EFFECTS OF DISINFORMATION ON WORLD ORDER

0:03 [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] Greetings to you good people of Africa and of the people in the world at large. Thank you for joining us once again.

0:50 It's the second edition of your informative another sharing program global insight proposed to you by globus and the panafrican media television. Today we want to discuss uh the effects of this information in shaping global world order in our interconnected world. disinformation is and continue to play a critical role in shaping perceptions in politics, economics, culture, religion among other aspects impacting the global order. This episode of global insight however examines this information, its elements and its influence on globalization, international relations and public perception of key issues and

1:36 its ramification in shaping world order. Though disinformation started in the 50s according to report it has taken another dimension in this uh digital era. A recent prime example is uh Donald Trump's US president use of an unfounded video claiming a white Africa genocide in South Africa which to an extent highlighted the use of rhetorics by global leaders in their political discourse to turn false words into perceived truths. Historical instances of disform disinformation such as those during the Holocaust, the Rondon genocide and the Arab Spring among others illustrate still the dangers the

2:23 dangerous consequences of such narratives. So in today's landscape with heightened information warfare where citizens are increasingly aware of information dissemination complexities this information threatens national sovereignty and however and also ideologies especially amid renewed imperial interest across the globe. This calls for a greater awareness of how this information undermines the established of a euroentric world order. Disinformation also campaigns uh probably disinformation campaigns have been successful in recent times. Disinformation campaign work well due to cracks or lapses in our society. How

3:09 then can governments, civil society, other stakeholders actually prove reality from this information? And just to note that the rise of bodies like the BRICS nations and of course the championing of multi-polarity actually uh uh brings in a new dogma that will indicate a shift towards a more responsible responsible global society that is prompting us to investigate these ideologies that contributes to the prevalence of disinformation today. So with a panel of expert we're going to uh have an indepth analysis in-depth analysis understanding

3:54 what disinformation is trying of course uh to differentiate it from misinformation and other ideologies or terminologies which we find very prevalent in today's complex society where uh international uh shifts in international relations have shown how major powers are trying probably uh to redefine their scopes and of course what uh real definition can we give to this uh concept of disinformation and how can we mitigate the uh negative effect of it on society and of course the global world order. Thank you so much. I will go straight away to uh getting to unveil our panel and I think uh we're going to

4:41 go to Russia. Let's meet with Julia Burke. She's a political scientist also founder global expert club and we're welcoming you to this edition of global insight of course starting with the first uh question answering uh what this information is all about and some of the the contextual framework of the terminology and how it affects our world of today. Uh hello. Well, first of all, I'm happy to join this program today and uh happy to see the amazing panel of experts. So I I'm sure it will be a very interesting and fruitful discussion. Uh especially given the fact that the topic of today disinformation uh is uh uh very much uh

5:28 up to date. Uh we're living now not even in the era of posttruth as it uh used to be called but uh we live in the world of let's say shades of gray when uh on the one hand we have millions of pieces of content being produced uh every day and at the same time the core of that content and uh the uh let's say the essence of it is not always clear in terms of the sources in terms terms of uh the key uh points mentioned there and so on. So on the one hand we have uh the high-tech and all the technology that allows for immediate production of uh content both in the shape of text um and

6:15 in the shape of uh visual materials. And at the same time we see how uh this this kind of content is uh uh sometimes consciously sometimes uh unconsciously being used in order to promote certain narratives or certain ideas to plant them into the audience's brain basically and uh this is becoming very tricky not to say dangerous because the deep fake content on the one hand the content that is not even that is not even false but is just something being said is already impacting a lot the uh the stock markets, the exchange rates, the uh situation uh let's say the the uh the

7:02 financial rates and uh the behavior of the people because sometimes this this kind of content is targeted at triggering emotions, triggering certain behavior patterns, certain decisions being made. So for instance, we see some aggression coming in or content uh uh basically promoting the idea of aggression. So that is aimed at creating fear that is aimed at uh creating defensive behavior patterns and aggressive behavior patterns in return. So we could observe this kind of um methodology being applied to peoples and nations globally in order to control them in order to control their minds their their behavior their consumer

7:49 behavior their political behavior social behavior and so on. And uh if you want to talk about recent examples of how deep this can go, not to mention simple uh simple aggression being fueled between I don't know Ukraine and Russia, between India and Pakistan and uh Israel and all of its neighbors. But if you want to uh to have a deeper example, that probably would be the entire transgender uh policy that uh in just a couple of decades has affected people that much that they went into having their children undergo surgeries that are irreversible. So this is how deep uh

8:34 this type of uh propaganda can affect uh our decision making process and our ability to make uh short and long-term decisions. That's why it's essential to uh to discuss this topic today. I believe because uh in in the ocean of information that is uh not you know nothing like black and white but all of it is shades of gray uh gray it is essential to be able to navigate through it and to have a strong moral compass and a strong set uh a strong set of let's say beliefs and uh to have a certain kind of a vector that uh would be uh showing the uh the the path

9:19 because otherwise it's easy to drown or it's easy to to lose the uh the direction. Um the importance of this topic uh uh cannot be underrated. Indeed indeed and it is a call for us all in the world to remain vigilant and critically engaged uh as the narratives we consumer can greatly influence uh everything around us. Thank you so much uh Julia for that uh analysis and of course let's uh make our next stop to the United States of America by welcoming uh Mr. Shield aka is an international uh financial expert and we want to appreciate you like we u

10:05 mentioned this information doesn't only spread along lines of politics or culture but we also have uh this information around the sphere of economics. So with with you giving us a clear definition of what this this information is we want to hear from you Mr. uh what some of the factors that have made uh uh disinformation more prevalent in our society of today especially as uh international cooperational relations is concerned. Thank you. Thank you very much Claris for the invitation. I think uh it's been a long time since we haven't had a you know conversation like this uh you know on your show. I'm glad that we are back

10:52 together uh especially on this channel Panaffrican media. Listen uh the question on the economic front about this topic is critical uh because disinformation today is um recognized as a top global risk you know with uh uh with profound and multifaceted uh impacts you know on on the world economy. Um, for example, the the the World Economic Forum, uh, you know, the 2025 version, uh, focused on global risk and, uh, and and and and ranks, uh, misinformation and disinformation as the number one risk right now, you know, over the next two years ahead of, uh, you know, stuff, you know, things like

11:37 weather, extreme weather, geopolitical conflict and and so and so on. So now when we talk about this information, let's look at the different aspect how it affects different aspect of the global economy. Um if we look at the u the the the market volatility uh you know recently uh there there's been a lot of losses you know and that is those losses have been triggered by disinformation uh you know with which which which create irrational market uh you know activities movements and also we have false you know false fake news false news uh you know whether it's it's information whether it's you know false news coming from companies

12:23 um or or or or bad companies, you know, uh or about the economic indicators that people put forth, you know, misleading investors or even on geopolitical events, you know, that we've we've we've been watching recently, the war in Ukraine and things like that. Those type of uh events can abruptly uh uh uh you know uh create a situation on the market that could uh you know result you in a in a in a sell off or or or or or rally you know uh based on uh whether the information is positive uh for the market or negative for the market. Uh so that caused a lot of volatility right. So uh when we talk about also on the

13:08 reputation uh uh front for for for for companies or for corporations in general uh companies targeted by this information spend uh on average about $10 billion each year on reputation management. You know that is significant um you know because uh what the company has is his brand. when that brand is turned is punished and by misinformation or disinformation. You know, we have to understand that disinformation is information that's put out there for the purpose of doing bad, you know, to the the person that it's being targeted to. Whereas misinformation is an information that's put out there without any intent to harm

13:53 the person or the party. Uh but the the effect is the same. It's all negative. So exactly. So uh so when it comes to corporations you know disinformation could have a very uh very expensive effect on them. Uh when it when we look at the foreign direct investments you know in general um we also notice that fake news uh you know usually that we call fake news uh they they can influence uh investor sentiment right. So um you know from what research have shown uh you know it's fundamental uh that uh you know in in this world in this economic and digital world today uh that institutions uh and and

14:39 corporations institutions and and the like you know remain strong you know because when that doesn't happen uh you know disinformation could really uh undermine confidence and uh and and and complicate investments uh decision when it comes to foreign direct investments. Um so another aspect is the market credibility also you know there is a there's an erosion of the market credibility because people don't trust the market anymore. people are not sure exactly if the market is behaving in an appropriate way or is being led uh you know by information that is uh you know trustworthy or not and that is very damaging for investors because uh they have a sensation they have a feeling

15:25 that the market is being manipulated you know and and we've seen recently Trump being part of that disinformation too he recently when he said uh you know to people uh that well the market is down So, uh, be ready to invest, be ready to buy, something like that. I'm not quoting exactly what he said, but he went on on his social truce media and then posted that, uh, you know, market is down. It's good time to buy. And then the next day, you know, he he waved the, uh, the t situation that he put out there on the on the world and the market went up to 1,000 point. Okay. 1,000 points. So that's that's also part of disinformation that is that is really not appropriate from the you know for for president to do that market like that. So there are different areas like

16:10 that on the economy that we can touch and then you can see that disinformation has a really has a real impact especially financially for companies for uh institutions for the market and that could really undermine uh the the trust that people put on the market today. I don't know if we should be asking the question if probably uh this information should be made a normal norm in society today given all the dynamics or or probably as far as uh you know the uh the world of politics economic culture even religion is concerned and still in the same perspective you just mentioned the United States and that's why we are going to stay with you Steve Gil and

16:56 this time around uh you know you're a political commentator and we're looking at this recent uh out meeting between your president of the president of the United States of America Donald Trump with his South African counterpart Sir Ramaposa that actually brought again uh ush to probably uh think of how political discourses and other narratives are being uh tailored intentionally to probably change public uh perception about a particular country nation which actually affect its diplomacy. And now uh aside being a political commentator, you're also a media uh personality. We want to uh look

17:42 at the effect of such a a move on the uh the trust that the global world has when it comes to news that comes from the United States of America. And how do you think the media uh can navigate this very controversial moment of information warfare? Hi Steve, you are muted please. Hello Steve. Is everything okay?

18:29 Now I think we're going to continue with Pekka uh Farle to uh get his own perception given that South Africa was at the four and while we were talking in the preamble we quite mentioned a whole uh some sort of examples citing the Holocaust and of course we also cited the run and genocide and this information was at the center of what happened in Rwanda and the Arab Spring. Uh so in uh giving uh uh a topic for this day uh pasa far in what ways do you think uh you know political, economic and social factors can create an environment that is conducive to uh probably fight this disinformation which

19:17 has existed uh since the 50s and is becoming a gaining grounds today in uh this uh very complex world of today. Uh thank you very much. Thank you very much Clarice. Um I think one of the biggest problems that we have is that uh disinformation has real life impacts. So it does not necessarily just stop uh with it being something that is seen to just move around maybe the economy uh maybe move around the markets and etc. But it has real life impacts. It does impact people's life. And I do love the fact that you touched on something that was important, the Rwanda um genocide. One of the primary things that was used before the genocide started was that the

20:02 media was used a lot. So there were radio stations which are used to push narratives to vilify people to uh dehumanize people so that you could be able to lay the grounds for you to be able to to to to to kill these people in mass. So it is very important for us to be able to to to to combat these um these uh disinformation sessions that we've continuously have found ourselves having to engage with especially recently uh myself as a South African who lives in South Africa. uh seeing what is being portrayed of South Africa to the rest of the world specifically by the president of the United States, I found it very necessary for us to step out and to speak to these things and to speak to them with facts, you know,

20:47 because if we use the the case of of of Rwanda, we see what was the eventual impact and uh I don't want to use the words but that was on a smaller scale that was not even on a global scale scale where you are having uh problems between nations because the reason why it's difficult to say it was on a smaller scale because people lost their lives in mass. Um so the same thing that happened with the United the United States first coup in um in Guatemala where what they did were they used a lot of this information where they were trying to target the population the general population that is about the instability that was happening in the country and it it it is very difficult for you to be able to to to to listen to the radio. You are presented with certain narratives. Certain stories are being driven. You are told that soldiers

21:34 are taking a a specific spot. You start asking yourself, "Am I safe?" You become uncomfortable with your environment. Even though all of that is not happening, one of the key things that the United States used specifically in that context was the media, specifically the radio, where they were funding and using lots of money to fund these uh these disinformation campaigns, which at the time were not called specifically that. But what they did was that they manipulated the minds of the people for them to believe even though their eyes are telling them not to believe. So it is very important for us to be very careful when we're dealing with these matters and to be very vocal and speak to disinformation and misinformation itself because as my panel has spoken that disinformation and misinformation are not the same thing. Misinformation

22:21 for me is specifically a person like Trump because for me I see Trump as someone who pushes misinformation because he believes it even though I do not believe that he knows that he is lying when he is pushing that information. That's why he is able to say these things so passionately and so openly because he genuinely believes that there is not an alternative reality which is based objectively off of fact. So that is why he does that. But this information for me is looking at someone like Elon Musk who proudly steps out there and he knows that he is misinforming the population and he knows that he has a platform specifically Twitter X where he's able to push these ideas of these for his own self um

23:06 benefit because he knows if he can push these narratives he's able to manipulate what happens in different parts of the world and because Twitter is such a black big platform. All right. Um yeah, let me just finish that sentence. Because it is such a big platform, what happens is that you are able to manipulate so many people in such a small space of time with such little information. So for me, I'm saying that look at the two disinformation and misinformation. Misinformation, see Trump, disinformation, see Elon Musk. I think that makes it simple. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. We're going back uh to uh Steve if everything uh is okay. Steve, you're welcome. Let's now answer. Do you think what happened recently uh with your President Donald Trump was it misinformation or

23:54 disinformation at at this uh uh you know juncture given what uh pekka just highlighted now you're still muted Steve we're not we're not hearing you Steve. Mhm. Steve, please can you check your mic? Uh you're still muted. I think uh we we will leave you again and come back probably about in in in a few minutes while we continue to analyze uh the the topic uh uh for discussion. We're coming back to you Lear. I quite remember in uh uh during the

24:40 2024 presidential elections uh in Russia which actually I was present alongside other journalists and even observers uh before the proclamation of the election results uh uh we saw news already from uh uh the Washington Post and other uh mainstream supposed mainstream media uh writing uh instances of probably disinformation information as I can put it because they cited that people who voted in the new regions were voted or probably voted under uh some sort of jury gun shirt given that the state dimension was the state where I and my colleagues were present. Now it shows

25:26 that it is a very difficult uh one for the media to navigate in the process of news giving. How can we now uh in this digital era uh Ulier uh help the media to probably understand these complexities in the information warfare and what parameters do you think uh this sphere can use to be able uh not to mislead the world in the uh process of nose giving? Uh well um even in more simple cases you would always have a great uh space for interpretations and you would always have uh quite a vast variety of versions

26:15 uh emanating from an event that let's say a few people attended. So if you ask five different people that attended the very same event you will hear very different impressions. So uh when it comes to the definition itself of the truth and uh of uh you know false what you can clearly be talking about is facts. Otherwise uh it's all about interpretations. Yet at the same time, this is exactly what one of the key objectives of uh spreading information uh is especially in cases when you need to manipulate through uh you know the audience uh it's triggering emotions. So the emotional ingredient that

27:07 is un unfortunately uh uh we lost you and uh just to remind you ladies and gentlemen that you're on to your interactive program global insight and knowledge sharing as well on your pan-African uh television and today we are looking into greater details the effect of this information in the uh world order or in the contemporary uh uh society. And of course we are defining what this information is and what actually uh can the world stakeholders government civil society other organizations can do to curtail the negative effect of such a uh you know uh

27:52 I call it a rhetorical philosophical uh you know ideology that has overwhelmed the world especially in the geopolitical uh context and We come back to you Shilki. Now let's look at why probably this information has been used today as a tool for geopolitical uh manipulation. What do you think is that during that period of time is you know all those attempts to trigger emotions through through showing certain kinds of images and all that and it is really difficult to navigate through and uh the only recipe I would assume here is to look at the facts and to uh to analyze the emotions that a certain uh you know piece of uh content

28:39 triggers and then to see you know uh Kibana or you know who could benefiting from different kinds of um interpretations. But the issue of the truth itself is, you know, is is always very difficult to discuss because you you ask two people attending an event. One would say it was boring and it was nothing useful. Another person would say that it was life-changing. Right? So I mean it's uh it's difficult but uh facts are the only hard things to to look at in this kind of cases. for and we were asking this question still to understand uh further with you Steve if you're back what what explains the fact that

29:25 governments uh uh today using you know this information as a tool for geopolitical manipulation we want to uh take the the critical example of what happened lately in the United States of America with the the the the perpetrate video that President Donald Trump presented as uh evidence of African genocide. I want to take us back to probably 1933 with the uh uh the the Nazi uh uh sentiment there in Germany and we discover that in still in today we still see this information as that tool of uh use for geopolitical manipulation. So how can we uh uh probably understand this phenomenon and what's the way forward towards Kotelli?

30:12 Well, hopefully the audio is connected at this point. I disconnected and reconnected, so that hopefully works. Uh, let me touch first on what what Julia just just pointed out. Uh, you and I and others were actually observing elections in in Eastern Ukraine when when the reporting in in Eastern Europe and the US was that people were being forced to vote at gunpoint. Uh, there were literally hundreds of election observers around the country, including us. what the West was being told were absolute lies and and you can disagree on on uh opinions, but the fact was we were there. I didn't see CNN or the New York Times or the Washington Post. And yet when Crimea voted a decade earlier, all the major outlets were there. So

30:58 part of what the media does to intentionally misinform people is what they choose to cover and not cover. in addition to them in many cases just li lying about the circumstances uh that that occur uh based on what they're told rather than having reporters or or folks that are actually there seeing uh and and showing what the actual uh you location looks like. U I I don't agree frankly with uh some of my panelist friends that that what President Trump did in the Oval Office with the uh president of South Africa was misinformation or disinformation. You have video again, we can trust our eyes, not what we're told, of of South African leaders calling for kill the boores,

31:44 kill the whites. And it has been happening. So I I'm not sure how it's disinformation when you're actually showing what is happening, when you're having large rallies where you have leaders exhorting uh genocide to deny that it's happening when again we can see it with our own eyes. And that's what President Trump showed. And I don't think how that can be declared as misinformation or disinformation and in probably uh the uh uh global aspect of it. Steve still with you. Uh we know that today uh the the US hijgemony is gradually losing and uh some pundit of the viewpoint that uh uh

32:29 the way uh the Donald Trump is going with his policies and probably uh with his connection with likes like Ellen Musk and all the narratives that we see or hear coming from the USA. It's actually uh creating a bladder scope for the end to this uh US uh hedgeimonyy. And now another pundit pointed out that in the past when news came from the white house or from anywhere across the United States, it was considered a universal truth. But with instances of this information which have actually occupied the media landscape in the US given a glaring examples which we just

33:15 highlighted now what do we have to say about probably uh US hegeimony in today's uh uh world and how probably uh the disinformation spree is gradually coming uh to an end with the uh the new ideologies coming from order uh global powers entering probably uh the geopolitical landscape. Well, we could we could have many examples of how the US media uh is is uh misinforming and disinforming uh uh and losing their credibility in the in the process. Uh it is not limited to US media. I mean, we saw early in the Ukrainian Russia conflict where we were being told that the ghost of Kiev, a

34:01 fighter pilot had shot down 10 Russian fighter jets. It was a complete lie. It was completely made up and yet it was repeated by Western media uh to to act like the Ukrainians were this unstoppable military force. Uh so again, propaganda has become an instant part of of war in real time. Uh and then again I think some other great examples during the the COVID crisis you had the media on one side constantly claiming you have to get the vaccine which had not been tested uh and was now as we learn more uh more deadly than people were being told and yet all of the media outlets were were proclaiming you have to get this vaccine and and there was only one side of the story told. If somebody

34:47 objected or said, "Well, wait, there's more to say." On the other side, that was completely silenced. Doctors were at risk of losing their medical licenses if they prescribed drugs like Ivormectin that are widely used throughout the world. But because the pharmaceutical companies were buying big ads, Mona and Fizer on those media outlets, they were telling one side of the story. We're seeing again the same thing with the Ukraine Russia conflict. You you'll see reports in Gaza uh from US media and Western media, but you don't see any US or Western media on the Russian side of the conflict. Uh so you get one side told by Ukraine. And why is that? Because the military complex and the US

35:32 profits by selling more bombs and missiles and bullets. So we only get one side of the story. So, I would say a a test globally is if you're only hearing one side of a story from any media in your country or anywhere else, it's probably not balanced and it's probably not true. Okay, thank you so much. And uh let's go back to uh Julia as actually Sorry, Clarice. Sorry, Clarice. Okay, you want to before you continue, I need to respond because I do not think that it would be fair to respond too. Yeah, go ahead. Can I please take it and then you afterwards? Yes, just go ahead. Thank you. Thank you. I cannot let you go on and continue to perpetuate the same

36:18 misinformation that parties like Afrey Forum who act as if they are protecting their own freedoms but they want to protect their own privileges continue to perpetuate and right-wing media. And I will not allow you to try and push this thing in this particular platform because that is very problematic. I'm sorry that um factually speaking, statistically speaking, black people, poor people in this country are victims of crime more than the people that you are saying are dying because you're saying it is happening when we can clearly stipulate and we can factually tell you that that very video that you saw of Julius Malma who was singing Kill the Bua shoot the farmer. There is historical context that you need to understand before you come into a platform and try to say that that this person is leading that man leads a party

37:05 that is 9%. He lost so many votes and we know that he is in the fringe and statistically factually objectively so there is zero evidence to show that that song has led to death. The only stat that we have that has been shown in record was in the TRC in 1992 in South Africa where one person one person had come to a platform and said on the TRC platform and said I was motivated by this song. right now in the very farms that you just referred to. Black people who are the workers, black people who own farms because they are uh disadvantaged economically and financially are the ones who are dying. Even those who are farmers themselves, not just workers. So it is imperative

37:50 that we make sure that we do not come on this platform and perpetuate the same lies that we saw on on on in the oval office. And another thing is that we need to be sure that we do not mis misconstrue what we know as fact because Trump went on that oval office and he presented evidence that comes all the way from the Congo that was speaking about the violence that is currently happening in South Africa in in Africa. That was not that had nothing to do with South Africa because what that did was that it was manipulating people to thinking that there is this mass massacre that is happening in South Africa but has nothing to do with South Africa. So I need you to make sure that before you made a statement about this country, you are factual and you do not just believe anything that your

38:35 president says cuz he has consistently come on platforms and he has misrepresented himself. And that is why I argue that I believe that he believes what he's saying is true. But what he's saying is is true to him, but it is not factual and cannot be proven so. So it is imperative that we clarify that before we move forward. We can take that. Thank you so much. Let me respond. Yeah. If if only 9% of South Africans advocate genocide, that will be a lot of deaths. And and frankly, are you denying, my friend, that white farms are being taken and that white people are being killed in South Africa? Are you factually denying that that is even happening? I am. Give me one example.

39:21 One example of a farm that was taken from someone in South Africa. There is not a single land that was expropriated by the government of South Africa. I say and this is something that is important that you need to understand and I do believe that it was also pointed out in the United States that South Africa has a problem of crime. I have white colleagues who I work with. We were speaking about this specific such matter today and we all are in agreement. Even yesterday on Piers Morgan's show, even the people who've been perpetuating this narrative came out and say Ian Ruth who has proudly been saying this when he was challenged with facts that were valid that were validated. He he himself said there is no white genocide in South Africa. The problem that we have is that people are attacked in farms the same way that black people are attacked in the townships of this country and worse

40:07 in the very farms that they they employed at. And I need you to understand something that is very important before I move on. And I'm sorry that it I just need to to to to specify there's a video of crosses that was taken where Trump was saying these are these are graves and if you read the facts the the child of the person who that uh memorial was for specifically said the problem that is happening is that that is a memorial for all the people who died in farms including black people Because the case of farm matters is a specific case of crimes of taking advantage because of isolation. And the black people who are

40:53 killed in those farms, they are not accounted for by their race. And now it's as if when those statistics come, it is specifically white people who've been targeted. And these black people become humanless. They do they do not exist as humans. So I will repeat, I can ask you now to provide a factual of South African government taking farms from people and South African government telling people to go kill people. Julius Malimma stance on kill the Bua is something that I myself have been calling out for a long time but I can tell you there is zero evidence that that man has led to anyone being killed in a farm. Our problem is crime and our problem is not against our fellow white South Africans. Okay. So I think

41:39 there thank you. I I think uh uh this is an assignment for the entire team of globals and global insight alongside the panaffrica media uh to actually be on ground again after this new perspective to assertain the reality so as to educate our uh audience out there like we noted it is a knowledge sharing and uh we uh aim to constructively analyze ideologies that will bring a clear trajectory tory to globalization and how countries relate among each others each other. Uh now uh Mr. Aki probably uh you wanted to to comment to what Steve said but then I will bring us back uh uh to

42:26 this question that has actually led us to probably the uh the differences in uh the point opinions view had by Steve and Peka. Let's try to analyze this aspect. We are in a world where we have new alignment, new uh alliances or even shifting alliances and uh a a world where we are moving from um uh uh from a uniolar to a multipolar society and where propaganda has taken central stage distorting even a diplomacy in its uh on in its real self for some sort of you know uh an agenda or a conspiracy agenda to be attained. So now how can you use

43:12 this uh aspect of new alignment shifting uh probably alliances and other uh aspect that come into play as far as collaboration among uh countries are concerned to understand the present state of affairs regarding the situation in South Africa and uh the recent particular pening the white African and the recent uh probably uh uh evidence we saw in the Oval Office presented by President Donald Trump. Let's try to understand the diplomacy of of this all and probably uh get to a compromising situation for better clarification.

44:00 All right, thank you u Laris. I I am in shock. Um you know what Steve just did is typical propaganda and we talk about propaganda. Propaganda is a systematic and deliberate dissemination of information, ideas or rumors that are often biased or misleading in nature with the purpose of influencing public opinion, shaping attitudes and guiding behavior towards a specific agenda. Now, I don't know what's Steve's agenda

44:45 today, but if you are invited on a Panaffrican channel like this one and you state facts, you you you make a statement as what you just did without any proof. And I'm glad uh our colleague here, our panelist in South Africa was able to give us you know the proper perspective because we are all in different locations. We are not necessarily aware of the real situation down there. But for someone to use this opportunity on this channel that reaches Africans across the world and to state or to imply that genocide has been

45:33 happening for white people in South Africa, I am just shocked. And so I don't want to say too much about it because I can go off very easily on him right now. But I'm going to keep my composure and you know hope that it was just a misunderstanding uh and not it's for him to clarify that because um you know we don't know not accessible still today you know from the majority the super majority of population which is black. This is is inacceptable. So the people of MMA are on the far left side that believe that everything should be stripped away from white people because they got those

46:20 lands without buying without paying for those. So they took them freely because of the power of the weapon that they had to colonize you know those those people dominate those people and subjugate those people. So you know where do we stand today? Where is the middle ground that we need to to to adopt? You know, people who stole your your your your land and use that to make money, to dominate, to subjugate the owners, the rightful owners, what are they supposed to do today? If Steve was in charge of South Africa, how would he solve that land problem given the the facts that we have today? Given the situation, I want to hear from him about his solution about that. It's easy to sit here and uh

47:05 and say things to dis to disinform to misinform. I don't know if he's he's doing it on purpose or not, but he has the opportunity to clarify that and please give him the chance to explain himself on this because this is unacceptable on this channel. AB absolutely absolutely Mr. uh Mr. Eki we are going to come back uh subsequently to Steve to get some probably clarification as to why uh he made the asision just to note the purpose of the uh the program is to ensure that we have a common ground especially on global ideologies and see how we can foster positively uh international relations and cooperation among nations of the world. And uh with

47:52 all that has been said, we we we want to make a stop with you Julia. Uh what do you think at this particular juncture uh still on this very particular point because I would love us to clarify it for for better to better situate our audience out there. the place of uh uh the new dynamics in the world of diplomacy, geopolitics and nonalignment probably in the place of propaganda and conspiracy agenda in celling this uh uh disinformation agendas. Uh let's come back to Steve actually to comment on this. Well, first of all, if if you have black

48:39 machete armed thugs killing a black farmer and taking his land or killing a white farmer and taking his land, I find either case reprehensible. I don't think what you see in South Africa are large efforts of the government taking land. I do think that there are many that are following the uh advocacy of Malima to kill the boores, take the land, shoot the boores. And even the Supreme Court in South Africa has acknowledged that while those words and that language sound insightful, that it's it's not intentional to encourage anybody to do it. And yet words matter. Uh and in the US that would be considered hate speech. And I think when you're calling on people to be killed because of their

49:24 race, whether it would be happening in the US uh in the 50s, saying kill black people or whether it's happening in South Africa where a a major political party leader and I'll I'll acknowledge that maybe he only represents 9% with his political party, but that's a pretty hefty number. And I don't think you can enjoy you can ignore the impact of words encouraging people to do this when again there are not uh good records of how many are being killed how much land is being taken forcefully not necessarily by the government but by the folks that are killing people and taking their land white and black in South Africa. You have any example to back up your statement about land being taken? You

50:09 have any you have any case? Yeah, I mean I did not bring it with me today, but I will be happy to send you that gle and I would hope that the government of South Africa will do that. You know, you and I'm not comparing the the the deaths and and and taking of property in South Africa to the Nazis, but the Germans weren't issuing press releases when they killed 6 million Jews. Governments don't acknowledge what they do until it's discovered long after. Uh Steve, Mr. AK, please, I'll come back to you, please. Uh Steve, I I'm still with you. uh when I want us to go back to what happened in the the other office uh when uh uh President Donald Trump presented the evidence uh that probably to his counterpart Syria and uh probably we we got of

50:58 course the response from President Ramaposa noting that there is no such case in his country as he is very much aware of the uh uh the development threatening especially the uh the the the len uh uh expropriation bill and of course he pointed out that the slogan coming from uh uh the leader of the economic freedom fighters uh Julius Malima is just something like which he saw it as a political distraction and still categorically noting that there are no cases of white African uh genocide in the country and it is also at a critical moment because we have a coalition involvement in South Africa between uh the African National Congress

51:45 and the Democratic Alliance which is actually headed by the the white and we're talking about uh uh the uh the minister of agriculture and he said if actually there was such uh a phenomenon of genocide against white in the country I wouldn't have been here with these ministers who represent the the white minority in this uh probably in South Africa. And now with this assession from you, do you have uh more evidence or uh that could bring us into uh the understanding of a clear uh probably uh practice of such in South Africa. The goal is not probably uh to defend one side or the other in a uh in a global

52:32 east side. The goal actually is for us to consult, understand ideologies and see where we can have a common ground that will provide a better uh atmosphere for diplomat diplomatic relations among countries of the world. Well, Achilles asked a great question. What would I do if I was handling the the land distribution in South Africa? Not a job I want. Uh but I would encourage that the president of South Africa should be the one producing the proof and and having an international investigation. So it's not just the political leadership in South Africa saying no no no it's not happening. The same president that denied knowing anything about this protest song uh when he has been pictured with Mima before. He knows

53:18 the guy. He knows these songs are being sung at these large rallies and he denied that. So, if I was him, I would be putting together a a dependable uh international team to come in and and do an investigation and let's put the proof out. And I don't think it's genocide on the level that it's happening at at the massive numbers that again you saw in in Nazi Germany with Jews. But if it is a problem of land being taken again, whether it's from black farmers or from white farmers by those who are practicing the fact that I'm bigger, I'm better, and I've got a crowd with me, that is wrong, and it should be uh exposed and and dealt with. Uh and the other thing that I would point out is that the president brought a couple of white golfers to that meeting in the

54:06 Oval Office supposedly to testify that it wasn't happening. And yet when asked they acknowledged that their father was a golfer was a farmer and that their friends who were farmers were experiencing this. So are we going to believe what the government says when we know we should be skeptical or the very people that the president brought to the Oval Office with him who were white who had farmers who were related to them acknowledging that it was happening. uh pas now you you just listen to what Steve said patterning this uh glaring example and the most recent that we have now with all of these analysis can we categorically say that what happened there in the oval office in front of the

54:53 public was an intentional actor because uh we were looking at the probably Trump going to hold his media uh probably uh uh offices or public relations officers into account for providing such evidence that was unfounded uh pertinent the situation in South Africa. And when we listen uh to the uh uh the analysis of Steve uh one will be tempted to ask this question if it was an intentional act with those evidences we saw at the uh of our office and what was the aim or probably what is hidden behind such questions about the account. Um, as I said with my first comment that I don't

55:40 think it was I think it was uh I don't think it was uh intentional. I don't think it was disinformation. I think Trump genuinely believes that white people are being targeted in South Africa. And for someone who does not listen, no matter what fact you provide, it is common for them to to want to believe what they already believe in. So I think that he he he he genuinely believed that everything that he provided uh meant that it is factual. Uh it is uh somewhat disappointing um that uh we are on this platform and we have to teach uh people that we I respect you Steve. Um we did

56:28 meet um uh a while back. Uh uh it is it is somewhat disappointing because it makes me question what um how do you conduct research as someone that is um responsible for sharing knowledge with the masses because you pointed out that the only source of information on farmer text comes from um from the South African police services what we call subs But international bodies such as the UN genocide watch have been following this matter. This is not something new. I've been within this discourse for many years. For many I've seen how it has

57:14 transformed where it started. I saw Trump speaking about this in 2018. I have been heavily involved and I know international bodies that have taken the the ch the decision to say okay this has been going on. this is the the the the information that is in circulation. Let us investigate. And they found that there was no factual information that said that there was any reality of a genocide in South Africa. Now when you say South Africa's we cannot rely on South Africa comparing the South African government to what the Germans did to the Jews. That is so that is so so so so funny because the same South African government is the one that is taking Israel to go and account for its war

58:00 crimes currently happening. But somehow they are the Jews. But the the the the the main thing that I want to point out specifically here is that the very South African government then the SAPs said to bodies like Afrey Forum okay provide these facts that you are saying that we are misrepresenting. provide this information that you are saying that we are misrepresenting. Give us these names, these people that we might not have recognized and put in the statistics. Do you know how many cases came out that were misrepresented or people whose names were left out of the South African report? One. Do you know the the skin color of that person? Black. So if anything, I hope that you take away from this that as a man who I

58:48 believe is respectable before making an opinion based off a person that you love cuz I can clearly see you love your president and that is okay. Please do further research and make sure that you do not become an example of what misinformation and disinformation leads to because in terms of facts, statistics and in terms of just general knowledge when speaking to a specific subject matter, it is essential to make sure that all corners are covered. If everything that if we were to take everything that you've just presented and we're going to compare it to to the facts, providing the evidence for it, it would be so sad to see that we are sharing a platform with people who do

59:33 not bother to make an effort to actually investigate matters that they give opinions on, specifically people who have to deal with the media. And it it it is a bit saddening but I think that before we start throwing around information and throwing around our weight it is essential for us to make sure that we know what we speak to or what we speak about. So moving forward from the clarice the what the the the the the president's um the oval office um I think that that was uh Ramaposa knew what was going to happen and to provide clarity Ramaposa knew that uh knows the song he never said that he does not know the song he never removed himself from um from Julius MMA the

1:00:19 people who did remove themselves were the member of parliament who is a part of the GNU uh John Sten and I do understand why they there is political uh tension between the two parties and um the richest man in the country. Um sorry uh I forgot his name but the richest South African in the country. Um what he said himself was Julas Malim has been coming for him for many years now and he understands and he provided context about South Africa's reality. how you decide to ignore all of that, all the facts that are provided there, that South Africa's problem is a problem of crime, no one hands down white people and decide that you are going to take what those two golfers, even though any else tried to balance his opinion. You

1:01:08 take the opinion of those two men and leave out everyone else's opinion, then it's out of my hands because you don't care about facts, you don't care about reality, you don't care about statistics, you don't care about any of that. your only concern and what matters to you is what you agree on with your president. So that is just the reality and I think that is the same pattern of behavior that we see with the president of the United States. It doesn't matter what factual information you give him that is backed by objective evidence. He takes a position and you cannot remove him from it because somehow he miraculously is able to know what is true without any evidence and the facts that you provide cannot be true because that is fake news. I hope that today we came here and we learned a lesson in

1:01:54 misinformation and disinformation because it is going to be odd to watch this um this this disengagement later on. Thank you Clar. Of course the the goal is for us to learn Mr. Let me just respond real quickly, Clarice. I think we have some agreement. Um, I don't trust what the white South Africaners are saying when it comes to the amount of genocide they claim. I don't trust the government denying that it is happening. You have a country that is a vast majority of African-Americans. The vast victims of crime will be African- well, not African-Americans, but they will be black. uh in the US the the vast majority of of of of African-Americans who are the victims of crime are victims of crime um despite their relatively low

1:02:42 percentage in the US at the hands of other African-Americans in their communities. So again, if I was going to try to help get to the bottom of this, I don't want to trust what the South Africaners political part is saying or or what the government is saying because governments are always going to try to cover their dirty laundry anywhere in the world. That's why I think it it would be nice to get to the bottom of it. And if it's not happening, then then let's make it clear to the world that this independent group has looked at it from an independent standpoint and can show this did not happen. This is not happening and that the crime problem in Africa is more a problem of crime, not a not a problem of of genocide. I I would I would though point out that that when

1:03:28 you look at at President Trump, the the packet that he presented to the president had had some like I think Pasca pointed out some stuff from the Congo that shouldn't been in that packet. That's bad staff work. Uh when President Trump was pointing to the to the crosses and the and the quote graves, they were representative of deaths. And if those are not actual representations, then the Associated Press vastly misreported that. And and then finally, I would just say that I think again Pasc and I would uh would agree that that you want to get to the truth and and that that when you've got sides that are putting their their thumbs on that uh that scale, it's hard to get there. It's actually bringing us to a bone of

1:04:16 contention. Is it crime or genocide or is it disinformation or misinformation and how do we actually uh bring about proximity to these uh terms to understand this? I think you will answer this question Mr. Iki. uh let's look at can we today given the the the status quo of the world especially when it comes to uh new perspectives of you know uh conquest and probably gaining a competitive edge in international affairs politics the economy can uh boast of an independent body that can uh bring authentic information pertaining uh the uh uh probably ideologies or

1:05:04 questionable ideologies in the world especially uh uh genocide in the present uh uh global status quo that we see propaganda and disinformation has uh probably have taken central stage. How can we navigate this very complex situation to bring a balance in whatever thing is happening across nations of the world be it in South Africa or in Israel in uh eastern Ukraine and pro probably across uh the African continent and the global world at large. Well, I think um the best way uh to be able to

1:05:52 uh you know talk about this issues is really through the eyes of uh the parties themselves um and and also the witness the facts um that are gathered on on on the grounds. Let the spark let's let let let let the facts speak for themselves instead of um people giving the opinions without any fact without any facts and uh uh you know making comparisons to Nazism to what happened to in in Nazi you know uh that the Nazi did to the Jews and all that stuff. I don't think we are we

1:06:39 having an interesting debate right now because of that um misrepresentation, disinformation that um Steve um uh propagated. Uh he's he's still doing it. He's not even uh aware of the impact that that could have. You know, I I think um our gentleman in South Africa gave us a lot of information. I think it's good to take that information and go and do additional research. Now, there are white people that are part of the South African government in the coalition. I understand. Absolutely. Um and so what have they said with regard to those allegation of

1:07:26 genocide? The more the word genocide is just too big of a word, too big of a word to be used in a way that is so uh you know careless. You know it's the what what is going on in South Africa that warrants the word genocide. We've seen genocide in Rwanda. We've seen what's happening in Gaza. We've seen so many genocides in the world. What is happening in that in South Africa? Who has died there? Where are the videos? We are in the world a new world where people have you know smartphones they can pick up they can film anything anytime and and and put it

1:08:11 out there. Where is the evidence to be even thinking about genocide? Genocide that word in this conversation what about South Africa shouldn't be there. It's it's it's an anomory. It's unacceptable. Hey, I will I will agree with the Kelly on that. I think Listen, listen. Let me talk. I don't need you to intervene, Mr. I don't need to intervene. I was agreeing with you. Okay. I don't want agreement. You don't even want agreement. Listen, it's not about agreement. You are not responsible. You are not taking responsibility for what you just did. And that is disappointing. You have to take responsibility for that disinformation that you propagating. You keep propagating. Video was not

1:08:58 disinformation. Gentlemen, I I just wish uh uh to call to attention that uh this platform we seek to share knowledge, share ideas and bring about you know uh a conclusion that will help in prospering global peace and stability. And uh we're here today to discuss this disinformation and how we as people who are conscious on of how the world functions can now bring about practical solutions to mitigate uh the uh the probably negative effect of this information. It is difficult to completely eradicate given uh the present global status quo. So as expert

1:09:44 of as people who understand uh the uh agenda of the global world, how can we now help uh people to shape their own perceptions constructively not to be entrapped in whatever maybe geopolitical contestation or maybe uh economic or even social contestation uh among people with defined personal agendas. Mr. Iam stay with you. Yeah. I mean I think the solution is to um uh to be very cautious about what we say to you know look at the facts um and understand you know perspective understand the environment understand uh

1:10:31 you know the the you know what's what surround every event. You can show me a video of somebody say something but the context matters. The context has to be taken into consideration. Otherwise, everything that we see, we can just blow it out of proportion to make our case. No, you know, you've been shown a video of people making allegations, saying things. Okay, it's probably a rally. Probably people are excited. Probably people are frustrated. They can say whatever they want, but on the ground, you know, what is happening on the ground is what matters. And uh when when there's nothing that's happening for real on the ground, we just dismiss that. You know, it's just talk. People talk, people say things, people vent. It's about venting

1:11:17 your frustration. You know, there is a huge uh population in South Africa that doesn't have a job, especially in the black community. They're looking for work. And those kind of situation can make people say things because they're frustrated. That doesn't necessarily mean that what's that's what the they really think deep down man you know you know and know how many times have you thought about you know harming somebody uh because that person made you mad you know but you know and then you cool down and then you say okay you know I'm sorry you know I said more than what I was supposed to say I didn't mean it and then you apologize and you move on that's what it is it's nothing uh unless there's action that you know actions

1:12:03 that shows with evidence that supports that viewpoint. We can't we can't just um assume that because of the video about people saying things then it is reality. No. Okay. That that kind of that kind of analysis is just plain wrong and then it's uh it's appalling coming from somebody who has a that level of experience that you have. So anyway, it is whatever it is indeed a complex situation. Now, Mr. Aki and uh like we said, we're going to chat ways forward. Uh let me come to you Pasca. Uh when I listen to the analysis actually brought forth by you Steve and uh uh Mr.

1:12:48 We want to come to understanding this. Uh we are in a state where many countries in Africa today are calling for reparations and I think the African Union has actually uh defined this year to be a year of reparations. They feel like they have to be maybe uh those who perpetrated heinous acts in the continent they have to pay for it. And now I want us to relate this now uh to probably how the African continent or political uh probably pundits and even politicians across the continent can strategically call for these reparations without using alterances that the world

1:13:38 or some major stakeholders can use against them. We're taking the case of Julius Malma and like Julia highlighted when she was talking that the prime or the optimal goal of this information is to trigger emotions and most likely emotions which are very you know violent like you always see you said earlier on that when you're angry you can grow out of proportion. Now knowing fully that this is if we want to accept that that is how uh this information work uh works information meant to trigger uh very fierce uh reaction emotional reactions that will give a larger scope

1:14:25 for the other party uh to attain this uh uh probably a defined or set agenda. How can we now cel the question is how can we now help our probably our African politicians to be more in uh probably strategic in calling for these reparations or probably calling for justice given what happened uh across the continent many years ago. so that we do not give the uh parties that still have stakes across the continent uh room to capitalize on some of the discourses that that will come from these renowned politicians uh probably for their own

1:15:10 good. Uh thank you thank you Clarice. Um in terms of reparations in Africa um actually I will come back to that as a second point. The most important point that I need to just put out there is um the matter of statistics. So I'm going to come to reparations because they're very important. But I think I need to now put my lecturer code on and my scholarly code on. Statistics do not work like that. Brother Steve, why? Uh you said there's a higher number of

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