , we go there and there And that's why it's a great combination, I think. Plus, I've been listening to music all my life, at different times, for different moods, but sometimes during Lent I limit myself in this and listen and listen to audiobooks and in one way or another I benefit. Great. Thank you very much.
41:08 Baris, please, how are you with sharing feelings, do you have and do you Are you taking advantage of this opportunity to share your feelings? Well, a lot has already been said, and I really don't know, maybe it's a peculiarity, a peculiarity of the composition, eh, because I, you know, as I once read, that every Japanese person is born a Buddhist and dies a syntheist, right? That is, a person changes over time and life circumstances. That's why I'm such a, you know, strange strange help of an extrovert, an introvert in different in different situations. I understand very well. And I can transfer
41:54 business practices in some way, but this one is, you know, from the point of view of pragmatism, well, I always believe that the right question contains 80% of the answer. Therefore, if you want to get a high-quality answer or a high-quality reaction to your feelings, it's better to convey it to where it will be, from the point of view of preparedness. Therefore, I have a certain level of questions that I discuss with my family, yes, with my wife or with my children. I'm with something I'm not sharing because I'm hiding something or I don't want to overload you with
42:43 questions that I can't find answers to in this circle. And that's why we're probably sharing that. You said at the beginning that we're in the club of business leaders. And yes, in ours, I want to say, we talked about it today, that during the war the level of communities, small groups, the so-called ones, increased a lot. Well, we call small groups in different ways in different numbers of people, but the influence of small small groups is very, very growing now. And on the one hand, this is such a formation of responsibility, the formation of collective intelligence, but also this is also a psychiatric opportunity to feel like part of a community, where you're not alone,
43:31 where you can get around. You know, sometimes friends or partners call me there, or just some young startup teams there, they have the concept of tapping into someone, you need to tap into an idea, tap into a feeling, your understanding. If we return to the SEO club, in SOBI a lot of attention is paid not so much to development a person as an individual in business, because here all the mature businessmen, mature business leaders, but a lot of attention is paid to psychological or mental mental preparation, right? And for me, for example, the most important part of ritualization was the return of classes right from the beginning of the war, when
44:17 Sergey Proliyev called me and said that, well, we need to return to stoicism, because it's just the time, I say Sertorius, well, not the time for philosophy, he says, for stoicism it's the right time to return to finding new new support in yourself. And for me, this every Monday class for 3 years in the group in the stoic philosophy group has become a very important part, where we where you can be frank on a fundamentally different level. Because for me, this is a very important terminal device. Because when you communicate with someone, well, you need to know that you studied at similar universities, because it's very difficult to
45:02 explain some truths. When you study the basics of basic for 32 years The foundations of philosophy are moving, moving, developing together, internal reflections, you can sing about everything. There are no closed topics. War, personal relationships, political actions, everything, internal demons, everything that you have on the table. And this is a very important part. A very important part. I was very lucky with us, everyone has a different feeling, but I was very lucky with my Aspen group. That is, we are going to read texts once a quarter on a regular basis. We combine this with some activities, entertainment. It can be
45:47 cultural or physical entertainment. We do something together. And, of course, we always take one basic topic that we want to talk about. That is, there is always one basic challenge that we discuss, and even if we don't discuss it, it greets us. Therefore, uh, it's not just putting something in someone else's container. No, it's most likely, I would look at it differently for me, it's to put everything on the table , to connect the feelings of people who are not strangers to you, and to make a re- or re-adjust your attitude to the issue, or to make such, you know, such a subtle aja, such a system setting,
46:33 uh, when there are people around you who feel the influence of time in the same way, but differently . And so I can't say that I have any one of these, maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, but I have several possibilities, different levels of internal internal problems, the feeling of putting it out for consideration or giving it to someone else, holding it. Yeah. And without this it would be very, for me without these rituals it would be very difficult, because it has become a very important part of existence. I'll tell you how it is, as they say on YouTube, like, subscribe, bell. Completely subscribe to these thoughts. I'm glad Bor that you have this tool. I'm also familiar with it and it really helps. And
47:20 I hope that many people in the club use the opportunity of community in this sense. I want to return a little to this understanding, like rest. And what is real rest from the point of view of its benefits for our mental health, for our psyche, right? Because if we look at the idea that has been known for a very long time, well, let's say, in psychological and medical circles, but not always, of course, people come across it, uh, that there are several criteria that characterize real rest, which gives a reboot for our psyche. Yes. The first criterion is, uh, you should be responsible only for yourself during rest. That is, there is no responsibility for anyone or anything else. I just suggest you
48:05 think about it. That is, it is believed that if you are also responsible for someone during rest , you are not resting. Very interesting. Your psyche is not rebooted. Yes. The second context. Uh, the context of rest, uh, should not, you should, yes, not have in yourself, uh, a sense of competition, that rest should not be associated with the feeling that I am competing with someone, with something, yes, For example, and, for example, uh, such a party or a party is not considered rest, because it very often turns on a competitive feeling. Oh, what a bright joker he is, what a sense of humor he has, damn, and I'm not that cool. And this is also not rest for the psyche. That is, it's
48:51 better not to have the idea of competition, right? And the third element, uh, it's very simple, that rest is not just doing nothing, yes, such inactivity, yes? It is important to do something on rest that definitely gives you an additional positive emotion, that is, such dopamine plus, endorphin plus, something that brings pleasure, yes? Those are the three criteria. And very often, when we rest, we don't adhere to these criteria. The question is for you and about me, how do you use rest, is it for you, well, something that adds energy resources to you? Well, according to these criteria, I'm a doppelganger. These are two out of three. I'll
49:37 say it right away. And thank you very much. Here for This is what I will take with me from our meeting today, because I understood it at such a subcortical level, because what prevents me from resting when I organize recreation. And now I understand it very well about it. On the one hand, you know, like it's like a birthday. There are two basic formats. It's either a large number of guests, and these are children for them, not for you. Or when you go somewhere, you go out and you have a party for two, yes, and you don't do anything, because you've ordered a restaurant, tickets and you just move in this direction. So I
50:23 understand you very well. I must say that I have almost never had such a full-fledged rest in the last three years. I think so. I even forgot what a day off is. And only there, somewhere about, well, a little more than a year ago, I returned them to the company, well, and stopped gathering people on Saturdays and teleworking on Sundays. Well, now I try to relate more and more differently . Yes. And I can probably reboot briefly during the week, well, closer to the weekend I can probably do a short reboot. Conditionally, there are two hours of yoga. For me, it has a pretty cool effect. That's it. That's
51:09 it, by the way, yes. So I, you know, I do move in such small runs like, yes, or there half a week at home with a book, then go to the cinema with my wife, something like that. For me, it's just about equivalent now. I feel like, a week of vacation. A week of vacation approximately. But I told myself one hundred percent that I'm returning, I want to return to conditional vacations somewhere there at least from the end of this year. So I'm already starting to move there, move in that direction. Great. I'll also add right away, because, for example, for me it's, well, important as a tool, yes, and I try to manage my vacation. That is, how it looks for me
51:55 . For me to plan a quality vacation in the same way as to plan a business 100%. That is, I literally plan my time somewhere in the calendar and I understand that I, uh, will try not to let anything get into this time, because these are my hours, yes, and I will use them for my vacation. I understand that this adds a resource to me. I understand that this is not a waste of time. This is what I will increase, well, increase my energy level next week, conditionally speaking. I will tell you, uh, conditionally there I caught myself thinking that conditionally an hour of a stupid series Ugh. with a glass of wine without a phone. And this, in principle, is already
52:40 equivalent there can completely erase the day. In general, in principle, there is a good sense of the word. It's just that sometimes you understand that you just need to, that story, you just need to not give it up, I call them such manki tos. These are monkey thoughts, of which there are a lot. They are constantly in your head. And the only thing that helps is me I'm saying that yoga is very loaded, it allows you to switch off after breathing practices. This helps at the same time. Therefore, somehow switching off for at least an hour is already very good. Great. Olya, I had the only rest that you have? An experience and well, according to these criteria. It was when we went to an island
53:27 250 m by 500 and it was impossible to plan anything there . And I [ __ ] everyone. I say: "What excursions do you have?" They say: "Take a catamaran, ride around the island." I say: "Okay, what else? Well, you can also take a bike ride around the island. I say: "Okay, so what? Well, they're flying somewhere, what should they do? Let's take a car and drive." They tell me: "Well, Olga, well, you're on an island." Well, that means there's nothing here . All you have to do is take a car there, take a plane to some big island. And these days it was terrifying for me. It was horrible for you. I really, well, because when my husband and I are away for days, well, it's too much, it's generally, you know, when we go on vacation, even if it's all inclusive, we don't have to think about anything, I always say so, we have these plans for tomorrow
54:13 . And the man says: "Can we at least spend one day?" Well, no plan at all . Just pretend and do whatever you want for me. Well, how is it a state in the sense of what it is? Well, I mean, Olya, can we skip the stew on Sunday ? Well, can I just watch TV series? I, you know, I can't say that I really rested then . Well, I mean, I was so upset and upset. Well, I mean, I probably dug up this whole island. Well, that's what you said at first. Remember, you said that different tools work differently with different people. And there was another problem, it was during Covid. And there, uh, even the restaurants were open for an hour and a half. That is, you can't even plan breakfast from
54:58 6 to 7 or, for example, from 9 to 10, it was all a little bit from 7:30 to 9:30. And it was killing me. But if these criteria are proven, then for me it's still more like a massage. I really like it, yes, and about 40 minutes in I realize that I'm letting go. Well, because I stop thinking, uh, sometimes the first part of the massage. I think, yes, we need to, it's over now, we need to agree, then this meeting, then, uh, finalize the plans here and for about 30 minutes, for 30 minutes, the mankitats run away. I understand that I feel fingers on my body, on my body somewhere only on the Thank You Master, because it brings it back, well, it actually brings you back
55:45 to a sense of yourself. Yes, yes, yes. And this is the only tool and probably also the gym, well, there's a treadmill or an elliptical trainer, where you stand, you have no competition, because I'm purely based on calories, it doesn't matter how many hours you run there. You can think there, you can think there, you can think about paths. I ran, running is exhausting. I don't think that when you run at a good load, really, if you overload yourself, then maybe you can't think while running , because of course you think, because you have colitis here, look, one person once said that running is a kind of meditation. And if it's under a certain load, when there really isn't an
56:32 opportunity to think about anything else. You just think about how you control your breathing. controls life. Really, well, they tell me it's like, you know, kicking out with a wedge. If you have brain overload, in order to relieve it, you need to load your physics. I want to say, I say, I'll say it quickly, yes, yes, yes. Even in the gym, you can think, especially when I noticed that the gym is the most, I sometimes go to the gym, but it's the most stupid sport, because there you can really think, when you pull something iron, you can think. Game practices. Game practices. For me, it's impossible to think about it, it's simply impossible, because a reaction is needed. I play badminton and paddle tennis. Impossible. It makes no sense. You're the only one there, Ali. Well, there's a game and you
57:17 have to keep your eyes on the game object all the time . Either a valanchik or a ball. Must win. Strategy as you see. Well, this is a form of overload. You completely switch completely. You are in the game, you are in the excitement. You are in the game. And this is really an hour of pedal play. This is a systemic principle. The systemic principle, what you said, is just, well, actually, uh, well, I just want it to be heard here, yes, that physics saves the psyche. Well, we know this, we know this from psychology, we know this from medicine. And even now I'll say a little bad things for a psychotherapist, relatively speaking, but now it's a well-known fact that sometimes psychotherapists, when they encounter cases of, well, let's say, moderate depression, not
58:02 very severe, and they see that the therapy isn't working very well, they highly recommend their clients to exercise, because it shows good progress, right? The main discipline is to choose a physical activity that you enjoy. Yes, either a game, or a running, or something like that. And straight away, well, that is, therapists start recommending, like, I can't help, relatively speaking, yes, go do physical education, it will save you a little. George, how are you feeling? I'm so tired, Somehow I just thought so, I thought somehow very early in my life I understood a few things . First of all, I don't
58:50 want to work there from 8 am to 5 pm. So I don't work at all, but that doesn't mean I don't do anything. So, uh, and my conditional job is my life. Well, that's life, I live it regardless . And I also never understood the vacation format. Well, it's your life again. Well, if you work here, rest here, then I completely agree that you don't need to run away somewhere, go to find that hour in the afternoon, to do something that, well, I do n't know, relieves you of tension, inspires you or, well, in
59:35 that sense, yes, a book is always with you. You can turn on the music at any time. Well, if you want to sleep for an hour, go lie down and sleep. Yes, this is also an important point. But if you think, I'm going to do this here, work, work, work, work, and then rest, no-no, no, no, no, then it's impossible. And thank you very much, because I punish myself so much , I think, God, you can't even rest. Do you know when I finally understood this? When I, uh, one day, late, I read the wise Solomon, I think it would be useful for all people who do a lot in life, right? That doesn't mean they don't work. So there is such advice from Solomon. There: "My son, do not take on many
1:00:22 tasks, because through many tasks you will always be guilty." Aha. This is a first, right? Well, that is, what is the opinion? There are three opinions. First, second thought: don't take on too many things. And when you read this, when you've already taken on a lot of work, it's kind of post-facto advice, but it's very useful. [music] there in Church Slavonic, eh, because you can't avoid guilt. Well, that is, no no no well no not because you will always be guilty, right? You will be guilty if sometimes you feel right in front of yourself and you will try to catch up, but you won't catch up. Ugh. Ugh. But most importantly, you can't run away . Ugh. That is, if you have already taken on the task,
1:01:11 then be calm, yes, because you will be guilty, and you will not be able to do everything in time , and still, so to speak, you will not escape this responsibility. If you are calm at this moment, you will find an hour to rest. You won't dream that your vacation is an island. In five years, I deserve an island, but in five years. So it seems to me that this one and you are living your own life. I just recently had such a humorous situation, there was such a serious conversation about vocation. Ugh. That's it. Well, everyone talked about their calling in life. And I was the last. And everyone just talked a lot seriously. Well, I'm the
1:01:57 last one to say: "Listen, I realized while listening to you that for me, a calling is being called, I went." Ugh. That doesn't mean I don't give up anything, but I choose where I go. That's right, but I take any challenge or any suggestion as a calling. I take him seriously. I am and this means my life. I treat any business as a matter of life. And this is important, even the simplest one. And if I don't need it, I'll give it up. No matter how useful it may seem to me. 100%. I fully support it. This could be such a good understanding, so close to the finale, that
1:02:43 I don't perceive my work as work. That is, for me too, because I don't need war, I don't need rest. This is part, this is an important part of life. Switching, yes, overloading, I agree. rebooting, subsequently, increased productivity, but that doesn't mean it's because I'm really, really tired of my work. No, not in any sense. Therefore, for me, rest is a kind of conditional thing. Switching. Good. Oh, by the way, when I was talking about the joke about "I don't stress," yes, I remembered a meme that's very popular right now. Well, many people watched this movie Bridge of Spies, yes, there was a character there who was like a recruited spy, yes, there and there he went through a
1:03:30 trial and Tom Hanks plays like someone who is , yes, a defense attorney. Well, well, his role is a little complicated there, but there you're always not worried, and here he's always so Nordic, calm, saying: "Aren't you worried?" And he: " What does that help?" Do you remember in what sense he says this to him? He tells him: "I'm here to save you from the electric chair. Can you at least shake the brush?" And he says: "And he turns to him like this and says: "I see that he is saying, in part, "Can this really help?" Yes, yes. And this was really just a fantastic thing for me. Just fine, friends, thank you very much for our conversation. I hope it turned out interesting and fun. Yes. Uh, we need to finish our time. If anyone wants, they can take a moment to put forward a thesis that
1:04:16 they feel they didn't have time to say and put it on our common table. Well, maybe there is some idea. Well, I'll start, for sure. Thank you very much to everyone, because there are several insights that I also took with me. It was very useful even there to listen from the other side, from a different angle, how it all happens and for the openness. Thank you very much. I thought, you know, we've been talking about rest, we talk a lot about winning, but winning is like rest. This is not somewhere far away , but in the Ukrainian language, this is the word victory. These are not Russian victories after adversity, but rather the afterlife. And so victory is a process. And that means victory now. And we are
1:05:03 really winning now. And this should also help our mental health. Class. I'm constantly looking for new time slots that I'm not using yet. And I used to feel like the journey from point A to point B was a very wrong one, the journey on a business trip, the journey on vacation, was like time that was lost. and which one should and which one should go through quickly and then after a while I began to understand that this is a very important part of my life. Well, relatively speaking, the path is everything, right? And
1:05:48 that's why I try to turn every trip, business trip, business trip, vacation, every journey into something useful, interesting, and enjoyable. And then I realized that sometimes the journey itself becomes a more important part for me than the goal or the point where I arrived. Because at that point everything always ends, and the journey is a process of cognition, feeling everything, thoughts with oneself at the wheel, for example. Therefore, I would like to recommend not to waste time, because there are no bad times. It's just our attitude towards this time that creates good or bad times. Friends, thank you very much. I feel like we're all in the same bubble, even though we've
1:06:33 tried to create diversity, psychology, spirituality, business, but we're still very, very similar. I'm really into this idea because I like the saying that being human means being on a path, right? It's about feeling like you have a path and you're moving somewhere. Again, about the idea of perspective. And it's very scary for a person to lose track of where you're going or if you're not going anywhere, right? Therefore, friends, I wish you success. Anyway, please take care of your mental health, okay? And not forgetting about the physical, I don't forget. Physics saves the psyche, yes. Thank you all. I hope our viewers will find it interesting. [music]
1:07:18 Yeah.
