The Leader of a State that Nobody Recognizes - Ersin Tatar

0:00 To understand the Cyprus problem, you have to understand the concept of sovereignty. Here, in the Turkish Cypriot community, they learn one side of the story, in the Greek Cypriot side, they learn the other side of the story, and that's why we've been fighting for so long. I don't know, do you agree with this statement, or do you disagree? When do you think the root causes of the problem started? EOKA time in 1963, 103 Turkish villages were burnt down. I remember 1963, when those clashes happened Come on, you were three years old! – In my mind. Yes, I remember. – How you remember? I remember the planes flying and shooting, shouting, the terror. 20th of July '74, Turkish Cypriots won their independence. My uncle died that day. I'm sorry about this. So, I have a bit different interpretation of history...

0:47 You are just explaining the one side of the story You didn't say anything, that no Greek Cypriot died in this, no problem. I didn't say that. – So it's like you're... Let me finish, let me finish. It was a lot of attempts to solve this problem. There were a number of attempts. The most well known, the Annan plan. You didn't vote for Annan plan, or you voted for Annan plan? Against the Annan plan. Against. – Yes. If you had said "Yes", then Cyprus would have been different by now. For the good or for the bad? For your good, for your good. Erdogan, he supported the Annan plan. Türkiye got involved and gave a message to the Turkish Cypriots, that the best way forward would be to say "Yes" to the plan. In 2017, there was Crans Montana meeting to find a way forward. They said, "the game is over." They said, "f*** this s***?" This is very important.

1:32 Everyone in the Greek Cypriot community thinks of you as the "Mr. Two-state solution." Now, I think it's time for you to explain me. What is this vision of a two state solution? Some people say, "you cannot have two states within Cyprus in the European Union." Yes. If they want, they can do it over one night. Over one night. Türkiye would do its utmost to help the Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. They are prepared to give their water to the north and the south. Turkish ports will be open to all the Greek Cypriot ships, also the airspace. It would be a win-win situation for all of us. But for one small island. One small island. You want it to be separate? It's, it's, it's... You have to be realistic. A lot of the people say that you are a puppet of Erdogan.

2:18 So what is your response? You are not independent. I am independent. But if someone pays for your bills, and you are afraid for them to cut you... My friend, I'm not trying... You understand, it's logical question now. Logical question! If you want to go against what Turkey's saying, you can go against? Obviously... You like my president, Christodoulides? What's your opinion about him? He is not cooperating. But he says also you are not cooperating with him. Cyprus has never been as important as it is now, because this region is very important. So critical. We are still living in such a world. Look at Gaza, look at Ukraine. Let's go to Ukraine and Russia. Do you think there is any similarities to what happened here in our island? I don't think there is a similarity. Why?

3:04 What is the difference then, if there is no similarity? The Russians, for their own security, they wanted Crimea and other places in Ukraine. And militaristic ambitions... – Like Turkey. No, no, Turkey had no such plan. Turkey came in... – with similar reasons that they came. You know, my community, the Greek Cypriot community, they don't like you as much as... – They don't know me. They don't know me. – leaders like Akinci If your community got to know me, they will like me even more than Akinci. I can assure you of that. I can assure you of that. So, now you are speaking there to the Greek Cypriots. Speak to them. This podcast with Ersin Tatar, the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community,

3:51 was the most difficult podcast I ever did. It's a very sensitive topic for my country, Cyprus, that this country elected me to be Member of the European Parliament. And because I'm elected politician, to touch the Cyprus problem and speak with the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community, we know that this would bring a lot of backlash, and a lot of people would not like this. But, I think this is the right thing to do, to go and speak with the leader of this community and try to understand them better. Because without understanding of both sides, we cannot progress to a lasting solution. And that's why I took the decision to go and do this podcast.

4:38 In the mainstream media in Cyprus, I was attacked because I did this, but I still think I did the right thing. I did this, not because it was going to be popular. I knew I would get a lot of backlash. I did this because I think it was the right thing to do. And I will continue doing what I think is right, even if it's unpopular. I disagree with a lot of the things that Tatar said in this podcast, but still, I didn't interrupt him that much, and I didn't cut anything from what was said in this conversation. And you are going to see the full raw interview. Enjoy. Go. Okay. First question. Who are you?

5:25 I am Ersin Tatar of this land. I'm a true Turkish Cypriot, born, raised, and basically, I feel that I'm a true Turkish Cypriot. Obviously I'm a Cypriot, but I'm a Turkish Cypriot. You know, there's a lot of discussion about that. Some people say we are Cypriot. Okay. I'm a Cypriot but I'm a Turkish Cypriot. I mean there's a difference because I was born and raised here. My language, my religion, my culture, my background, my father, my mother, my grandfathers, and the generations before. The whole thing, it makes me a true Turkish Cypriot, and believe me, I am a Turkish Cypriot and that's who I am. I mean, from time to time, I have so many challenges, so many discussions,

6:13 so many, you know, I feel sometimes people hit at me, but I never obviously have any question about who I am. I am a Turkish Cypriot, born, bred, raised in this land, in this geography. What makes my character is not only where I was born, obviously it makes a difference it is important where you are born, I am born in Cyprus, but I am from a Turkish background, so I'm a Turkish Cypriot and it's a unique character. You know, I did hundreds of podcasts in my life, this is the only one that I was stressed about. – Don't be stressed You know, it's a very sensitive position to

6:59 be here for me to interview you, a lot of things can go wrong. A lot of things there is a lot of conflict between the two communities for a long time. But you know, what I thought is like, if we cannot sit down and talk, then how are we going to solve our problems in the future. – You should be relaxed, you should be relaxed. So that's why I'm here and I love you. Thank you for taking the time. – You are most welcome. You are most welcome. Okay. So– – I mean, I appreciate what you've been doing as a young man using the social media so bravely, so successfully, and getting to be an MP just using the social media without a party is really a big success. So, I do congratulate you on your success. Thank you. So, you spoke a lot when

7:46 I asked you who you are, about that you are a Turkish Cypriot, Turkish Cypriot, Turkish Cypriot. Like, why do you want so much to identify like this? – Because I wanted to give you a correct version. A correct version. Of a serious question, to a serious question. I mean, I have to do that. – But you didn't speak about that you've been to travel abroad, to study, about your successes in life, and all this stuff, who you are, you are the leader of this community. Like, you only spoke I thought you would follow that. – Okay. I thought you would follow. Who are you? What have you done up to this age? I've done a lot of things. Let me tell you this. I have never stopped. I've always worked, worked, worked, and I'm still working.

8:33 A lot of people ask me where do you find this energy? God's gift. You know, God has given me this life, and the challenges, and the energy that I find in myself. And I just do it, because I believe in this country. I believe in my people, and I also enjoy what I do. If you don't enjoy what you do, you can't do it. So, I've been working since I was a kid. I don't know what I was doing at two or three years, but after that, I remember 1963 for example, when those clashes happened between the two communities. Come on, you were three years old! – In my mind. Yes, I remember. How do you remember? – Yeah. I remember the planes flying and shooting, shouting the terror, and I still feel grief when I remember those days.

9:18 So I don't want anybody to live that again. But we are still living in such a world. Look at Gaza, look at Ukraine. They don't stop. They keep doing it. So, I sometimes ask myself, we value so much our life, our children, our future. But, at the end of the day, look at the world, World War I, World War II, and then all these in the last 100 years. Look at what happened in the last 100 years. Before that, God knows how many wars, how many people killed each other, big wars. This history has seen very big wars. How people can destroy each other just for their own cause without thinking of the other side. When

10:04 you say the other side, they got children, they got young, the aged, and they're all prepared, for their own interest, prepared to destroy the whole world. Look at Russia and Ukraine. That is something that is really tensing me. How do they do it, in this day and age? How do they do that? And they have caused so much death, and poverty, and so much catastrophe. So we shouldn't go through that again. Never again. Never again. So you mentioned a lot of things. You mentioned briefly about the history of Cyprus. We're going to get into that as well later. We're going to get into you said about the conflicts in the war

10:49 right now, with the other countries that are having a war. But let's dig a bit more on this, what you did. You traveled, you went to university in the United Kingdom. Tell us more about you. How many children do you have? Because a lot of people, this is a global audience in Cyprus, to get to know you a bit more. Some weird things about you as well. 11 years old, I went to the English school. I was a kitchener. I had a lot of Greek Cypriot friends. I still keep in touch with some of them. In 1974, I went to the UK, United Kingdom. I went to a school called Forest School. – Why you went? Like, was it the time that you were about to go to the university? – I had two late uncles in London and they called my father and said, send Ersin

11:36 and Erhan, my brother, because you had a war there, we want to look after them. I lost my mother when I was seven years old, so I don't have my mother. So... – How did you lose your mother? She was pregnant but didn't go very well, and we lost her in 1968. And now you have another, how many siblings? My father got married to Mrs. Ismet, so I got two of us, two from Mrs. Ismet's first marriage, and we have a common sister Hava. – Okay. So we are a federal family. Five in total – Five of us, yes. Federal family – Yes So, then I went to London to a school, Forest School, and then

12:23 after Forest School, I went to Jesus College Cambridge, read economics, and then I joined a few banks, and then I went to Price Waterhouse, became a charter accountant in London, with Price Waterhouse, as you know, international firm. And then I worked for a number of banks, and then I worked for Asil Nadir. Do you remember Asil Nadir? He passed away a few months ago, at his firm called Polly Peck. I had a lot of experience at the age of 26-28. – How you got this position? You were very young to get a very important position in that. – I worked very hard. Why, you gave some money to him? How... He paid me money. I worked very hard. You see, after I came I became a charter accountant when I was 25. Charter accountant is important.

13:09 As you know you have charter accountant in the south. A big– –A lot. It's a big industry. It's a good qualification. So, with that I managed to find these jobs, and then with Asil Nadir and Polly Peck, was international public company and then he had some trouble. So I came to Türkiye and worked in a number of companies. Late 90s, I worked for a company called Show TV. I was the general manager of this big Turkish media company, including TV and newspapers. – So this is where you understood how to manipulate the media? Yes. I worked nearly 10 years there, and then I set up a channel here – A channel, TV channel? Yeah, Kanal T. I sold it but it's still there.

13:57 For 30 years I had a channel here. – How much did you sell it for? Not a lot of money but I got rid of the expenses. Every month, I had to pay the satellite more than $10,000 and I was tired. My wife was looking after it, but she also got tired. So we sold it to a good friend. So you are not going to tell us how much? Or nobody knows how much? – I don't know. You don't know? – Because we had debts and he took over the debts. – Okay. And he paid some money, but she wouldn't tell me how much she got. So I don't know. She declared it. She paid a lot of tax. So net of tax, we haven't got much money. But at least I got rid of the... – of the expenses. Having the... – Yes. The headache. How many people did this company have? – About 50 people.

14:44 50 people. So you've been managing people for a long time now. Of course. And then I went to the politics, what was it? In 2000, 2001 Exactly when I was born. – When were you born? 2000. A few years after that I joined Ulusal Birlik party, United National Party here in the north. Then I became member of parliament. I became minister of finance. When did you become a member of parliament? – 2009 Became the minister of finance for nearly five years and then after that I worked for the party as a member of parliament and then I became the leader of the party through general assembly and then I became prime minister for two years and then I became president. Now nearly

15:31 five years now I'm the president. – And now there is upcoming elections. – In October. Are you worried? Are you stressed? If you are not worried, if you αre not stressed, you might lose it. So I feel that you know, it's kind of a challenge. So we have to work hard. That's what I tell my colleagues. We have to work hard. – So now you are taking an equal time to run, or like it takes a lot of time for you to do campaigning and all this stuff. Or no? My job entails campaigning also, because when I do my job, I am always on the TV, I'm always in public, I am always attending meetings – So you've been campaigning for five years? Yes, I'm tonight going to Azarbaijan, for an

16:18 international meeting. And I will be obviously saying a few things and to all the media. This morning Colin Stewart was here, the representative of the United Nations General Secretary. We discussed with him, the future meeting in New York, with Christodoulides, Greece, Türkiye, and United Kingdom. They will be represented there so it's all about, you know, being in public and sharing what you know, what you think with the public, in general. So, it's all a matter of doing your job, but sharing what you have with your public, with your people. So at the end of the day, the people will decide who to run for the next five years. – So, what is the

17:06 biggest challenge that you face in this five years, you think? – Well, we see... we are a state, as you might appreciate when you go around in the north. We have a state with all the institutions. We have our own parliament. We have our own courts. We have our own institutions. We have our own ministries. We have our own police. We have our own courts, municipalities. Whatever you have in any country, we have it in the north. And we are different people. Okay. We are Cypriots but as I tell you, we are Turkish Cypriots, and it is our self-determination right that we govern ourselves. So it is a challenge, obviously, to be acknowledged. We have some political problems, because unfortunately for us

17:53 the Republic of Cyprus which was founded in 1960, and we are Turkish Cypriots, co-founders of the Republic of Cyprus there is no majority-minority connection here in this land. When you read the history and how things evolved, there are two peoples. Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots. Don't look at the numbers. We have a lot of people who left the country and a lot of Greek Cypriots left the country. We have probably 300,000 in the UK, another 100,000 in Australia, but probably half a million in Türkiye. So there is a Turkish Cypriot element How many do you think are in the world? More than a million. –More than a million? Living here? Because... – Half a million. Half a million Turkish Cypriots.

18:38 and our poet, Behçet Kemal, said we have twice as many below the ground. Those people who left, those people who died, they have poems, they have music, they have this, they have that and they're all around. So we are... the other side should appreciate this. We are a people. We are a Turkish Cypriot "nation", quote unquote. So we have to have the respect that we deserve and we have to coexist in this island. –So, as I... Because coexisting is very important. – As I understand, your biggest challenge is that the only country that recognizes you is Turkey and that is what you are explaining. This is the challenge that I ask you. Political diplomatic recognition, yes, Türkiye.

19:23 However, we have a lot of countries, Turkic countries, Pakistan and a number of other countries who do have respect for us, who understand us, who have a lot of cultural, economic ties developed with Nothern Cyprus. But when it comes to political recognition, obviously they have a problem because the United Nations sealed the decision they took in 1964 that we only recognize the Republic of Cyprus. Until a solution, they will not recognize the Turkish Cypriot element. But however, it's been 62 years and we are still looking for a solution. Now this is difficult to explain because for the last 62 years, a number of

20:09 comprehensive settlement programs have all been on the table, but they have not managed to reach an agreement because– – You are you are not hopeful for the future. That we can find a solution We should always be hopeful. We should never lose our hope. However, Greek Cypriots should understand that if we are going to have just, viable, sustainable solution, they should respect the Turkish Cypriot element, that we deserve our sovereignty. Sovereignty is a key word. So we have Greek Cypriot sovereign people in the south, but you should also recognize that there is sovereign people in the north and we should know how to

20:55 coexist the north and the south together. If we can unite in this coexistence and learn how to live side by side in a neighbor relationship especially in the European context, I hope one day, we as a different state are also in Europe. Then in Europe you can cross, you can buy land, you can build your own home, you can establish business. – I want you to explain to me exactly what you think the two-state solution will look like, but later. I want first to understand. So everyone in the Greek Cypriot community thinks of you as the "Mr. Two-State Solution". – Yeah. So, we want to understand also like how did you came up

21:41 with this solution and also was it from a young age that you believed in this? How it evolved. – I have articles 30 years ago. – Explain us. 30 years ago I have articles that the best way forward would be a two-state solution because how things developed and evolved, Greek Cypriots because they are the stronger community, because they have more in numbers, and they have connections, and the 1964 decision. Therefore, they will never give up and they will always want the Republic of Cyprus to continue and the Turkish Cypriots somehow be kind of a part of the Republic of Cyprus as a minority. That's our fear. That's our discomfort. So, to be able to coexist in

22:30 a sustainable way, the two words that are important, are coexistence and sustainability. Because it's no good, like in 1960, you have an agreement and after 3 years, everything down the road. So we have to have a sustainable solution. To find a sustainable solution, you have to satisfy both sides. To satisfy both sides, first, security, and the other one is being able to determine your own future. This community, Turkish Cypriots, deserve– – But you are starting to explain me how do you imagine it. So 30 years ago you had an article. – Yes. You remember when you were 18, 17, 16 that you believed this, or when did you started shaping this opinion? Explain.

23:15 30. When I was 30 years old. – 30 years old. I used to listen to my father. Before, you used to listen to your father. What did your father say? – He said you'll never be able to share the Republic of Cyprus, because the Greek Cypriots think by and large that the Republic of Cyprus belongs to them. It's a unitary state. Whereas when it was founded in 1960, the understanding was that, as per the Constitution, under which Makarios for the Greek Cypriots, Dr Fazil Kucuk for the Turkish Cypriots, and it was what they call a functional federalism. Functional federalism. But the Greek Cypriots, with maybe some people from Greece, their

24:02 pressure, because always I don't know whether you appreciate this or not, but junta in Greece and their collaborators here, EOKA B, always had in mind unification with Greece EOKA, Enosis, unification with Greece has always been according to us, the church's ultimate national aim and therefore the Turkish Cypriots always feared that, and in 1964 when things started going wrong, after the '63 events it all became apparent that what was being done, was with Grivas and the others coming from Greece, somehow, unite Cyprus to Greece, and create the big

24:47 Greece empire because Greece, Rhodes, Crete, Eastern Mediterranean with all these seas, and with Cyprus, as apparently, from Greece they called Cyprus the 13th island. Unification of Cyprus to Greece would have created with the seas around, the big Greece empire. And Türkiye was also very discomfortable with this, because they didn't want to be surrounded by all these Greek sovereignty and Türkiye said we will never let it go. We will always help these Turkish Cypriots, they are fighters. They're fighting for their own independence and we will never allow after the British rule, the island to be united to Greece.

25:33 And that's how it all started. And now we have two states because of all this. If Greek Cypriots at the time, did not have the ambition to unite Cyprus with Greece, Enosis, probably we wouldn't have had this. The Republic of Cyprus might have been a success story in the Eastern Mediterranean. Look at Singapore. Look at Dubai. They are very rich, very prosperous, stability, economic progress, a lot of foreign investment, hotels, foreign companies, service industry, with your accountants, with your lawyers. A lot of things could have been done. But unfortunately, in order to succeed that, we wanted to unite Cyprus to Greece and all

26:18 these things happened. And on the 15th of July '74, as you know, junta and the collaborators here, they overthrew Makarios. They overthrew Makarios. Can you imagine? Coup d'état. Look, in the history of Cyprus, One of the most tragic days, not the 20th of July. 20th of July is a victory for Turkish Cypriots because 20th of July '74, Turkish Cypriots won their independence. We became– – My uncle died that day I'm sorry about this – So I have a bit different interpretation of history but I'm here to understand you, not to say – We also lost a lot of people. We also lost a lot of people I'm sorry for them. I'm sorry

27:05 for you, and I share you condolences. What I'm saying is, what went wrong is on the 15th of July '74 when they did a coup d' état junta in Greece and their collaborators EOKA B they overthrew Makarios with a view, Samson and the others to unite Cyprus to Greece. – We're going to get there but since you like history and you got into the history topic, let's forget the other stuff, and let's get into the history topic. When do you think the root causes of the problem started? What time? 1950? When do you think they started the conflict? During the British times, the EOKA movement, according to them, the British should

27:50 leave the island and Cyprus should be united with Greece, but Türkiye got involved, because Türkiye said we lease the island not to Greece. We lease the island to the British. So if the British are going to go, we will not let the island be united with Greece. We will do something else. And they had in mind, at the time, taksim. Dividing the island for the sake of Turkish Cypriots, because also Turkey for her own security, for her own military interests, also wanted a Turkish element in the north. And we Turkish Cypriots also, obviously we wanted to survive in security and in stability here in Cyprus. So we fought. We

28:38 fought and we suffered. We moved three times. We migrated three times in the island. – You mean in the EOKA times? Yes. EOKA time in 1963. 103 Turkish villages were burnt down. 103 Turkish villages. And half of the Turkish population had to move around, and at least a third were living in tents in Nicosia, for years, under tents, with no salary, with no money, very poor, in all difficulties of life, but we survived, and on the 15th of July '74 when coup d'état against Makarios, that gave us a chance, and Denktas asked Türkiye to take this opportunity to come in because as a guarantor power in the 1960

29:26 agreement, Türkiye had the right to intervene, because the Constitution was broken down on the 15th of July. So with the constitution broken down with the coup d'état, Türkiye used the opportunity to come in, and then a new age started. A new page started in Cyprus after 20th July 1974 and that was obviously our savior. Turkish Cypriots became much more, obviously, independent, and since then we have been living in the north, obviously, with no fear of security, which is very important for Turkish Cypriots.

30:12 So I will, you allow me to express myself how I think, so you know, you are just explaining kind of the one side of the story, and like, I think you didn't say anything, that no Greek Cypriot died in this, no problem. – I didn't say that. So, it's like you're, let me finish, let me finish. So I think this is kind of the problem, that I'm a new politician. I don't have these biases, nobody controls me. I'm just here as an independent thinker and trying to find out myself. So I think the problem here that we have is like, there is two sides of the story, and nobody learns both of the sides of the story. Here in this community, in the Turkish Cypriot community,

30:57 they learn one side of the story. In the Greek Cypriot side, they learn the other side of the story, and that's why we've kind of been fighting for so long. I don't know, do you agree with this statement, or do you disagree? Obviously Greek Cypriots also suffered, I cannot say otherwise, I mean a lot of Greek Cypriots who lost their dear friend, or family, had to move to the south, yes, but Turkish Cypriots suffered for years before '74. Before '74, suffering, Turkish Cypriots. you have no Greek Cypriots... here and there might be, but 99% of the suffering, before 1974, was Turkish Cypriots. Believe you me, Turkish Cypriots were taken

31:44 from their own homes, from their gardens, from their working place, and taken So you agree with me, it's both of the communities that suffered. It's not a competition now, who suffered more. You have to understand – We need to acknowledge both You have to understand, this is very important. Turkish Cypriots suffered before '74. Greek Cypriots did not suffer before '74. They did suffer. There is a lot of deaths and missing people from before as well. After '74. – No, there is from '63 as well, the missing people from... Very few, very few, because Turkish... Don't dismiss that like this – Turkish Cypriots were being attacked. You look at the history. If you look at the history, you will find that before '74, it was the Turkish Cypriot who were

32:30 being attacked. In 1974, when the Turkish army came in, the balance started changing because obviously Türkiye, according to us, intervened because of the 1960 Constitution. Türkiye had the right to come in, to intervene as a guarantor power. Britain didn't. Britain just watched from the bases. I mean Britain could also intervene, because Britain, United Kingdom, is also still a guarantor power, but they preferred to watch. Okay, let's go past from '74. A bit the history, because the history didn't start... It was after '74. Let's talk about how this conflict evolved. Do you think, it was a lot of attempts to solve this problem,

33:18 and all this stuff. Do you think, what were the attempts that were successful? What were the... There were a number of attempts. A lot of times. United Nations comprehensive settlement proposals, since I was a young chap, I remember. A lot of names came. United Nations Secretary Generals. They all had plans. Pérez de Cuéllar. You were not born then. Before you were born, he was there and a few others. But the most well known, the Annan plan. 20 years ago, 2004-5 the Annan plan. That was a serious plan.

34:05 It took two or three years to be readable You didn't vote for Annan plan, or you voted for Annan plan? – Against the Annan plan. Against. – Yes. I was in the 35%, with Denktas, Eroglu and my– – You didn't like the solution? Well, I feared that the Turkish Cypriots, at the end of the day, would lose out. I feared, that's how we felt. However, as you know, 65% of the Turkish Cypriots said "yes", because Turkish Cypriots, by and large were frustrated with the situation, and they wanted at any cost to find a solution to the Cyprus problem. So that we are

34:50 you know, with international committee is aware, now we are under embargo, still under embargos. We are fed up with these embargos. So my people, by and large 65% and I respect them, they said 65% "Yes". But the Greek Cypriots, 76% said "no" to the plan. And when it first– – What is your assessment why the Greek Cypriots said "no"? Because... They didn't have any motivation? What is the... because the Europeans, okay, the European Union, somehow, I don't know how it happened. They said to the Greek Cypriots, accept it or don't accept it, it doesn't matter. You will be a member of the European Union. So the Greek Cypriots said, we will be in the European Union anyway. So they

35:37 prefer to say "no". If the question had been, say "yes", and then become a member of the European Union, probably you would have said yes. So I spoke a lot times with... – You understand me? Ozdil Nami. Ozdil Nami was the negotiator for a lot of years. – I know him. I know him. And he says similar things, there is no consequence. There is no motivation for the Greek Cypriots to say "yes". – So they said "no". They said "no". But if they had said "yes", then Cyprus would have been different by now. For the good or for the bad? – For your good. For your good. For the Turkish Cypriot community? Look, this is my own idea, my own conviction, that it would have been good for the

36:22 Greek Cypriots, because the island would have been in Europe united. Okay, the Turkish Cypriots would have had some rights to stay in the north. But the state in the north would not have been as much sovereign as I would have liked to have seen it. It would have had some sovereignty rights, but not to the extent that would have satisfied me. And obviously, after some years, because Türkiye is still not in Europe, and I don't know when Türkiye will be in Europe. When Türkiye is outside of Europe, – I don't know as well. It's a bit difficult. Okay, but Greece is in Europe. Cyprus would have been in Europe, united as it were. And according to me and my friends who discussed this, these are top

37:08 level politically, that would have been effectively Enosis, because, Greece and Cyprus in the European Union, with no restriction to migration, capital, investment, all kinds of things as you know, free in the European Union. If you think we were going to be an oasis, then why you voted against it? It's crazy. I don't want Enosis. Enosis is... – Not Enosis, like the Annan plan. You said it would be an oasis. Not Enosis, oasis. You said that... No, I didn't... – Oh, you didn't say oasis. I misunderstood you. Yeah, you misunderstood me. So, basically,

37:54 it would have been in your interest to have said yes to the Annan plan. That's my... And to summarize to the Turkish Cypriots... – In the long run, the Turkish Cypriots.. would have lost out In the long run. – In the long run the Turkish Cypriots would have lost out, because I believe always for my own people, Türkiye should also have a say, because Türkiye is my guarantor power, my motherland, and some troops on the island safeguard all my security which is very important for me. As a young boy, I remember what I went through, the fear, me and my family and others, how we were, because we didn't have the

38:40 protection, the security. Very important. And I believe very much, this security, also reflects very positively for the Greek Cypriots. But the EU regulations, and all this stuff will protect it. – Do you believe that? Do you really believe that? As a young, very successful, now member of parliament, do you really believe that the European way of security would have safeguarded the interests of the Turkish Cypriots in this complicated island? Do you really believe that? Give me an honest answer. I think so. Maybe, okay, let me explain, because like, 70-60% of the regulations that we have in Cyprus comes from Europe. So, and we are forced to comply. And we'll have punishments if we don't and all this stuff. So kind of the

39:27 Europe is not perfect. I'm sorry. It's not perfect. What will happen in Europe after 50 years? Can you guess? I cannot guess. – I cannot guess as well. Let's hope for the best. – Hope for the best. But I want more than a hope after what I have been through, what I have been through, at my age, I want more than a hope. I want guarantee. I want something solid. – Okay. Now, I think it's time for you to explain me what is this vision of a two-state solution? How do you envision it? – Coexistence on this island. Coexistence. Look, my vision.... – Explain. I have a lot of people who can criticize me but I, knowing my people, knowing my people's way of life, our secularism, our way of life, family life, Turkish Cypriots. We are as

40:14 a character quite European we are Turkish Cypriots, we are very obviously connected to Türkiye, our motherland, for a lot of reasons, our culture, our religion, our language, our roots, our traditions. We are very much Turkish in that way. But I believe that as a character, way of life, we are also Europeans, and European mechanisms, yes, do work very well. So I hope that one day, as a sovereign state, the Turkish Cypriot state, sovereign state, is also a member of the European Union and they can very easily design that. Some people say, you cannot

41:01 have two states within Cyprus in the European Union. Yes, if they want they can do it over one night. Over one night. Because we have all the elements necessary. We have our own territory. We have our own democracy. We have our own people with our own ethnicity, different culture, religion, language, whatever. And also we have connections. So it qualifies us to be a different sovereign state. But in this beautiful island in the Eastern Mediterranean, I want to have a neighboring relationship with my Greek Cypriot friends, and if we are both in the European Union, with security arrangements, and with some Turkish element, obviously, because Türkiye is a guarantor power. Türkiye has got troops on the island for all security. Turkish

41:49 troops, the security that they provide is also a security for you, because if you don't have this comfort and there's crash, this would not only reflect on Turkish Cypriots, it would reflect negatively on you also. So we want to have a set of arrangements, maybe we will call it "New Set of Affairs", where we can coexist, but be in the European Union together, and enjoy all the virtues of the European Union, with these security arrangements that we all deserve, so that the next generation lives in a much more prosperous, more stable country, the island of Cyprus. Further, Türkiye has always said that if we are going to have stability in the

42:35 Eastern Mediterranean, and with their relationship with Greece, a lot of common interest in the agency and the seas around, Türkiye would do its utmost to help the Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, and I'm sure that they are sincere, because they are prepared to give their water to the north and the south, because as you know, from the Taurus mountains, we have a lot of water flowing into the sea. Still. We have some of it. They said, we can put another pipe, maybe another two pipes, and provide the water to Cyprus in this global warming climate where we have shortage of water, and connect with a cable, and we can have sustainable, at a much better cost, electricity,

43:20 energy. And if we have peace, if you have stability, if you have settlement, Turkish ports will be open to all the Greek Cypriot ships. As you know, you have a lot of ships, you have very strong fleet, and you would enjoy not only Turkish ports and the business with it, also the airspace at the moment, because Türkiye is not recognizing the Republic of Cyprus, all the planes coming from far east Russia, they have to go through Athens and down to Larnaca, so it would be something, really, a win-win situation for all of us in this prosperous island, with a lot of investment opportunities in the future, for our next generation, I think.

44:07 So you want the two communities to start cooperating, and to... –Of course. For all the embargos to lift, and all this stuff. But this is you getting everything you imagined but this is, I'm asking you. You asked me, before. Do I believe in this utopia, and I'm asking you, do you believe that this is possible? – Of course it's possible. So long as if you wake up one morning, and you say these Turkish Cypriots in the north, they are also Cypriots and they deserve to enjoy the virtues of this island as much as we do, and let's respect them. Let's give our hand to them. We can all succeed together. Win-win situation. It's so easy, because we have all the infrastructure for it. Look, if we didn't have all this after '74, you there, I here,

44:55 we would have still had a lot of problems to discuss. Now at least we have our own state of affairs, our own government, our own parliament, our own municipalities, our this and that, so you don't have to basically discuss all these problems. How are we going to share the resources? Look, this is very important. To share is a problem. In any family, you have some production. How do you distribute between the daughter and the son? Problem. Now we have been separated. Okay. I have to look after my own affairs. You look after your affairs. I'm not involved in your municipalities. You are not involved in my municipalities. I get on with my own affairs. I've got Türkiye, my mother, helping me with anything that I need.

45:44 Türkiye has a lot of billions of dollars in investments. Look, since this is another important thing I'm doing. – How many billions do you think, in a year? Every year there's constantly Turkish assistance, financially – How much? It's $500 million. – $500 billion. No, $500 million. – $500 million. Every year. The water projects, we call it... – You mean directly from the government. – Yes, yes. For our roads, for our hospitals, for the budget deficit, constantly. Military expenditures is not in this number. Military expenditure, to keep the army for our peace, and for our security I don't know what the cost of that is. – As a... you don't know? Come on.

46:31 What... – It's a secret, you don't want to tell me What the cost of maintaining so many troops on the island for the Turkish army, I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. – You are afraid to tell me? I don't know. – Come on. Okay. So basically, what I'm telling you, we have done a lot. – But for one small island. One small island, you want it to be separated. It's... if we cannot talk together... You have to be realistic. Unless you are realistic, and you just live in a dream world, you never get there. You have to be realistic. You have to look at the ground, what we say, what does the ground tell you? Turkish Cypriots are here,

47:17 Greek Cypriots are here. Okay. But if you can be in European Union, then we can all coexist together, because in the European Union, you can cross the border, you can buy this, you can buy that. I can work in Limassol. You can work in Kyrenia. We can create all sorts of new arrangements, where we can coexist with European values, but also have the security, because at the end of the day, as we can see in all these other countries at the moment, where they're fighting each other, security is the most crucial element of one's comfort. If you don't have security, nobody's comfortable. You mention again the other wars. Let's go to Ukraine and Russia. Do you think there is any similarities to what

48:04 happened here in our island? To where, Ukraine? Well, Russia, the European Union, the America and they got stuck in the middle. So, I don't think there is a similarity here. It's something else. Here... – What is the difference? Here, you got the Turkish Cypriots, you got the Greek Cypriots. – You have Türkiye, Greece Greek Cypriots, somehow in the past, some elements in Greece. They got you too excited that Cyprus should be united with Greece. I think Cyprus joining Greece would have only helped Greece become a

48:51 big empire, from Greece all the way here. There were some, maybe church, maybe some military people thinking that, and they used you. On 15th July '74 they are the main perpetrators. Perpetrators. I don't think it was so much Makarios and the Greek Cypriots. Perpetrators from Greece that they created those conditions and they moved in the coup d'état, overthrowing Makarios. Makarios also believed in maybe Hellenism, to make Cyprus a hellenic island. I have to say this, I mean Makarios with his robes, he was a

49:36 clever man, clergyman, but he also believed that the whole island should be hellenic. He doesn't believe that the island should have belonged to both communities, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. They all believed from their history that this is a hellenic island and it should be purely Greek. Turkish Cypriots, just a minority. Turkish Cypriots never accepted to be a minority. Because when you look at our history, remember, this island was part of the Ottoman Empire for 350 years. From 1571 until 1923, Lausanne agreement, for 350 years, this island was an Ottoman Empire basically governed

50:22 by the Turks and the Turkish Cypriots were here, in a way, masters of the island. And after 1875, a lot of Turks went back because of the English rule, Greek Cypriot population in 1878 was about 90 to 100,000. By 1960 when the British left, Greek Cypriot population was more than 400,000. So what happened, was in that 80 to 90 years. But that doesn't mean that because we moved out, that we forgot our own land. Every Turkish Cypriot, wherever he is, whether he's in Türkiye, whether he or she is in the UK, whether he or she is in Australia, our heart is with Cyprus, because we are all Turkish Cypriots, from Cyprus But you confused me, the question was, what is the difference between the

51:08 conflict of Ukraine and Russia, and I'm not sure if I understood. – I don't think there is a similarity. Why? – I don't think there is a similarity. I think Ukrainian... – What is the difference then? If there is no similarity. The fundamental difference. –The fundamental difference, Ukraine is a different country. They got stuck between the Europeans and the Americans and the Russians. The Russians for their own security, they wanted Crimea and other places in Ukraine, with their own security and militaristic ambitions. And obviously... – Like Turkey. No, no, Türkiye had no such plan. Türkiye came in... – with similar reasons that they came. No, no, no. Turkey came here to protect the

51:54 interests of Turkish Cypriots because Türkiye is a guarantor power and the motherland of Turkish Cypriots. Türkiye never had any vision or idea to invade another country. It's not an invasion. It's just an intervention to protect the Turkish Cypriots. – But this is what just the Russians say as well. They invade... They have an intervention, whatever, military intervention, to take care of the minorities, the Russians, the Russophiles and all this. This is exactly what they say I'm just saying it. Maybe I'm... but this is exactly what Russia says about the... I don't agree with that. – Okay. I don't agree with that. I'm telling you... – but this is what they say, the same things I don't agree with that. Look. Turkish Cypriots are

52:42 essential, because when you look at the history, Okay, the Greeks increased in number during the British times. Having said that, I respect it. But we have at the end of the day, two peoples, and when the British moved out, this constitution was designed, and it was a common partnership. Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots, together. There is no majority, no minority. When you talk about Ukraine, you got the Ukrainians and some Russians living in Crimea and other regions. That is majority-minority relationship according to me, it's Ukraine. Here we are talking about a common country. The Republic of Cyprus that was founded in 1960 belonged to both communities. Both

53:28 peoples. Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots as sovereign as Greek Cypriots. You didn't have more sovereignty than a Turkish Cypriot. You see, this is very important. This is very important. – Yeah, but the same... The concept of sovereignty is critical. But the same in the Donbas regions of Ukraine as well. To understand the Cyprus problem, you have to understand the concept of sovereignty. And that's where we have not been able to have a consensus, because Greek Cypriots, although they signed it, look, this is very important, I remind you, I can show you. You have Dr. Fazil Kucuk's signature, you have Makarios' signature in the 1960 agreement. Nobody forced him, he in London and Zurich he

54:13 signed for the Greek Cypriots, and Dr. Fazil Kucuk signed for the Turkish Cypriots. So we build it together. Co-ownership. How can we then push this out and say, this is mine. That's what happened to the Turkish Cypriots. We were pushed out. Dr. Fazil Kucuk, and his team, and us, we were pushed out, and the Republic of Cyprus only for the Greek Cypriots. And the Republic of Cyprus in the south, at the moment, is the Republic of Cyprus that was founded in 1960. Okay. Let's move a bit to more foreign policy. Turkey. What's your relationship with Turkey? What is your relationship with Erdogan? Do you love him? Do you meet him often? Do you speak with him often? Tell us. Erdogan is a great world leader, as you can see. Obviously we are lucky that he

55:01 thinks very highly of the Turkish Cypriots. Obviously for political reasons, he has opponents and the others who think otherwise, but in the last 22 years that he's in power, A lot of years. 22 years, Turkish Cypriots have never seen before so much aid, help, and protection from anybody else. Because he has been in power for so long, he's been very generous. This project that has brought in the water, it's at least a billion dollars. With current cost, probably more than a billion dollars. We got all these new roads. We got new hospitals. We have got a lot of

55:47 investments in hotels, universities. If you go and see our industrial sites, we have a lot of factories, a lot of plants. And with now, I don't know whether you heard in May we had this Teknofest festival where you had... – Yes, he came. Thousands of people and Selçuk Bayraktar, the leader said, now we are going to do our best push that we kind of bring in technology to north Cyprus, and hopefully that north Cyprus will also be a successful technology center. Very important. Tourism, universities, being a financial center, being a technology center. All these have been created by Erdogan's vision, because

56:33 Erdogan believes that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, as an independent Turkish state, should be more and more strengthened, should be a hope for the future. Obviously for the sake of Turkish Cypriots, but also for Turkish military and economic interests of the region. Because when you look at the map, Türkiye has got 2,000 kilometers from the east to the west, İskenderun to Kuşadası, 2,000 kilometers. The longest coastline to the Eastern Mediterranean is with Türkiye. All the other countries have less. And obviously,

57:19 with the new concepts like geostrategy, geopolitics, as they say, and the airspace, the Turkish Cypriot state in the north is of critical value, to us and to Türkiye because of the seas around, with energy potential and with the interest in the sea with regard to militaristic, and economic, and other interests, and the airspace, it's very important. So when you look at the history of Cyprus, I believe Cyprus has never been as important as it is now. Cyprus, at the moment, is at its highest value, in terms of status, because this region is very important. I believe and I'm told, that 70% of the world trade

58:04 goes through near Cyprus, Eastern Mediterranean, from the far east, Suez Canal, all the ships and vessels, energy and the other business potential, go through around Cyprus, Limassol, maybe Kyrenia, and go to Europe. So critical. In the middle of the world, as if I looked at the map it's the center of the world. Cyprus. So important, so critical. Only 3 hours to mainland Europe, maybe two and a half hours, only two and a half hours into the Middle East and well connected with everywhere. If we have peace on the island, stable political settlement with Turkish support, with European support, with the

58:50 potential that we have with the Middle East and Europeans, this island would, I am sure, in very short time, could surpass Dubai and other business centers. It can flourish. It can be so prosperous that... – I think so as well. We will forget all the things that we suffered in the past. We will forget it all. Whenever you have a problem, you call Erdogan? If it's important, because he is the leader of Türkiye. Türkiye has 86 million, 10 million in Europe. We have got 96 million Turkish citizens and other important things that he has to do. So how often do you call him? Maybe a month. Once a month. – Once a month. And, whatever big

59:37 problem you have, he tries to help. He tries to help. Thank you. I respect him for that. Yes. Look at these buildings. It's a huge building. – I proposed to him when he visited me, four and a half years ago, I said look, this is a colonial house, and we are not, you know – Very few people inside. We can't do our job here now. And it was raining that day. And he came with three planes, with hundreds of people, and they couldn't come in, because it's just two rooms, and he said to me, it's about time that you know, we build a new thing. A new building for the presidential office and then I found this land and he helped,

1:00:24 it took a long time, but there you are. You walk this part, down the road, parliament, high court presidential palace, and you can see, I mean this is historical monuments now. This we have for ages. It's a landmark. So how, but Erdogan's view, in the long run it changed, because he supported the Annan plan at one point and like, how do you feel that he evolved his views? I discussed in the past with him, I said, I was opposed to the plan, you supported the plan. He told me, yes, I supported the plan. I discussed it with Annan and the others. I said to most of the others, not now in politics. They

1:01:09 gone. New people came. But I am still here after 22 years. And he told me that they all let him down. Because... – They all let him down. They all let him down because they promised him that if Greek Cypriots were to say "no" to the plan, they told him, look, make sure that Turkish Cypriots say "yes" to the plan. He said, I did my work. I did a lot of hard work. What work you mean? – Because Denktas was opposed to the plan. Türkiye got involved and gave a message to the Turkish Cypriots that the best way forward would be to say "yes" to the plan. – We can talk about later the power of Turkey that has... 65% said yes. Obviously, it's important the

1:01:55 message that comes. But he was promised, by the Europeans, that if the Turkish Cypriots say "yes", no matter what the Greek Cypriots do, if they were to say "no", then the embargos and isolation restrictions on Turkish Cypriots will be lifted. Look, can you tell me that anything has been lifted on Turkish Cypriots? It's been 20 years, and we still don't have direct rights. We don't have direct trade. We don't have direct contacts. We are not recognized. So he told me, Erdogan, President Erdogan told me, that they let him down very badly. They promised him and he went out of his way to give this message to

1:02:41 Turkish Cypriots to say "yes". And then, he also promised, and we were all let down. Turkish Cypriots were let down and Erdogan was let down. – So that's why you think he's shifting towards a support of a two-state solution? –After the Annan plan, there were a lot of other engagements. Mr. Talat, who was obviously in favor of the Annan plan with his party, he did a lot of work. After the Annan plan there was other arrangements, never worked out. And then with Akinci, in 2017 there was Crans Montana meetings, a lot of meetings, to find a way forward. Guterres worked very hard with Türkiye and others. Boris Johnson was there, in Crans Montana. By the way, I went to see him in

1:03:26 London last week. I met Boris Johnson and he did tell me the number of days he spent at Crans Montana, but miserably failed because he also thought that Greek Cypriots wouldn't... Also Erdogan you think was supporting also Crans Montana? – Yes, but after Crans Montana, they said... What was this? – The game is over. They said the game is over. – Can you explain? So they said f*** this s***? They said the game is over and obviously I was watching from outside. I said now it's about time to bring this new policy on the table. Two-state solution. Then I did that, I won the election, and it's been, look, nearly five years, we are trying to understand, to explain this two-state policy

1:04:12 to the world, and by and large we have done it. What you done? No... You didn't do it, come on. – Everybody knows, Everybody knows that there are two states in Cyprus – Who everybody knows? You mean Turkey? Everybody knows Everybody knows, Turkish Cypriots have their own state, Greek Cypriots have their own state. When I discuss this with the leaders and other people of influence, they tell me, yes, we understand. We sympathize. Turkish Cypriots have been treated unjustly. A lot of... Let... – A lot of double standards. But, we hope that you

1:04:57 will find this political settlement with the Greek Cypriots. But to them I tell them, Greek Cypriots are a recognized state, because of the 1964 decision in the Security Council, 61 years ago, 4th of March 1964, that decision. That decision was taken, Republic of Cyprus became a pure Greek republic, expecting that in a few years time, there would be a solution to the problem, but we still don't have a solution after 61 years. So, the way that the Turkish Cypriots have been treated is so unfair. So unfair. I keep telling them, and they understand, but they say, unfortunately not much we can do. The two people, Greek Cypriots

1:05:43 and Turkish Cypriots, should somehow find an agreement. How are you going to find an agreement? Because your understanding of federalism is so different to our understanding. I mean over time, this has quite obviously been exposed. What is exposed? Greek Cypriot understanding of federalism especially in the European Union, is a unitary state. This is very important. You have to understand this. Greek Cypriot understanding of federalism in the European Union is a unitary state. No Turkish Cypriot, whatever his or her view, would support a unitary state, because all Turkish Cypriots, at the end of the day, yes, we all want a solution, but we have to have our own

1:06:29 self-determination. Sovereignty right is your self-determination. You have to understand all this. Do you understand what I mean? You might not agree, but I hope you understand what I say. Yeah I understand what you mean. So, a lot of people in the European Parliament, they say that I'm a puppet. Sometimes of Putin, because sometimes I support some of the stuff that Russia is saying. Sometimes they say that we need to start diplomacy, and solve the problem, and not continue the war. Sometimes they say that I'm a puppet of Elon Musk, because he reposts me on social media, and all this stuff. A lot of the people say that you are a puppet of Erdogan. So,

1:07:14 what is your response? to this? – I keep telling these people and they don't answer me. Turkish Cypriots should know, this two-state solution is my idea. Erdogan supported the Annan plan, you told me, and then at Crans Montana they were there for a federal republic, and I saw this, and I was the leader of the United National Party, and then, when I became prime minister, I put in the protocol with Kudret Özersay, who was my coalition partner, two-state solution. And then with that two-state solution, a new policy, I won the presidential election, and I put it on the table, and Türkiye, they said, they discussed and they said, okay, we will

1:08:00 support this new policy. So, how am I a puppet? My way of life, secularism, everything, I am what I am. I am what I was when I was a young man. If you look at my family, my way of life, whatever I do, I drink. I enjoy life, everything. might be quite different to their way of life, and nobody interferes with my life. Nobody interferes with my life. I respect him. He respects me. But on national issues, we think together. We think the same thing. He thinks that the Turkish Republic of Nothern Cyprus, Turkish Cypriot state, should

1:08:46 survive. I believe my state should survive. I also believe that Türkiye is a motherland country, a guarantor power, and we should have a respected relationship between Türkiye and north Cyprus. That's what we have, every year we have financial and economic package and Türkiye keeps helping the Turkish Cypriots because we are under embargos and isolation, and therefore we don't generate enough income to meet the salaries and the investment that is required to, kind of, progress with new hospitals, new roads and other requirements, because all the time this place is growing. As it grows, we need new investment in our roads, in our hospitals, in infrastructure, in our

1:09:33 communications, the whole thing. And basically, we cooperate with motherland Türkiye. We cooperate. We cooperate, not only for economic progress, welfare, but also for security. We are living in a critical world. We have danger from outside. Türkiye with her logistics. They have satellites. They have planes. They have also some aircraft and the ships around. – They are very strong. And they are the second biggest power in NATO. Yes. They protect. They protect us. But you don't agree... – You have to give me the credit, yes? You understand? Yeah, I understand – And we, Turkish Cypriots, are living here in this critical part of the world, exposed to

1:10:20 many risks. Exposed to many risks. All enjoying Cyprus to the full. I tell this to my people, look, it's not so easy to be independent, to enjoy life, to have security, to have peace of mind, why do we have all these virtues? Because Türkiye is here, with all the power that she has with its satellites, with this and the other, and we are living in security... But, but... – And this security... But you are not independent. I am independent. But if someone pays for your bills and you are afraid for them to cut you... – Wait, this is... This is reciprocal. Look, reciprocality. – Okay, what's reciprocal? I don't know this word. Reciprocality? Yes, I'm stupid. I don't know this word. Türkiye looks after me as far as these things are concerned. But I am

1:11:08 the owner of the land here in north Cyprus, Turkish Cypriots, and therefore we are very important for Turkey's own defense, military comfort, and other interests in the region, including the airspace, including the seas, and what we have on the land here, so it's a reciprocity – So, if you want to go against what Turkey's saying, you can go against? Obviously... why should I go against? Why should I... I mean, they are not doing anything to challenge me, they are just helping me. Why should I be in a discussion point? There is no element. There's no reason to do that. There is no reason to do that. It's just high politics. People here,

1:11:53 the opposition, maybe for other interests, God knows what, they always want to show us as if we are being told from Türkiye what to do, and we do only that. Whereas Türkiye, whoever is in power, whether it be Tayyip Erdogan, whether it be the presidents and prime ministers before... My friend, I'm not trying... you understand, it's a logical question now Logical question. – It's not like trying to do something, I'm just trying a logical question. – We have never had any reason, anybody with a little bit of sensible,

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