0:00 What does an entrepreneur mean to you? Somebody who is ready to fail and learn from it. Entrepreneur is entrepreneur, what's such a big thing? Bought clothes, sold them, cooked food, sold them? Somebody who is a builder. Resilient fixer. He earns money for himself, not for others. Who earns money for the house, and for himself. Ask 10 people what an entrepreneur is, you get 10 answers. Selfish. Saviour. Gambler. Builder. Maybe all of it. Honestly, it changes by the day. You cannot learn this in a classroom. The syllabus changes every morning. The only education is actually doing it. So we ran an experiment, we call it The Foundery.
0:47 60 days ago, 25 people moved into a house in Alibaug. Strangers. Each one assigned to a new age consumer brand and given 4 crores to build the business in 90 days. Capital mentors manufacturers and a year of groundwork done before they even walked in. India is heading towards a 10 trillion dollar consumption economy. The brands that win will be built here. The street believes struggle makes the founder. We just removed the struggle. I dropped out, no degree, no network, no money. The story India loves. Then I got lucky. So I know both lives. Built with nothing, building with everything.
1:34 KB believes abundance creates. Give people everything and watch what they build. Ronnie built UTV on the opposite belief. Scarcity, frugality, earning every inch. The probability of us asking you questions from here onwards is going to be higher than you all asking the questions. Both philosophies are in this house and so is my question. Does a head start make a founder or unmake one? And here is the honest part. It's going well, too well to trust. So this episode is an audit of the model. Of the equity split everyone questions.
2:21 Of the founders of the three of us. I asked everyone in this conversation the same thing. 60 days in. What is working and what is not? You guys have done this a lot. I have seen, watched KB on camera quite a bit of late. Ronnie has been both behind and in front of the camera for a long time now. Front of camera, my early days. Behind the camera, most of my older days. Were you in front of the camera early days? Yeah. Acting? No, comparing television shows. Really? Which ones? Doordarshan days. Very, very early, early days.
3:07 That was my pocket money. That's when I kind of weekend money to go on dates. Everybody knows you two. But just to set context for today, we'll do like two minutes on both of you. Like I didn't know Doordarshan. Like maybe start from there. Tell us things about Ronnie that people do not know. Background, come from middle, lower middle class family. First 17, 18 years. Stayed in Grant Road. My mom and my two aunts were piano teachers. So a lot of girls used to come for piano lessons. And those were my first girlfriends in life. Really? How many girls did you date before marrying Ronnie? No, I'm not going to put that. Any camera. I'm not going to put that on any camera. Is it more than 10?
3:53 Yeah. Okay. Should I add a zero to it? No, I don't think we can. So it's anything between that and that. Not very relevant. But I think, yeah. Yeah? Sorry what? Could it be two zeros? No no no no no. We've passed that one. And yeah. So I think my schooling was at Dunn's Institute. And then we moved to a better neighborhood and I moved to cathedral school. And yeah. And I failed in my... I did very well in school. But got very arrogant. So failed in college a full year. Missed a full year. What were you studying? Commerce. And then that reminded me that I shouldn't be studying anymore. So I stopped studying. And? I finished my B.Com and stopped studying.
4:39 And then? Then I think I came to the conclusion that I'm not very good at implementing other people's vision. So I needed to do something on my own. And the opportunity came from? Opportunities don't come. They have to be made. So I think something happened and I started off with looking at cable TV. Again serendipitously. Because at that time I was doing front of camera work for Doordarshan. I was doing a lot of theater with Alec Padamsee, Pearl Padamsee and others. So that was buzzing in my mind. So creativity was buzzing in my mind. Media was buzzing in my mind. And in the Cuffe Parade region where I was staying, everyone was grumbling about the single Doordarshan. So I laid a cable to start cable TV.
5:24 That's how it started. Wow. And the big break was UTV in a way? Yeah, but the coconut has to be broken yourself. I don't think in my early years I got too many breaks, I have to say. I got broken up a lot, but I don't think I got too many breaks. Irony in the fact that you're here in Alibaug trying to give somebody a break? Yeah, but not the kind of break I got. Maybe a better break than the breaks I've got, yeah. Do people deserve a break? I think they deserve a break, yeah. But I think break doesn't mean patronizing. I think break is not something where you're going to put on a silver platter. Break is opportunities, yeah. So I think creating opportunities for people and working with them is exciting.
6:10 But it's as gratifying for me. I'm not doing it for the better good of mankind. I think it's also something that really gives me a lot of pressure. Is Foundery a selfish deed? Selfish? No. Why is it selfish? To you? No no no. On the contrary. I think when I saw the ad and then when Kishore called me and I think we spoke twice and I said, how can I participate? How can I do it? Sounds like a really good thing. Just sounded like something that could actually be a very unique model for India, right? Because if you're sort of creating and incubating a certain amount of business ideas, then you're inviting just the generation of enthusiasm that you generate when you have 100,000 people
6:56 wanting to participate in the Foundery in itself means you're doing wake-up calls. That means at least 100,000 dinner conversations on some dinner tables somewhere in India was had between parents and kids to say, should I go ahead, should I not? So to me, that's a start of something huge. And what is the aspiration for Foundery? What makes it a success in your mind? One year from now, we sit here again, which we likely will. I think we're continuing to evangelize the opportunities of entrepreneurship. I think India is a consumption story and I think the fact that in Foundery, our focus has been really more the consumption story and focusing more on consumer products, especially in a world right now that is heading so much more the tech way, I think just gives it the right kind of balance because India is going to be one
7:42 where I think consumer products and Indian market and consumption story is going to be as important and balanced because I think like small-scale and medium-scale sector in India is still very, very ignored. And I say that because I think the only other thing I would say is getting debt at the time at which I started businesses were almost impossible. And I can still see that cut to 20 years, 30 years later, small and medium-scale industries don't have the kind of finance they can to think big. So I think Foundery should be a benchmark for people to think big and recurring. KB, would you like to go next? About what? Who is KB that people don't know? I know KB in a whole bunch of different ways.
8:28 There are different versions of KB which appear on different days. Today was a fun version. But let's hear from you what you think of yourself and how life has changed over the years. I had a very interesting life. I was born in a joint family, parents. My father has six brothers. So 12 of them and we were 13 of us. A big joint family living together, same kitchen. So human dynamics at play. So when I look back, I think what I learned was how to manage human beings, how to manage relationships in a joint family. I think that has been a good start in terms of building relationships, building, managing people and...
9:14 Are you think you're good at relationships? I think so. Your wife is sitting right behind you. Would you agree? I think relationships are something which we involve ourselves quite deeply in. She's nodding her head. Maybe. I think that's maybe I look back, I think something which subconsciously you learn and that helps you in good stead. So when we were going through a lot of challenges, I think it's the relationship which works. You've had more ups and downs than a normal person. I saw up and up until COVID came in. When I look back, we compounded maybe 25-30% all my life. And I think maybe too ambitious,
10:01 too many things, too many ideas, too many things to do. And when you get an idea, you think you can do it. What did you learn about relationships from the down phase in life? I think that's what helped me to come back again or recover from the episodes, from the multiple events which we went through. Relationships with who helped? Everyone. Everyone around you. Everyone stood by me. Family? Everyone. Family, friends, business relationships. Everyone. Do you care more about being right or more about winning at something? I know you and I know you very well now in whatever capacity.
10:47 So I can ask you questions which I think are a little bit layered. Sure. I think I love winning. He's losing! Jonty, this is a very bad thing! Hold it! We have to... Don't have it! Come on! Don't have it! How is he losing? But... What if you win when you're not right or you're right but you don't win? But I'm... I think... Who defines what is right? So... Like a prediction. I think morally if I don't feel bad after, I'm right. And I think I'm morally quite okay.
11:34 I won't do wrong things. Where are you in life now? Like, I don't mean financially, I don't mean from the lens of business. I mean from a very emotional lens where you don't share with people maybe. What phase is this? If this were a chapter in the book of KB's life, what would this chapter be called? I think I'm... Probably it's the best phase of my life. Because I believe I've seen... I saw a peak. I saw the downfall. I'm restarting again. I think the confidence which I have now probably is far greater than what I had earlier. Because whenever I took a decision something similar, whether that was wrong or not. I think the ability to see through now because of the event which I have gone through
12:20 is helping me a lot in terms of taking decisions and being more confident. This is very personal advice for me. When you get lucky in life or things work out in life, when you see a peak and then there is a fall, you rise again but not all the way to the peak but halfway. Do you have to overcome the previous peak to feel that capitalistic high? I think you lose the idea of capitalistic high. Right. Because you become philosophical after you lose a lot. So I think philosophically, I think for me, creating anything new is a good high. So for us, for me in a way, for us, I would say Foundery is a very big high
13:06 in the sense of creating a new idea and giving it to life. Is it redemption in a way, like revenge? In a good way? What it does when something works, it's a redemption of some sorts. Dheer wanted me to ask you a question about marriage. This is not coming from me. You believe in marriage, evidently. At least superficially. She's saying yes. No? He doesn't? Marriage has a role to play. Marriage has a lot of role to play. Marriage has a role to play in terms of coming back to somebody. Marriage has a role to play in terms of building a family together.
13:51 Marriage has a role. It gives you stability. But you don't necessarily believe that it is right for other people. Not for your children, not for me. I don't know how Ronnie feels about marriage for his children, but how do you see the evolution of marriage? I think it depends. Every individually is made different. But I think going back at home to somebody is interesting. But I think it's a fulfilling thing. Do you do? I mean, I think marriage, firstly, if you're talking about for your kids, I think each one has to be done. I think the day of a dad or a mom sitting down on a dinner table and say, if you marry this man, you'll be happy for the rest of your life is out of the question
14:37 because there are no guarantees in life. So I think I'm very much each one to their own. I'm very happy that my daughter's married. I can't say I would have been equally happy if she wasn't married. As long as she was happy and involved with what she wanted to do, I don't think that would have been. It's always nice to have an anchor. In a previous life, Ronnie was a politician. The diplomacy comes from another life. So I have to lean on KB to say nasty things. Because that's what I mean. My daughter doesn't want to have kids. Now, I'd love to be a granddad, but I'm not going to be a granddad. I don't have any more than one daughter. So it's a question of acceptance and you move forward. So, no, I don't think it's about diplomacy at all. But you are a very diplomatic person. I think you're a diplomatic person to the T.
15:22 Like you never say one. In the time that we've been here at Foundery, I have said a bunch of random shit. He has probably said me multiplied by two. You have not said one thing really. No, I think I'm very candid and blunt. What you see is what you get. What is the most candid thing you said today in the 15 hours of us spending time together? When we said exit, keep or pass, I said exit in one line in that sense. And I think if this was, you know, somebody has to go home or no, I'm taking the... I mean, I think with me, no, I think it's what you see is what you get. Yeah, but you'll say exit. Like I would say something else and he would say something else. He would say, It looks dead Why is it kept over here? I would say my version of it. Yeah, but my Hindi is not so good, so I will just stick with the word exit.
16:10 No, but I have to say, no, I don't think I'm diplomatic. I think I may be a little bit, as I said, literally transparent and what you see is what you get. Would your friends think you're diplomatic? No, but they do say I'm quite actually blunt, but also reserved and quiet. So now when you go reserved and quiet and if somebody's having a major discussion on Trump, I'm not participating in that conversation because it's kind of redundant. That may be diplomatic or not. I don't know. I think I'm just... Let's try it one more time. What do you think of Trump? What do I think of Trump? You know, the first one year, I thought it was a good idea because the world needed unpredictability. I think everything was too well settled and I think unpredictability is the core for leadership. As far as I'm concerned, it's really one of the prize virtues.
16:57 If you're a little unpredictable, everyone's around on their toes in a good way and I think he brought that. Then it just went south. So right now it's in the deep, deep, deep south because yeah but I think when you go to a situation where you look at a self-interest of one nation versus everybody else, I think that's too extreme and I think that's where the country... Isn't every nation like that? Sorry? Isn't every nation like that? No. I don't think... When you have power, that's the first biggest responsibility you have is to not show the power and I think that's what most nations have done. There are enough nations that could use their power in a different manner. It's not like India is not super smart. We sit down with the armed forces and whatever else. They feel they're as good and as strong as China on the border
17:45 but will we ever take the first step? No. Is that a diplomatic answer again? Yeah. But that's okay. Okay, coming to Foundery. So there have been many versions of Foundery. I remember day one when KB described the idea to me. How long has it been now? I think the idea came to us in... I would say June last year. So it's been a year. It's been less than a year. What was the idea back then? What is it now? What has changed? I think there was an idea wherein...
18:31 I was... There were two ideas we were working upon. One was somebody told me to write a book and I was not willing to write a book and then I had another idea during that time to write a book or do something around the school of life for entrepreneurs. How can we build a system wherein entrepreneurs learn about how to lead a great life? Because entrepreneurs' life is very, very different and nobody works on helping them to lead a great, great life. So that was another idea. So I bounced every idea with Santosh and we decided we'll go to Kunoor to write it down. And we wrote down the book. In fact, he created a whole book, a whole chapter, a new book on the life from where I left last
19:20 to the current time. For everybody who doesn't know Santosh, Santosh is KB's third better half. They have a very nice toxic relationship of their own. They love each other and hate each other. Most of the questions I'm hearing is about having doubts. And I just, we don't, I personally don't understand that. I never had pocket money. But we asked him to ask a question. We were doubting him. No, no, no, we were talking about doubt. I think Kishore is giving quiet about the better half part. Hate each other publicly, love each other privately. So I think that was then the school of life and from there the idea became that one can build businesses in a residential program
20:06 and to create a whole ecosystem in which entrepreneurs can flourish and one can really create businesses. And we had some experience of helping many entrepreneurs in the last four years of building businesses in Think9, which a venture which my daughter started. So we helped build many entrepreneurs. And we thought just because the dominant medium of communication has changed, social media being the dominant medium, there was a whole new consumers emerging, new age consumers as we call them. And we thought they need new brands. They want to rebel by not consuming the same brand which their parents consumed. Most of the brands which were created earlier were built on television or newspapers and they were meant for everyone.
20:52 Do you see this trend everywhere like the David and Goliath? People don't want to buy from corporations anymore like Hindustan Unilever and ITC and they want to buy independent individualistic brands. Do you see that as a trend? I'm not seeing that too much of a trend. Firstly, I think all of them see themselves as Indian companies. I think everyone's looking for the right bargain and the right price. So I think that would be what comes most people. But I've not been exposed to a sense where I won't buy from a large company, but I'll buy from a small company. I feel like I have become like that. Are you like that? No, I've not become like that, but I'm seeing a trend. I'm seeing a trend about people liking Indian brands. When you say people, you mean Indian people?
21:37 Indian people. They are experimenting with a lot of new ideas, a lot of new brands and a lot of new products and which are mostly built in India. I think if you said McDonald's or Coke, I think it would be different. But if you said levers, Hindustan levers and ITC, it would be different because that big company, Indian company, I don't think is the case. But if they're looking at more Indian versus America. You can take the example of Nike and Coke. If Nike and Coke are the Goliaths, you think the Davids are winning, people are picking them? No, I think that's where... I also feel very strongly about that. So what is the use case for Foundery now? Why are we building 20 or 15 by the end of this month, who knows? Consumer brands, is it because we believe
22:26 Indians who are affluent... First thing, just to set context, we are building brands for the mass premium and premium, right? Yeah, what we call India One. Just to like rehash this conversation we've all heard, who is in India One? Anybody who has domestic help at home and who doesn't do something with their own hands is India One. Are we betting that these people will pick David over Goliath brands? I think so. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. You put a number to this, right? How many people are there in this? I would say around 30 million families. But I still think they're looking for innovation versus David and Goliath context. I still feel they're looking for innovative products,
23:12 they're looking for a new set of way things are presented and a campaign can be catchy. Anything else that can catch them and go through. So I don't think it's aversion to one and a sort of negative vote for the other. That's the reason why we will succeed. I think we'll succeed because we'll have to be as innovative. If you're not innovative and haven't got the best products, you're not gonna be able to do it. Maybe I'm seeing David and Goliath because it's harder for the larger guys to innovate and it's easier for someone new. Yeah, but I think if you look at now the new economy companies, many of them have become Goliaths and they were David's about three years back. For example? I think some of the new economy companies today, whether it's Zomato or Nykaa or Lenskart in the financial sector or many other sectors. You're part of some of these.
23:59 Do you see them changing in tenor and becoming less desirable when they become big and people know that they have become big? I don't and I'm not saying that for myself. I still feel from a younger audience point of view and everywhere else and I talked to a lot of people in that age group. No, I don't think so. I think they've got a good sense of pride in what they want to go out and do. If the quality is great and the product is great or the service is great, they're quite happy to do that. Okay, so we've established Foundery somehow is betting on David versus Goliath. We are catering to India One with domestic help which is about 30 million families. What other consumer trend are we seeing that makes the use case for Foundery sound right now?
24:47 I think they want to consume new categories. Which were not... What is a new category? New categories are basically, if you look at in terms of food, I think Indians are now willing to experiment with multiple cuisines. So we need a lot of ingredients for that cuisines and India can't import everything. So there are a lot of new age entrepreneurs who are building these ingredients. For example? I would say so many kinds of condiments, so many kinds of dips, so many kinds of sauces. Basically, we are copying Western recipes or Eastern recipes which have worked well. Not copying, I think we are creating our own version. With the nuance of the Indian-Dutch maybe.
25:33 You used to say this to me a couple of years ago that when India consumes, it won't be new categories, it'll be old categories reimagined. Either you or Santosh, one of you guys used to say this. Santosh says this a lot. But we agree to that, India is... But a dip is not an old thing reimagined, it's a new thing. But I think it's the options now available. Earlier we hardly had an option. Like if there was a sauce, there was a tomato sauce. Mayonnaise is also not a very, very old product. It's been there for not a very long time back. So now we see multiple options because we have started consuming a lot of cuisines. Okay, this is one consumer trend that we are making the dips, condiments
26:19 because Indian families are starting to consume Western products. We're making them in India. What else? I think second is better for you. Health. Yeah, better for you in the sense no maida, no less sugar and much more healthier ingredients. This worked out in super you, right? What would have happened if super you was like David? 28 grams of protein, 150 calories cost 500 rupees. Yeah, but I think you need the technology to get less calories. You can do the rest. Any trend that you're seeing, Ronnie? New India consumption trend that we are basing Foundery on? See, I think firstly, there is an entrepreneurial story here also, right?
27:04 Because if these 20 succeed and which they will in some form or the other, it's about timing. I think you're also taking something to the next level. I think the balance we're doing here, I feel very strongly that because everyone is so over-indexed on tech, I think the fact that we're talking about an India consumption story, we're talking about innovation in food, in health habits, in pets and many other categories that we're looking at here. I think it's a good balanced way for a lot of people to do that because in India, we'll have to, everyone's not going to be able to gravitate. The herd mentality is some of the major setbacks India has had from time to time. How would you summarize that as a trend? Of the consumer products? First, we need to shift the herd mentality a little away from tech.
27:49 It's fantastic. And there's a lot going to happen in tech. And a lot more leaner companies are going to get formed and a lot more people will raise invoices in six months. But if you look at the model here, at the end of 90 days, we're hoping somebody will cut their first invoice. I don't think when I was starting businesses, I could think of that. When anyone's making a plan, they look at six months, nine months, one year, two years. So the ability to get that going, I think is a very, very strong model. Fair. I think at some level, the aspiration for all of us is to see Indian brands, which not only do well in India, but they sell in the US or in other countries. Hopefully, we can achieve it at the end of this. So Foundery, if you have to describe it as a project,
28:36 do you think we should call it a college? I don't, I'll not call it a college. I will call it a residential program, wherein you create an environment for people to compete and perform best and create something alongside with us, alongside with the entire ecosystem. I don't know, what are the vibes right now? What vibes are you getting? Summer camp. Summer camp, right? That's what I've been telling her. Treat this like a newly renovated house, which means you do move in, but there's always little things still happening, right? So give it a couple of days, keep talking to me, keep talking to us, telling us what can be made better, or not even just better, get creative. If there's something that you feel like,
29:21 for all of you, is going to be helpful, or when you go to the office and you feel like something's missing, very happy to do that. A college is where you learn, and I think the Foundery is where you earn. So I think the L gets dropped. Now, we are all lifelong learners and we'll always be learning all our lives. So not taking the L of that part there. I think the focus here is not one where it's workshop and sit down and incubate. I think it's, let's get on with it. And I think that represents the spirit of how people are building today. So we put out an application, a lot of people applied. We found 25 people we thought were the most capable after all the elimination in 100 different ways.
30:11 And each of those 25 people got a certain amount of money, or getting a certain amount of money in phases. The initial commitment was 4-5 crores each? 4 crores each? 4 crores each, yeah. To all 20 of those companies. And 90 days to live in a house here in Alibaug, along with people who kind of know everything about consumer businesses. Absolutely. Right? Yeah. What happens at the end of 90 days? Say I am a toothpaste company. I got the money. I came into Alibaug, I moved here. I started living with 25 kids my age, which is about 28. Made a bunch of new friends,
30:56 started competing with them, started building a toothpaste company. Found a manufacturer, a packaging guy, content person, I put the product out. I've done all of this by day 90. What happens after day 90? Maybe I will just say that what happens after the 90th day is the 91st day. And I think that's how our entrepreneurs should look at it, and that's how anyone from the outside should look at it. Because business is a flow. It's not a D-day or an X-day. And I know there is a sense of a finiteness where you've finished some part of it, and there could be some funding crossroads. But those to me are also, they may happen, they may not happen. That's not a badge of honor. That's not a benchmark. It's not a thumbs up.
31:41 I think they should look at this as now a permanent commitment. If they're not looking at the 91st day, then it's very transactional for them. I think people have to commit to be in this for the long run to thick and thin. So on the 90th day, they get to raise money again? Yeah. And they may need it. They may take their own judgment call. It'll be a good judgment call for them to figure out, do I want to dilute now? Do I want to dilute later? Do I need the money? Is money the key part for me to grow? Am I going to be a lot more savvy? There's so many other things, and which is why I think we should look at it as after the 90th day comes the 91st day. At least that's how I would put it. I think the program has been designed for a 12-week. Yeah. Wherein we have designed the 12-week with every week with a subject.
32:27 So that at the end of that week, you reach certain goalposts. So how far are you expecting these guys to be at the end of the 90th day? I think 90th day, they should be ready with a business plan. Should they not be selling already? In some categories, they would have produced because they will be going through manufacturing, formulation packaging then supply chain, then the growth or the distribution channels, and then they will be making the pre-handle. And they will be getting ready for the 90th day because we have certain gates. And 90th day is a gate wherein they present what they have done up till now as a product, as a business plan. And what is the expectation they have from this business which they present to the outside world and they get themselves valued. So that is one stage where they go through
33:14 whether they want to raise money because they have got four crores in the bank, whether they need the next round, what is the level of ambition they have, what is the kind of business plan they have made. And I think outsiders or some investors are judging you based whether your idea is good enough or it's worthy to be funded for the next round or not. Since people are inherently competitive, don't you think on the 90th day, whoever raises money at the highest valuation in that peer group will feel like a winner? I think fortunately or unfortunately, that's the way people are viewing it. Anybody who is raising money at a higher value is getting judged. Being a unicorn is a status symbol. Raising money at a certain value gets you certain kind of success metrics
34:01 as the world views it. But I think what you are building, one should get joy in that because every business will have its own trajectory, have its own shape. Some people might like a certain business but selling a concept is about storytelling. Somebody might be a better storyteller, he can raise better money but somebody might be an introvert, a shy person, may not be able to raise money but maybe he is doing business maybe much better than the other person. But we will teach them to be a better storyteller in 90 days. We have to teach them to be a better storyteller because that's the way things are operating now. But it comes naturally to somebody. And the other wonderful thing about the startup ethos is the fact that failure in fact is just on the way to success. I failed three times before I succeeded.
34:47 Somebody failed 11 times but nobody will talk about that. So it's not yet, is it untrue? No, a lot of founders are like that. A lot of those stories are real but the narrative that is constructed, that's the key to be aware of the narrative inside which you are residing. So a lot of people in the cohort have come up to me at different times and said unlike a startup outside of Foundery if they were to start a company in Bangalore or elsewhere here they get to keep 25% of equity whereas the Foundery keeps 75%. And many have taken issue to it
35:32 in different ways at different times. Do you both have answers for it? Like Ronnie, would you like to go first? Well, I think if a founder doesn't have issues there's a problem. So I think you'll always have issues. It's like you'll always think your company's undervalued and that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. And every time you're diluting you think X, Y, Z. So this is not a balanced argument. I think that's the proposition because there's a fair bit of incubation that has happened. The reason why this 90 days is happening is because of the one year's work before that. There's one year of work with incredible amount of experience of everyone who understands consumer insights and has built consumer products at scale. That wherewithal is like two years of reservoir.
36:19 You would have lost 40%, 50%, 60% of your company raising money, losing a little bit of that money, failing a little bit on that whole thought process and anyway be at about 25% in my view to get to that same place. So it's not a justification. I think now whether that we're in 25% or 40% one can argue, but the headstart in life in a time where you save two years that's also a big one. So I think between these two it's a good balanced approach. And this is not a pitch from our side. It's a good model. And I think people should just look at it. I think the 25% at the end of the day is the value you create. It's not the percentage, right? Because if you can build a billion dollar company or you can build a $2 billion company you're gonna be worth very differently. And the question is, is this an easier path to get there?
37:05 Is there a faster path to get there? Am I gonna be more competitive than others? I think the answers for all of that is yes. You've seen this happen, right? Whenever a company has a really big upside the founder, if he has been a critical part of that journey, generally claws back through MSOPs or something like that. And state he has enough liquidity, more than enough. Like in Lenskart. Yeah, so what's the question? No, I said if a founder at some point in his journey had less equity but he had a big impact on the outcome of the company we'll figure a way to claw back some equity either through MSOPs or something like that. Sure, but that is between all the investors
37:51 who feel that they've got disproportionate returns and then want to give out a certain level of MSOP. That negotiation is happening there but it happens in the US. It happens in capitalistic countries. I mean, Elon Musk says, here's my goalpost. If I do my goalpost, I'll get a trillion. So I think that's kosher anywhere. I don't think it's a unique part here. Just one thing I wanted to add here which is very important Foundery what fascinates me like we spent today here from an age group of 20 to 37, right? So it's just fantastic in India to see at 20 years that we're backing them to the hilt. We're excited about what they're doing here. And I think that's also a very strong story that's coming on. These are not people who have got an opportunity on their own. Of course, there are a few people who in any case would break out and do that.
38:38 So I think this is the exciting part here that we've not looked at. We've got more women entrepreneurs than men entrepreneurs here. So if you look at these two statistics- I think that's because of KB. Everybody thinks KB favours girls more than boys. Because he has two daughters. I was not part of the selection process. Because of the daughters. Why not? Yeah 100%. I feel like he once told me this thing about if China had- the number of women who work in China, if India had that, our GDP would be somewhere else. My take on this take is let's suppose we are two partners. And we start 50-50. And I put in four crores. What's your equity?
39:24 So, plus I think we are spending, if I'm not wrong, we are spending one crore on every person in this programme. Secondly, we are getting it right in the beginning. They are not going to make mistakes and they are not going to- this company is not going to pivot as much as normally a start-up does. And the business idea comes from Foundery, not from them. And secondly, lastly, I think our success rate will be far, far higher than any start-up which will be. Because it's coming with a lot of wisdom. I think the combination of wisdom and energy is what is creating this business. But to get to that same place, a minimum of 30-40% deletion would have happened in any case. Because in the early days, when you are only at a concept note, and even angels come in, or friends and family come in, that's when the time when you lose 20-30% immediately.
40:09 Second, what's the price you want to pay for a co-founder? If you want to get a co-founder, you're anyway, if you're in that 60 zone, you'd be down to 30 if you're two people. Here, I think everyone needs and values the experience of co-founders. So there's a cost for co-founder. And that I think is all, if you look at all of that, I think it's well stacked up. What else am I missing, guys? First part. So we have a live audience today for the first time. So the first part is us trying to demystify what Foundery is. What am I missing? Santosh? Without forgetting, I think you've got about 100,000 people without any mystifying, just on putting out a little bit of announcements, right?
40:55 100%. Yeah. Everyone, this is Santosh. He spends a few months in the mountains, a few months in Goa. He fights with KB in the evening and has dinner with KB at night. You can say anything, right? What are you saying? But one has to adjust to everybody, man. It's a permission to fight. I like watching you guys fight. It's nice. You won't be able to do anything by your own judgment, man. Why will I? Who's groveling, man? Now, right now, you're doing that. Just because I'm not intimidated by you, I cannot do that. You're intimidated. But they were not intimidated yesterday, man. You know what I mean, right? But that doesn't mean that it's there. Just tell us.
41:43 And yeah, tell us. But this is the first big altercation we ever had. Yeah, almost 20 years. Yeah. You've never had a fight as big as today? Once only. Once, little bit skirmish, but nothing like this. No, I think the spark was more like, these are all my kids, so why are you telling me about my kids when I need to know about my kids? Actually, the emotion I get in a way is Santosh is more emotionally attached to the kids. KB is more emotionally attached to the business. Yeah, that's possibly true. Yeah probably. I do think that, you know, we have a responsibility for these kids. I don't think it is, I don't see this as only a business opportunity. I think that is a promise that is made to kids that when they're coming in, and we know that they're wrong, right?
42:30 We know that they're not perfect. And I think there is a responsibility that we have to kind of hold them and to give them chances, right? So that's where I come from. And so I guess sometimes, and I do know that in a couple of instances where I felt that, you know, perhaps you're being too harsh, but when we actually go through and actually interact with those people, you find that, you know, maybe that was right. So I'm not necessarily, at the end of the day, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with where we land, but it's sometimes just the process and the fact that we don't account for it enough. I wonder whether that is the reason. Answer the two questions you asked just now. No, I remember that first. Yeah, so I think one of the things, the first question was whether, you know, in terms of ideas,
43:17 how do we generate the ideas? And I think a lot of those ideas came from the kind of work that we've done over the years, where we do this extensive amount of consumer work. And we therefore have some reasonable sense of, you know, at an underlying level, how society is moving, how changes are happening, what are the big things that are shifting? And therefore, I think there is a better nose, if you like, for opportunities. And therefore, we back ourselves a little more than perhaps other people because of the fact that it is rooted in a lot of ground level work. So I think that's what helps generate ideas. The other, I think part of it was the process that they go through here and how do we look at them. And I think there,
44:02 I think we have been clear. I think the fact that, you know, we had this gig this morning, where we, you know, all of us looked at and evaluated everything that was done. And that was also a result of, like I think KB explained, a week by week gradual kind of a process where we took them through various elements of building businesses. I mean, in that sense, it was one of those things that went hand by hand. So I mean, we took them through the paces and then we evaluated them. And I think the evaluation, it helped a lot that, you know, Ronnie and you were there because it brought a strong outside perspective. People who haven't been as intimately involved with the actual process. So it allows for a completely different outside perspective to come in
44:48 and perhaps see things that we may have missed. So I do think that there are instances where that kind of an outside perspective is very useful because it allows us also, you know, because we can sometimes get, you know, caught up in the flow of things. So I think, so overall, I think it's a pretty robust process that we are following here. I think when we started, there was a process of creation of Foundery, wherein the idea came in, me and Santosh developed the thought. I think the first person I met when Foundery was conceptualized, when it was at School of Life stage, I met Nikhil and Nikhil said, I would love to be part of it. Then we thought we need multiple lenses. So Garima came in as a life coach and a leadership coach lens. Then we got Aditya Saigal,
45:34 who came from AI and FMCG lens. We had Jacob who came in from a design and pedagogy on education lens. Akash Chaudhary again from that education lens. And Lipika was there, part of Santosh's team on the brand lens. We had a lot of other people, Santosh, I don't remember. You forgot Tanya. Tanya has been there, part of my office. But we had multiple disciplines. Shivank. Tanya and Shivank they represent the younger generation. And Shivank always used to talk, defending the... Shivank always talks when he doesn't have to and doesn't talk when he has to. Right? That's his speciality. I don't know why. So Shivank is young, successful and single.
46:21 And he's been 23 for 3 years. Yeah. Which is a unique achievement that only he has. And his big task for the next year is to talk to 20 new people who look unlike him and make friends. Shivank, how is that going? Very much. So the idea was, how can a multidisciplinary approach take... Whenever I miss out on something, I'm trying to do something, I get caught by somebody. Everybody who joined in the design thinking was very secured people. All evolved souls, I would say. And I think that helped in this creation process to a great extent. I'm trying this creation method in other areas, it just doesn't work. This has been a rare thing where
47:07 nobody has said no to be a part of this. Everybody has contributed in some manner. In the last joint meeting when you had... You talked about the weekly design. I think had we not done that, this program would have not developed in a particular way. Ronnie has... Whenever I have some challenges, I speak to Ronnie. Because he is one who is very decisive and I can look forward to something. He brings in something which I don't have. And he knows how to get exits. He knows how to... He understands better than anybody else. Eventually we need that skill set. So everybody brings in a varied skill set. And I believe that's a unique... It was a unique design thinking to get a multidisciplinary approach
47:53 to create something. You represented the younger generation, the new media, the new way of looking at life and business. So we're all waiting to hear from you. I don't know why you're waiting for me. But no, lovely to meet you guys. I think I met many people last night. I recognized a few faces. Looking forward to spending the next few days with you. Today is, I think, more offline. We will have more conversations in person. The stage and audience is not the best way to get to know somebody. So if you see me somewhere, come say hi. And we're trying to put a paddle group together.
48:41 So if any of you guys play, or girls... Yeah? Good? I think it's an interesting group of people who came together to build Foundery. I think this is something very unique about Foundery. And whether we can replicate something like this, I'm trying for some other business. It's just not happening. What's happening in Foundery? That's rubbing off on our co-founders. Right. Clearly. It looks like. It does. It's rubbing off on them. Because they also feel very, very comfortable. And there is no politics between them. So they've seen that agenda here. And therefore, they're very collaborative. If they saw a little bit of this thing, it would have permeated there. So I think that's fantastic.
49:26 Lipika, you've never been on camera, right? Get in. This will catch it, no? The boom will catch it? Lipika, tell us what you do. To begin with. You have this very artsy looking person vibe. Yeah. Like you could be an artist or something like that. Yeah, I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a filmmaker. Yeah see? I knew. I'm sorry you ended up here, but. No, I haven't ended up. Why? I could still be. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Why do you keep saying it in a different past tense kind of tonality? You can still do it.
50:12 Yeah, so I haven't become a filmmaker yet. But on this journey, I would like to think that I storytell. My Instagram handle is that I write poetry for capitalists. That's quite interesting, actually. Because capitalists pay well. Never well enough. See? That's like that 25% thing. Everyone has a... Yeah. It's never ever the right number. So she has been part of every discussion till date on Foundery. Yeah. She's been part of every brand creation. And she's converted all of the ideas into the poetry and the words. So I think... So you agree with every single idea?
51:00 I believe that every single idea has the potential to be story told in a strong way. Which is your favourite and which is your least favourite? I have two favourites, I would say. I think definitely the Indic beauty idea. Because I just think it's so beautiful and it has so much potential. And nobody has gone there before in terms of just being able to story tell. Indie-why? Indie-wise. Yeah, but I think that's different. I think the take on it is slightly different. I think we... The way we are imagining it, I think we want to go much closer to the roots and to, I think, sort of more authentically story tell it. I think revive something that has actually never been told in marketing. So I find it very interesting as a narrative in beauty.
51:45 I think it can build something that is really unique. And the second favourite? No clue. Really? Jelly drinks, yeah. I like the team a lot. I like the team. Yeah. I think a lot of it has to do also with... I think the founder fit with that idea is just so bang on. It's a beautiful fit. I think she owns it, she lives it. Yeah. She loves it. I mean, you know. I'm going to ask you one last hard question. Tell us one flaw in KB, in me and in Ronnie, in how we are approaching Foundery and what we could do better. Something you would never say to our face because it would just be awkward.
52:31 With KB, sometimes I think just to sort of listen to the other person's... He doesn't listen? No, no, he does, but I think... You get this a lot. No, I think he listens, but... You're retreating halfway. No, no, I think he listens, but... He doesn't listen? No, I think he hears, but doesn't listen maybe at some point. Nikhil, I've like... Quickly didn't make eye contact with him after saying that. Looked away, Nikhil. Yeah, I'm easier, do me. Maybe you react too soon.
53:16 Good yeah. And Ronnie, I think you might intimidate people a little bit. Which yeah. Which I don't know if it's a bad thing. You mean I do, it's not like I might. No, yeah, I think you do. I think what she means is very consciously being done. Yeah, so yeah, I think you do. But then I'm not sure if that's a bad thing all the time. I mean, it could be at some points. But yeah, I think they might put on their guard when... Thank you, Lipika. Thank you. Is there something else you want to talk about? How did we select people? Yeah? Yeah, human being story. It's a full human story about selection of people. He's too nice to build a business. Too nice to build a business. He cannot be rejected. We can ask him to shorten the name.
54:02 No. That's the guy with... The guy with three buttons on him. Guy with three buttons on him. And the biceps. He's up or down? He panicked because the social media... From Fauji's page, we put up photos in the booth. So he said, I've lied at my job. Nobody knows. My parents don't know. I'll get into really deep trouble. And I'm like, okay. I just want to make sure that we're finding founders. And we're not setting up a school to develop founders. If you're objecting to set up schools for developing founders, I think we have to leave it to the authorities. Yeah, so the girlfriend go for the boyfriend? No, no, I said the boyfriend. Let's do that. Let's just... Screw up their lives. I'll make rotis for the Foundery and leave it. Bilal, contrary to what appears, we're not morons. We will try and strive to prove you wrong.
54:49 They're playing poker tomorrow. So that might reveal more things. Personally, any backlash from people would have been good. Yeah definitely. Some in our DMs for sure. 100%. Not just that, in social media. I only see backlash when they see this footage. We saw transformation in most of the people. Did they believe something else? And today they believe you more than they believe themselves? Not about me. I think they believe in the Foundery, the idea of Foundery. The ideas of Foundery? The idea of Foundery. The Foundery as an idea. I think the biggest thing... Foundery has been built on two design principles. One is abundance. We are not holding back on anything. And second is the whole concept of giving. We are not taking anything from them. In fact, we are giving them wisdom.
55:35 We are giving them ideas. We are giving them capital. We are giving them resources. We are giving them ecosystem. We are creating an environment for them to... I think they have started understanding this giving. And they have started respecting us for what we are giving them. In the beginning, it was not there at all. But because nobody gives. They came with the intention that we are there to take something from them. The media was reporting we are going to take something from them. I think they don't have any kind of reservation anymore now. Because they have seen that our temperament is to give. That transformation has happened very quickly. I think it was there in the beginning. Again, at the cost of repeating myself, I think that original perception always starts with... When you feel you are something, you always feel you need to take three steps away.
56:23 So you always look at a cup half full first. But I think they have seen the cup. That's very different right now. Any other trends that you have seen? But we are seeing... People want to consume new brands in every category. We got that. New brands, new categories, yes. We are dealing with a lot of impermanence. The loyalty factor of this generation is much, much lower. Because the kind of content and media they get to consume is far, far more. So how do you maintain a loyalty for a brand for a long period of time? So there is an opportunity to build so many things. When you speak about impermanence, do you believe brands that are built today do not have to last 10, 20, 30 years?
57:09 But even if they last for five and do well, it's good? You have to imagine the brands again. You will have to pivot something or the other to make it relevant for another generation. Because I believe the things do change much faster than... The rate of change and the pace of change is much faster than what it used to be earlier. Yeah, if it's a zero sum at the end of five years, no, that's not a good thing at all. But if it's evolving and more relevant, that's what is needed anyway. So a brand that could last 30 years may last five unless it's... So I remember if you look at the story of any brand in India, whether it's a Haldiram or any other, I think the curve of adoption of that brand and when they became very big, it has taken them years.
57:55 Today to zero to 100 is much faster than it was ever. For everything. You're building a lot of brands with celebrities. Super You with Ranveer, Flux with Ranveer, a bunch of others. I think Deepika, Momcare. Is this working? Is it sustainable? Do people want to buy what the stars sell them? So the idea is if you bring in the real story, the real character and embody that personality into the brand, the chances of that getting accepted by the consumer is far higher. Because consumer is not looking at endorsement brands now anymore. Anybody who comes in, takes money and endorses a brand, I don't think so that works anymore at what used to work earlier. But I'm told that still works in B2B.
58:42 The dealers, distributors still are okay because you are using some celebrity to advertise your product. So they get into distribution. I think here we are directly dealing with the consumer and consumer wants to relate to that personality. A, how do you figure out what is the celebrity's underlying emotion that can be sold? And B, is equity the new name for endorsement fee? Equity is where they commit themselves and that's where they are seen as partner and they believe in something what they are doing. Without equity, I think it's money and endorsement. But if a celebrity tomorrow has equity in a hundred brands, doesn't that become endorsement fee? I think, but it depends again on how you embody that personality into the brand. What do you think about that, Ronnie?
59:29 It connects in sometimes. I think it's not a general statement. You have to pick and choose. But I also feel, yeah, if somebody's got skin in the game, the genuineness comes out, right? If you're putting your money where your mouth is versus looking at it as a transaction, that's it. I think in the past, things like using it as a barter was the old days. I think today anyone is making a circumspect decision where cash is king. And if I want to trade it with stock, I need conviction. I think giving or sharing some percentage equity in lieu of endorsement fee is not what we are trying to do. It's a co-creation exercise wherein I believe the celebrity is fully involved in creation of... Today, I think more of them, they see themselves as co-founders. Totally totally.
1:00:14 Yeah, it's not, you know, they will come in there and say, what can we do? And they're also thinking about it. It's not like they're available and clocking the hours. Do you think the audience cares that much? Audience can see through everything now. Now, if a Bollywood actor or a cricketer is the co-founder of a particular brand, does it make such a difference really? I think we have been very passionate about building all these three celebrity-led brands. And we feel we have worked more on understanding the personality and bringing that personality in the product and in the category and in the brand. Right. I think we have gone deep and deep and deeper. Yeah, I mean, sports make stars. I mean, you sometimes have a large following on a sport also
1:01:01 because people have come in there. So, I think it's a circle of life. Bilal, you want to come to 90th day? Come. Talk about the neon lights. Yeah. Finally, Bilal is doing something. Demo day. He's getting a sponsor. Getting a sponsor. I have three good-looking sponsors ready for me. So, I'll describe. Let me introduce. I don't think you must. I work with Nikhil. Let me introduce Bilal. I work with Nikhil. I don't need an introduction. Bilal got married a year ago. That's cool. To a lovely girl called Zenera. But, as we all know... What do you know, bro?
1:01:49 I got married to her and I'm married to her. I love her. We have better relationships. Bad relationship. I knew this was going to come. Okay, carry on. What's happening on the 90th day? We all don't know. You seem to know. Tell us. Basically, the 90th day is the event where we showcase all the 20 brands that we form in these four months. To who? It's going to be an invite-only event where we will get the best investors, the right kind of VCs, the right family offices. Very few of them. And we'll give them a sneak peek into what we've built in these four months. And it's going to be a very exciting event.
1:02:34 Very well produced. Each brand is going to have a very unique way of storytelling. And I think for us, all 20 need to succeed. Which is why we're really working hard for each brand to have a narrative of its own. And not just 20 boring presentations like a flea market. So it's going to be a very exciting event. And I don't think we have cool entrepreneurship events happening in India. So I feel like this could be the beginning of that one cool IP that can happen every year with every batch of Foundery. Inshallah. You're not so funny when you're on camera. I am very funny. I just don't... You know, I'm only funny with you. But then now if I make jokes about you, I don't want your camera perception ruined.
1:03:22 Yeah, that's what I don't believe. I don't believe in controlling the edit. There needs to be free speech on this podcast. Say what you want. I think... Feel free. 90th day, just be there, everyone. Are we founders? Are we investors? I think we are founders first. Founders. So if something fails, is it our fault or the kids we put through Foundery? It's our fault. Definitely our fault. But I mean, not fault in a... I mean, things are going to fail. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, things are going to fail. So I don't know about this, the fault.
1:04:09 We'll pick it up because I think that fundamentally, the ideas are pretty strong. The idea that we are founders and we kind of believe that something succeeding or failing is our fault. Will they like that idea? They will also hold themselves accountable. I don't think it's a singular thing. But I'm saying you asked a question in a point of view that are we also? Yeah. But will they also be? Sure. And I think they'll look at it because they're hoping that we're going to have some safety nets for them and we'll catch them every time they fall. And that's not the best way, by the way, because sometimes we'll want them to fall. Because that's the best way that it's going to work there. But I think this is not about responsibility because I think we're pretty clear
1:04:55 what we need to do. Our ability, you know, Kishore has talked about in his introduction exactly that, like you have to stick it out for the long term, right? So I think what we're going to have is a much more longer term view. And I think that longer term view with their excitement, their passion to build something fast, it's a great combination. What happens if the 20 brands don't work? They don't sell. Eight months down the line, we have to shut them all down. We all lose money and time and other things, reputation and everything else that comes with it. Will we have a batch next year? I think we are thinking of a batch next year already. So I think whenever you design, whenever you plan something, design something,
1:05:41 we are entrepreneurs here, taking risks and putting our knowledge. Yeah, I don't think anything sold the first time or the second time or the third time. I told you about cable TV, didn't find a customer for a year. At least nine times everyone told me get out of their kind of situation. First five movies I made all flopped, disasters. My CFO came in and said, please let's get out of this. So... The thing with KB, right? The one thing that I notice in every meeting, when the founders we have, the younger kids, when they pitch an idea, you kind of like want to show skepticism and then KB comes in with all excitement and optimism and says the same thing in a different language. And you're like, wait, what?
1:06:28 Could this work? You have a lot of optimism in life. Yeah, yeah. I'm an eternal optimist. And I think optimism is what should be a hallmark of an entrepreneur. We have to, we are here to succeed. I think, but failure is also a step to succeed. So it's a journey. And I think Foundery as an idea, if you look at it, there's no reference point. That is, it's a fresh imagination and everybody believes in that imagination. And till now, I've created 120+ businesses and I don't think so there is anything like Foundery which has gone right from conceptualization or it's not changed form, anything significant from the day we started to this day. We started searching, what is this model?
1:07:14 Then it came out, it's a collective hive where everybody's equal, everybody's contributing. And there is a creation which is happening. And every journey of creation, every step of creation, we are looking at it and I think it's shaping up okay. It's shaping up probably much better than what we imagined. And the question of long-term capital versus thinking like a VC, I don't think pertains to us too much because our capital is long-term capital here. Yeah. I don't think any of us are looking for exits per se. Yeah. Right? Yeah, I think, but more than long-term capital, I think it's the long-term thinking, frankly, if you ask me. It's definitely there. Thinking of the- So your case scenario of Armageddon, 20 companies, no sales,
1:07:59 I think the only real failure would be if we don't continue
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