EX BRAS DROIT D'ELON MUSK : "IL NE VEUT QUE DES GENS HARDCORES"

0:00 In the Silicone Valley, there are those who watch the trains go by and those who lead them. Karim Busta, himself, has always had his hands on the wheel. He left France with a CV of engineer, a well-made head and this taste for impossible challenges. He has crossed the Atlantic, landed in the Silicon Valley and very quickly, it became found in the heart of the cyclone. Tesla first alongside Elon Musk and then Lift where he was in charge of operations. Then it is Masayoshison himself, the boss of Softbang who called him so that he can come and shake up the start-ups of the Vision Fund. So, he will find himself at the head of Get Around. SO inevitably when you work with Musk or Masson, you learn to no longer be afraid you're welcome and he's going to tell us everything that he lived. He has lots of anecdotes to tell share, truths that we hear never in France. So without further ado

0:45 wait, place to Karim Bosta in Of the Record. I realize that it was going to be a car that would change the automobile. [Music] Before starting this episode, I wanted to take a little moment to tell you talk about our partner contau. We love them at Silicone Carnet. It is It's true that when you start your business, you don't want to worry with the French administration. I am been there and conto takes care of everything for you. Whether it is the accompaniment legal, the capital deposit, your

1:32 pro account, you even have a tool integrated billing and that makes your pre-accounting. All of this is 100% managed online. At this moment, creation business is offered. You just pay the mandatory Lego fees. It's great simple, it's fast, it's effective. I really invite you to go through them if you you are about to create a micro-business, an SAS or an SRL. Besides, a 1 in 5 companies choose Conto. That is called conto.com and it is written q O t.com. Hello Karim, hello Carlos. Thanks for come and say hello to us here in the SCON valley where you no longer live Besides. Uh well thank you for the invitation. Glad to be back here again. Indeed, I moved 2 years ago. years. I am now in Miami. Miami after spending 15 years, almost 16 in the valley. Let's go back a little bit

2:18 on your journey uh before dive into tech and this madness from Silicon Valley. Well, you are a inget square what. You come out of telecom Paris. Where is Karim Bouard from? He comes from where? Uh, what's his background? As a kid you were a good student. Yeah. So me yeah, I've always been pretty good student. Uh, I didn't really know. what I wanted to do. So I asked myself let yourself be guided by the classic route French uh scientific terminal, prep scientist, engineering school. So to At that moment, I realized that I also wanted to do others things. So I did an MBA and then

3:04 I started for by I started to work for big companies Proctoring Gumble, General Electric. In the end, I have always worked only for French boxes uh American, never for boxes French, except for a small interim at a moment. Since the beginning, in fact, I liked the culture, the way of working Americans. I liked it J because well, it was a group enough until 2010, it was one of the most respected boxes, admired by the world. It's a bit super innovative. Yeah. Uh so there was lots of things to do, lots of trades to learn. So for me, It was perfect. Not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. Uh In fact, it was them who led me on on tracks of So I touched a bit of everything in many industries different. I did medical, security, industrial, uh all the

3:51 types of possible positions. And it is embossing for American boxes that you wanted to come here in the silicone valley. How did it go? ? In fact, uh, in fact, at the beginning I had don't want to come to Silicon Valley but being at home it was 6 I was 7 years old and I was there in Europe so I was turning a little on different boxes on different positions he regularly told me, well if you want to continue you will have to come to the US and J it's a group industrial with large centers almost everywhere in the US most of the time in places that aren't super sexy or uh Tennessee the center Milwaukee things like that. So to every time he came and I said "No, Well, it's not going well there, I don't feel it."

4:37 And then one day they came with a proposal for they had bought a small start-up based here and they told me "There we have need help because in fact this this doesn't work great." And since I had the habit of declining, I say "Yeah, I don't think so, I'll look but I don't think. And in fact, it turns out that at this At that time, my wife was also working for an American company based in Saint- Rossé, so in the south of the valley in tech too. Yeah. Yeah. And So there, we said to ourselves "Ah, maybe that there it might be interesting to look How old are you at that time? At that time I was 35 36. So you have children already? No, no children. No. OK. No. So the

5:23 The move was pretty easy, though. The move was quite easy. It was just is it that we want to do this passage ? And so we said, "OK, we can, we can." try". But we are leaving, we was uh so we weren't sure and so we left with a belt, suspenders, uh life jacket and everything in terms of expat contract, return clause, if we wanted to go home, if that meant didn't like it, in fact What. That is to say in the conditions perfect by being Yeah. times, if We don't like it, we go home and we don't insist. H And in fact, at the end of 3 months ago, I had the clause removed that I had added uh on You are said "I'm going to stay." Yeah, because we saw it right away in fact, we liked it, that was it, it ticked the box all cases. What did you like about it?

6:09 here when you arrived? This is this is the personal part or is it the professional part? It's both. This is both the point From a professional point of view, it's moving, that's it go fast, finally it's it's fluid, it's there is innovation, you feel it especially at the time It's pulsing, you feel that something is happening things what. This is where you need to be. Yeah, as they say. And from a point of view Personally, life is great. pleasant. You meet people, the conditions, the material, The weather is nice, not too hot. Uh finally It's yeah. clings to all boxes and you arrived at because the gap culturally, it is absolutely colossal between France and in particular Silicon Valleyley. I'm not even talking about the UNITED STATES. Uh, me 15 years later, I

6:57 still continues to Yeah. Yeah. soul surprise. Uh what was for you the most difficult when settling in here in the S convallé? Ah there is there is has several things. So I'll tell you a story which I tell next. Something that shocked me when I arrived, first day, my new job in the box over there uh that I am shown around, to meet the people and so on. I do two or three things and around 12:30, I see the girl who had guided me into the offices and I tell him "How is it going for lunch?" And she said to me, "What is What do you mean?" I say, "Well, I know No, what are you doing for lunch?" She says, "Well, if you brought your lunchbox, you can there is a cafeteria downstairs you can go eat there.

7:43 Otherwise, there may be restaurants but 2 3 km but I don't know what. But I don't know. And so there, I I realize that there is no shared lunch break as a team as we're used to it in France. So this it was something uh that I I still don't get used to it. That annoys me. maybe still need to take a break to take a break and This is an opportunity to discuss. Finally one something else. So that I am I am not sure I don't know if it is American American or if it's silicone valley. I find that when people here have a little difficult to disconnect. It is that they are still 24 all the time 7 days a week business. So. Uh so you always have this thing when you meeting people. The notion of friendship in fact, it is still linked to your

8:30 your job and what interest they can have to have to know you and to know you frequent in relation. There you go, that's it. Tru uh so that, I never used to it. Even in Miami, it's where is it different? Miami? No, Miami, it's it's different. So, it is relational, it's not directly transactional. Hm hm. But finally, it is something else. It's another one different mentality. But I find more relaxed and the people more Yeah. more relaxed, more in the good mode if It's the weekend or the evening, we do the party and we don't talk about work. So one day you have the opportunity to join Tesla. Yeah. H well the dream No ? Uh so for me uh yes, in

9:17 It's been several years since I was thinking about it and it's both uh the heaven and hell after. But uh actually when you got there, you still said it was a job dream. Yes, it was it was really the thing I wanted to do. In fact, this what had happened, I have When leaving there, you you said "I just got out of one "A real pain." No, no, I never have regretted for a second what I had what I had done with the time that I had spent there. But no, it was really what i want what i wanted to do. I had uh from 2012 when Tesla started to market the ModS, it was the it had become quite the fashionable thing quickly. I was in Palo Alto. You arrived at Tesla, we are in what year ? 2000. End of 2015. End of 2015. It is

10:02 not the Tesla we know today eh. It's a Tesla that completely There are many questions about the Tesla's industrial capacity. Uh the promises as usual, they are extraordinary. We have an entrepreneur which at this time is still smelling of holiness in relation to power Democrat and uh and who a kind of promise like that from an entrepreneur new generation uh liberal but progressive. But many doubts from the market when you have the capacity to Tesla of of of full thread of responding to the promises that Elon Musk did. Then we have the image, we to this guy who is a genius who tweets, who

10:50 uh who throws cars in space. So you lived behind the scenes Uh, you came home with glitter in the eyes and then very quickly you I said I understood that it was going to be different from what I imagined. Yeah. So, I had a little preview before the interviews while meeting Ilon and all this, especially the first time that I met him where there was this finally you felt the determination at the same time kind of we're going to walk on the moon. It is it is the kind of So he told me the first The time I saw him, he said to me, let's go Let's build the biggest one biggest box in the world. The way

11:36 which he says, is that we are going to build uh actually, we're going to revolutionize the automobile, we will impose the electric. As we will be early, we will be the biggest box of automobile and if we are the biggest car box, chances are that we are the biggest box in the world. So he says it quite quite simple. Uh and then he starts listing the things that need to be done and each one is something that seems impossible. So you know before you arrive that it's there, you You're not recruited yet, eh. No, it is it's you know it's going to be something It's a really hard thing, but it's impossible to imagine uh the rhythm, the intensity the intensity uh that there is in this

12:21 in that box at that time. It is absolutely amazing. How much do you make? interviews at Tesla before returning ? How does it work? So, it was not uh because it's a box in hypergrowth uh enough not very well organized. Uh so before meeting uh Ilon, I think I meet 15 people different different who all tell me "Yeah, we want to recruit you thing but every time he you had to see Bilul there and then we discuss and then and each time that was even more because everything the world is hyper passionate. you meeting people who are uh in whom describe to you what they do. You say "But yeah, actually that's what I want to do." And 15 people in a time lapse of what? Over a month, something like that. So basically you pass

13:08 already your life at Tesla there. There you go, it's That. Especially since at the time, I had I had broken my ankle. Uh so I was uh finally in in a wheelchair on crutches. On crutch. And uh the Freemand factory site is one thing is kilometers and kilometers. So I made some kilometers in this with your crutches and Tesla to try to get back on crutch at Tesla. Yeah in I did have a you know what we call the scooters n scooter there you put your knee on a little troller. So, I met Ilon the first time with my little scooter there. So by wandering like that in the

13:55 in the premises. First impression of meeting with Ilon. So before you meet, in fact there is a preparation, I spent 2 hours with his chief of staff and the person in charge HR to prepare to prepare me for what I was going to to suffer through what was going to happen. Ah yeah but that's that's that's that's usual, that is to say it is organized. So that depends on Elon's step. Musk like that. It depends on the type. maintenance that it is just for to validate. Apparently, there is a little of that but there it is because well that way of behaving in the finally in an interview and uh confusing, disconcerting. So yes, me after the people I was passing through interview with him, I have the same feeling, I

14:41 I prepared it, it was necessary Then, What exactly did they tell you before? of of So, so it is necessary to arrive so there is no schedule. So, there is no schedule, it can be that It can be shifted by 5, 6, or 7 hours. So, you have to, uh, there is no preamble, there is no hello, How are you ? Things we do normally it starts directly. And so, there are several phases. First first 4 minutes, he tries to assess whether it will stick. SO there, it only plays on the impression. It's animal. Is this the no one has the intensity, the strength of conviction? Do I feel it? What ? It's it's Yeah, it's purely intuitive, instinctive. And so if you don't pass these four

15:27 first minutes, in fact, he has a little thing where he makes a sign, someone comes, finally the secretary comes in and says there is an emergency and we stops there. That's how it is pass. And so he prepares for that. They you say here, you have to know. So the first four minutes are very important. Otherwise if you Don't pass, it's over. Afterwards, there is a something else 10 minutes away. There, it is he has had a little more content and so in this phase, in fact, it don't ask a lot of questions. In general, he asks one or two questions, but it goes super deep. Uh and besides, it's something that I I have I used, that we used after because I realized that indeed the best way to know someone, it wasn't to do it uh the story of his entire journey, of everything what he did. it's actually

16:12 take an example of something that he did but to go super far and so basically you spend all the the interview to talk about this thing on which he finally tells you and he is curious, he asks questions, he he asks a lot of questions. But so on the second part of if 6 7 minutes to arrive at 10 minutes there he estimates. Is there really the subject that I want to explore? Yes. No. If it is, if it is, well that's it stops there. If yes, then he has It has emergency exits. So, 4 minutes, that's it. 10 minutes away. And after 10 minutes, it can last 2 hours, it can last it can last so generally half an hour and 3/4 of hour or more depending on the affinities and the thing. So we prepare you for that because

16:58 that it is then the other thing is when when which one are you being prepared for so it is necessary to arrive it is very impatient, he has he has a duration of attention span which is very very reduced because he thinks about worthless things. So if you start talking and you takes 10 minutes to explain something, you lost it. So we have to get to speak to capture his attention to capture his attention with enough content to keep him focused. Uh and that's when you explain that, you say "OK but how do I do it?" So there you go, you were freaked out it was that suddenly you were No because that I said to myself no, I said to myself if it works great, if it doesn't too bad. I would have just met this guys and then there you go. No, none

17:43 no stress. So tell us about it first four minutes. Elen comes home in the room. Does he serve you? hand ? No. No physical contact? No. No. Visually, he looks at you in the eyes. Uh, he looks at you with a look piercing which finally you feel this this intensity there. No smile. No, he don't smile. No, that's not cool. No, there is no there is no kindness what. There is nothing there is nothing of that. What does he say then? So he starts by explaining his vision. So we're going to build the biggest box revolutionary, the biggest box of the world. Uh, and there he says to me, here it is he was recruiting me for the position of

18:29 responsible uh after-sales service customer service. Yeah you're going to be in charge of something which is very complicated. A little sharp. Yeah. a little sharp. Yeah. And so he tell me we're going to uh global customer service eh. You enter recruiting for take care of all customer service global. Yeah. So he tells me we're going so to do that to get to that my ambition: better customer service the history of the automobile and the industry and to do that uh so we built all from scratch. I need to find the best in the world to do That. And while he's talking, I have this kind of my education, my training a little bit to the French. You know, we always have

19:14 tendency to compared to Americans, we don't have naturally trust us. We does not naturally put forward by report a little imposter syndrome little. So. Yeah, totally. SO while he says that, I say to myself but in so here is a guy who wants to do the biggest box in the world, it looking for the best in the world and me if I think I'm in regional D4. Yeah. So what the hell am I doing here? Yeah. Do you doubt yourself? Yeah. And so I actually say to myself, well, it's nice to be got there but finally people like that finally he surely has hundreds and so I'm preparing to tell him that or to tell him and so he stops there and I tell him but actually well I I'm passionate about Tesla and all that but In fact, I don't know anything about cars.

20:00 by telling myself perhaps that like that It gives me an escape because that I am so in fact you were looking for also perhaps a way out yourself what. Yes, because I was arriving not to tell me I'm going to sell myself wanted you're there and he actually says to me well that It's great because I don't want [ __ ] because if I take someone who who has already driven a car he will reproduce industry recipes and I want to break everything. So I want someone who knows nothing. That's it. This is the moment where you think you spent the 4 minutes. It is at this moment that it is with this answer there. I think for him, but I wasn't yet, uh, me I still felt like I was in my shift uh and then something happens so he tells me

20:46 says his thing again, I'm looking for the best ones of the world, all the people I recruit, the best, the best of the best. And there, I say to myself in fact what is it that look for ? And I see the profile that we all have a little if we have worked in the United States with Americans, the self-confident American who has always Since he was 5 years old, he has been told that he was the best. At 7 years old, he started to do PowerPoints and stuff in class and and so he has this assurance natural. And there, it annoys me to think that it is a guy like that or a girl like that who will take this position. And so, I rebel against this, against this this thing where I want but no, I refuse. It's not And so that's where I I I say to myself no but then we will go so long

21:31 worse, it doesn't work but in any case I I'm not going to leave it, uh I'm not going to leave this position to someone other and especially not to one of his Americans. So that's pride also French, the and then a form of panache too. not to let yourself go not to let yourself get down and and to even if the battle is lost uh I I will fight with honor here without giving up. Without lay down their arms because some seconds after before I was about to do and then no it's not possible. Yeah I refuse. In these four first minutes, do you think that it's him who talks a lot? Yeah he's talking about 3 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. So he looks at you and what does he look for ? look for your expression bodily, I think. Yeah. He he

22:17 try to see at once if he will have control over you. No, or is it that Are you scared? No. Uh, maybe. In actually, I think he wants to see uh of the task, hey I'm talking about, huh. Yeah. Yeah. There is an expression that he use it, it's hardcore. He wants some hardcore people, that is to say they are at bottom to bottom who who don't give up, who who are fully committed. a bulldog. Yeah. And so he's looking to see that. Is he feel it? Hm hm. And then it is is it that he manages to see the proof that Are you someone like that? The fact that you are French, it matters or it doesn't matter completely [ __ ] up? He doesn't care completely. What image does he have? French people, by the way? Takes for accounts? I think he's okay [ __ ]. There are quite a few very good ones

23:04 engineers at Tesla. So I think that he knows that he has a lot but he don't look so much at the pedigree. Uh They don't care about diplomas. Uh hm h so uh there are quite a few French people who have been successful, which have worked well. So I think he has an OK image, but it's not an important criterion. for him. Second part of the interview, we are in 10 minutes. Yeah. So, what is the subject? He asks me to talk about something very difficult, a very problem difficult that I solved. So I He the don't know huh. He knows you, he has not your resume. there is there is there is a brief in fact which is given to him before hm h uh quite detailed on the 15 interviews previous. So we had prepared that. He had me the

23:51 Guys, you told me about this, I think. That's what he needs, he who goes interest him. And it didn't fail. It was this topic. So that was it. What was it? subject ? It was on what I had actually done in the in the start-up of I had helped to get back up. It is a box that made the systems explosive detection security for luggage at airports. So quite specific, quite technical. They had huge problems. So their customer, it is the TSA of the agency of airport security. So there was huge quality problems. THE product didn't work, they were threatened with exclusion from all calls for tenders from all airports in the world. So you have a little pressure What. And so there was a lot of stuff

24:38 to do to solve this from a point of view product view, customer relationship quality and I did that in 2-3 months. Uh so I told everything and there we spent is that there is a first step where it said "OK, I'm interested in coming back in the in the in the subject and after We talked for 45 minutes. Didn't he know anything about this thing?" No, he he knew nothing but he poses asked the right questions. Yeah. 50 questions what. Yeah. And in fact its technique which is really something thing, I was saying it's something that I have retained and I use since uh it's that it really allows to see the usurpers because It's very hard to hold on because he's going

25:23 very very far into the subject. SO he will tell me if I say I have a problem of quality, he will tell me it was What is the quality problem? I say well that makes the system it's a it's a tomograph with a rotating table where it there is an X-ray that rotates, it must rotates at a certain frequency with a maximum deviation of 6 microns and you look why 6 microns? I I don't understand. Finally you see, he goes the engineer who will challenge you to really check if you master if you have really done what you said that what you say you had do. No, but it's super interesting. because maybe people who go live this experience and there you are in giving us a masterclass. How to pass an interview recruitment ? How to get through with Elon Musk? Yeah. So in the story in

26:10 made me it's even more special what happened is that there was a moment after 30 40 minutes its sa secretary just gave him a message and he says to me "Wait I have to that I look at something. There is a message that comes to him and I learned after it was a message from SpaceX. There was a problem with a launch which was planned uh the following night or something like that. So he multitasks, he changes context. But what makes that the continuation of the discussion in made it was more completely concentrate. So we stayed for another 1 in total hour 1 hour and they called me back after a few days later telling me in there was a problem It's just that he doesn't remember. Yeah. he does not remember the rest of your crazy discussion because he was in

26:57 his SpaceX thing so you have to come back. So I'm entitled to a second one session. So actually he's not that smart. What. Well, I think there are cases where, uh and then there he really wanted to be sure and then he says "I can't get over it memory I'm not sure it's necessary it's necessary it's necessary that he comes back that we continue the discussion. So you come back So I come back and I'll do it for 1 hour and a few. And this time, the second time, you go in you uh with more apprehension that the first or on the contrary not, you said "This interview with Elon. Uh uh no, because you are you are not at all, not at ease. You are You are still very disconcerting. SO Yeah. So it's not a part of pleasure. No, I knew what

27:43 wait for me in relation to the first times but it's still it's when same Yeah. Yeah. So second interview uh more than 4 minutes there it is finished. Yeah. No, it's for continue. And there, on the other hand, we have started to he started to tell me about this who of what he wanted to do and how I saw things. And one of the things who was important to him because so Tesla was built on the customer relations, uh making a product uh beautiful and then an experience customer uh who makes people adhere to the thing. And after a picture around that which was done at the time we had uh so me when I am when

28:30 I arrived the box had sold 60,000 cars, but we had millions of supporters worldwide entire. These are people who said he This box must succeed was waiting for someone who had passed pre-orders. There you go it was just about the picture and the image she was sent back by well what we this which we were talking about and so on but we did zero marketing. There was no advertising. If it was muque le marketing. Yes, but we didn't spend any money. zero dollars in marketing. There was a marketing department elsewhere. No No, the only thing, there was a little two people uh who were doing the events when we were doing presentations of new newcomers vehicles or things like that. But No, no marketing. One day he had a fit because

29:15 that we had we did the analysis of marketing and automotive costs it is generally one of the brands classics spend between 1500 and 2000 dollars per sold in marketing and we we had 6 dollars and he said we thought he was going to would scream with joy saying it's it's incredible one one finally six compared to 2000 is incredible per car and it said uh where did you find it spend 6 dollars? This is unacceptable. It didn't suit him either. 6 dollars It was already $6. He had said zero so Ah yeah. Oh yeah. The guy is extreme anyway. Yeah. So you know you're hired right away after the second interview. It's him Who tells you or not? It's a little

30:02 After. It reminds me it ends one little bit of this stuff is pudding second interview. You don't really know. No. So there is more next step. There is no no the second second ends very very well in the sense that he gets up, he thanks me so he does from time to time there were gestures finally things like that which made which even disconcerted the people around because you have to know that the interviews, there is no office closed, it's an open space, it's the coffee machine practically what. So there are almost people around What. So we leave him one little bit of space. So he doesn't have someone next to him but two offices further away, there is someone. It's a huge open space. Etth and so he sees him get up and shake my hand saying goodbye.

30:49 First physical contact. Yeah. And so there they told me well in fact so it is good it's good. He never did that or It's super rare for him to do that. So you know it's good. So after we have they confirmed a few days later. In Silicon Valley, we are used to it to say that time is money. And yet, in France, there are still thousands of small business leaders companies that continue to lose hours each month to make their peace, manage leave or recover all their employee's expense reports. That's why I wanted to talk to you. from Payfit. Payfit is the solution French Peace and Security Management human resources. In less than 2 hours, you can make the first pay. Everything else follows. social declaration, personnel management, HR, everything is centralized, automated and secure. Pfit, that's more than 18,000 companies

31:36 clients. So, if you want too stop wasting time with the administrative side and focus on your real job, I invite you to go do it a tour on pfit.com. And then there, you told me something incredible, it's that you sign your H contract, you are recruited, you arrive on Monday with your Tesla badge. Yeah. Who passes. Yeah. So proof that it's good. Uh, you be part of the team and there you you are convinced that you are recruited. Good, you discover your workplace, your colleagues and so on and so forth. Then you cross paths with Elon Muskel days later. H And then there, you understand that in fact you you're not recruited, what. You are not yet recruit actually testing. You are recruited but you

32:21 is being tested. Yeah, that's it. How so happened? explain this to us. Uh so there is a meeting of a meeting of crisis because there was a problem of quality on the fashion at the time and so I'm invited, I came to arrive, it had been 3 days since I was there so I'm invited in this meeting, there was Ilon uh and so there he says it's the Qata, if we don't solve this problem, we're dead uh in 3 weeks. Because basically, if we solved not the problem, the car was selling more. if the car sold more, uh it was the end of So good uh total crisis meeting of finally, all hands on deck, we must absolutely that we solve this thing and no one, finally it was a bit of chaos no one really knew what to do. SO I was there, I listen, I try to understand who is who does what, what

33:07 what is happening, what is the problem and etc. And after that, I have his chief of staff who me who calls me or sends me an email in saying wants to see you. And as I had it not seen since the interviews we had not spoken in this meeting, I say to myself "Ah well actually, he wants he wants me welcome." And so I arrive and he says nothing. He doesn't say Hello, nothing. He told me in English but so he says I am super super worried there. Uh Since you arrived, I haven't seen any difference. Uh, you didn't do anything. Uh You have to understand, it's not like that's what's happening here. Uh and there he looks at me and I But so I

33:54 he told me he must have confused me with someone because it was literally on Thursday I had arrived Monday or Wednesday for Monday, something like that. What does it mean? say ? I didn't see any difference. It is and you tell him you tell him no but you know that I finally it's it's my 3rd day. And he said to me there while switching to mode rude what finally but F F word F word Uh, I don't give a [ __ ]. You are here you have to shake everything the thing. Yeah you gotta shake it up the whole thing. There, I don't see that it's happening pass. And so there I started to say to myself "Well, okay, uh, what do I do?" And actually, I understood afterward, it's a thing that regularly did, a

34:41 kind of test crash test in fact. And so, I decide to tell him "Well listen, OK, well maybe, but let me explain what I have in my 3 days there." There you go, thing, that's the plan. This is what that I will do. And uh actually, I'm not going to show you any results in 3 days, but in 3 weeks, that's it the three things I would have done. And so there he calms down completely and there we discuss the future, strategy and all that. You're actually an [ __ ]. SO Uh, I don't know why. Uh it's a [ __ ] behavior anyway like That. It's a behavior. So, there is always the justification that does that because he can't afford it to have weak links because if there are weak links, the box

35:26 It's so difficult what there is to TO DO. So there is always a justification. And you, do you take that? Yes, because all the people who are there in fact, we admit that and we adhere to it made to the objective uh the objective of the box, to the objective so uh so we accept these these things like that by saying "Yes, well actually that it seems it seems it's hard but it is normal, right." There you go. Yeah. Somewhere And then you accept it until moment when you no longer accept it and when you accept it anymore, that's when you decide to leave. Actually, that's it, that's it relationship with Elon. We'll come back to that. You will give us some other examples and some other anecdotes, but

36:11 he's not always there. So he makes slightly flashy passages, dazzling like that. Yeah. Yeah. What's the atmosphere like with the other colleagues? It's hyper focused, hyper intense, hyper in fact it is stimulating but there are mutual aid, there is there is there is of empathy because there we see that there is doesn't have any at all with So just Yeah. So, uh, actually, that's the miracle of as he is so without empathy, we are forced to overcompensate by saying we are we are together in fact. And so in the end, it's the box less political than what I saw because

36:56 that you can't afford the little ones stuff to try to push your tone personal case in the hope of That is impossible. It doesn't work. It is impossible. There is no barony. No, It's impossible. In fact, it is a autocracy what. Uh well actually it is there is a leader and everyone then we have responsibilities for things, but there is no time you are there to tell yourself "Ah, I would like to recover such organization." Finally all the stuff that there are in many boxes. Uh because in fact everyone says "My success, if the company succeeds, in done, I succeed too." And if I put my interests staff in advance, it's bound to go so in fact it is paradoxically it is

37:42 The most pleasant thing is the best the best the best work environment because there is never a low blow, there is never because we don't have the time and in fact you are in a constant state solve problems. There is a real trust finally between people and you have to trust everything the world. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a little the things you find in the in emergency situations where there must be mutual aid and all that, but it is linked to the fact that we have this mission to accomplish, these problems to solve uh which are but It's unimaginable the number of things every day that you have that falls above, you have to find how get out of it. So precisely, uh, we have

38:27 talked about the energy level that this guy prints. Hm hm. Uh and of the pressure he puts, but also the ambition he has. Hm hm. But we don't have talked about genius because often when Elon is described as a genius. Uh uh was there a time when you really stuck where you said to yourself wow, the guy is actually uh super smart ? Yeah. Yes, there were. There were some. The one that sums up well for me the thing, that's when I first time that I got into a Model 3. Yeah. because we were working on it, we saw her but but first time that we have a pre-production model that is running

39:17 and the boss of engineering offers me to go up with him to try it and there I go up in the car and I realize that it is This was going to be a car that was going to change the automobile. And so there is Yon's mark everywhere in this thing. The design, the hyper-aggressive choices of simplification of the dashboard machine of technological choices of simplification of architecture, software integration everywhere, uh the choices, uh, physical, so there handling, acceleration, so there is his mark everywhere everywhere. And there I say to myself "Ah yeah,

40:03 It's still, uh, it's incredible." To say that it is not simply a visionary, it translates into the execution. So. Yeah. And there you are inside with choices that he pushed against all odds because we say so example something that we find in all Tesla which is a choice of Elon Musk who is uh a little remembered uh so there are two things. There is the hypersimplification of the architecture of the car. That is to say that most cars are made with subsystems and each subsystem is managed by a team, an organization. often it is outsourced with suppliers, Valeo, Bosches and so on. The manufacturer, the builder automobile, it is an assembler of subsystem

40:49 and he from the beginning said "No, no, it's a platform that we master completely Apple in design." There you go, Exactly. Uh and in doing so, we can simplify things in an extraordinary way. So we create this kind of vehicle platform where all subsets, to give you an idea, it's the same the same electrical architecture and transmission of information which manages the engine, the system that we calls infotainment from the radio, the screen and so on, the button for roll down the windows. And so with in fact the same software, the same tu

41:35 can decide to change what pressure should be applied to lower your window or configurable change the car's acceleration by software over the air. And so this kind of thing where people told him "But no, It's impossible to do that." And he insists, he insists, he insists, he manages to do it. And there you realize that it is revolutionary. Karim, maybe you will finally be able to explain to us why in the Tesla To open the glove box, you must go through the control screen in the Model 3. Yeah. And the Model Y because he had decided that it was necessary no button anywhere.

42:21 mechanical? How is nothing mechanical? Yeah, no Bah, actually it broke the mechanical but that's especially it broke the spell of the design that it wanted to have completely completely smooth. Yeah. Uh there is no handle either. Yes, That's annoying. Yeah. And and that is it things we fought over, finally all the time world why it's not much, we can put that. No. And you can do nothing TO DO. It's impossible to change. When he decided something, he rarely changes his mind. No, he can change your mind. Yeah. As long as it is not him who changed his mind, it's very very hard to change his mind because there is often a mixture irrational instinctive that you can't explain.

43:07 So this button story for open the glove box. You, you go use a rational trick by saying well It's still more practical to have the button to go to the menu. And he will say "Yes, but it's not handsome." And you can't, what are you can do? You can't do anything. OK. There is no more arguments. So. OK. You me I said while preparing this show that this genius that we see, we have the impression to see genius. Actually, he's a guy who just has convictions uh and then they are interpreted as genius, but He's above all a guy who doesn't give up of his idea. Yeah. And then it's also a rocket launcher, that is to say that we retains rockets that worked. Hm. But uh everything he does, he accepts

43:53 that it spits, what. That is to say that for a thing that works, there are nine things that are going to mess up. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not surprising. So and he manages in fact all these boxes as he manages SpaceX. Yeah, there are launches, that. works, it doesn't work. We learn and then we rectify it the next time. That means he doesn't expect 100% of success despite everything. Yeah. So he is very far from the French mentality which wants everything to be planned. That failure is not and does not make part of the equation. There, failure is Completely yeah. Uh actually, we often said, he said "We want to be we have to be so fast that we have time to try 10 things which do not work,

44:41 fall on the 11th who walks and during this time our competitors, they will be still wondering how we do." It's that they have they even have didn't start first. They will be just wondering how we do. So in his head, that means be here hyper of a speed. Yeah. extraordinary and sometimes so it put that it was we were doing things that were beyond the logic finally where you say but it is It's just not possible so we did changes to the cars. SO in the automobile generally works by model year, that is to say that you all the years you make changes on a on a model you are the 2023 model 2024 with some modifications. you put all your changes in this

45:26 in this release in fact, in this new version. And we made changes several times a day, software, hardware on the car. So that means there was none there were very few cars that were exactly the same in fact. We introduced components thing uh we made changes which which were not fully tested because that we didn't have time and we said well anyway if it doesn't work It doesn't matter, we'll change it later. So. So depending on when you bought your car, maybe you didn't have one necessarily the same you had the same model but maybe not the same components inside. So. Actually no, you obviously didn't have it because changed so often. Uh to a moment, I had we had tried to count because afterwards it was necessary you have to be able to manage the parts of spare parts and all that and we had counted

46:13 I think it was 16,000 different configurations that were uh in circulation in circulation then that there was uh at the time there was that three Model S and 3 models uh but there had 16,000 different configurations with changes of uh component So these are things like that. Why he said this question of speed of being able to be on cycles faster development, decrease the costs, finally lots of lots of reasons. Uh but including doing things completely out of the ordinary nobody does uh doesn't do things like that in the industry. Who is wearing the We feel that he

46:59 carries the vision, but then uh it happens How does it go from there? It is there is the product team, uh, it has numbers of uh No, there aren't any product team. Uh, that's another one. particularity. There are project teams but no product team. Another one peculiarity is that it has one quality, there is the vision which is ambitious and so on and then he has an ability to translate vision into a strategy and the strategy to make it super simple. hypersam strategy, that means priority for everyone world. So if we are 30,000 employees at the time, the 300 people,

47:44 is to take out the Model 3 and bring it to machine production volume. That's all. Whatever you do, every every time you spend working for Tesla, it must be supported this strategy there. Yeah. So that's it makes things super simple because you don't need to make committees planning thingamajig. Uh what do you need to do to launch the Model 3 and reach one million vehicles of vehicles sold? all the world. Well, that's the plan. action, what needs to be done is hyper uh so after that, there are thousands of projects and so on, but it's super easy to design and have everything the world in the same uh

48:31 on the same objective. But there, I have I want to ask you a question, it's that this objective is very clear. H but for example, leave security. Yeah. That's a problem there. So, if we begin to ask ourselves questions about security, yeah. He had to ask himself these questions security issues. Yeah. So, we how he understood if someone would come and say to him, "Yeah, we will actually launch but there we have still a big security concern." Well, we were establishing principles and once again great ability to simplify the taking of decision for everyone. On a subject like that, we said if someone said "But what is it what we do about this problem of security?" Very simple reasoning. What do you think will happen? pass if ever there is a problem

49:18 safety that makes cars unreliable, there are people dying ? What do you think will happen? pass ? Well, we're dead. The box has no future, it's over. SO What are we going to do? We are going make sure there is no problem security. So immediately, this thing goes back up. Uh at the time, there was the Takata airbag problem and I have managed this thing from the very beginning when I was arrived. I didn't even know what it was a collection but someone explain to me, I'm told, there's a reminder manufacturer, manufacturer recall and we me and so I am told here, there is this problem, we put airbags of this Japanese brand Takata. there are problems after a few years with humidity, it risks exploding. And so with this principle, we could not take any risk that could be fatal for us, uh, if there was

50:06 had an accident, I decided to execute the recall immediately then that we didn't have money for it TO DO. We were terrible for the box at that time. But we did it, we were the Tesla was the first and only one in fact to having executed it 100%, we do it in 4 months or something like that. And when you look in France, right now, it's finally exploding. Not bad pun Yeah. Uh because we tried so there was uh But when you make this decision, you kill it take it with him or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. precisely with this this uh all of a sudden there is there is a criterion, a risk that passes above of the primary objective. Yeah. And he

50:51 understands it. And he understands it. And no only he understands it, but in fact he says uh why do you want to do it in 4 month ? This is unacceptable, this is too slow, it must be done in a month. Okay, OK. There is an incredible anecdote that you told me which is an anecdote about the Model Y, the Model Y. Yeah. of Tesla where there uh you present uh the model Y to Elon Musk? What year is it now? ? Uh, that's 2018, early 2018. So it is due out in 2019 and so this is the development phase. So the Model Y is presented to Elon Musk internally. Yeah. everyone is super proud of present this model because it is a incredible job what to achieve and then it is you must be

51:39 super proud of you. And there he look at this model Y tells you what it is this [ __ ] what? Yeah what is it? that shocks him? What shocks him is that there was a steering wheel. [Laughs] It's 2018. Yeah, there was a steering wheel and he says but uh because since 2016, he was constantly doing, he announced that the car was going to be fully autonomous at the end of the year. Uh and so he says well it's completely stupid, we'll take her out next year or the year after, I I don't know 2019 or 2020 anymore. H but so he said it's it's it's it's completely silly. It's no use. Uh, it's used for Nothing. We will be 100% autonomous. I

52:25 I don't want to see this stuff anymore. So the engineers explain but no but This is what we will not be approved. He says I want I don't care about you take this thing away from me. I don't want it anymore see. If I see that again I'll fire everyone. So uh It's crazy. But what is really interesting in this anecdote, it is that many people say about Elon Musk when he makes his announcements, we can draw a parallel with by example I'm going to Mars in 2028, huh. He actually really believes it. He believes it really what. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a fuss, no, it's convinced. Yeah. So with this Model Y, you present the car to her, she must come out in 2020. He said that the Cars would be self-driving by then.

53:11 So he aligns the company for that she is, he believes it. Yeah, except that you know very well that it is that it will never happen. So the engineers decide to have two two versions, one with and one without the steering wheel until the moment. You have yourself in fact that you told him yes yes, there has no problem getting rid of the Yeah. Yeah. of the problem what Elon. But you have maintained two lines of of production. A No no, it was just it was on it was on designs so yeah. So it lasted I think 4-5 months. until they realize that it was going to take much longer. So there, he asks, he says "Ah, we must even if we add the steering wheel." So there was the Ah yes. SO, How does that work? When he realizes that he was wrong, that is to say that and there, it is not said

53:57 "I wasted 4 or 5 months for the company." No, that's it. There is no feeling, there is just we have to we have to do that. And so you in the submarine, you had maintained a version with steering wheel that he was not aware of. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't see that. Yeah. Yeah. And uh and you you him you said well yes, we will we will do in so we're going to put a steering wheel back on, there is No problem. Except that it was he was already there at the wheel. But yeah, but that's an example but there is constantly had things like that because you are obliged to so he constantly sets goals uh unattainable some of which you manage to reach taken by miracle finally of of of

54:44 of incredible feat. But often you don't succeed because It's just unfeasible, impossible. So, you have to constantly get to navigate, to manage multiple types of multiple types of subjects and objectives which give uh while keeping the course on what is really important and what what must be done so that the box turns. So it's Tesla, that's it which is actually exhausting, is managing all that. So what is Tesla? This box is a miracle, it holds up miracle or not? There is it is a model unique uh which others should to be inspired. I think there are a lot, uh a lot to be inspired.

55:29 on all technological choices. So what I was saying about the simplification of architecture, software integration, that's what things that are really revolutionary whose now the new builders are inspired by uh y including the Chinese. on how to the mode of management. If you take off the layer a little inhuman management of the CEO, if you put that aside, the teams who who and the leaders, the managers who manage who manage the box arrive at actually do it at take advantage of what makes well, that is to say the simplification, the clarity

56:17 mobilizing everyone on objectives, to make everyone give the best. If I talk to all the people with whom I have worked or who have worked with me uh at Tesla, you will find, I think 99.99 % if you ask them what is in your entire career the moment you have gave the best of yourself, all the everyone will say it was that it was at home Tesla. So there is still something thing, you see, to get out the best of each. Uh so Now there are many things to do to draw from this experience there uh for the rest of the companies. Why do we care? goes from Tesla? So then there is lots of different ways to go

57:04 kick in the ass in the ass. That's how it turns, eh, that's how it turns regularly and then it turns into a game constantly and it's him who turns or that also turns into teams both but the frequency finally the most sustained is still him and he is able to because he he does meetings with teams of all levels there are no hierarchy of things like that. So if there is a subject, a problem, it said "We're going to summon all the people who are working on this topic." So you will have beginners, people experienced and he can decide that there has the attitude of someone in in this meeting that he doesn't like. He will say "No, you shouldn't do this person

57:49 that he remains. So let her stay." He told her don't say it to your face, it happens later. That happens right after. Or not, he can say to your face. If someone says something thing and he says "But it's completely What you're telling me is stupid." You do your luggage? Uh yeah, you have nothing to TO DO. SO It's rare. I don't have an example where he has does this on someone who is who is was cheating. Actually, it's more of a person said something, he said "But you are sure of what you're telling me there?" And if the nobody gets into this, that's it This is bad. Or defetism saying "Ah, we're not going to make it." That It's impossible. That's it. It is a cause for dismissal. Ah it is direct. Yeah. He actually has friends. Uh uh, I don't know about that in my personal life, I don't have any No but at work, you saw it

58:38 with a little bit of relationships friendly where you felt that he had need of of of of of No, there was there there have always been people, uh, in whom there had confidence but this confidence because there are moments when he is in mode in fact, depression or paranoia, finally There are some kinds of anxiety attacks do. And in those moments, there is some people who can who can approach it. Uh, not really friends, it's these moments there, there is there what? There is There is black smoke coming out. There are signals. We have a code with the secretary and the chief of staff.

59:23 He says "Wait a minute." Yeah. Yeah. And him, Is he aware of it? That I I don't know. Yeah, I don't know that. Well, you decide to leave Tesla, you stayed how long in the end? Almost 3 years. Yeah, still. Yeah. Yeah. Visibly already the first four minutes are complicated. So that's a lot of 4 minutes that. Yeah but I was actually I loved what I was saying just now the time. I loved every moment and then there was a moment when I found that I was uh good I had reached quite a few goals. I had made some great projects, I had learned a lot and I felt like I was happening, you know, it's like

1:00:08 if you have you won I don't know which Champions League tournament and you say there you go and you say to yourself in fact I'm going for a ride again, I uh and then I'll find myself in winter and then uh and then it's going to be ... spin, I actually said to myself the best time because I saw lots of people so there are both said the ways of leaving to be done turn to be in a depression in a kind of listen to Bernard here or decide to leave oneself. And I said to myself, I prefer leave before that things go less well and that I am

1:00:54 that I am asked to leave or that I be completely burned out. So there was a moment when I felt that it was the right time for that. SO uh but I put uh between the moment when I decided to leave and the moment I I told him about it, it took me a month to prepare because I saw around me the people who were leaving. Uh, it rarely went well. H that is to say that even someone who decides to leave often uh in the discussion he says "But in fact it's not you who called me who fires you." What is not is not very serious, it's just not pleasant. But we don't leave him. But yeah he has trouble with that he has trouble with that. SO I prepared my thing for a while months for it to go well. And it went really well. So you

1:01:41 since you came back, that means you have to go see Elon Musk and him explain listen Elon, I think it's the right time to me to leave. Yeah yeah. And and there also, we will have to argue. That is to say Yeah yeah. explain to him why. Yeah. I basically tell him, I have I have gave everything I had to give to Tesla and I think that from the moment, you will have a version of me that is a a little less good. So it's better that you that So he says "OK, I understand. Thank you for everything you have done." Thanks. Yeah. And then he gets up and he shakes my hand. And there was the rest of the staff outside. It was one with one there was a bay window. So he sees me talking about it one-on-one with

1:02:26 Ilon and Ilonne who gets up and who me shakes hands. It's a thing what's going on? Yeah because yeah it's very very rare. So they are said he persuaded him to stay and That's why he serves her by hand. Yeah, something like that. So you leave Tela and then you decide to leave a battlefield for join another battlefield. So still in the car business, yeah. uh you're going to dive into the war which opposes lift to Uber. Yeah. Uh, so there also eh, two boxes, two visions, two completely different styles. Yeah. So, it's funny because you join Lift, that means that when even you pass to the other side. That is to say that Liff is still the good guys. Yeah. You haven't been

1:03:12 join, they haven't completely got you perverted Tesla. There was still one left part of humanity in you. And there you go join the cool bobos of lift. What was that? It was a kind he needed you like that for a cure of kindness. No, actually, I had I didn't really have any preconceived ideas, but I had the opportunity to meet the CEO and I really go there thinking well, I go there almost out of politeness because that I didn't particularly want to go there and I meet him one Friday night in SF in SF and there I see someone who uh indeed a nice one finally who had looking nice and so we go Ah, that's interesting.

1:03:57 It won't necessarily be, uh, after the fact. uh no. not necessarily. Uh they are all twisted here in the city. Yeah, he It takes to be Yeah. to survive. Uh but so we spend 3 or 4 hours in his brainstorming office and so I love it. I say to myself, oh well here all of a sudden I go from you kind of fury of the dragon. Of the dragon. Yeah, that's it. And there, I say to myself "Ah but in fact, I can do something at the same time exciting but with people that's where there is this species, I had the impression of benevolence of What interests them about you? This is precisely the experience at at Tesla." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They

1:04:44 say "The guy survived Musk for so many years, so He is unbreakable." He is there is no that it's not just Kon Musk, it's the in fact there is there is the the the have participate in building scaler uh the box so with some with some crazy multiples what. Here are some stuff. I TLA I had I had built an organization of 9000 people in 18 months. Finally, you make stuff, you So uh so any box who has growth ambitions [Music] of scale want to have people who have done things like that. So that was it. That's it.

1:05:30 interesting because there is only in the Silicon Valley, you can find people Who have experienced this type of growth exponential with scales similar. Yeah. Yeah. With such crazy speeds. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Uh and that's true that it's rare. Yeah, we do stuff incredible in France even in the field of new technologies all that. But we don't have that scale. Yeah. We don't have this scale. Yeah. Yeah. When you arrive at home Liv, so you're going to be in charge of the So, well, I don't know about maintenance. recruitment, nothing to see there, there is more the story of the 4 minutes of the 10 minutes. No no no, it's cool. Uh yeah, you see less B I see the CEO on Friday evening, I pass instead of an hour, we 3 or 4 hours pass, I don't know anymore. And in the weekend, he sends me an offer. Uh and

1:06:17 you start almost on Monday practically. Are you going to be in charge of operations? Yeah. Well, basically you're number 2, What. No, no, no. I was so there was a CEO who was my former colleague of Tesla who after became my partner. He was hunting at home Tesla the Yeah yeah yeah. to the great Lady of Yon who Ah yes he hated. Ah yeah he was he was friends with Travis the boss of Uber. Well he is friends with no one we understood Elon. But he had chosen his side. His camp Was it Huber Elon? Yeah. Uh I know not. In any case, he couldn't see lift. Yeah, he couldn't see lift. It was What ? They were weak people

1:07:02 or they were nice so they were going No, I understood after. I have understood after. This is his story of robot taxi in fact. This is his ambition to make a fleet of in fact of replace Uber and Lift with its own autonomous car fleet. He must have to make a face elsewhere when when he heard you were going to lift. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was glad to be away when Yeah. He didn't call you or uh No but he has gets the messages across. He did pass on the message that he was not very happy. Afterwards, there are quite a few people also from my team who supported me joined and there he was really really angry. Yeah. At that moment, it is passed since but at that time, it wasn't it wasn't cool. You have still have relations with him? No. No. Hm hm. But indirect. And you

1:07:49 could I call him? Uh I could call him but I think not that he would pick up he would pick up. He may have changed his TV number, I don't know. Upon your arrival, uh, at your place Lift, uh What condition is Lift in? Uh they're fighting against Uber, it's number 2. Yeah. in a state of great motivation because it was in fact there were plenty of projects for catch up with Uert and me, that's it, actually which convinces me to go there. H Uit very bad reputation at this that moment. H Lift had a very good reputation and in addition they had the ambition to catch up with Uber, to enter on the stock market, that's not done and and and beat to beat Uversi. It happened

1:08:36 the IPO. Yes, but they have didn't catch up with Uber. That's not it. So when I was there actually, we had so quite a few initiative projects to uh to do that and we had a year a little more than a year where we had twice the growth rate of the and we went from 20% to 43% of par of market in a very short time, in a few quarters. So that was the excitement What. We are in the process of and then since then it has fallen back. And it's interesting because at Tesla, they have a guy like you and then others of the same caliber.

1:09:23 There is a management style that is completely different. Bah Lift is recruiting the same calibers since they are people coming out of Tesla. Yeah. Doesn't get the same result. So it is really a question. It's not simply a question of competence, it is necessary, it is indispensable, but we could think on paper then yeah that's really leadership what makes the difference is leadership and the culture, the DNA of the box. And there, precisely, it is interesting. Uh, that's something I only have I discovered and in the on which I got a bit stuck because I thought like you said, we take

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