The Show About Stuff! The Stephen Davis Show Season 6 Episode 64... Video...

0:05 Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the show about stuff, the Stephen Davis Show. Welcome to a podcast show about stuff. It's the show about stuff, the Steven Davis Show. Here's your host, Steven Davis.

0:51 Hello. Hello. This is Stephen Davis, the host of the show about stuff, the Stephen Davis Show. Today I have two wonderful guests. Charles Stephvenson who wrote a book called Kraken about go go go music and Siata Raman who wrote a book also about go- go music. It's entitled >> Soul Searcher Life and Times of Chuck Brown. We welcome you to the broadcast today and we're going to have another special guest that will join us, Logan Westbrooks. So sit back and enjoy this wonderful

1:38 episode. It's a departure from what I usually do in terms of the format, but I think you will find it most enjoyable. How are y'all doing? >> Doing great. Thank you. Great. Great Thursday afternoon. It's so great to to see you all and talk with you all and hopefully we'll see each other later on because for our audience, we're here in North Carolina, the beautiful state of North Carolina and we are at the North Carolina Music Hall of Fame for the induction ceremonies this evening. >> Absolutely. >> It's a wonderful and one of the people that they're honoring is the man George Clinton. >> Okay. Now, here's where we're gonna

2:25 start at. I'm gonna take a guess and say, Charles, you're a little bit older. So, we're gonna start with you. Give your full name. And where were you were born at? >> It's Charles C. Stevenson Jr. I was born Harlem Hospital back the great Harlem Hospital. >> Harlem Hospital. I was and raised in Mount Vernon, money earning, and did my professional work in Washington DC for probably over 50 years. Your home of Mount Vernon is the home of who? >> Denzel and Gus Williams and Heavy D. There's a long list. >> Oh, yes. Yes. As a matter of fact, during those days, but y'all moving up

3:12 to Mount Vernon, that was Jefferson's. You're moving on up. Moving on up of Harlem. >> Yeah, man. Because you had Nita Simone lived there and Dr. Betty Shabbaz. There's a long list of folks who lived and born and worked in Mount Vernon. >> I have cousins that live in Mount Vernon to this day. >> Okay. >> They've been living there since the 60s themselves. >> Okay. All right. >> They still live in Mount Vernon. Did you start school in Mount Vernon or Harlem? >> I'm in Mount Vernon. >> Okay. >> We My mother and father moved out of Harlem when I was like probably around four years old. Moved up to Mount Vernon and yeah went to high school all the

3:57 school in Mount Vernon. Then join the army in 1964. I did three years and came out changed brother when I came out of the military. Yeah. soon remain. Where were you born at? >> I am a sixth generation DC resident. My family migrated from Montgomery County, Maryland. I guess that after slavery to Dean Wood, one of the oldest black communities in Washington DC, where my family still lives. They've been there since 1895. And that's the neighborhood where Marvin Gay lived briefly, Dr. Chancellor Williams, Doc, Miss Nat Nanny Helen Burroughs who set up a all women's school. So, it's a lot of prominent people that come out of Deanwood. So, I'm very proud to say that I'm a resident of Washington DC.

4:43 >> For both of you all, where was your ancestors from? I understand what you just said, but they did they come in through Maryland or did they come in through South Carolina? >> So, part of my family, my mom's side came from Co Pepper, Virginia. My dad's side came from Montgomery County, Maryland. So, wherever the slave ship dropped them off, they then migrated them to those areas and then they met in Washington DC. Both families. >> Okay. And you, Charles? >> That's interesting. My mother came from Rocky Mount, North Carolina. >> The Mount. >> The Mount and Felonius Monk. And my father is from Welen Conway, North

5:30 Carolina. And and they met in Harlem at the Seavoi. >> At the Seavoi. Oh, okay. >> I worked in Rocky Mount many times cuz I lived in Fedville because my father was military also. >> I was stationed in Fedville at Fort Bragg. >> My father was at Fort Bragg and I was there in 64. >> Okay. All right. I was there in ' 65. >> Okay. >> This gets deep, huh? It certainly does. How was it when you went to school in Mount Vernon in your first years as you entered elementary school? What what kind of climate was it? >> God, that's an interesting question

6:16 because one of my best friends in elementary school was a white boy by the name of John Ferillo, Italian, and he and I were close. And so going to elementary school in Mount Vernon at the time and that had to be like probably 50 something like that. But it was integrated. It was integrated. And and obviously at that point I don't remember any strife. Now that came later on, but in elementary school I don't remember that any strife like that. By the time we got to junior high and high school, your white friends disappeared. You started hanging out. you know your brothers but then in elementary school it was a little different. >> Okay. And Sundiata how was elementary

7:03 school for you? >> I was very fortunate. Of course I come from a predominately black city. So DC became the first chocolate predominately black city in 1957. So I went to I attended George Washington Carver Elementary which name had a prominent black man. And so we learned very early from black teachers who cared about us about black history. I even recall how our teachers were sent out permission slips for our to our parents to watch Roots. So I watched Roots in the eighth grade. I remember I'm sorry not sixth grade actually sixth grade we watched it and I recall having that discussion. So there was a level of expectation that came from George Washington Carver that allowed me to go to Roper Junior High and eventually Duke Ellington School of the Arts where I studied visual arts. So

7:50 I really am very fortunate to have teachers that cared at in my my early stages of education. >> Did you know Dave Chappelle? >> Yes, Dave Chappelle is four years younger than me. So when I was a senior, he was a freshman. >> Now let me tell you a story about Dave Chappelle. >> You said I'm sorry. I said, "Let me tell you a story about this." >> Oh, tell me about it. Tell me about it. >> Okay. There was a guy who back in the 1880s, 1890s became a church that my relatives helped found. And this was the person's first church. From there, he became the bishop of the AM church in that area. and he became

8:36 the president of Allen University. He when the Birth of the Nations came out, he and some other black folks because they were protesting Birth of Nation went to Washington. That was Dave Chappelle's great-grandfather. >> Oh, okay. >> Wow. >> So, that's awesome. >> A little bit of history. >> Wow. Great history. When you went into the army, Charles, >> you did you volunteer or were you drafted? >> No, I volunteered. And interesting story, my my best friend Mars Johnson, we both had finished high school, 17 years old, and I used to pick him up on the way to work because he wor he lived in the same direction when I was walking to work this one morning. And so this

9:22 one morning we start to walk and he said he's gonna join the army because he him and his mother used to always have their spat. So this is one of them weekends where they had another spat. So he said he's going to join the army. I said man you ain't gonna join the army. He said yes I am. I said I bet you $50 you don't join and if you join I'll join also. So as the story goes on the order I kept my word and he kept his he joined and I joined. So that's how I ended up going to the military at 17 years old. >> We when I was in high school, we lived in Hollywood Heights. >> Oh, okay. >> And that was a development right near Fort Bragg. All the people that was living on Fort Bragg when they

10:10 got assigned to Vietnam, they had to move off the post and they didn't want to go back. A lot of them was from Washington DC and Philadelphia and they said no I'm not going back there. So they bought houses and all the area that development was basically military people. >> Okay. All right. >> That was in and out of Vietnam. >> Okay. >> And having lived that close to it, that made me decide that no, I'm not going in the army. That was a good decision, bro. That was a good decision. But I want to say this, that that decision set me on my way because when coming from Mount Vern, as I told you, I grew up when I went to

10:55 school was integrated and was 1964 is when I graduated Sunday. So you think about that. I go into the military and the civil rights movement was just beginning to bubble, right? And but I'm coming from Mount Vernon during that period, Stephen. And we experienced some back and forth, but not to the level that was going on in the rest of the country. And I get into the military and most of the the sergeants, they southern white boys and I'm from New York. And during that time, it's like how New Yorkers talked and carried themselves, which in direct conflict to the military code of conduct, which was you will submit to us white boys. And it

11:41 was hard for me to do that. So in all seriousness, I had to mature. I had to learn how to get through this. But at the same time, I was being faced with discrimination and racial injustice at a level that I had not experienced growing up. And so when I got out of the military, Stephen, one of the first things I did during that when I got out was I signed up to campaign for Robert Kennedy. Now, since ' 67, one of the first things that I did, I said, I'm going to be active in some kind of way, and that was my activism was sign up to work on his campaign. And obviously, you know what happened with that. And so the first time I voted for president, I voted for I voted for Dick

12:27 Gregory. >> Elder Cle was on this 1968, Dick Gregory was running I think Freedom Party and Elder Cle was also on the ballot in New York and I said I'm voting for Dick Gregory and if things don't get better in four years, the next time I'm going for Eldidge. Little did I know though, that really was what stopped my stopped me on my way to activism because during that period is when I really got active in the community and really started my foray into working for social justice. >> And although we're going to talk about each of you all's books, it was important for me to get some background in terms of you all because that's what the audience need to know. >> Yeah. how you got to the point that you got and why you got to the point you got and why you were successful in terms of

13:14 your own life >> path. That's wonderful. Now, you said that you went to Duke Ellington High. How was that? How did you all feel that you all were special? >> Well, we knew we were special. You're talking about You're talking about the first time in history in a city where Katie Cafitz, Peggy, Cooper Cafford, and Michael Malone. Yeah. A giants in the city, influential, decide that they're going to start a summer youth program that focused on the arts. And that grew into a high school dedicated to young people who were primarily from W 7, W 8, underprivileged communities. And it gave us a platform to truly express ourselves. I never

13:59 thought I would have have evolved and went went on to New York City with a scholarship to the school of visual arts. I had friends who were at Giuliard. They were at Cooper Union. They were at schools that had it not been for Duke Ellington, we wouldn't have made it. Absolutely not. So, I just of course we knew we were special. But more importantly, we realized that we were dedicated. We were focused at an early age. You talking 15, 16, 17 years old. and we were already planning what our future would look like in the next 10 years. I was very fortunate to go on to the school of visual arts and in my third year in college they included an African-American studies course. I took the course and my professor was Dr. Roslin Jeff the wife of Dr. Leonard Jeff who was a professor at City College in

14:45 African studies. Within three years I went to Egypt with Dr. Ysef Benchin and that changed my life. I went to Egypt in 92. I was 25 years old. I had already begun to read a lot about our history, but when I returned, I left Atlantic Records and my wife at the time and I, we started several bookstores. So, I was in business for myself almost 10 years as a book seller. And I begin to lecture on history, do slide presentations at colleges, and we're going back 30 years ago. And this is what prepared me to do what I'm doing now with writing a book this year. >> You mentioned Dr. Jeff. I knew Dr. Jeff very well. We used to meet on Saturdays at the John Henry Clarkson House.

15:30 >> That's right. That's right. I've been there many times. >> Okay. When it first started because Adlay Sanford and a lot of others helped to found it and we were part of that that first wave in terms of having meetings and things with them. So yeah. >> Absolutely. >> And I knew Roselyn also. >> Oh yes. I'm going to ask a couple of more questions in terms of you, but at this point something popped into my mind. Both of you all have interesting background, interesting history. What all of a sudden made you all decide to write a go- go book? >> I don't even know where to start that, but let me go back. I think it's interesting important that I make this point. Okay, so I'm working in in in New York first City Bank. I went to school

16:16 to be an accountant. I'm starting to be accountant and at first I city banker during that period Stephen this is 68 69 they had just made this move to bring in more African-Americans to work in the operations department and stuff like that but I started to have some issues with some of the top management although they had put me in a junior executive program but I was still I was still rubbing them the wrong way but I was doing the work because what I was doing is standing up for a lot of the the employees at the bank. And matter of fact, for Dr. King's when he passed, one of the first things we did was to declare a holiday and encourage the black employees to stay off from work. Okay. On his birthday. When they didn't

17:03 do that, what we did, we came back. The ones that did stay off of work, we came back and we had a rally in the cafeteria at the first city bank in in downtown 55 Wall Street. But I'm telling you all of this because during that period I was very active with the brothers that worked at the East. I told you about Les Campbell, Jitu and that whole crew, the whole brothers that were doing work at the East. So it was a full circle moment. Sunday was working with the Jeffre later on. But it was the same network of brothers and sisters that in Brooklyn that were very active that I worked with before I left decide I had to get out of that line of business and change my focus and that's why I decided to move to Washington DC to do more

17:48 community organizing. >> That's why you in Viata. >> Yes. >> You said how could I write about go first? It was in the DNA of the city at 12 years old 13 years old. I played in a go-go band. My brother and I, we had a band called Main Connection. And from there, I went off to college. I was in school, but he stayed with it. My brother went on to play with Backyard Band for 10 years, and he's been with Junkyard now for about 12, although he's a supervisor engineer for the Smithsonian. So, this love for GoGo started a long time ago. And it started, of course, with Chuck Brown's Busting Loose. And when I left New York City, left DC in ' 85, I took a box of cassette tapes from Rare Essu.

18:34 And these cassettes, they get they kept me focused and it reminded me where I came from. And so even though I lived in New York and New Jersey for 32 years, I was always connected to the city through the music. >> And when I returned in 2017, that was on the eve of the Don't Mute DC movement. And eventually I became the a volunteer with the GoGo Museum. And from the GoGo Museum I became the senior tour guide, eventually director of tours and now the curator. And the book came from that inspiration teaching about Chuck Brown on a daily and consistent basis. And I felt there was a need to have a book that young people as well as people who are advocates of GoGo would could read. One of the interesting things that what you just said, Charles, and I'll let you

19:21 just say what you're going to say is that I started working around the same time that you started working at City Bank at household finance. So it looked like a pattern in terms of for that time because at that time >> I didn't know one day I went in I had an account with household finance >> and I went into the bank went into it to make a payment and the manager who was a white guy came over to me and said would you like to work here and I know that he had some investigation about me because I had a loan from They look up your butt. Especially if you were black then

20:06 I'm reading meters in the heat of North Carolina at that time and it says meter reader air conditioned with tie suit and tie on. >> It wasn't until later on I found out why they hired me because the consent decree. >> I got you. Every every one out of every four people had to be that they hired for their management training program had to be a black person. >> That's right. >> One every every four had to be a woman. But what they would do was hire them in those positions and then harass them so much that they quit and they could say, "Hey, >> you got that right. >> Charles, your turn."

20:52 >> So, so Stephen, what I didn't found because I didn't go into why I started writing the book. I was trying to close a chapter on our work in in in New York and and new people on the same level. But the work I was doing, the organizer I was doing, we started this organization called Black Liberty through Black Unity. We did a lot of community organizing in Mount Vernon and so forth. But anyway, because of what I was doing, the bank eventually I eventually resigned and actually they forced me to resign. I tried to take it back, but they wouldn't hit me. So, I resigned. Me too. That was militant as hell. >> Yeah. And I did exactly what they wanted me to do. I resigned and that's when I decided to to change my career from business to to to community

21:38 organization, political organization. And that's when I moved to Washington DC with the same brother that I joined the military with. He had moved to Washington DC and I followed him to Washington DC Mars Johnson and that's how I got to DC. So then, now this is the story. So I'm working in in in Southeast. My first job Sunday when I got to DC was to organize the bus boycott. I don't know if you remember that or Roy Shaw because people don't realize DC Metro was owned by Roy CH was privately owned bus company and Walter Fontroy had a boycott of the the bus system and they hired me to organize the Southeast. I had just got to DC.

22:23 >> Wow. >> I had just got to DC. So, but F, that was my first job. Fontroy hired me to do organizing in in in in Southeast. But during that period, one evening, my best friend and I, the same brother, we're in my apartment in the Southeast. And across the hall, we heard some some music. So I knocked on the door and it was Sugar Band and them rehearsing and we showed them some interest and they asked my friend if he would manage them. He said no but I'll help Charles. So that's how I got I couldn't tell them no man. I couldn't tell them brothers no the time Sugar Bear wrestle guys. So I just said yeah. So that's how I got involved. I got involved basically as a

23:11 community activist working with the young brothers trying to get them to do something positive and it just took on from there. And I tell this story because in in in moving to DC from New York in New York you see the brother walking down the street with the hats on backwards bouncing a basketball. In DC the same brothers would be walking down the street with the hats on backwards carrying a guitar case or trumpet case. And I was I noticed that happening in DC, man. That that music thing is percolating. And one day I was working in this program decided to work with EU. And the guy said, the people in the program said they were going to a go- go. I said, "Gogo? What's a go- go?" Because in New York, we used to call it a dance, right?

23:57 They say we're going to a go- go. And that's what it ended up being was they going to a dance at Burn Man. Burn Manor was the first go-go I went to. the Young Senators and Chuck Brown were playing and some of y'all I was like overwhelmed. I'll never forget that evening as long as I live when I saw the young senators I thought I saw a slide in the family stone. Them boys were they were wicked they were good >> and that's how I got involved Stephen. So it's actually starting working with EU and at the same time you understand I'm working in the community organizing organizing in the war in Vietnam organizing in racism not just organizing whatever in terms of all the social ills but EU and use the EU or the music at the time as a mechanism to help organize

24:42 it because I did Malcolm X Day Celebration for 25 years in Washington DC. that co-founded Malcolm X Day celebration and go-go music became the pride piper if you will. That was the way the reason why we would get tens of thousands of people come to Malcolm X day to celebrate Malcolm's birth because we would bring in these go- go groups but the same time we bring in Dr. Betty Shabbaz, Jesse Jackson, Sister Soulja at the same time. So coinating all that work I was doing, I get a call from this brother to help him. He was he said he's writing a book on on go right so up to that point Sunday I had been used as a resource for a lot of different people doing their dissertations or whatever

25:28 and I said to brother I said to my wife said you I'm tired of this he I should be a coowriter so he said tell him so I said look man I'd rather be a coowriter than a resource so he said okay so he went to Billboard he already had the contract he went to Billboard and add me on as a writer to the first book I did on go which was called the beat. And the reason why I wanted to do that is because it gave me an opportunity to help define how this genre, this culture evolved. So the beat really that's how we put it together. I did it with I call him my brother, but he's my white brother and we we did it together and he has written countless books and he was going to do this book by his son. I said that book that you was going to do was not going to be the book that ended come

26:14 ended up coming out because I had relationships with the different musicians, artists, whatever. So, the beat was the first one. I really wanted to put a stake in the ground in terms of putting out there how and why go music evolved. So, that that was how and why. >> Now, I'm going to get to you soon, Data. But I see Deborah is coming on. >> Hi. >> Hi, Deborah. How you doing? >> Hey guys, how are you? >> All right. Okay. >> Soon Data is talking right now. And what I want to know from you when you came to New York, I know you said you came to New York because of college, right? >> Yes. >> But you stayed. You didn't leave.

26:59 >> What did you do during that particular period of time that you were in New York? Because you were in New York for a long time. I was there for 32 years and I'll tell you that's where my maturation happened. That's where I learned I went from a quote unquote black American to a full-fledged African in America. I learn Oh yeah. When you learn at the feet of the the master teachers like Dr. John Henry Clark and Dr. Ben and Dr. Shy McIntyre and Dr. >> See, I'm naming people you already know. >> Shy was my buddy. These >> are people. I had these people in my life for over 10 to 15 years. So that that knowledge and information really helped me to grow as a husband, as a father, and as a

27:46 bookstore owner. And so that's where my foundation is. I came with the African culture. And then traveling, going to Egypt. I've been to Spain. I was writing a a screenplay on the moors of Spain. I just returned. I was there 2019. So I have always had a love for history and culture, and that's what Charles and I have in common. We have a a great love for information and disseminating information. And I think it was that preparation. When I think about this book, I think about 40 30 to 40 years of my experience in New York, living in New Jersey, and then returning to DC with something more than just money. I had wealth when it cames to knowledge. And I knew that there was something a void there where young people weren't learning the history of go music in the way that they should because it's not

28:32 taught in school. So, the museum really provided a platform for me to be able to teach what I know. >> Did you ever hear of an organization called the African-American Leadership Summit? >> I have. I've been a I was a part of it. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I'm also a member of the Association for the Study of African-American Study, Carter G. Woodson's organization. I just left the conference two weeks ago in Norfol where I did a book signing there. So yeah, I'm very much connected to a lot of I was also a member of ASCAT, the Association for the Study of Classical African Civilization, >> but I don't think you heard what I said. >> What's that? >> I founded the African-American Leadership Summit. >> I didn't know that. I didn't I had no idea.

29:17 >> I had no idea. See how we see how it comes around? >> It is. I thank you for your con creating this this idea. I'm telling you, I appreciate you. I want my audience to know and acknowledge and hear from Deborah McFatterder. One of the things continuing tradition that some of the stuff that I have been fortunate in my life to do, one of the things that I was fortunate in my life to find out from my mother was her father and my father were friends. >> Oh. when they were teenagers, when they were growing up. And her father was Clyde McFatterder. For you people in the audience, if you

30:04 don't know, Google him, you will find that they say that Ruth Brown built Atlantic Records, but Clyde McFatter had a lot to do with it also. >> Sure did. >> Yeah. >> Yes, he did. >> Yeah. How did you get interested in go- go music, Deborah? >> I It just happened overnight. I honestly I had no clue. Everybody was talking about GoGo. Chuck Brown, the year that we inducted him, I was clueless. I I honestly did not know who he was until

30:50 we voted and he his name came up. He was in. I had to hurry up and do my research. And in doing that, I said, "Oh my lord, I I knew the music. I knew the music. However, that is not uncommon for me and I hate to say it, but I will hear something and the first thing my brain goes to, it's not necessarily the words to a song or the artist of the song. It is the rhythm section of the song. So

31:36 in hearing the Charles Brown music, I was like, I have been to so many parties, so many gatherings, all of this music is being played. I had no idea the depth of it. And in speaking to people, they were like, Deb, you remember years ago we used to party in DC? That was go music. I was like, and now I know. Now I know. >> So that was my first induction really into knowing the roots of go-go music. And then I was told that 2026 was the 50th anniversary of go music. So, I

32:23 just felt that the North Carolina Music Hall of Fame should do something special as I feel that way about jazz, hip hop, country, western. We It needs to be celebrated. So there entered Charles Stephenson and then Sandata. >> So I'm just very happy to have met Charles and I can't wait to meet Sandata but just happy that it is all coming together where we can honor it, pay homage to the masters of it.

33:09 And lastly, but not least, that the three of you guys got together cuz I just knew there would be a connection there, especially with Charles and you, as Stephen. Yeah, I'm glad to see it. Very happy. >> All right. It's a reflection of life, past life, coming to life again and remembering some of the pioneers of that era that >> oh yeah >> done such wonderful things in it. Now let's uh it's fortuitous and great that I have you Charles and you Sundata because I can start off with you Charles

33:56 in talking about go go go music in terms of your book and then we can get to a specific particular person who was the epitome of go- go music and that's Chuck Brown. Okay. So I want you to highlight some of the things that you wrote Charles in your book and give the audience the name of your book. >> The name of the book is called >> Frankens Franken and it's entitled Power and Resilience in Washington DC's go-go culture. And I think the title is so appropriate because it explains the station that go has right now in the city of Washington DC. Not only is the official is it the official music of

34:43 Washington DC, but we knew that that was for a long time, but the city government finally came to grips with that, but how it has persevered and how it has overcome so many negative connotations over the years. So so many I think how can I say this? so much negative energy spent on really trying to stop the music for a lot of different reasons, but the energy behind it made it continue and and now the city I think benefits. I know for a fact that the city right now benefits as a result of this emergence of this culture. So yeah, I think my first of all I got to say this. I'm joined by two other writers, Alona Watski and Alona has written probably more articles on GoGo than anybody in

35:30 the whole world. And then you got Ko Hammond who started the first go website. So it's the three of us coming together. Me I actually was there and saw the music evolve from the time of the Chuck Browns, the Black Heats, the Young Senators, and how it moved on to and evolved into what we call now go. So that that's my that's that's my contribution. Alona she's a journalist. So she over the years has covered all the stories all related to go the good and the bad and KO has been the ground keeper. He's been the brother on the street that's he play he's a musician he went to Duke Ellington with Sunday. So he's been there. So the three of us together I think wrote a book that would

36:16 probably be impossible to write if without the three of us coming together. And I think what I'm most gratified about is just so seeing how the music and the culture has emerged from starting with Chuck Brown and the musicians stay together to get over the nonsense around violence and drug abuse and all the fights that we've had in the city about that and then noise and all that kind of stuff to the point now where they understand the importance of their music in reference to the African diaspora. And to me that's really that's that that does it all for me because I think what I think I know initially most of the artists were playing the music instinctively and that

37:01 we're not make necessarily making those kind of connections but I think now as a result of the longevity and information getting out a lot of with sun and other brothers and sisters who've been working with the musicians over the years now they understand how important this music is and why and how it is linked to West Africa or Brazil and Latin America, Cuba and that that music is a composite of our African roots. That's so Stephen to answer your question that that's the probably the section of this book that brings a lot most of the joy to me is how we end up in Africa. >> Okay. Now juxtaposing it with what Sada

37:48 wrote. Sada, you take it from there. >> Why did you write the book? What made you decide? I understand that he was the man in it, but there is something else that drove you to it to make sure that you take time out of your life to write a book about him. As I mentioned, I started off as a volunteer at the GoGo Museum and quickly I saw exhibits that were they were this is an ex this is a state-of-the-art museum. It's a what do you call it touch screens something that makes you engage in it and I saw images of Chuck Brown. I saw videos of him but what was missing was the literary form. We can talk have an oral history about Chuck Brown and we can talk about the great things he's done. But what about

38:33 his legacy from Gaston, North Carolina all the way up to 2012 of his passing? There has been a void in teaching who Chuck Brown is. What was his in influences? Who inspired him? Where what was his life like when he was 13 years old? We never heard that story. Yes, there were videos. There were documentaries about him, but there was no book. And so while I was doing the tours and I kept talking about the history, I said,"Ive got to write a book that young people can read that hopefully could give them some insight to this man's life." And then you have a deeper appreciation for him. All they know him as is the godfather go, but they don't know him as Charlie Brown when he was at Lorton. They don't know him as Charles Lewis Brown when he grew up in Gaston, North Carolina. So I take

39:19 it back there. But what as Charles mentioned, because I'm a historian, I had to give you the origin of the drum and how when Deborah said the drum is what she was attracted to, that's what has always attracted black people to culture is the poly rhythms. And poly rhythms really govern our lives with the drums and those that that beat that Chuck Brown heard when he was with the group called the Los Latinos called Waw Wa, which comes from Cuba. That's the beat he incorporated in the song Busting Loose. So I explain to you how Chuck Brown came into this knowledge and how then how he inspired rare essence EU trouble funk and junkyard to really become the founding fathers of the culture. So that's where the book came from. It was inspired because of the museum and the work that I was doing there and a void where there was really no literature except Charles Stevenson's

40:07 book the beat and then Natalie Hopkinson has a book but other than that there were very few books that really gave you the history and so the first person I reached out to was Charles Stevenson and I let him read eight manual eight chapters and he gave me his blessing and then introduced me to several people who are key people who could give me some history about Chuck Brown and I was fortunate enough to get the interview with Logan Westbrooks, who you have coming on soon, and he was gracious enough to do an interview. So, I was really well prepared to tell the story. After personal interviews, watching hundreds of hours of documentaries, and reading books, I was ready to tell a story. >> Wow. >> Oh, and by the way, this is what the book looks like. >> Okay, that's what I was gonna ask. You gotta

40:52 pull it back because >> I designed it. I designed the cover. I told you I went to Duke Ellington. So I'm fortunate to be able to be a graphic designer. I did my own type setting. And by the way, I did publish it, self-published. >> Hey, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Logan and I go back a while. One of the highlights of my life was to ride around Los Angeles in Logan's Rolls-Royce. >> Oh, yeah. >> All right. Okay. Now, I had a book signing for Logan because he had a book that come out about the industry. >> That's right. >> And he did a book signing in New York and I mentioned a story about riding in his Rolls-Royce

41:38 and his wife leaned over and said, "Our Rolls-Royce." Uh I'm sure you all have made the circuit in terms of different people that you have been interviewed by. What are some of the questions that have been asked to of you by these particular interviewers in terms of it? Do they see the value and importance of it? Let's start this time. I'm gonna start with you Sundata. >> Sure. I was interviewed by a young lady named Ji Olabani and I believe Charles was just interview with her recently. She asked me a question. She said, "With all the research you've done, what's something you want people to know about

42:24 Chuck Brown that they would otherwise probably not know?" What I focused on is that Chuck Brown couldn't read music, but Chuck Brown had a knack for talent. He could recruit musicians from different genres, from classical to jazz to funk to soul. I give you a good example. John JB Buchanan was a student at the University of North Carolina. He came down to Burn Manor and he actually saw the Young Senators and Chuck Brown at that time. They were the soul searchers and he left college. He said he decided he was going to leave college to join the soul searchers because the the tier of talent in there he said was at an all-time high. So Chuck Brown had the ability to pull a lot of talented musicians who could read music and write music. And so I think that's what people

43:09 should know that his ability to to recruit talent and use it in a way that really helped to promote go-go music to me was one of the best questions I've heard. >> That that's one of the best observations not just of Chuck Brown but of life because there's there is a difference between Ed Kennedy who was in Senate and other folks. Ed Kennedy made a statement one time that here is a man I don't know everything but I know who to get to be part of the team that would know that particular phase of what I need to know. Most people like to think that a leader is somebody that knows everything. They

43:57 don't know everything. There are a lot of people who are non-m musicians but they led big companies in terms of music. >> That's right. >> So that that is a lesson in life and that's one that younger our younger folks need to learn from the very beginning. We all need somebody with us. >> Deborah, you're back again. I'm sorry. I I got lost. >> I did. It's never stopped until probably around 11 o'clock tonight. >> So, I may come in and out. Don't mind me. >> Let's talk a little bit about how from your point of being in the

44:43 legislative arena Charles how do you get someone like Chuck Brown to be much more recognized within the government? You talked about the city doing more in terms of Chuck Brown. How's that process work? >> Again, it's you gotta educate your elected leaders in reference to his contribution, which is more than playing the guitar. Chuck Brown in terms of life experience. As Sunday mentioned, he served time in in Lordon, but at the same time, he was a father and he had he hustled and he had he talked about how he signed shoes for one of the top restaurants in Washington DC to make a living. So, how important that is. So,

45:30 in terms of what he did in his life, that was a model. And I think that's one reason why he was referred to as pops and dad from a lot of his fans because he was a great mentor. Not only again because he played the guitar and he sang, but because of how he lived life, how he learned from some of the ups and downs of life and how he translated them into something positive to put him on a perch to be Chuck Brown. So he would always say no matter how long, how big or small, we all got could do it together. So his point was no matter what your point is in life, you can always rise above it. So in terms of why that's important in terms of the city government and the legislators know

46:16 about the power of somebody like Chuck Brown because there's so many brothers and sisters in our community that need to hear his message. They need to understand his message of hope and he's not magic. It's real. And having someone like him as an example using him I think it's a win-win. And so these are the kind of people I think Stephen that we really need to talk about in terms of our educational attainment. The Jesse Jackson, Mother of Kings, they're very important, but it's the Chuck Browns and others in our community also that we need to talk about. So that that's it how I see that. And I also want to say this in terms before Sunday leaves, I got to make this point because he mentioned about Mike Malone and Peggy

47:03 Cooper Cayford's and how they worked hard to bring about the Duke Ellington School of the Arts, but that was part of a movement. And Stephen, you were part of that movement. You talked about your your leadership conference and he was part of that also. So he's a product of the work that we've done generations before him. And I am so proud that he's part of this right now. And it shows you that the work we that we've that we did back in the day, Stephen, was positive and is paying off because he's just one product of that. And there more and more brothers and sisters in this universe who have benefited from a lot of work that we did back in the day. So I before he leaves I just want to I'm just gratified that he's on this with us and again it's an example of the kind of

47:50 work and why it was important for with the work that you did the work that Peggy Cooper and Mike Malone did and the work that he's doing now is ob obviously laying the groundwork for brothers and sisters come behind him to continue to move forward in life. So Stephen this is one of the moments that that is hard to duplicate. You know what I mean? This is like one of them God moments, bro. >> And I to add to what you just said so eloquently is that when education starts, it starts with us. >> Thank you. >> But then it flows out to people who then become empowered to do something about it.

48:36 >> And that's where you come in, Deborah. that the fact that because of you, you were honoring this music at a major forum and people of all races are being able to enjoy and understand and appreciate what it's about. And >> yeah, >> of course, to have a book on a specific person, it's always wonderful because it gives you a road map. When things first start off, they're always slow and you never think anything is gonna happen out of it because that's what they thought about hip-hop, right? >> Exactly. Yes. That's what they thought about rock and roll. >> There you go. That's right. >> Back in the 50s, that was considered the

49:24 devil's music. >> She's right. >> But look at it today. >> Rock and roll. I've always said that R&B was it's great, it's wonderful, but back then in the 50s, R&B did not generate money. It started generating money when people put the R&B to the rock and roll. I saw a complete change with that. It became knowledgeable. It became acceptable. But you can ask the likes of Little

50:10 Richard, Claude McFatter, Little Anthony. It was very much frowned upon, but as that saying goes, you've come a long way. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. >> So, I caught the baton and I'm just moving forward with it. So fantastic. So fantastic. Satada, do you have some last words that you want to say before join us? >> I will say one, I look forward to meeting the funk master himself, George Clinton over tonight. I look forward to that. I've been listening to Parliament Funkadelic a lot. >> Oh yeah. >> Yes. >> I would also just people who would like to purchase the book, you can go to my website sunroublishing.com >> and purchase your book

50:55 sunroublishing.com. Okay. And the book is entitled Soul Searcher, Life and Legend of Chuck Brown. So, I just want to thank you all and I'll see you all later. But Stephen, definitely thank you so much for this opportunity and I look forward to seeing you as well tonight. >> Okay. I'm sorry you have to go before Logan before Logan is just that was Logan calling saying that he's getting on right now. Thank you, >> Stephen. Now to the audience, we talked a lot about Chuck Brown today and go go music and here is the man >> whose record label and I told him the story about us riding around your Rolls-Royce and I told him the story about Gary said our Rolls-Royce.

51:45 But here's the man that can tell us so much about Chuck Brown because it was his record label that put out Busting Loose. >> Wow. >> So, I'm going to let you talk a couple of minutes, Logan. On the business side and working with Truckucky, we were most successful. But on the other side, Chuck R. He was a gentleman. He was a nice guy. Being in this this music industry, you work with so many different personalities, different different artists, and they have some of the hang-ups and things such as that. But every now and then, an artist comes along that's a pleasure to work with. I can think of Cannonball Adelaide. I would put him in the same category as the Cannonball Adelaide.

52:32 Just a pleasure just to be with you're working for particular purpose to sell more a product. That's the aim. But in the meantime, you're spending a lot of time with these individuals and you're not always talking business. You're not always talking records. And Chuck was that kind of a guy just to be with him, just to talk about life. That's the kind of a guy that he was to me. >> How did you meet Chuck Brown? H how did it come to you to do that? I was in the process of just opening up my record label and the idea was where I've got to have some product, got to have some artists and there was a guy that was working with me at that particular time that was from DC and he ran across this tape with the from the producer there in DC and he

53:18 brought it to me and at the time I was teaching a class out at Cal State LA and I took that record I took that demo tape brother and I played for that class out there and they were ecstatic and the decision was made. We're going to go with it. So immediately I try I got in touch with Chuck Brown and the people that that that was handling him at that particular time and we started talking and we made a work out a deal immediately and that was it and that became the very first release on my record label. So basically that launched my label and it was most successful the first record the first product out of your new label and it's successful it goes gold and just continue to sell and all of a sudden it is being played all over the country. That's really the way

54:05 it happened. But that's the way that I met him through that record and in so doing to actually launch the label and to launch that particular single and album. I brought them out to the west coast and we did a big huge showcase at one of the main taste makers venue on the west coast and that's that's where it happened. >> That is that that's marvelous. Did he do any of the subsequent records with you for you? >> He did we did a second album a follow-up album which was not as successful as the first album but it held its own. I'm gonna interject here for a second. I have to go. But Logan, it was very good

54:51 to see you. >> Pleasure mine. >> I hate to leave, but I have to go. >> Charles and Stephen, I will see you in a little bit. I'll see you tonight. >> Okay. Take care, guys. >> Yeah. >> Okay. But I really feel honored being with such distinguished gentlemen though and ladies. This is a treat. >> Oh, I know Charles is distinguished and you distinguish. Where's the other one? >> Byebye, Deborah. >> Man, they look I just gota say it's really an honor meeting you, man. And I mean, I've known who you are. I mean for for for I mean over 50 years and and and

55:38 you're I mean again how you stepped out and supported Chuck and and made busting loose you know I mean that's that's the trend busting loose is the the product that got go on his way and and and you know now 50 years and and like you know is official music of Washington DC and get all the other groups that perform the music today Logan I mean what's going on in DC uh is not going on anywhere else in the country in reference to, you know, black musicians being able to play and perform, uh, you know, and just keep their chops, you know, hot, you know what I mean? So, it's it's just a pleasure meeting you, man. You hit that kind of Yeah, man. I mean, I it's just it's just it's full circle. I keep saying this, it's a full circle because it is, you

56:25 know. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> It kind of like started with you. You had the faith in him. You heard and like you said, how you took it to your class and they and how they responded. I mean that that was Chuck >> and he was like you said he was like just a great person aside from >> Yes. Yes he was. >> We talked about that before you came kind of individual Chuck was off off the stage. Yeah. So anyway thanks man. Thank you so much. >> My pleasure. My pleasure. >> Yeah. the Logan Charles his background I don't know if you know any of his background but it just seems like it married with what he's doing now because he was more on the community legislative side being in Congress not

57:13 not a member but being a legislative director we need all forms of different things to make a hole And sometimes we think that we can do things by ourselves and that's what we were partly talking about. But I know that people in the government are needed. People in the community are needed and people who take chances like you do because what people don't realize is that yeah, you were a record label owner which means that you were responsible for funding it. That's the BL and it was a loss. Everybody else got paid. >> You didn't get paid if the profits didn't come. I I just wanted to thank

58:00 you so much for that and for being on on this broadcast and talking about Go Music and Chuck Brown. I think that this is a monumental show because it's out of the ordinary of what I normally do, but sometimes you got to move on and this was one time to move on. I'm sorry that you wasn't able to get on when Son Dada was on cuz he was the one who did the Chuck Brown. But I since learned that you were already part of that book. >> Yes. >> All goes full circle and I thank you so much. >> Well, I certainly hope that we can do maybe do this again and I can get myself together on my end so I can come in

58:46 right at the very beginning. We will make it happen. I will make sure that we make it happen. Okay. >> Okay. Again, Steve, thanks for including me. I certainly appreciate you. >> I thank you so very much for being part of it. >> Okay. That's it for the show about stuff, the Stephen Davis show. Join us for the next episode. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for tuning in this week. Hope you enjoyed this show about stuff. See you next time.