0:08 This is the High Alpha Hooligans podcast with your hosts, Fifi, Scud, and Jimmy Chaos. Fire up those afterburners and let's dive in. >> Yeah, Scud. So, you remember when we were kids and we'd take like a chair and we'd lay it down forward and we'd take the little like living room TV and we'd pull it in, drape a blanket over us and we're like, "Look, it's like I'm actually there." And we're playing like N64 Star Fox and we were like pretending that we're like flying the game like actually in the cockpit. >> Yeah, >> dude. I was at Fifi's place last week and he has that exact same setup at his computer and he's like, "Bro, it's just like VR." And I was like, "Bro, you can't even look around." He's like, "Yeah, I can look." And he actually has like a 13-in
0:55 like Raspberry Pi panel duct taped to like this head harness. It's like one of those, you know, beer straw things. And he actually coordinates when he like flew his camera to left and right. He actually moves with it. He's like, "Bro, I got head tracking and everything." I was like, "That does not count, dude. Does not count." >> You keeping secrets. >> I'm I'm just going to try to figure out how to kick Jimmy from the room real quick. You guys just keep going. >> I'm sorry. I'm giving away I'm giving away trade secrets. Welcome hooligans to another episode of High for Info Hooligans where we continue to kick the [ __ ] out of Fifi every episode. Uh I'm Scott as always. We've got Fifi and Jimmy Chaos. And if you're watching, you can see we have a guest with us. I'll introduce him in just a moment.
1:41 First, thanks to our sponsor, uh Luck Fox 3 Managed Solutions always thank you for uh supporting us and giving us all the servers and all the help and helping us build a community. Uh and then recognize our partners, Eagle Dynamics, uh Heat Blur, Grenelli Design, uh SFL, and uh we have a guest today. Today is if you couldn't tell from Jimmy's awesome intro. We don't we we never know what the person's going to say when we start. So, it's always like we always go in completely blind and cold on this. That was a good one. Uh this episode is going to be about VR, and I know we've covered VR in the past. We've talked about VR versus flat panel versus track IR and we've talked about different VR headsets and and and price points and what may be right for different people. This episode is about VR, but we have
2:28 the guest on with us. Yukman is here. He is the the director of communications or head of communications for Pimax. So, we got Pyax in the house. >> Big deal, guys. >> Yeah. Thanks for being here. Um, real quick, we we need to we need to come clean about how this episode came about. >> Oh, yes, please. Story time. So, if for everybody who watches us regularly, you know, we had our we had our uh our Christmas episode, our holiday episode, and we had our naughty nice list, and you know, Jimmy and Scud put put Pimax on the naughty list, and through the great vining community, uh we'll let y tell this actual story about how we heard about it, but uh it made its way back to Pimax. They reached out
3:15 to us and we started talking and then now they're here. So, this is really cool. Jimmy Jimmy did a lot of work >> uh communicating back and forth. I have just sat by the wayside and panicked about other things instead. But, so this is really cool. This is really really cool. And I just want to I want to So, if you guys haven't seen the the the the holiday episode, go back and look at the naughty nice list at least for that so you can understand the context about what what this conversation is about. Yes. But it it worked and it and it surprised us cuz we do that all the time where we we call out >> well when we'll be like, "Hey, if you guys want to come on and talk to us about it and nobody ever answers and then all of a sudden Pimax answers and we're like, "Oh, oh, okay. All right, cool. Let's do this."
4:01 >> Right. >> Maybe it'll work in the future some more. Uh Yap, thank you for being here. Uh do you want to to tell our listeners and viewers a little about yourself? I think he's catching up. >> Okay. His video is catching up. There he is. >> Yeah. Yeah. The floor is yours if you wanted to to tell everyone about yourself. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for having me. I'm um uh it's almost Chinese New Year tonight. So, um I'm out of the city. This is not the headquarters of Pyax. So, we drove like five hours. >> Looks pretty good, though. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in this host hotel and I'm in the Mong room, but I was using the Wi-Fi of another room, but I think they left, so they closed the Wi-Fi. Uh, so I'm
4:47 running on another Wi-Fi again. But, um, >> Perfect. >> Yeah. Um I think uh we're always active on not just me a lot of people from the company active on a lot of uh uh Discord servers and um or or Reddit, Twitter, Facebook groups. Actually spending too much time there maybe. But then uh somebody on the I think it was the VI Flight Sim guy Discord group said uh hey these guys have some remarks or questions but I think it was Prime and and Auto IPD. >> Yep. Um so I just uh I was like okay let's have a look and and answer it. Yeah I think it's quite simple. Um and then yeah jumping topic about me. I'm from the Ne Netherlands. Um and I've
5:33 been living in China for eight over eight years now and three four years at Pimex. Uh I have more background in uh sim racing. That's that's how I really got to know Pyax. was quite active in iRacing, also helping do the communication for some sim racing teams and uh some sim racing uh like plugins and then from there I I got into VR. >> That's nice. Any any Redline racing team iRacing? >> I've been a lot in touch with them a lot. I think they have some Pimax headsets. Uh but I think the pro racers in in uh in sim racing they are still quite reluctant to to use VR headsets for multiple reasons.
6:19 >> And are they what mostly triple monitor setups or something like that? >> Yeah. Uh I think because pro races they will they will use that that they will train for like so many hours a day and you get Yeah. right now. Part of it is belief, part of it is actual performance. Whether you maybe the the 0.5% top racers, they get slightly more performance out of flat monitors, but or it's like um what people think is is true. So, this is not it's very hard to test also, but I also understand if you have to wear a headset for like six hours a day, maybe it it is a bit much, but the headsets are are coming lighter and smaller also. >> Oh, yeah. He sees God. See God. Now, now we can play this game where we we are now
7:05 within the circle of the six degrees of separation from Max for Stappen. Just putting it out there. >> We are. >> So, anyways, I'm out. Continue. >> I'm going to sit here and stare at my flat panel. Now, >> one thing I I kind of want to highlight with this is we for Christmas, we did the not your nice list. Um, and I wouldn't say we put Pax on Blast. we just you know voiced some frustration that was in the community and immediately Pimax yeah started you know he commented I think within 3 days of us releasing it said hey you know uh we want to clear the here's the actual answers to your questions here's what's actually going on and he also emailed us and from the start he was immediately engaging with wanting to answer the
7:51 questions or shed light on what we wanted answered which was the um auto IPD and then the prime payment program. Um, but we'll we'll get into that. Um, but I think it's a it's I think it's a big deal when a company takes the time to engage with the >> Oh, absolutely. >> user like us, you know, and say, "Hey, you know, let me help you like understand or, you know, get to the the right answer." So, I think you being here today is is a big, you know, gold star for Pimax. I don't think it's just uh Pimex helping users. It's also the other way around because I think we uh like don't take this the wrong way like we understand headsets perfectly well. I think how to make them and how to design but in terms
8:38 of using them mostly users like in for DCS you guys know way more about that. So um and I think we all I think we're a relatively big company but we're not massive. So, we're quite always easy to reach and um I think we'll always reach out to people or connect with people as long as they're not memeing or like doing some clickbait rate bait stuff. So, any question we'll we'll >> we'll always um try to answer. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah, that's good. And and yeah, unfortunately on Reddit and some of these other forums, there are a lot of I wouldn't say a lot. We've talked about it before, the the loud minority of toxic people that want to complain and rage bait like
9:24 you said. Um, you got to filter through that and get to the the people that actually need the help and care. >> But I also think on Reddit some and I can understand um some people have either misunderstood something or or we did make a mistake and then uh but usually email is very cold, right? So um sometimes an email is sent and uh it it's is it's taken the wrong way or but then usually when a customer is um frustrated or misunderstood something I always suggest people just give them a call like do a Google meets and then and then people uh it it just works so much better >> and then people can explain. Yeah.
10:09 >> So as as head of communications at Pinemax, what does what does that mean? What is what is your job like? What does your job entail and what do you what do you focus on and do like kind of on a regular basis? >> I think very very simple. I think make more people know about Pimex and then when they know about Pimex when they hear about Pinemax it should be a good or positive impression. So it's quite broad but um and then we our department we also do all the new product launches. So before they uh after a product is out of pre-order stage. So it's like mass production is quite stable for a few weeks or months. Then uh then we give it to uh um those teams. But um so we do the all all the new videos. Yeah. Just
10:57 launching the the product. So right now we're busy launching the Dream Air and Dream Air SE. Uh so that's being sent to some media and the first batch of users and we made videos explaining all the technical features or the design philosophy around the headset >> when interesting. So >> when do you think >> Oh no. >> No, it's fine. >> No, I it's uh No, it's it's a cool question. So, a question just popped up was like how from a production standpoint because it's kind of it's kind of interesting to me how you know how long before you start advertising for your and like getting the word out about your product like you you're you guys are obviously having to make it months beforehand and then like when you
11:44 have enough to feel like okay we can you know launch it to the public. So you're how like how does that process look like? because sometimes cuz that's really that's really interesting to me because we have things that we're trying to roll out as well and you know I'm just I'm always trying to figure out when when we have to >> when's the right time with it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's a good question or good point because that's also one of the critiques of Pyax which is quite fair. Um uh announcing shipping dates and and and and the time between announcing a product and then actually shipping. I think uh I think sometimes we do get it right and then sometimes we get it a little bit wrong. I think the crystal light um I think Jimmy you mentioned that from that point you were following
12:30 Pimex. I think that was announced April to 2024 and then that was that started to ship in the next month basically. Um and I think that that one we did do really well. Maybe it was too short because some people VR headset is not something you buy every month. Um, so >> unless you're Jimmy >> Jimmy buys a new headset every month. >> No, that's not true. >> I I've been bored since I got the Super >> I think most people they don't buy a headset uh every month. So, I think it's fine to announce a little bit earlier. So, like, okay, they're basically saying this is coming. Um, you don't have if if you wait a little bit, it's coming. But and also we can get some feedback on on those features. So um I think with the
13:20 Crystal Super was kind of okay but then the dream air I think there's too too long a gap between uh announcing it and then actually shipping which started uh last week. Um >> what's a drastically different system right? Uh not in some ways yes was I guess first small form factor headset from Pimex and uh maybe the most difficult part of designing a VR headset is actually the ergonomics um at least for Pimex we we but this is what a lot of if you look at any headset people complain most about ergonomics maybe because you cannot please everyone everyone's head shape is different like Apple Vision Pro people love to complain about how heavy it is and then uh any headset I don't
14:07 maybe don't want to pick a particular one but um and then the dream air um in that time we still changed the panel supplier we changed the lens designs so it also got some improvements uh we also changed ergonomics tweaked a little bit um yeah that took took more time than we uh than we had but but then um last year October last year May we had some content creators visit our office to try out the prototype and then in October we did in US and Germany and in January at CES. So that all those moments are are still um uh feedback possibilities to improve the headset. So you could do that like
14:52 secretly and then and then announce it and and launch it. I guess that is what Apple or Meta can do also. they will announce it and immediately you can buy the iPhone or or Apple Vision Pro even that needed some time. But yeah, they they usually have way shorter times. Yeah. Um I know we're not diving into this yet, but one of the since you mentioned it, the form factor and and the fitting. I think uh one of the common things I've fought with in VR headsets is in addition to fit is ventilation >> and fogging of lenses and sweat because you know sometimes you're getting physical while you're playing certain games in VR >> and I've also heard uh things like like small form factor like big screen beyond
15:38 has some ventilation issues and time in in the headsets limited before it starts to fog up. Is that is that one of the challenges you guys face as well or is that something you think you've gotten dialed out? >> I think the cooling is quite well even uh because it has two fans uh quite for this size quite big big fans on the headset so they don't need to run super hard so they're quite silent and then there's uh a little bit of wind or air coming onto your head like into the headset so it will cool down not just the headset but also also your head. >> Oh, perfect. Yeah, that's one thing I never thought about that because with my Crystal Light that doesn't have any onboard cooling, but the Supra does. And when I would have the Crystal Light, I would have to sometimes if like my my
16:24 room's in the basement, you know, if it was cold and I put it on, you know, I get that little, you know, cold lens, hot face, you know, I have to be back out. But with the Super, you don't have to do that. So, I can It's cool you mentioned that because I never that never dawned on me until you mentioned it. Yeah, the crystal light has passive cooling. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, passively like this. I'm joking. >> some things on on there. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, it's a this is a DCS podcast. We're obviously talking with you and about VR, but it's a DCS podcast, so we've got to ask the question. Yep. Um, do you play >> uh a little bit? I use DCS. uh when we
17:09 have a new headset or any headset or uh I want to test the clarity or shoot some footage, then DCS is the obvious choice because I'm not saying this because it's on a DCS podcast, but the performance of DCS is just one of the best uh applications for VR uh in terms of clarity like the amount of resolution you can run at at really good frame rate. Um, but as as but I'm not on on your level. So I'm I'm sort of like this uh I use it mostly for testing and getting impression of the headset. I couldn't probably cannot take off a plane um and all the buttons and all the switches and and uh yeah, not at this level. >> Yeah, you're in good company because you're in good company because neither can we. We're we're terrible at it.
17:56 Don't don't think that we're actually any good at this. There's a reason why we do we do a podcast and we talk about it and we don't show anybody how we fly because it's it's it's pretty bad. I think it's also I'm also I'm before moving to China I did a lot of sim racing on I think quite a good level but now with the work time um and then at home we uh now we have a almost six month old baby there's no time >> thank you sorry >> it's it's also the job too I I imagine when you're at work you know it's all VR all pimax all video games. Terrible job to have, you know, and then when you go home, you probably want to, you know, let your
18:43 face breathe, right? >> Yeah. I do sometimes think I have like a double life because, uh, in in the weekend, I love to go like to this kind of place and as far as from society as possible. >> Uh, no high-tech. Um no but I think also for us the China market is quite small compared to uh what we call overseas which is like US Europe yeah or North America and then uh I think for several reason reasons I think uh people in I think Southeast Asia Asia they work long days super long days so you barely have any time to use VR after work. Uh, plus apartments are smaller. Um, you guys probably have quite a big
19:30 rig in our apartment. Um, if if I want to put a rig there, my wife's going to like >> Yeah. >> I've got a lot of space. Yeah. But every every time I want anything, be it more Sim rig or anything, any anytime I I go to buy a toy of any sort, the first question my wife asks is where's it going to live? >> But if I don't have an answer for that, then the then I don't get to buy it. >> If I have a place to put it, then I can buy it. >> And then they they uh rent or bought a new house and and this is such a small house. It's like they have two or three floors and and they have like a back garden and it was it's a small house but in Shanghai Yeah. You just have a stupid
20:18 tiny apartments. >> You live in a shoe box. >> Yeah. >> So, as an as an occasional DCS player testing, um is there anything you you gravitate to if you're going to jump in and do some testing for a new product? Is there a particular module you like to go flying that you enjoy? >> Probably F-16. Um, also because the F16 has like this night mission, so it's really good for testing uh, black levels of this of the panel. And I love the F-16. That's one of the maybe no particular reason. I just made those model planes as a kid and I remember the Spitfire and the F-16. I made multiple of those. >> For me, the F-16 is most classic >> fighter yet. >> All the shapes. >> Yep. >> Yeah.
21:03 >> Yeah. Well, and the Dutch Fly Vipers, too. >> Yeah, the Dutchly. Yeah, >> actually I've actually called in a couple bombs from Dutch. >> Anyways, >> not not something I was going to ask right now, but I'm going to ask it now anyways. Um, because you mentioned the Spitfire. >> Oh, yeah. If, and I don't know if you've seen this on any past episodes, the the question is if Tom Cruz as Ethan Hunt for Mission Impossible were to jump in a Mustang or Shan Conry as James Bond were to jump in a Spitfire, who would win? >> Yeah, probably uh Bruce James Bond. James Bond is I think James
21:50 Bond is more allowed to lose or like and then the story picks up from there so he will >> oh my good point is going >> that's an interesting point that's an interesting point >> it's almost balanced now >> the low and the James Bond movies are like he was even the last Bond I'm not spoiling anything I hope the last Bond movie did you watch that like >> I haven't seen that one I've been wanting to watch it >> did you watch the new Mission Impossible movie that was >> edge of my seat. >> That was good. >> Um, back to DCS as you are testing and and and playing the game. Are there any moments, especially as a VR, you know, as somebody that works at a VR company, were there any moments in
22:36 DCS and and especially with you coming from a racing background, >> were there moments in DCS that that were just kind of wow moments where you thought this is this is >> this is sticking with me? This is something really cool. Uh I I think with uh many VR games it's like uh how do you call horizontal or orientation especially in racing sims like you look at the apex and and you look at the next corner uh maybe you look a little bit down and then also in planes like from Microsoft light simulator maybe you have a dashboard up but mostly you're just watching horizontal but in DCS you have this open canopy and you can uh do maneuvers and then you look you you use VR way more than just horizontal orientation.
23:22 Um, and for me, if I get down to the ground, uh, full speed, then you really get this insane sense of speed. Um, >> yeah, >> I I would say uh, one of the great exp we demoed Dream Air with Dolph Reality. Um, >> and there was Mark doing the controls and they made this custom demo of a sort of a canyon run and they had this uh red plumes of smoke you had to follow and and he would do the flaps or starts while I was in VR. That was really great experience also and you sort of making these big bands and and you can look totally Yeah. through this canopy.
24:08 >> I bet besides >> Go ahead. So besides from So besides from I'm like talking like I'm a little girl right now. Uh so besides So besides from uh DCS, what are some of the other like big games that you see VR, especially your products being used in? >> Like there's, you know, obviously iRacing and things like that, but what are some other >> fun products that maybe a lot of people don't know about that are pretty popular >> that you that you see Primax being used for? Or is DC or is DCS the sole market for virtual reality headsets? >> DCS definitely like uh if if you look at uh how do you say this? you have a lot of I think for Pinemax traditionally a
24:54 lot of simulation games um because they're quite traditionally quite big headsets but that's fine if you if you seated it down because if if you're doing like Beat Saber or like uh I don't know some wild motion games then maybe you want a smaller headset but if you want top clarity then a bigger headset doesn't doesn't really matter so it's like DCS uh iRacing Microsoft Flight Simulator and then I said of course and recently we have Luma Ultimate. Um um so it's mostly those sim games. So and then and they're not typical VR games. When people talk about best VR games, they would mention uh Halfife Alex or or Beat Saber. >> Um but then these are sort of simulation games that also have VR. And I think
25:40 that's also part of the future. The distinction between normal game and VR game is like VR is just the option to experience the game. Um, but I I do I'm curious with the Dream Air because that's a much smaller headset if we will see more Pimex users in like VR chat because there's a lot more movement in there. People like to >> move or dance or hang out there the whole like they would spend eight hours in a session. Um, for that the smaller headset definitely works. I I don't know if that answers the question, but >> I think it does. But I also think it it it comes down to the type of game you play and how that drives your investment at at a price point. As people that are
26:27 casually playing VR games occasionally, BeatSaber once in a while might not be in a market for a more expensive, higher quality headset where people who are investing in sim gear, building flight sim rigs or racing rigs, they're already putting money into something and this is just another peripheral. >> Yeah. that that they can justify because of the type of gameplay. Um >> yeah, and that's also the market we I think we partly chose but also have to do because you have Meta coming in with the MetaQuest 3 3S which are um super good headsets for that price point. It's it's almost impossible to compete at that price level. So we uh I'm not saying we we are forced to but we have higher way higher end specs than the Quest. So then you already get um yeah
27:15 you have a higher price. So maybe naturally a little bit older older users compared to Quest Street >> like a bunch of 40year-olds DP >> not 40 and I fly on paper. >> No that's why he's on flat panel. >> This this is this is for this this we're we're here to talk to y not not not not bully me. We will always find a way to bully Fifi no matter who you're talking to. Um you mentioned a few times >> you mentioned a few times already uh um demonstrations and product stuff at like CES. Are are you guys going to be a part of Flight Sim Expo? >> Uh we don't have anything confirmed I think but I think we'll definitely be there and of course we'll definitely use the Pilates headsets. Yeah.
28:01 >> No, we look forward to seeing you there. We're going to be there as well. So it' be nice to >> stop by say hi to you guys. We can do shots and then and then turn the Pimax into drunk goggles and try to like drive golf carts in VR. What? Oh, come on. That would be so much fun. >> None of us drink, dude. >> That's true. That's true. I >> I did at one point work at a company where I was doing um in instruction and we had a a King Air Flight Sim. And I I can confirm that there have been times where we've had parties and and like the end of the party after everyone's drunk is to go try to land the sim to see who who can do it best after after a night of party. So yeah, VR would be great for that.
28:47 >> All right, so we've we've talked a little bit about games. Um let's talk a little bit more specifically about Pimax. Um, Pimax has been a part of DCS and that simulation level uh gaming for years now. Um, looking at Pimax in the history of Pinemax, what was the first headset that was really successful and really caught the attention of the the crowd of the the heavy sim user? Yeah, I think especially when PIMX went to or always has been wide field of view and high resolution. So I think the 5K but I think the 8K was the big breakthrough from Pinemax. That was before my time actually um before I joined PMX. Uh, so the 8K 8K X and then
29:37 we still continue to grow with the original crystal and I don't maybe there's no but I would say the 8K it's probably the >> yeah because you have this massive field of view which is great for uh fighter planes. >> Yeah, situational awareness. And then when the Crystal Light and the Super came out, >> did you guys expect the level of adoption that you >> received from the community? Because when the Crystal Light came out, I think it was instantly a hit with DCS and everybody was immediately evaluating it. Was there did that did Crystal Light and Super really increase your guys' um production or demand demand for production?
30:23 I think it's been fairly stable growth. Uh so with Crystal we saw that um and Crystal Light just made that specs available at a lower price point. Um and then we also did some we've also been active in in DCS communities and we did some promotions with Eco Dynamics. >> Mhm. Um, so I'm not sure how to answer this question, but uh it's it's it's not been I don't think it's one breakthrough moment. It's more like a series of of steps and we keep growing. >> So steady a steady then >> steady increase. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but we've been listening to a lot of TCS users. So we open we added uh um
31:09 openxarr runtime and quad views into pimix play because before you had to to download uh openxar toolkit or and then some uh other plugins. So that's all integrating that to make it uh more user friendly and then also with DCS uh we've sent shipped them several headsets to for debugging and uh I think we're always in touch with them. That's a that's actually something I was going to ask later, but I can ask now. How is that relationship? How does that work? Because I know you guys send them you guys work directly with Eagle Dynamics. Um, how does that relationship look for, you know, creating a a good product for their customer base, you know, for you guys to kind of, you know, hold hands to support the
31:55 community. How does that work? >> I think fairly simple. Uh I'm not sure who reached out first uh or um if if they wanted some headsets or we just offered like hey um or are you aware of this bug or uh sometimes maybe there was the bug on the PX play side. Uh it's been three three four years now we've been talking with them. If if we find a bug on their side we let let them know and and other other way around as well. Um, and if they want a new headset from us to test or we have a new headset, we just ship it to them. And then sometimes we do some promotional like like we did an interview with Wax and um they just ran a promotion also for the Crystal
32:41 Super Micro OLED. >> I think it's still running, right? Where if you purchase it, you get 40,000 um miles with ED, right? >> February 6th. >> Okay. Well, this is a no-brainer collaboration because uh this is one of the most played games on Pimex headsets and I think for VR Pimex would also run rank quite high. Um so we just want we have the same goal just better performance for us better experience for users. >> That's cool. So, with with the with the Dream Air series launching launched, I guess now um and coming out, what
33:29 would is that is that something that could be used with DCS, do you think? Have you tried it on DCS yet? What's your what's your what's your thoughts on that so far? Cuz obviously the Crystal Light and the Crystal Super are like the holy grails of the Pimax line for for using with DCS. And I I can't like Jimmy doesn't shut up whenever we keep when we fly about it. But um but what about for like somebody who's trying to be a little bit more costconscious? Does the Dream series is that a good is that a good stepping stone for it? >> Uh yes. So there's the Crystal series which has like a entry level which is Crystal Light and then this Crystal Super is more premium. >> We have more resolution and and more field of view. But the Crystal Light
34:14 still amazing performance and probably better uh price, much better price. And then the Dream Air, you have the Dream Air, which is 27 million pixels or like 4K peri. And then there's the Dream Air SE, which is 2.5K per eye. Uh that's also coming out uh quite soon. Uh and that that's much more affordable, I think, starting at 900. I mean, it's still a lot of money like starting at 900. the uh >> it kind of like so it kind of settles in between the crystal light and the the super then >> for pricing. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> What what are the lenses that are used on the Dream Air? Are they >> are they pancake lenses? >> Yeah.
35:00 And so it's quite interesting because uh uh yeah a few years ago we we were not super fan of pancake lenses but yeah you have the crystal light and the crystal super cqad oh yeah it says reconnecting but no um >> oh you're here still here. Yeah. >> Um crystal light crystal super version. They have QLED panels. The panels are quite big. So, and then uh with aspheric lenses, you get all the brightness from those panels. So, you have a different experience than pancake lenses. Uh and we would maybe down talk or like look look down a little bit on pancake lenses because um you lose like 85% of the
35:45 brightness from the panels. Uh and you would get a lot of glare from from those different layers and the clarity would not be as high as with aspheric lenses. M >> but pancake technology has has moved quite fast. Um I think the Apple Vision Pro clarity showed already was super high. So now there's this uh microLED optical engine for the Crystal Super uh still in a big headset. So it's super modular. You have really good audio if you have DMAS speakers and it's quite large but it's light and and the hard back strap is quite comfortable. Uh people think small headset is comfortable, but uh not necessarily because if you have a soft backstrap, the headset is just going to fall down
36:33 on your face. >> Um so it's it's probably very hard to say which headset will be best for DCS, but I'm quite impressed. We used the the Dream Air also at CES with with um with DCS. Quite impressed with the clarity from those panels. um the micro OLED sharpness and the quality is quite good. >> How does the Speaking of the Micro OLED um we actually have a couple guys who ordered it? Um I'm not one of them unfortunately. I didn't get on that. I have the super wide or the the ultra wide um Super. How does the three different models of the Super compared to each other? Because you have the 50 PPD, you have this 57 PPD, and then you have the Micro OLED. How do you how how
37:20 would you decide between those three which was right for you? >> Yeah, I can understand it's a bit confusing. The 50 PPD or like ultra wide and 57 PPD they have the same panel >> and 50 PPD and ultra wide use the same lenses. So the 50 PPD has has better overlap whereas the ultra wide you get more field of view and then the 57 PPD has this higher higher clarity >> clarity >> but but uh less field of view um this just there's no right answer more personal taste. I would I would pick the 50 PPD or the ultra wide. I'm not I'm not that sensitive to overlap. >> I got it right.
38:07 Um because I think field of view the more the better whereas >> overlap is sort of if you have enough it's enough. You don't need more. >> Um that's my take on it. But again there's there's no right or wrong. So >> I agree. I think field of views in this type of a game in DCS field of view when you're flying and you're looking at the cockpit in front of you maybe not so much. But when you get into a fight and you're turning and you're you're turning your head around to try to see behind you and keep eyes on a bandit, the more field of view you have, the easier it's going to be to to fight that fight. Um, that's why I asked about pancake lenses. Um, the clarity edge to edge on a pancake lens versus another lens. Even though the field of view wasn't much greater, when I went to a pancake lens headset, my ability to see an enemy on
38:52 the edge of my field of view and keep my eyes on them um, made the game a lot easier to play. So, I I would agree with you. I think field of view in this game is probably more important. >> Yeah, I think one is performance and one part is performance. Same as uh sim racing, you you uh you do it for your enjoyment, but to win is also part of your enjoyment. Uh >> yeah. >> Yeah. So, uh and the field of view also gives you way more immersion of of feeling of speed. So you see the world fly past you which is just uh >> what's your what is your favorite track >> favorite track >> for sure it's >> uh a man of culture I I
39:38 >> like Nerburg you feel like you got oge down >> yeah or ro is yeah flat out all the time >> depends on the car >> of course you got to go over the top and around that lefthand corner at the When when you do I'm I'm guessing occasionally you still play iRacing. What is your go-to car to drive then? >> It's actually the car I love the most is the Williams the the really old Williams F1 car uh >> with I don't know if it's a V I think it's a V10 engine. This is very snappy, easy, easy. Uh, you have to you have to then they added the McLaren and Mercedes F1 cars later, but they have like the
40:24 hybrid systems and you have you need to dial the buttons more and they feel like less on edge whereas the >> Williams car so finicky. So you have more character >> back in the golden era of Williams. Was that the one where they when they first like went to No, I was thinking I'm thinking earlier. I >> think it's a 2010. >> Yeah, 2010 car. For some reason, I was thinking earlier back to the 90s when Williams was like the first ones to use the actual paddle and the sequential gearboxes versus everybody using the standard uh standard gearboxes. And so I remember that was a big thing with between Williams and their clutch their clutches or something. And I thought you were thinking about that car.
41:10 Well, he is he at least still talking about a an era or a time when Williams was on top. >> The golden age of Williamson. >> Carlos science. >> Carlos science. The hair the hair will get us there. >> Um, so I would like to to talk to you about some of the reasons why the Pimax was on the naughty list and and just get your take on either our error or or maybe it's something real. Um, so I I tested a a crystal light and I did not have a lot of time to try to dial it in, but one of the things that I saw almost immediately that I didn't have the time to put the work in to to fine-tune was barrel distortion. Is that a common thing you guys hear about?
41:58 >> It's very hard to answer this one because it's it's very subjective. We do some we do see some people uh mention it. Um but I haven't I haven't really seen it for myself the the barrel distortion people say. Uh I I do think every headset there are some distortions. So um even on on the outer edge there there's no headset on the market now that that is perfect edge to edge or if you have to so it could be a IPD that is set wrong. It could be the the distance to the to the lens that is wrong. Uh it could be people are expecting too much. They expect too much from VR like they expect perfect edgeto edge clarity on on sharpness and and colors.
42:43 >> Sure. >> Or it could also be actual hardware issue still possible. Um, >> and well, for me, the edge to edge clarity wasn't as much of a big deal, but when I say barrel distortion, the and I think it was an IPD issue. It was the the center of the this the image was bulging towards me. Um, so like if I looked at the map in DCS, instead of straight grid lines in the center, they they they came towards me. They like bulged out towards me. And it was it was quite severe, but I think it was an IPD issue. I the first plane I flew in it was the Viper, the F-16, and the the center panel was bulging towards me so much that when I moved my head left and right, it made me dizzy. But I think like you said, I think that was probably an IPD issue. I didn't know if that was just me or if that was a more common
43:29 issue. Um, probably just me. >> I'm not I'm not sure. Some people mention mentioned this. Uh, they might not know you can set the IP like on the crystal light is not mechanical. you have to to do the set it with the >> Oh, yeah. It's a little >> turning wheel. Um, yeah, but again, it could it could be uh an issue with hardware. I'm not sure, but uh >> could be a lot of >> Yeah, >> by far the most common issue we hear is is connection issues. Um that's just uh um and and because that's a huge range of of uh uh causes either
44:14 Windows permissions or the used not a USB 3.0 connection or the connection is a little bit old or um or DCS users have like 70 USB peripherals already and then >> I have no idea what I'm talking about. or or if your if your PC already has like triple monitors and then you add another VR headset, it it will not turn on. So connection issues I think is the most common uh question like but by far we can solve by far most of those issues. >> Okay. And the other reason Oh, go ahead Jimmy. Do you have something for that? Yeah, I was going to say um since we're talking about IPD, why don't we talk about the auto IPD with the Super
45:01 >> That's what I was about to say. >> Oh, okay. Great minds think beautifully. >> Yeah, we're right on the same page. So, that that was the other So, I I had also had an opportunity to test the uh super on a very high-end system. Um more much more much more powerful than what I'm running. And one I I did not know DCS could look that good. I had I had no idea. Like it it was the the clarity and the detail was phenomenal flying in the the Nellis range and the amount of clarity I could see on mountains in the distance. I was I was blown away at the clarity of it. Um I did notice where I was not looking. So I could see that it was tracking my eyes and and where I was looking was really clear. I noticed that where I around the
45:46 peripheral I could see in my peripheral vision a lot of screen tearing and jittering that was somewhat distracting. I think with time I probably my mind would learn to to over overlook that. Um so it was really I was really impressed but one of the things that turned me off to it was that it was advertised with auto IPD and then auto IPD was turned off. And so I'm wondering what the story is behind why that's turned off because that was something I was I was really looking forward to if I were going to get this, especially having friends and guests come over and try out DCS and try out the SIM. Um, it's always this this this moment where you have to adjust manually and get the headset set up for each individual person. So auto IPD was something I was really excited about. What what happened with that?
46:33 >> Yeah, it's it's a very good point. So maybe the first when you talk about eye tracking and it doesn't uh there's some tearing or you can see the unsharp parts I think that could also be solved with eyetracking calibration. That's also something ideally you do with every new person this eye tracking calibration tool and you follow a dot. the auto IPD issue. um like like totally totally valid point of critique first of all like maybe we didn't realize it's for us internally we all know our own IPD and it's also quite easy to measure if you have a like if you have a ruler you go to a mirror you can you can measure your IPD uh plus if you get a little bit
47:18 wrong it's still okay we just had issue that uh at IPD the readings were not the heads said was not reading the for many users the IPD correct like there was still um for me it was quite correct usually like a small error margin but the the lenses can accommodate that but we had a lot of questions about users saying after IPD then it was not sharp so uh we just disabled it to improve it but and and for us there was not a so I hope I'm not offending anyone for us that was not a big deal because we're like you can use the headset you just set your own IPD and uh people can measure it. There's also there are also
48:03 some apps smartphone apps that can measure it but I also think those are quite uh they have a big range of error also in them. >> Mh. >> Um but for us that was not not a massive deal but then a lot of users they and and you guys mentioned it like hey you you promote with this which is yeah which is totally valid concern totally valid critique. Um so uh pretty sure it will come back but it needs to be accurate otherwise it just introduces more problems than it solves >> because it will give a reading but people will not realize the reading is wrong. >> Okay. >> So it's so it's being worked on then. >> Yeah. Is there is there do you think there may be a future version to where
48:50 in pip play it would be something that you can toggle on or off until it's you know a more flushed out feature. >> Yeah, you used to be able to turn off and on. Like I don't like outdid because I just set my IPD once and um I don't like this popup every time I I put on a headset is super annoying. I I think >> every time you put on the headset you get a popup >> and then here >> Yeah. So I would just set 65 turn off and >> oh my.5 >> yeah at at CS for instance we also uh the dream air didn't have auto IPD also not yet but then uh you sort of get the
49:35 hang a little bit of it like you can look at a person's face and sort of estimate >> how you've been doing this a while if you can measure somebody's IPD off of looking at this this impressive There's still like a margin of error, but the the sweet spot is big enough usually. And then you ask people, "Is it sharp?" If it's not sharp, then try again. >> Mhm. >> So, it's like that's like me with bra sizes. I can just look and I can tell. >> BP's been training for years. >> Focus. We're talking about virtual reality. >> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. >> Again, we're back in the gutter. Um, >> so then with the So I have a question then. Um, and this is something I didn't realize. So for the eyetracking, every
50:21 time you have a different user, you should recalibrate with the eyetracking then. >> Yeah, I think it's it's best to do that to do or or or not do it, but if you if you notice a problem, just recalibrate. I didn't even think about that because yeah, I don't know if you saw that but and then for the viewers who don't have a Pmax um when you open Pi Play there is a prompt right below eyetracking says calibrate and it puts you into a a white space and it says follow the little dots and you follow in a a dark environment then a light environment and then there's like a pre and a post test and in pre-est you'll start looking around and you'll get maybe half of them but then after the um eyetracking calibration It's like spot on. You can like sign your name in cursive with your
51:08 with your gaze. So, I didn't even think about >> I will open it for myself on a on a because we have so many PCs at the office and so many headsets. It's kind of annoying because every time you come back to a PC, somebody has changed everything. Uh, so I'll just try on a headset and then do the calibration test. If if I'm hitting all those points, I won't do the calibration. I'll just exit out. >> Not I will do the calibration. >> Yep. You're the boss. You could tell people to not touch you. Like this one's mine, but don't touch it. Like you could you could tell whoever you want. So then that's actually a good point and this is like we're kind of jumping around our little talking points, but that's I've been using Pimax for a while and I didn't and I have friends come fly
51:55 my rig all the time and they're like immediately they get up they're like where do I this game? And um you know, most recently I had a buddy come over because he's he's always you know, watched the YouTube videos, he watches the shorts, and he's like, "This game looks awesome." And he's like, "Don't you do something with it?" I was like, "Yeah, I do DCS, dude." And so he'll come over and he sat in my rig, he flew the Spitfire for 5 minutes, got up and he's like, "Hey, can you make a list of everything you have here and just email it to me?" And he just top to bottom repurchased everything including Pimax. top to bottom and just a shopping list 100%. With that, a lot of people once they experience VR, they can't go back, you know, so they go to Scud's house, go to my house, you know, they go into, you
52:41 know, Fifi's little tent fort. um when when those new users set up Pimax and this is for everybody who's listening because I think right now VR has changed dramatically over the last 16 18 months because it used to be you know you had to split hairs to kind of divide like headsets but now there's there's a a much larger gap um and when somebody dives into Pimax it's a whole new level to setting up your SIM rig. What advice would you have for people who are setting up Pimax for the first time for DCS? >> Uh I think there's a lot of optim optim so maybe on the topic of of VR like yes
53:26 I think you have to experience it for yourself to really understand. It's very hard to show on a on a in a YouTube video or on a on a web page what it's like. That's also why we do a lot of uh road shows. Um, we try to do some offline stores, but it's just very expensive to to operate the store where it is because you need to be there to to help people set it up or to to get people into the headset >> and then the footfall of the store is maybe not big enough like to have a permanent demo somewhere. >> Uh, what advice? I think there's a lot of good guides on how to optimize TCS depending on your TPU. Uh we have several of those articles on our website. There's also many YouTube
54:12 videos. I don't like reading articles on those settings. I I just prefer to put on a YouTube video and then and then listen and then see all those settings and and dial it in that way. Uh it's definitely something you need to consider your whole system depending on on the TPU. And I would always, especially at the start, prioritize FPS over graphics. just get FPS to to the highest so that for sure you're you're comfortable. And then some people are motion or they get motion sick. So don't do any crazy stunts at the start like if if you do like loopings and you're you're stunt there is a very real acclamation period. Yeah. >> Yes. But then
54:57 >> and I mean when it when it comes to optimization too, our audience are DCS players. So everyone that plays DCS knows that it that you're going to spend hours trying to optimize the game. So optimizing the headsets just another step in that. >> Yeah. So yeah, definitely VR needs a little bit more optimization than just uh just to monitor. Um uh and I would also say if there's any issue, just reach out to our customer support. uh we have more compared to a year ago. We have we have some PCs now that also customer support uses like we can recreate all every situation of CPU and TPU and our RAM. Uh we can we can almost recreate users PC at our office and and then see what the issue is.
55:43 >> Wow. >> Or send a log to to our customer support. Um all those I think all those issues we can solve. >> Do you think >> that's impressive that's that's impressive an impressive level of customer support. >> It is it is pretty good >> for you guys to be able to recreate. >> I've used it myself cuz uh you know I was having some issues and they said hey send me your batch files. And I was like I don't even know what those are. And then after I sent those you know files they're like hey don't know if you're aware but you know you're you're not even using a GPU driver right now. you're in your Windows default, you know VGA you know, you need to switch back to Nvidia. I was like, "Oh my god, I'm an idiot." Um, >> he's trying to run VMAX on his on his motherboard's video.
56:29 >> Windows 10 struggling. >> Um, consoles don't have this issue. Like Windows gaming is just so troublesome because you have so many variables of all the parts and drivers and and games and applications and people use plugins. Um yeah and then permissions. Yeah, super difficult. So earlier >> so Microsoft >> saying if you want to come on and talk about these issues >> the email is [email protected]. Um so so I actually I have I have one more question. Um earlier you mentioned that you guys adopted and implemented open XR native into uh PIP play. >> Um one reference that a lot of people
57:16 use for DCS for setup is tally mouse because tally mouse is pretty much >> the the spoken voice on YouTube for how to set up a a Pimax. Um one of the products that he always recommends is quad view com companion. Do you think that there may be some sort of future where you may adopt some of those practices or maybe bring the PI uh sorry not Pimax companion the quad view companion into um PMAX to where you can uh change you know the all the ranges and sliders of your per peripheral versus your focal area. Yeah, last month uh we already released so first we we added uh open XR runtime like native into pimex play and also quad views. We don't need open xr
58:02 toolkit. >> Some people still use like to use open xrart toolkit because they might squeeze a little bit more performance out of it especially with tally mouse companion. >> Mhm. >> I'm not sure if you mean tie mouse companion or telly mouse's guides on YouTube how to set up both. >> Both are great. Yeah. Um so we are we are putting some some features already into PMX play uh where you can do I think it's already live for a month now. So uh you can set the focus resolution and the focus size and then the outside resolution. Um I need to open my pi play right now cuz I so for me like I got it running perfectly fine following tally mouse and I literally will not touch it until
58:48 something breaks. So yeah then maybe don't touch it but um if but I do think those features already there will expand expand the functionality. We'll first focus on on getting it into Pax Play. So you don't necessarily need those third party options. >> Mhm. >> We got to keep Jimmy focused now because he's about to dive into Pinemax while we record. >> I turned my pip play on and all my audio went to my super. So, I heard you guys over on my rig and not in my ears. >> That's why you stay in the moment in the podcast Jimmy. >> Oh, you know I'm >> He's He's He wanders away sometimes. We got to put a What are the backpacks that little kids wear where they have a leash? >> We need one of those for Jimmy.
59:36 >> This is what it's like trying to run a business for them, too. >> Yeah. Just a little monkey backpack where the leash is the monkeykey's tail and we can pull them back into the podcast. Um without without giving out any spoilers unless you want to what's what's the future of Pimax hold for the users. >> So I think few years ago we we really started to see Pimax play as its own product. Uh before before it was just like okay we have these amazing headsets and then we have we need a PC client to run those things. Uh so there was quite a small team but the PX play team has increased a lot in in terms of manpower. So that's going to keep adding features and uh already we released Pix Play 2.0
1:00:23 as beta. Um so that that should become its own uh stable client uh with with just more uh userfriendly features. On terms of headsets, this year is really Dream Air just started shipping. Uh, and then Dream Air SE also starting soon and then we keep having the Crystal series with the light and super. Um, yeah, that that's we keep uh focused on on PCVR. uh when I joined Pimex there was just the the portal and and original crystal with the standalone uh option but uh from that from those two ventures we also really learned that uh PCVR is just really the core power of Pimax
1:01:10 that's that's what we've been doing for 10 11 years now uh so we should really focus on that and and uh um so that that's really the the future of Pinemax So really focusing on getting that crystal layer out and polishing everything that you have right now, getting that peak performance out of the Pimax ecosystem. >> Yeah, because VR is quite interesting in terms of how it's um I don't know diverging or converging. You have those AR classes now. you have uh standalone VR for quite a few years now and then still PCVR which is the oldest form maybe >> uh yeah we'll just we'll just stay on on PCVR but then also see PMX play as as as
1:01:57 its own product as part of the experience um one last question uh really that you know I just checked everything that we have from the community um and then the last the last item that we really had earmarked uh to ask you was uh the payment plan. Um >> yeah, >> where where did that go or you know do you think that will come around or what what happened there? cuz what happened I think for a lot of community was it I I don't know that we knew that you know things changed with it >> and it's you know >> the payment or subscription or how people call it we call it prime right now we offer I should check because it's it's sort of in in in a we now offer
1:02:43 full so maybe uh we we released this as uh yeah to go back to VR is quite a subjective experience. So, you should try it for yourself to see if if you like it. Not just VR itself, but also each headset. Uh some people just don't like aspheric lenses and some people don't like pancake lenses or it just doesn't fit your face shape. Um that's not necessarily the headsets fault. It could be your face doesn't or your PC doesn't work. Anyway, we really want to give people the chance to try out the headsets. That's why Pinemax headsets have this 2 week try out window. And to even lower the barrier for that, we also introduced Pimex Prime. So you pay uh what is it 60 or 70 80% of the headset to get it at at your home and if you
1:03:31 like it, you pay the remaining amount. I think another benefit of this is that um as we saw last year with the changing like the import tax in the US >> that kept changing like 10% and it was 200 300% I I lost track but um that that still helps save some money um like maybe even now4 $40 maybe $50 you can buy another DCS plane for that of money or um so those are two benefits but There was some discussions on Reddit as if there was like some con or mis mis uh yeah misconceptions like you or do I need to still pay this every month after that or uh but but it's like you pay the
1:04:17 remaining amount and then you're you're done. Um right now we uh there was also yeah either you pay the remaining amount or you pay in 24 months but after that it's completely paid off for that headset. Uh right now on the website we offer full payment. So there's zero prime. You just pay everything at once or you can still for some stock you can still choose prime version. >> Okay. Um what about Pimax makes you the most excited? What what >> what is the best part about what you do? What what is what gets you up every morning and makes you excited to go do this? >> Two parts. The technology
1:05:02 uh is quite amazing. All the technology that goes into these headsets. There's like audio, there's camera based tracking, there's the panels, the lenses, the ergonomics. Uh yeah, probably forgetting a lot of things. The the software, the collaboration with the so in terms of hardware, the they're not simple devices. There's so much coming together. And then also I think the the the users um so we're always online and and then um that's basically what we uh there's something about VR and maybe especially DCS but something about VR that makes people so engaged uh in discussions and uh if we put a video live on our YouTube
1:05:48 it's yeah thousands of people watch that video so that interest is is such a uh I'd say honor or um privilege to to uh yeah to uh communicate about these headsets and and and these users. >> How many people watched the the live event last April for the for the crystal and the uh or sorry for the light and the super? >> I think there was 60,000 70,000. It's insane. Like my hometown is >> Wow. >> My hometown is 10,000 people. So 10,000 people for me is the barrier. Anything above 10,000 is like well that's a lot of people more than my >> um yeah it's still uh quite unreal.
1:06:34 >> I I remember that day cuz >> yeah that's awesome. >> We all watched it and by the end of the video we're like how do I order this? What's the fastest way to get you know my reservation? But uh maybe that's a question for you guys like uh because we have a lot of users from all kinds of games, simulators and and applications, but DCS by far is the most active or hardcore or like engaged. What is it about TCS that uh sort of releases this in people? >> It's a it's a it's a high level. We've talked about this before. It's a It's not just Yes, it's a video game, but there's so much more to the video game because in iRacing, you don't go up at the pit,
1:07:23 you know, to, you know, pre-program your radios or pre-program your weapons or pre-program your navigation, you know, in DCS. DCS catches you because it is such an immersive thing and it's not just like a cold video game. It's it's something that you have to live with. And if you're, you know, flying long sordies, you're you're flying that for three, four hours, you know, and it is something that it's not just you. It's like an extension of you. And it's it's all tangible because every switch goes, every button goes, every system, you know, you can dive into. And it's it is a ever escalating game to where the more you learn like the more you can do the Fifi says it the best you know like we buy these amazing
1:08:09 modules where it's fully modeled all the way down to like even the air conditioning you turn you can turn it on or off and when you first start you're only using like 10% of that you know investment into that module but as you go deeper and deeper and deeper you start spending you know using more of that $80 that you use to purchase the module. So >> yeah, >> that's my agree. That's my answer. >> I think the same the more you get proficient in a module in DCS, the more you the more you unlock that you can do, the more you want to do it, which drives you to learn more. And then that also tends to lead down the path of spending money. Like >> the more the more I learn this airplane, the more I realize I need more switches >> and more fidelity. And so yeah, like I I've described it in the past that there's DCS is a black hole and you can
1:08:56 be outside the event horizon on the fringes and you can play the game a little, but the moment you cross that horizon, it's going to take all your time and all your money and and like light itself, none of that will ever be seen again. It's just >> I think >> you just got to you just got to be careful how close you get to that edge before you fall in. >> Yeah. I I think I we we flew a mission, the three of us, um probably about 2 years ago where we launched from a carrier and it was in the Persian Gulf. We flew probably an hour um up to where we're about parallel with Damascus. We hit a tanker and then from the tanker we flew another half hour where we linked up with B1's, B2s, F-14s and it was a massive air strike. There was probably a hundred assets in the air at one time and we within 16
1:09:42 seconds mowed down every surfacetoair threat and then all the bombers came through, cleared out these airfields, cleared out these strategic objectives, and then we had to turn around and we flew the half hour back. We retanked and then we flew the hour back to the boat. And by the time we were done, it was 3 hours. We
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