Jinger, Jessa, & Joy: Duggar Sisters on Miscarriage, Baby Loss, and Grieving with Faith | Ep.52

0:00 We went in for our 20week um anatomy scan and gender reveal. I had actually talked to mama and I was like, "Hey, I don't know like I haven't felt the baby kick in a while." Like I had I had just started feeling at 17 weeks. She put the Doppler on my belly and like right away like her face just completely sunk. There were people that would try to rationalize like, "Oh, well, like somebody had said like, oh well, God probably just wants you to focus on the babies that you have, you know, or you know, like maybe God's telling you this is like it's time to be done." No. Today's episode we have Ginger's sisters, Jessa and Joy, on as guests, and it's going to be a heavy episode. Um, we talk about miscarriage, loss.

0:47 They go through their journey of losing their little ones at different stages in their lives. But it's going to be a powerful episode. Honestly, I think it might be the most powerful episode we've done that will really encourage and help so many. Yeah, it was super difficult to talk about a lot of those things, but we know that many of you have reached out and have said that you've experienced loss or miscarriage. And so, in that, we wanted to discuss this. and my sisters were so gracious to sit down with us and to share their heart. And I think that this definitely is going to be an episode that resonates with many. So, let's get into it. What's going on, guys? We're back for another episode, the Ginger and Jeremy podcast.

1:32 We are back. We're in Arkansas still. So, today we have two of my sisters, Jessa and Joy, on the podcast with us. And yeah, we're excited to have them on and we're going to be talking about a little bit of a heavier topic today. Um, and before we get into that though, we want to like get a quick update on where they are in life right now. Um, so Jess, what's happening in your life right now? Busy season, five kiddos, the oldest three in school now. And so, yeah, just living life day by day, trying to keep our head above water, it seems like. Yeah. Yep. And a little one due at the end of July. So exciting. We cannot wait to meet this

2:18 little one. It's amazing. Enjoy. What are you up to? It's a definitely a busy season. I've got the three kids. Gunnar just turned two, which is crazy. Crazy. Um, homeschooling the same. We're doing summer schedule now, but we've just been really busy with Austin's work and then just activities outside of that. Awesome. That's incredible. Well, you guys are both returning guests to the podcast, so thanks for coming back. Welcome back. Thanks for having us back on. Super fun. And like Jinger said, we did want to get into a topic that I think well I think would be really helpful for our listeners because each of you have experienced and walked through um not only the joys of motherhood but then also you've experienced loss and loss in motherhood specifically with miscarriage. Um and it's such a

3:04 prevalent thing that happens with with women uh around the globe. Um, I was just looking up some of the statistics on um, miscarriage and it's like 15% of Wow. of uh, pregnancies end in miscarriage, but that's of those that they can track and recognize. Uh, so there's probably a lot more even before someone recognizes they're pregnant. So, I thought, you know, as we think about your journeys and then, uh, Jessa, you were just saying in your church, you you have loved ones who are walking through it. M obviously we've all walked through it, but then there's people coming to my into my mind right now who are walking through it or have just recently and so the three of you having such I think a really helpful perspective like

3:50 a theological grounding, you know, the the three of you have your hope set and rooted in Christ, uh you've walked through it together to some degree or other and you've had a good community like a church around you as you've gone through that. So I thought you have a lot to offer to speak to our audience collectively on this topic. Yeah. So, we kind of wanted to just talk about those stories and share as much as you want to on this topic because I know it's not easy to talk about at times like there's there's some of that where you feel like maybe if it was a little while back it's not there there's it's you have life has gone on as there are those seasons that slow down and yeah

4:35 there still is that pain when you remember that sweet loved one but everyone else's lives around you continue to go on and your own life does, but at the same time, there's still that memory and that loss that you've experienced and will always carry and remember. Mhm. And I think in that vein, a lot of women struggle with it silently. Mhm. Because maybe they do feel like everybody's moved on and then they don't want to be seen as, well, you just won't let go or you can't just get past this and they don't want to keep bringing it up how they're struggling. Mhm. And so we want to kind of open the door in this conversation to working through that and to hear how each of you have worked through it in different ways um as very you have a lot of similarities. You know your sisters but

5:21 then you have a lot of differences too and your personalities and life's trajectory and all that. So, um, why don't we start with, um, and I don't know, Ginger, if you want to start or whoever would want to kick us off, but, take us back to that moment when you first realized that something was wrong in your pregnancy and kind of bring us into that. And I think that, yeah, it mine was at probably 6 and 1/2, 7 weeks along. I just announced to the family, we had a big gathering um, on Zoom because we were in LA. And I was super excited because I was like, I'm gonna share with the family that we're expecting number two. And right after we did this gender reveal, it was like I mean, not gender reveal, like this pregnancy announcement. Um, we did like a whole gingerbread

6:06 theme and the gingerbread mom was like pregnant. It was super cute. I remember that. It was super cute. Um, and it was a special moment like having all the family here that we were expecting and then it quickly changed because later that night I started having some complications, some spotting and I realized I was just like, "Oh, it's probably fine. It's just cuz I know some people have that and we'll be fine." But for me, it wasn't. And it ended up that was the night when it kind of all turned into like just like what's happening cuz I didn't expect that to happen. And I think there's a certain level of like excitement that you feel and joy and you

6:52 just kind of think everything's going to be fine cuz I've never, you know, the other pregnancy was perfect and I should be able to just be fine. And so with that though, I think it was just there was so much pain and like you have some physical pain but then at the same time it's like what's happening and then the whatifs start to come into your mind like is this going to be the last pregnancy I'm able to carry because just not knowing you don't know what's happening and so it's scary and that I didn't have family close by and so there was that that side of like I feel like when I've I had Felicity even though it was just my first like having my mom there was comforting and not having anybody close by was something that I felt like how like it

7:41 just feels different cuz I had J as my support but you also kind of want your mom or sister there and it's like I was there too. Yeah. And it's it's something that it's it's just hard. So I I don't know like walking through that pain and then having to tell everyone the next day what was happening. I called mom immediately like what do I do? Do I go to the hospital? And there was just so much pain and sadness wrapped around that. And and following that miscarriage, I I remember thinking, well, if I get pregnant again, is this going to just happen over and over? And there was fear that you face. And I think we want to get into that in a little bit, but that was my story of how early it was early on. And and at the same time, there's such loss because you

8:28 realize it's a sweet human life that God's given you. That gift of carrying the baby for however long it was. Felicity was so excited. We were so excited. Everyone was excited. And then you experienced loss. And so for me, it wasn't as maybe even as difficult or traumatic in the same way as others. It was around 8 weeks, would you say? It was probably It was like seven seven weeks. And so with that um there's there's that that side I think where a culture just often wants to excuse it as nothing and say it doesn't it's not a baby and they don't look at um life as important at that stage. But I think that we realize as Christians that every life matters from the moment of conception every life is precious and it

9:15 is a gift and something that we are blessed to carry. And so Mhm. anyhow pivoting now to either one of you girls, whoever wants to talk about your story and the loss, you know, and when in that moment that you experienced the loss. Well, I guess so. Go ahead. Next. Yeah. We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about Every Plate. Do you think you have to spend big bucks or take tons of time to make delicious and healthy food at home? Well, think again. Thanks to Every Plate, ingredients are sent to your home that are healthy, that are easy to assemble, that are delicious for the whole family. Oh, yeah. You get restaurant style deliciousness delivered right to your door. And they have recipes like crispy buffalo ranch chicken and cheesy Mexican

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11:34 if you don't like it, they'll return it. They'll come pick it up hassle-free or they'll replace it. You're not going to want to return it, though, because I'm telling you, we got our bed and now Jeremy's parents, they were in town visiting, and they want to try out our bed because Oh, yeah. They were They heard so much about They're literally laying down on our bed to test it to figure out which one they want to get. We got to figure out what firmness what we want. So yeah, you guys need to go to Brooklynbetting.com and use our code JJ. It's real simple. Just JJ for 30% off sitewide. So your pick of the litter, 30% off sitewide. Brooklynbetting.com, use our code JJ. Now back to the episode. I experienced two different losses. And so my first was very early. I was like 5 weeks along. Um had just gotten a

12:21 positive pregnancy test and hadn't told anybody and Ben and I kind of had waited with some of our babies to until we were out of the first trimester before telling people. Um and some of that was like well what if something went wrong or whatever. Mhm. So, we had traveled for a wedding and it was right before the start of the wedding that I went to the bathroom and there was just so much blood. Oh, wow. And it was like it was terrible. I mean, the the timing, everything. Like, I came out and I was just like devastated. I was crying. And then we're about to go into this wedding and

13:08 You feel like to some degree you kind of have to pull it together cuz you've traveled and you're here and like just practically you have to like run to the drugstore and get some pads or whatever. Like just very and and then you're like that's my baby and you didn't get to say goodbye or whatever. And so it was hard. I think in some ways it was almost worse that we hadn't announced because people would say things unknowingly like asking like when are you going to grow your family? like when are you going to have another baby or something like that and they don't know. And so I think to

13:54 some degree it's like you know you don't let those things get to you because obviously it was our choice to not to not say that we were expecting beforehand but then you don't really want to go into like oh we were expecting and we lost a baby. So that was challenging. Um anyway, but then with our with our second loss, we were um further further along. But um we did go ahead and announce like as soon as we got a positive pregnancy test, I think we kind of decided like you know what, it's better like even if something does go wrong, people know and people that are closest to you know and you can have that that support and

14:41 people to be there in maybe a more meaningful way if they know what you're going through. And so, um, that did kind of change my perspective on announcing earlier. But, um, yeah, with our second loss, things were going along pretty well, um, up until I would say I was I was about 12 weeks and I hadn't had any signs or symptoms that anything was wrong. And then uh but I like in hindsight it's like you look back and you see different things and you're like I should have I should have known something was off because my like I'm usually sick for the first trimester and my morning sickness had tapered off earlier than normal. And then also just like practical things like I was still wearing my regular jeans and people were like like I just had a friend tell me a

15:28 few days before like girl you're so small you don't even look pregnant. whereas usually I like by 12 weeks I would have like a little pooch or have to, you know, start pulling out some of my maternity clothes or whatever. But um I was just I just thought like, oh well, I'm just like being really active and like eating really well and like I just didn't I chocked it up to that. But then um yeah, so I had called and scheduled my um appointment for a gender reveal ultrasound when I was 14 weeks. So we were like two weeks out from that. And then right after that, I had like the smallest amount of spotting. And so I'm googling like, "Is this normal? Is this okay?" And then that was it. Like nothing else. And so I was like, "Oh, it's probably nothing. It's probably I'm probably fine. I probably just overdid it or something." But then

16:14 I it just I couldn't let it go. Like I just I had this like concern like this check in my heart like I I should get this like looked into. And so I went ahead and called and made an appointment for an ultrasound the next day. And so we went in, Ben and I went in and I suspected that something could be wrong. And sure enough, as soon as the ultrasound started, the lady said that the baby didn't have a heartbeat and had and hadn't had a heartbeat for several weeks. So, it was a missed miscarriage, which means like you don't really have the signs and symptoms that something has gone wrong and your body hasn't really caught up because I was

17:00 still feeling like a little bit nauseous or um having some of those symptoms, but yeah. So, but but not just like full on like knowing this is a miscarriage. And so, yeah, that was really hard. There was like lots of different layers to that just like no like we've made it to the second trimester. You're supposed to be safe once you get there. Like that's that's the safe zone. And then having gone through for me what's the most difficult part of the pregnancy is that first trimester when I'm so fatigued and feel so bad and I'm so sick and now I'm just getting to the part where it's like the easier part, you know, like the middle part and and then the baby's gone and there's no heartbeat and then having to make the decisions of what to do next. And there was a winter

17:47 storm coming through town that weekend and we had to go to the doctor and then we were there like at the hospital for a while and yeah just all the all of the emotions surrounding that. Plus to make things worse I forgot to cancel my gender reveal ultrasound. So then like 2 weeks later they're they're like calling me like, "Oh, are you are you just running behind for your appointment?" And I'm like, "Oh, actually I need to cancel." And they're like, "Oh, you need to give 24 hours notice." Which was really I mean that's on me. I'm not blaming them. Mhm. But it was just like so many different factors of like you're grieving that all over again like oh man like this would have been you know all the milestones and you know that probably more than anything just being even further along and having gone through all that you went through like grieving those things you know that

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22:25 um, so we had, um, we had waited a year to get pregnant after I had Gideon cuz I had had emergency C-section. And so we were at the point where we were like very ready, very excited to have another one. Um, and we found out we were pregnant and um, it like everything like it was a great pregnancy. I felt great. Um, and we went in at 10 weeks and got my first ultrasound and baby just looked great. Like I have the video still and I watch it a lot. Um, just kicking around little arms and legs, heart rate was great. And then we went in for um we went in for

23:14 our 20week um anatomy scan and um gender reveal. We decided it was really last minute. We had went in. We were like um I had actually talked to mama and I was like, "Hey, I don't know like I haven't felt the baby kick in a while." know, like I had I had just started feeling at 17 weeks um like 16 and a half 17 feeling the baby kick and I was like I haven't felt anything really in a while. So I' I want to go just make sure everything's okay and we're going to do a gender reveal. Go ahead and just Austin and I find out like I think that would be special cuz with Gideon our first um we didn't find out till he was born. So I was really excited to go in and find out the gender this time around. Um, and so we dropped off Gideon

24:00 with my mom and then we went to the ultrasound and the lady we sat down. She was getting all of our details and she she put the Doppler on my belly and like right away like her face just completely sunk and she was like, "I'm so sorry, but there's not a heartbeat." And um yeah, just that like shock feeling of what what's happening like you just that's not what I was expecting. I guess looking back I did have kind of a gut feeling of something may not be right but also I'm like I don't want to overexaggerate like I don't want to read into things. Um, and it was like I just remember feeling so

24:49 numb leaving the ultrasound and she like she went ahead and did all the measurements to see like how big baby was and um how much amiotic fluid was and so like just sitting there knowing I'm getting ultrasound like processing that the baby's not alive anymore and just wondering like what does the road head look like? I was so scared. Um, and I immediately called mom on the way home and told her what had happened and she obviously was heartbroken cuz she had been through, you know, she's mama's been through loss before. And I just remember Austin and I driving home and we just were just I don't know, I guess numb is the

25:34 word. Just I didn't know how to feel, what to feel. um just completely at a loss and it was it was a really hard it was a really hard road. And so we went ahead and scheduled it wasn't until a week later that we went into the hospital and um delivered Annabelle there. Um, and that was extremely hard having to go through the whole delivery process. And I I'm so thankful that I had mama there that had been through it before. I had um Jill was there, Carlin had flew into town and I had a really good support team. But even with all of

26:19 that, it was extremely difficult. Um, and just your like you were saying, Ginger, your your body, it doesn't even matter at what gestation, your body still thinks that you're pregnant. And so even if you're mentally struggling physically, your body is struggling because it's like, what is it's wrecked your system. It's like, what's going on? And so even if you're 6 weeks, 5 weeks, your body still has all of those pregnancy hormones that are going through it. And so it takes a long time physically for your body to recover from that. Anyway, so we went and delivered and then a week later or I guess it was that it was the next the couple days later when we got discharged um we had her burial and her little

27:07 funeral um ceremony. Um thanks for sharing that girls. I mean that is I think you describing those stories and just sharing it's like it's hard to go back and talk about those things because there's there's the pain that feels so raw when you're in those moments and like yeah it does take you back there and just I appreciate how you guys are willing to open up and talk about it cuz I think there's so many of my friends who have been through loss even similar to you all and um and I think that when you're able to open up and talk about it, it can help. And at the same time, I

27:52 want to get into how did you cope with that? How how did you process what happened and like was were was there things that were helpful for those who maybe haven't walked through miscarriage? Were there things that were not helpful? Um what what was I mean it can look different for each person because um I remember for me in that season there it was crazy because I felt like I was still so new to my community and that was one of the first things I remember was my friend Kinsey. She came over. I didn't know her like extremely well at that point. And um I was just building community there. And she heard

28:39 about the miscarriage and came over and sat with me. Mhm. For two maybe 3 hours. I don't know how long it was. It felt like a long time. And she just sat there. We didn't have to talk. I was like feeling bad. I was still nauseous. I was still having to go to the bathroom. And there was so much happening. But she just sat there and that meant the world to me. And I just could not believe that somebody would take the time out of their day, she has three kids of her own, and would just come sit with me. And I think that those little things like somebody else brought me a meal and and Val came over and did all the she just came over and took care of the kids like Yeah. Felicity at that point,

29:25 but she took care of Felicity and I was just able to relax for for that whole period of time because I didn't have there's a there's a side of it where you just feel like like I should even especially I think so early on in the miscarriage. I felt kind of strange like working through it because it it feels different because it's so early and I was like, well, why is it still hard when I'm so early along, but I still like you have all the things like you said, you're still nauseous from that early morning sickness and then needing to go to the bathroom because it's like there's so much happening still. you know, you're passing the baby and all those things and it's like there's so much that is like

30:11 you're just processing and still yeah that numbness that you said I think no matter what stage it's harder when you're you're further along in that sense and then but you still feel that numb like shock just utter shock and so what yeah that well that was a question I was going to ask all of you was was there something that surprised you about how you responded or didn't respond or what you were feeling or Joy, you had mentioned your mom had gone through it with Jubilee Shalom and I don't know if she'd experienced other loss as well, but did you think you'd respond a certain way and then found yourself responding a different way or what was what was your your Yeah. Did it shock you how you responded in those moments? For me, it was um I I guess I never had

30:59 thought about it like how am I going to respond if something happens? I for me I guess everybody would say oh you're so strong you're handling this so well and inside like you know you're freaking out like you're like I just I don't know what's going on but I do remember and it wasn't and I kept telling everybody I was like it's not me and that's the one thing I look back on and I'm like even in like the darkest days of my life I look I still look back at that and I'm like there was an unexplainable peace M and comfort. Not that what I'm going through is okay, you know, but like the peace and the comfort that God gave during that time of

31:44 that he just he just was like, "It's going to you're going to be okay. You're going to come out on the other side of this." I and just the visual I guess for me of the the visual of God holding Annabelle and like in the arms of Jesus is what we put on her tombstone. But in just that visual for me I guess gave me a whole a whole other view of it. And so for me, I it's not that oh, I I had this great response to it, but it was I was so I guess in awe of how much comfort God gave in that season that I just wouldn't have ever thought that I could have had, if that makes sense. So, it wasn't like something that I had done or a response that I chose,

32:32 but I really feel like God God gave me that grace and the comfort that I needed in that season. Wow. And how about you, Jess? What would you say was I mean going back to even um what things were helpful around that time? How were you processing everything in that season? Well, I remember after mom lost Jubilee, how um when they had gathered us together and they were telling us how she and dad had said like we praised the Lord in the good times and we praised the Lord in the hard times and um like quoting those words of Job after he had lost everything, his children and all everything. Um the Lord

33:19 gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. And so I definitely wasn't able to say it right away, but that is something that definitely their example in that came back to my mind, you know, a day or two later as I was grieving through that process. And I was able to say that like God is God is still good. You know, even in the hard times, God is still good. And I think a huge comfort for me was that I did have little ones to be able to hold because um so many of my friends have gone through loss like with a first baby and you know they come home from the hospital and that's they're all alone. Um and so that's something that when I came back home I definitely you know I took my little ones in my arms and I

34:05 held them and I was so thankful to have that comfort. And I think another layer is people don't always know maybe what to say. People I mean a lot of people do want to be there for you when you're grieving and when you're going through a hard time. They may not always know what to say or what to do and that's okay. Like you had said like somebody coming to sit with you. I had that, you know, somebody came and sat with me for a while while I just went through all the what did I do wrong and I wasn't taking my vitamins and I was painting a room before I miscarried and like probably those tombs were so toxic and I didn't know and like just all the you know and they're like you don't have to bear this like this is you cannot say this was your fault like

34:51 just like being there just to comfort me to like put their arms around me that was so that was so comforting somebody gave me um also uh book by John MacArthur, safe in the arms, safe in the arms of God. And that was really comforting as well. Um another mom who had lost a baby full term like when she was like nine months pregnant, she had given me that and so that was really comforting. Those were things that meant a lot. You know, people just sometimes you don't even have to say anything or if you do probably just say, "I love you. I'm praying for you." Um you know, those kinds of things. There were people that would try to maybe rationalize like, oh well, like somebody had said the the least helpful things. Here's the

35:37 things you don't say. Um like, oh well, God probably just wants you to focus on the babies that you have, you know, or you know, like go maybe God's telling you this is like it's time to be done. No. Or or saying things like, "Well, a lot of times when you miscarry, it's because there was something wrong with the baby. they probably wouldn't have made it anyway. And I'm like, I do not need to hear that right now. That is that is regardless of if any of those things might be true, that is not that is not helpful. But the people who would just were just there to be be there for you. Like another friend, she's just like texted me the night that we got back from the hospital and said, "I'm going to drop something on your doorstep." And she just brought over a bouquet of flowers and a rotisserie chicken. And it wasn't like she went out and got

36:23 like a five course meal. And and I just and I sat there looking at that and I was like, "This is so practical." Like a little ray of sunshine on my countertop and protein to fuel us. Like that's it was so practical. But it also showed me it doesn't have to be always huge or elaborate. It can just be the little things that you're doing to show somebody you're there for them and that you care for them. And I think those were things that were very meaningful. Well, one of the the things you brought out in your initial grieving was you've got all of these thoughts swirling through your mind about the loss and then immediately having to deal with the practical like going to CVS across the street before a wedding. And so for loved ones to come alongside and I think

37:08 this is so helpful for people because you you all have experienced loss but then you also have people in your life who are experiencing loss and to come alongside them in such a sweet way to say you know hey I'm just here to sit with you I can I can be a soundboard for you if you'd like but then also to provide a rotisserie chicken. just goes so far because those practical needs don't stop, especially if you've got other littles. They still need dinner. They still need mac and cheese. They need to be put down for bed. And one of the things that was on my heart, even as we were talking about this episode, was there's a lot of uh mothers out there who've experienced loss or are experiencing loss who maybe don't even have the support of a husband or the support of a close, tight-knit

37:54 church community. And so, they really feel ultra isolated in that. How would you well I guess encourage people who see someone like that in their life to go and support them because it's an isolating experience I I imagine going through it. Yeah. I mean it's already there's there's going to be even if you have a community there's going to be that almost loneliness feeling of like you lost a part of you a part of your family. And so I can't imagine not having community outside of just that. Like that is dark and it's hard to go through even if you have community. And so if you do like I I think because I have

38:40 gone through loss and my sisters have and my mom has. I've seen the way that people loved on me and it whenever I hear of somebody going through something dark. It gives me I have the empathy because I've been through that to um to be able to go and even if like you said not even saying something sometimes and just being there or just showing up and saying hey I'm going to drop something on your doorstep or hey I'm going to if you have kids I'm going to give you an activity for your kids to do let's bring a splash pad or coloring book or something for them to keep busy so you can have five minutes. I think that it is so important to have community and you have to build that and it's not you don't you don't do it

39:26 you don't build community so that they'll you know so they'll do something for you but you do want to reach out to people as Christians to help carry the load help comfort because you do want that whenever you want to treat other people the way you want to be treated really and so if there's a time that you've been and it may not even be lost but like if it's you have somebody that you've lost in your life, a loved one, what meant most to you, you can go and reach out and do that to other people. And I think something that I've noticed is I when I was going through it, I would people would say, "Hey, how are how are you doing?" Like, "Oh, I'm good." And instead of actually accepting help, I would say, "Oh, I'm good." And I think

40:11 on the receiving end, I need to be more honest with people and say, "Today's been a really hard day," or, "This week's been really hard for me." But then on the giving end, I try not to ask open-ended questions anymore. So if somebody's going through something hard, don't just ask them, "Hey, how are you doing?" Or, "Hey, can I get y'all anything? Let me know if you need anything." I try to um say, "Hey, I'm going to bring a meal on this day. Does that work for you?" or hey, I'm going to uh do this rather than asking them because then it puts the pressure on them and obviously I think you can feel it out with the certain person like there may be people that really don't want you in their space but if it's somebody that you're comfortable with not asking those open-ended questions where it puts the pressure on them to think more or to have to ask you

40:56 yes again cuz I wise saying hey let me know just say hey I'm going to do this on this day and then it gives them the ultimatum to either say No, please don't. Or that would be amazing. Thank you, Troy. That is so helpful. I'm thinking of Victoria and others actually. Barb, there's people in our life who uh even if it wasn't like it was this latest pregnancy actually when you gave birth to Finn, which is okay that you know you're recovering and Victoria would text us when she's 5 minutes down the road having left and said, "Hey, there's something on your doorstep." Yeah, it was so sweet. She left you the opportunity to say no. Yeah. And then she came and like um she came and cleaned my house for like I don't know how many hours. And those little things mean the world

41:43 because I would always say, "Oh, I don't want to put you out cuz I know you have a kid or your your life is so busy and I as much as I want the help and I feel like I'm just like I could really use that. I keep thinking of everything that they're doing in their lives and I would never want to like accept it because that means they're going to have to drive an hour to my house or they're going to have to drive 30 40 minutes get somebody to hang with their kid while their husband works or whatever it is. But at the same time, if they're offering there's that like it's it means so much. Those things mean the world is all about. Yeah. That's what and you you build that community when you're not in those moments of darkness and by being real connecting with people. I think that's something that's huge. It's so hard to do especially in Christian circles. It's like to let

42:30 somebody into your life is uncomfortable and and I think all of us could probably say like in those deepest darkest times um when you don't know what to do and it's like you're at your wits and you're like I don't care how you see me right now. My house is a mess. I don't know what to do. I'm broken. And that's the time when I think true. you can see like I don't have anything to offer you in this moment. There's nothing that you're gaining from coming to serve me. But there is because there's their joy of letting them serve you and we can either push that community away or allow them to be blessed by serving you as well and to not I think there's also a side where

43:15 we could all see where there are times where people take advantage of that. Yeah. But in true community where you're like, "Okay, no, I really do need your help right now. It's not like this is going to be forever." Yeah, you're going to be able to give back. It's not like you're just taking non-stop like you said, but that beauty of that's what the church is for. That's what community is for. And like I think that for each of you, I don't know what you would say too in those moments like was there something that encouraged you, the Lord used to encourage you? Was it a verse? Was there a song that came to mind in those deepest, darkest times? Because it doesn't just end right away. I Joy was reminding me the other day. I was uh just we were talking about somebody who had experienced great loss and she just said it was super sad because

44:01 um here this family is they walked through great loss and she said the sad part was hardly anybody got to meet their little one um because of the way that their little one was there but was away from community having been in the hospital during the time of her life. And so she said she texted her the other day and was just just saying like I want to make sure that I'm reaching out to her now because that has passed. A lot of people will forget about the pain and the loss that she walked through. And that was just such a great reminder of like she's only, you know, barely removed from that. Like it it was a recent loss and yet a month in everybody moves on and they're not going to take you a meal there. And she she has to walk through that day in and

44:47 day out. So I think that was encouraging like h how how did you process through and you said God giving you the comfort like what were some things that the Lord used to comfort you in those seasons for me I had um I had a few songs that really meant a lot. So there's a song that all the way my savior leads me and I would just play that on repeat. Um, and I just remember like God God knows the pain I'm going through and he's going to be here to comfort me. And I think I really leaned heavily on that because I was like, I if I I could go down a dark road. I could go down this dark hole and feel like I couldn't get

45:32 out if I didn't lean on Christ and say, "God knows the pain I'm going through. He's going to get me through it. There's light at the end of the tunnel." And I just remember listening to those that song over and over again. Um, and then Austin would play scripture and if I would I mean I'm very just an open dialogue. So I'm just like here's all the thoughts I'm thinking and he'd be like, "Okay, this is truth and this is a lie and don't believe this and here's this." and just kind of have an open dialogue with him of what I was thinking and the the I guess the lies that I might have been believing or you know just things like that that really helped me. That's so good. H how did what role did your husbands play in in coming alongside of you in those

46:20 moments? Ben Austin, as you look back, you know, we have all these outside support and the women in your life, you as sisters too uh supporting one another. What did that look like for the husband? How would you encourage a husband? For Austin, I think it I I honestly I feel selfish looking back now cuz I'm like I was the one going through the loss. But I remember cloud kid. It dawning on me like a couple weeks later. I'm like this was his baby too. like um and I remember he just was trying to be strong for me. Um but there were many moments where he just kind of lost it and just was crying and um

47:11 I I looking back I'm like I wish I would have been more supportive for him too. Um but he was really strong for me when I wasn't. And I think like I said just I'm I'm very um I'm very with him just like here it is let me throw up on you here's all the thoughts here's all the fears here's all the what like why is God doing this questions and he just was constantly here's the truth here's God's word here's let's play this song like he's a great DJ when it comes to like spiritual encouraging music like I um there were so many times where I'm just talking and he would play a song and it would be just truth about who God

47:58 is and um so I think for me he was a huge rock in my life during that time and just constantly pointing me back to Christ and um I do feel like after I realized you know I need to I need to be comforting to him too. I feel like we worked through it together and healed together. Yeah, I would say Ben was very very much the same. Just always with the uh like the songs, the spiritual encouragement and um just uh stepping away from work and being like this is my priority. I need to be here. Um we did have a lot of help being close to family here in Arkansas.

48:43 Yeah, mom was definitely there to help us out with the kids and go to the hospital with us, especially with the the second loss being a little further along and um yeah, but he would just take the kids and like rest and um you know, he was a shoulder to cry on and like you were saying with a song. I had a song too that meant a lot to me and I still cannot hear that song to this day without instantly being brought to tears. um in some ways just remembering that season but then also God's faithfulness through it and so yeah that was definitely a rock as well. You mentioned your mom. What an incredible woman. She's amazing. She is there for every single one of her

49:29 children when you're giving birth when in the midst of loss and she just drops. I mean, if if you were to say, "How should you respond to help, to support, to love others in their moments of need?" She's the paradigm. Yes. She forgets herself. Yeah. And just gets lost in serving. Yes. And I don't know how she does it for all of her children. That's incredible. You feel like there's probably like a hundred of her around because I often wonder I'm like even with little things, you know, and you'll call her up at midnight. I've called her so many times. I'm like, I don't know what to do. What's happening, you know, with this little one or with myself or something that's happening? And she just always has an answer. So calm

50:16 and and just servant minded in that. And knowing all that she's sacrificed and gone through, she doesn't ever talk about her herself or her pain. And and there's there is that selflessness that you see and it's just incredible. And I wanted to ask too, okay, so shifting a little bit, um, how both of you have gone through great loss and then walked into the joy of life after miscarriage and being able to walk through um, pregnancy again and go in and God's kindness to deliver healthy babies and to experience that. Um, but I

51:04 want to talk about for just a second, how did you handle the fear and anxiety of walking into a pregnancy following such great loss? I think it is scary. I think it's it's hard to allow yourself early on to feel excited when you see that positive pregnancy test because you feel like you're bracing yourself. You're like, "This may go how it went last time." And you know, I've had friends who have had backto-back losses and it is just devastation upon devastation. And so I feel like um my my losses were separated. They weren't back to back, but I definitely felt that until I was past the marker of where I lost my last baby, it was very hard for me to feel

51:51 like really emotionally invested or to like get attached because I was like any second this could be gone. you're terrified. I mean, just like basically every time you go to the bathroom, you're like, is there blood? Like, am I am I losing this baby? And um so that's like the hard side. I think like some of the the um benefits for me after having gone through a loss were that I was a lot more grateful. I took a lot less for granted and I was definitely less I still I still would complain a little bit about pregnancy aches and pains but I would you know I would take a second and be like but I'm but I wouldn't want it to be any other way you know when those pregnancy symptoms of like nausea or whatever like went past into the

52:38 second trimester with one of my babies. I was like, "This is going on really long." But then I thought, but it stopped short with the other baby that I lost. And like I wouldn't have it any other way. Like I'm thankful. You're thankful even for like hard aspects of pregnancy because it's you're still your baby's still there and you're still pregnant and you're you're I feel like it just caused me to be so much more um grateful and to cherish life even more. And so those were definitely some of the benefits. Mhm. Did you have some of the same fears, Joy? Yeah, definitely. I think with with I I would have this like battle in my mind almost of like I'm so scared like I'm

53:23 not going to get excited, but then I would go to the other side of like, well, I don't need to be controlled by that. I need to be like, God's given us this life and it's not in my control, so I'm going to trust him. And then the next day I'd be like, but what if this happens? And so, it was constant. I think the whole pregnancy just back and forth and I think once I did have more peace of mind once I passed the 20we marker um but even past that I'm like well I heard of this story and like but then Austin would remind me he's like now have being pregnant and having fear and anxiety is not good for the baby that goes to the baby. So he would remind me and I'm like, "Okay, I'm not gonna be anxious." But then I would I would have to ask God to help me over and over because it wasn't something

54:09 that I just got over and was pass. Like I think it was just a battle the whole time. And I think every pregnancy that I mean I say the two pregnancies after I think it's just been something I have to keep giving back to God of like I'm not in control of this. only God knows and I need to do what I can to obviously take care of my body and the baby, but past that it's God's. And I love I love how you said that, too. I think there's that level of trust with anything in life as believers. We have the hope of Christ knowing that okay, whatever he allows to come our way, good or bad, that we have to trust him. that can look like in finances. It can look like in you know relationships and with every area and this is another

54:56 area that feels can feel so different because it's like well there's so much you feel like you can do or maybe didn't do right because we feel like there's some level of control but there's really ultimately it is the same as any other area. God is in control of that. So we just allowing ourselves to find that rest and trust. And I want to talk about now looking back at that at those losses. How how have you processed everything in hindsight seeing God's goodness and faithfulness throughout that season even as you you move on but you there's still is that that side where you don't because there's you you will have a memory that will come up or

55:42 there will be something that reminds you and how have you seen the faithfulness of God and even growing in trust in the Lord through that trial through those trials that he's allowed. Um, for me personally, I feel like it was um that was one of the biggest faith growing and I you hear the word faith thrown around and I think it was a time where it my faith actually like had to dig deeper and it was faith put into action. It wasn't just the word and oh yeah, I believe in God and oh yeah, whatever. like I I went through that and I feel like God used it. That was something for good that came out of that was for me to

56:30 really trust God and not not know why. I don't know why that happened, but I can I can look at that and say, I grew through this. I grew through that. Like what are some what are some positive things that happened? And even just something that we had talked about when we got pregnant with Evelyn. Um we we got pregnant with Evelyn about 6 months after and we wouldn't have been able to have Annabelle and Evelyn. So for me looking back and saying obviously like we it hurt to go through that loss but if we you know we we wouldn't have Evie today if we hadn't have lost Annabelle and so just I guess for me

57:19 instead of God was really gracious to help me not to get bitter at him through that and just to um and I think it's community and support that we had to help us to look at the positive side of things. And so that was something that I can look back and I'm like, we have Evelyn. Like God knew we needed her in our family here on earth. And um anyway, that was something that was comforting for me. Jess, anything to add there? I mean, in some ways, it makes heaven sweeter. M think about one day being able to be reunited with these little ones and you know other family members who have gone

58:04 on before and I remember um after Jubilee's passing with some of the younger sisters they were trying to process Jubilees in heaven and they had had a conversation mom wrote this one down um talking to a lady who had just lost her mother and I believe it was Jordan who was saying like your your your mom's up there with my little sister and and like it's so real like when you see little ones talking about heaven and and their sibling and all that but it is it's so much there's so much truth in that and I think that's a comfort to know like we will be reunited with the ones we've lost and so um That's a hope that we hold on

58:53 to. Um, and I remember one mom who had gone through a loss. I don't remember if she told this to me or she was just sharing this as part of her experience, but she was saying that um it had comforted her to know that the the first thing her baby saw when it opened its eyes was the face of Jesus. And you know, spared from the pain and the suffering of this world, obviously we wouldn't we wouldn't make that choice. But there is so much beauty in knowing that our little ones are in the presence of the Lord. And so that's comforting. I'll never forget the moment my cousin Nikki called me on a Monday morning or I called her on a Monday evening actually

59:38 because on the Monday morning uh her little six-year-old uh had a seizure and died in bed. And so I I called her and I said, "Hey, cuz how you doing?" And I'll never forget what she said. with tears and her voice breaking up. She said, she said, "Hey, cuz the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, but blessed be the name of the Lord." Which is Job 1:21. And you've some of you have mentioned it already today. And it's that that confidence of Job who for those of you who are familiar with the book, the Lord is taking every he's stripping him of everything he owns, including his 10 children. His friends turn on him,

1:00:24 his wife turns on him, his riches, his possessions are taken. And yet Job's knee-jerk response is to bless God. And it says at the end of the book after Job goes through this tribulation that the Lord restored the fortunes of Job and gave him twice of all that he had. And then it goes through and you think, okay, his possessions are back. He had 10 more children. And yet, if you think carefully, you go, "But but he lost 10 children." And so no parent is going, "Oh, but look, I've got 10 more." Mhm. No, you you lost 10. And so as you wrestle with that, you go, "God, how what do you mean you restored all of the fortunes of Job?" Well, what he did was,

1:01:11 and this is what I believe, if you read the book of Job and see how Job interceded for his children's souls, that he now has 20 children with him in glory. And so God truly did double. No, you need a different vantage point than just our earthly temporary vantage point of the stuff we have on this life or the relationships in this life and you have to look beyond to eternity. But you think of Job, he's got 20 children with him in glory. The Lord doubled his fortune. And just as you even say that, you know, Ginger and I uh we didn't know the gender of our baby, but we named our baby Helli Grace and thinking one day we'll meet Helli, which means praise in heaven. And as much pain as we're going through

1:02:00 in the experience of this broken world to have an eternal perspective, you know, I think a lot of people listening to this will go, how can you hope in a God who allows that? And here these painful experiences are drawing you closer to God and closer to his love. It's like it's just second nature for the three of you to speak of his goodness and his kindness and his faithfulness. But I think a lot of people will wrestle with that going, "How can you trust a God who will take the life of a child?" And yet um when you see that God's ways are are are not our ways, he is infinitely more wise and you see it

1:02:45 through an eternal lens, an eternal perspective and get outside of our temporary experience of pain and realize I don't know why God is doing everything he's doing, but I know he's good and his plan is good. So whatever he's doing, it's for our good. It's for his glory. Even the taking of those little ones to think of your child. We are living our whole life fighting to hold on to the hope of seeing one day seeing Jesus Christ and your little baby beat you to it. Mhm. They're there. They've seen him. They've been held in his arms safely in his arms. And it gives us that confidence that I

1:03:32 don't know why he's doing everything he's doing, but I know he's good. And I would urge just, you know, as we're thinking conscientiously of people who are listening from different walks of faith or different perspectives in life or different amounts of faith. Um the alternative, you know, if you want to shake your fist and say, "I refuse to believe in a God that would allow brokenness to happen in this world. Well, then your alternative is well, all you've got is darkness. There is no redemption. I think Joy, you said it earlier, maybe it was Jessa, that for you, you know, there's light at the end of this tunnel. And that's the hope of the Christian is that everything, that's why in Revelation, it says every tear will be

1:04:19 wiped away. There will be no more pain because it's not always going to be broken like this. There is going to be restoration. there is going to be redemption. There is going to be a joyfilled reunion with your children. And so for the Christian that that grounds us that establishes our hope and although maybe and I would love to hear your perspectives on this just for a moment, but help the the the women who might be struggling in their doubt. So maybe they hear that and honestly maybe they look at the three of you and I know your sister Jill has gone through this as well and others very close to you. So Jill's out of town so she couldn't be here to have this conversation but um they might look at the strength of your faith and

1:05:06 compound their own guilt because maybe they've been angry at God. Maybe they're going through it and they're going, "Well, then I must not even be saved because You know, look at these sisters. They're not doubting for a moment. And like you said, like so resolved. And you you What would you say to them in in their doubt, in their struggle with is God good? Because he allowed this. You do go through the whole range of emotions. Yeah. It's not like you just block it out and you're just like, "Oh, I'm good with it." Like for I mean, it's it's obviously it's a choice to praise God in the hard times, but it's it's a process to get there. And everybody's timeline is different, but um you definitely do ask those

1:05:52 questions. You do it. It is hard. And you do ask the why like why God? Why? Why this baby? Why me? Why us? Why are we walking through this? Why would you take this little one home? Like just you do walk through all of those questions. And I think that is a part of the grieving process. It's not instantaneous. Um, and that's okay. Yeah. And that's and that's okay. I I mean, if you look at the Psalms, you see David wrestling with God like, why, oh Lord? And he looks at, you know, the the state of the world around him. Why? Why this brokenness? Why this heartache? And there's always some kind of a conclusion at the end where he brings it back. But I will praise God.

1:06:39 It's that decision. But Jinger and I talked about this the other day. those psalms th Okay, it's 18 verses and you can read it in three minutes. Yeah, but that was borne out over a three-year experience for David. Yeah. And so his conclusion comes at the end of this trial. But that doesn't mean he's going, why God? Okay. Well, I trust you and praise you. Yeah. in a 5minute devotional, which is what we want to kind of encapsulate and go, if I don't walk out of my morning devotion the day after experiencing this loss joyfilled and praising, then I'm not I'm a failure. Yeah, I'm a failure. No, no, no. The realness of those psalms is these are years of the psalmist's lives. Their ultimate conclusion is the goodness of God. Just like the three of you sitting here with some objectivity

1:07:26 are going, "God is good." And we can look back And through the tears we see the hope. Yeah. But it's not in a moment. No, I definitely had. And it wasn't, oddly enough, it wasn't through that time like it wasn't in that exact like right after I lost the baby. It was a couple years later where I went through something else that was dark and I asked those hard questions. And I think it was

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