0:22 Yeah. Heat.
1:14 Your solenus always says we need to practice something very relevant. and that he always says nent tradition very important. So this book really represents how without the help of nalinda tradition you cannot explore into the world of Buddhism. My name is Seinuche 2. Uh because my predecessor is known as Searuche and I'm known as his recation on this path of journey of Buddha. You
2:01 might find so many amazing teachers and support. But if this kind of support, if this kind of teaching is missed then I think uh I think maybe uh it will be very sad actually we are losing our goal. I'm not a such a a perfect teacher to give this kind of a share this kind of knowledge but I thought like at the end if I could say something like this that will will bring a huge uh offering to his what he has been so kind to me so
2:46 that if I could just repeat and remind this so that will be a great service for his holiness. sent for the shake of center beings. If you lose this and then how much you practice others, it will never take you to the liberation. It will never give you the real meaning of the dharma therea. So you need to come back. So this is the main uh reason why this text becomes very important as a great reminder.
3:40 Well, welcome everyone and uh thank you for joining us today on uh the wisdom dharma chat. Actually happy losatashi dele very auspicious day for us to be um all gathering together and it's uh very precious because we get to warmly welcome back uh sir circ welcome back rimache thank you for joining us today >> thank you thank you Daniel >> and is joining us from Dharmala I think it's like 5:30 a.m. And uh we are also joined by uh Fabitzio Pali and Atisha Matur. Actually Fabitzio is in um in Italy and it's 1:00 a.m. there. So Fabitzio um thank you for you know joining us under such
4:25 circumstances. Fitzio is of course uh his his holiness is an Italian uh interpreter and uh and is a great scholar and teacher in his own right um connected with institute lama kappa and also the cirkong institute which we're going to talk a lot about today um and then at matur who is also um you know studied at senira is very close with uh rimache and rim's teacher and um is uh the one of the lecturers and probably you know the lecturers at the cirkong institute and uh so today I thought we have a topic and today's topic is um Buddhist education in the modern world right and um and so we have two things going on of course uh remember was so
5:12 kind to uh record a wisdom academy course with us and we're launching that we're so excited we're launching that very soon I think that launches March 21 you saw the trailer there and I also wanted to play that trailer just to give people uh who don't know a sense of uh Riiche's activities and you know he is an expression of his holiness's teachings um so uh kind to um come to the west and teach us in English and it's just incredible so um but more than that uh rim is doing something truly remarkable with artisha and fabitzio and this is through the cir institute and so I really wanted to talk about you know this collaboration with the university of pisa and and I thought maybe we start
5:57 with you like what was your vision behind this uh cir institute and and why um do you think it's important to uh connect with western institutes of learning such as the university of pisa >> okay thank you thank you Daniel uh for giving us this opportunity um So uh now as he dala always says that a modern education is not always enough to to be at least to become a good person modern education is not enough. So somehow we need some kind of approach.
6:44 So and then uh uh to narrow it down uh now these days uh there are so many uh uh young Buddhist there are finding so many materials through so many people so many teachers so many uh platform like uh through online AI >> so it's it's a it's a big challenge for the you uh the people who is finding dharma uh if they don't get a good guidance uh through right direction that was the greatest worry. So if we remember his solenous way of teaching he never emphasize anything else than just we
7:31 need to go through right approach through nalinda tradition he always always drag us there even we sometimes go again he's always saying that nalenda tradition again but then he always drag us there and always push us actually very gently. So now uh as through his kindness uh what uh uh the SEU institute uh is stepping in is uh many um uh people who are finding dharma with the so many guidance out there. We sometimes worry that if they are writing
8:18 the right antidote. uh for that reason uh uh as his always says if the one person who does not have a right understanding on four noble truths very well and especially not just uh having a quite understanding on a liberation and you think that I'm a practicing a dharma it's it's not enough it's it's not you're not ready uh on the path actually on the path. So for that reason um the SEO institute's main mission actually is to uh to to ask you
9:04 a question saying are you finding the right path? uh if not then let us help you uh with the his own exhibition and then see whether um this approach uh is uh uh suitable for you or not. So give us this kind of a moment to uh uh reflect on that. So this is our main mission actually to sit with you and then uh just debate little bit with you and then um give you few understandings of the great um scholars like Tamaki and Chandaki and all these great masters and
9:52 then we let you go with this understanding and then you can connect to any other llamas or geishes Rushes and explore the world of dharma. So then our mission is finished. So before that we really wanted to give this kind of guidelines. This is why the seong institute becomes quite important for us to uh to introduce you to the world. I think it's so important that people can have confidence that the way they're spending their time is meaningful in that you study dharma. You know, you are studying authentic dharma and that it's leading you somewhere. And so sometimes you might think you're studying dharma,
10:38 but you don't really how do you check how do you know if I'm doing it, you know, if I'm on the right path. So this is incredibly important. And um I wanted to ask maybe Artisha who studied in the monasteries right and uh you know western going to Dharm Salah studying in the monastery and uh what was that like cuz I imagine it was completely different to uh you know different sort of way of learning actually and so if you could tell us a little bit about you know the unique ways of uh the monastic education let's say or Buddhist education Thank thanks Daniel. Yeah, it's true. But more than the funny part I think was
11:24 uh it's unique and it seems very it seemed very shrouded in mystery before I did it. But then when you go into it, it's so well structured and it's so clearcut and it's so organized that I was almost surprised. I mean, I grew up in a Buddhist family and my parents were Buddhists and so they would drag me to teachings my whole life. and then even engaging with them and their friends. I always noticed that or at least I personally felt that there was something missing in my ability to string all of these things together. And like you said, being able to feel sufficient in one's understanding or at least know that one is generally moving in the right direction and has all the
12:10 like the basic tools to be able to navigate this world. But then having access to monastic education, it was so obvious the structure that they had and it was so well planned and well laid out that I was almost surprised at how absent it is in our modern context to know exactly which subjects need to be done, what is a starting point, what is a preliminary, what comes afterwards. That that was the most eye-opening thing was that just beyond this wall of a monastic institution and ordinary normal world there's such a divide in what we're unable to understand and realize is actually such a wellestablished and such a clear-cut system that joining it of course I had
12:55 my own personal fun and that was great but u the takeaway was that the dharma has been structured and it has been essentialized and distilled in such a perfect manner and it's so shocking and surprising that we're unaware of it both in terms of the way the subjects are structured and the content and also the way that you approach it which is in this kind of analytical way which is so natural and spontaneous for someone who is brought up in that system. I found that the strangest most stark contrast between our world and that world. Yeah, that's incredible because you know maybe a lot of western Dharma students are unaware of the structure and how incred like that's a science in itself. The way the way you are taught in
13:42 subjects and sometimes it feels like in the in the west because depending on which teacher's coming through or what they're doing or when you turn up it's like walking to a university and just randomly going into a class and sitting down and taking notes, right? It's like what is this class? uh and then then you just decide maybe six months I'll come and do another class right you are structuring your dharma your dharma sort of education when there's a whole you know hundreds of years of way of doing this um that does seem maybe very uh foreign for us when we look at it from the outside and this shouting and debating and it's like what's going on there but letting us I think if the sirong institute is um letting us teaching us that as
14:28 uh what is the structure? How to start? How how do I move to the next subjects? How do all these subjects link together? Fabitzio, I want to ask you because you have spent years and years um traveling the world actually translating for great llamas and and teaching and and so you have seen uh around the world the way you know Buddhism has been taught and how and the things um the things that the western students have struggled with or there might be gaps in knowledge. What do you think? What do you see as special about uh the Cir Institute and this uh new series of teachings that are coming up? >> Well, Daniel, thank you very much for having me here with this incredible panel of people among them also one of
15:16 my teacher for for two lives now. I was connected with sir kimp past life as well and uh and also now I have the opportunity of serving in a very humble way. Well, what what what said it it resonates resonates with me very much. His holiness uh so innovative way of teaching the dharma to to the western world which is unlike any anybody else I must say. had been with uh so many incredible teachers, so many incredible llamas, but really no one was was really
16:05 is really like like his holiness. So perceiving clearly what is needed in the western world and how the wisdom that comes from Nanda tradition as said that is only stresses so much that sometime you wonder oh is still saying Nanda tradition but but once you once you see the importance of it then you really it it really strikes an important point. We are I mean this is really very much my my my way of seeing of being a part of this huge wave of transmissions
16:50 which started from Nanda tradition and went to Tibet with with with Shantaakita and Tunden and that was the pure Nanda tradition that it began with the the most the sharpest of the logicians at that time and it started in that way. And for some reason, Tibetans, I mean, go figure these people who live so far in the world are all mountain people. Like really like the epitom of mountain people. They figure out how to develop the the path of logic and penetrate reality to unbelievable level while
17:36 preserving the entire tradition of sutra and tantras and practice and what we call now um cognitive sciences and meditations. It's just incredible. And then with the with with Tibet and losing on China and coming to and coming to India, for some reason this was a catalyst to spill this incredible wave of wisdom to us. It came because of that. So now we are still you know like 40 50 years of Buddhism in in the west which
18:22 I've been part almost since the beginning and as you as you said there was something missing and what is missing is really the heart of of Nanda tradition. I've been I've been studying very much in in the western dharma sort of environment with FPNT. I've did two master programs, basic programs. I did translations and everything and yet it's just what is missing is exactly what what the circle institute is bringing about the the critical teaching the critical thinking how to approach critically with wisdom
19:09 each and every topics and develop this logic to such a level which for us westerner it. I think what I personally think is going to be so natural. It's going to be so natural immediately. You can see the the incredible potential of of such a thing. That's why I kind of dove into it when uh told me let's do this, you know, say yes, let's do it. I didn't even know where to start to tell you the truth, you know, but I said this is exactly what is holiness. The Dalai Lamas tells us about his view, his vision and if my I must say personally his honest told me if Buddhism in the west
19:56 is if if is develops on the basis of of the Tanglanda tradition then we have a chance for Buddhism to remain in the world for a long time. Otherwise if it's just rituals and practices I don't know about that. This is personally he told me that you know so that I felt it deeply you know because I want the benefit that I've received in throughout my life to go to everybody. So we are here for that. >> Thank you so much Roma. uh you studied at Sarah J monastery and then uh then you also went to Canada and uh so you had a little bit of the opposite experience from the monastic training
20:42 into the western uh education system. So I'm wondering uh if you could tell us a little bit about maybe your your the differences you see but also if you could start to like give us a little hint about this structure that that u we've been talking about. How is uh you know the Buddhist education uh structured in in this unique way? >> Okay. Uh first of all um I finished my studies from Gandhin Chang not from S. So I need sometimes I need I need to go back to the monastery. If I accept that then I will be in a trouble. Just kidding. Uh
21:30 well actually uh my purpose to going to Canada to improve my English is uh to actually communicate uh a dharma uh with the uh western people. So the purpose of me going there uh is to just improve my English because I never had a uh modern education um like a learning English. So well when I was studying there I see so many great things actually to be honest the the culture and the behaviors of the people and the respect and then uh also way of educ uh giving the education is a bit
22:17 different from the uh the from India and also from the Tibetan community. So some some things are I really respect that a lot. Uh but now the problem uh always start with uh because this modern education is a design for you to uh communicate with um uh to bring more um uh the the why you study there uh in Canada. for my purpose. I'm the only one to learn English is for dharma. So to communicate dharma to to the uh
23:03 other people but the most of the my classmates for their they have to use this for to make a living uh to uh their profession is different. So uh there are so many wonderful things but today we don't have a time to share here but the most important the structure that uh what Adisha just told was a interesting one because uh many many in this world still uh people think like we don't need this kind of structure way of this uh critical way of thinking this uh sometimes we call debate Uh but then uh
23:52 well because as Daniel you mentioned like in the university uh if somebody just step in without understanding what this the professor has taught past 2 days or 3 days you will get lost. It doesn't necessarily mean that topic is or this structure is boring. you are not getting the right uh way of understanding. That's the main problem. People never uh go and ask this kind of question to yourself. They will judge from oh that's this sounds boring or what is this why this is so interesting to other people. So as Adisha said
24:38 uh this is a very good question to Adisha also uh you can ask directly to Adisha but most important when we go through the grid masters nalinda masters text by like chandi clear words but then time to time uh he will pause and say uh still it does not clear the doubt still it does not clear the doubt doubts he will repeat that again and again. So what does that mean actually? So with this kind of a techniques to clear the doubts without the permanence way of approach so it is very difficult to reach to the understanding of the uh the understanding of the viewpoint
25:25 actually. So when we say the right view so if we talk about right view and there's also wrong view and mistaken and then there's a contradiction so with this kind of a language with without this kind of a language without this kind of understanding so how much you say I'm on a right path right view so there actually there is no other way to uh clear this out so u no matter But without this uh uh help of a u dharmaki's way of approach uh in a prama and then uh and also adding more
26:11 important master naguna his holiness hero with without this uh approach of their way of thinking and then somebody says the realization giving a realization or g introduction to realization to that it it becomes so kind of mild not really authentic. So that was the greatest uh worry. Um so yeah I just wanted to say something like that and then for the structure I will leave that to Adisha because he brought that up. Okay, I'll I'll ask about the structure. Remember, there's one thing I wanted to sort of highlight because as I'm hearing you speak and
26:58 also for Britzio and Aisha, it seems that um what you're think what you're developing is a way of learning that is a bit more interactive than we're used to in a way because it feels like the world's going one way where uh already in the dharma world it seems like you go to the class maybe you can ask some questions at the end uh but there's not much interaction and maybe if the if the class has got 20 30 40 maybe, you know, huge class, the teacher doesn't really know the students what they're doing or what they're thinking or what what they how much they really understood cuz there's not this interaction, right? Um, and then they're not debating they're not test not with even with each other checking what did you learn, what did you understand? And so and it feels like
27:43 the world's getting going to be worse on that with if I'm at just at home asking AI to teach me dharma then it's all this passive learning there's no checking of what I understood you know like I have a confession remember J actually I before I came here of course I know I know Jay and I respect RMJ a lot but then I was just coming oh I better just um get some um introduction bio from JJ so I said to AI can you give remember Jay's biography to me just some points he says remember Jay was born in 1984 and trained at Sarah J monastery right so so we can't trust anything imagine I'm asking what is the four noble truth right and I you know and and in my mind I didn't even question you know of course is from
28:30 Gandon yeah so this is an example and this interaction we had right where said oh actually I'm from we if you don't have this checking with the authority with someone who knows how do you really learn otherwise you're just ignorance leading ignorance my ignorance leading me with AI so I thought this was a good example of um the way the world's going and then this soong institutes like a a line in the sand no we are going to uh do things differently and so at wait I just wanted to say that it just occurred to me so why don't you tell us a little bit more about the structure >> you're describing things so Oh my god. Thanks. The It's really like that. It's like randomly walking in as an auditor
29:17 into a university and peacemealing your curriculum or like you want to learn music but you know that that's conservative. You can go and study or you can just learn off of YouTube. You want to become an architect, you just toy around with ideas. It's kind of like that's how I did it at least and that's how I unfortunately felt a lot of the previous generation did it. And the structure I mean okay so there's two things I think. One is the structure in terms of the subjects and the way they've been divided and that's really nothing new because if you look at the kangar and the tangur especially the tangur it has been divided in those structures which is there is teachings on the view which are essential then there are teachings on the stages of the path that you traverse when you have that view and then there is pmanana or tema which is the tools that you can use
30:05 to navigate and make sure that you're correct in your understanding. So on the one hand I mean then there's of course abidharma vinaya and then there's dantra but just as the main core subjects that are first taught in Tibetan we we they abbreviated into which is prammana abi sama and madyyamaka and this kind of really forms a whole backbone where at the end of having the study having completed these studies an individual knows where they stand where they want to get to what the stages are what the view has to what view it is required to get there and is empowered with the tools to be able to analyze for themselves as far as the content goes. And this is so standard and has been
30:51 going on for 2,000 years almost that it's a tried and tested method. It's not really uh new in that sense. And because it's it stood the test of time, it's surprising that as a modern world approaching dharma, some of us are so unaware or it still sounds so alien. And of course, another thing is we're very resistant to anything that is kind of orthodox or structured and so we want to do it our own way, but it doesn't necessarily always work. So like you said a line in the sand and the other part which you said if I quickly may which is uh the difference between studying dharma I feel and other topics is when you're studying these topics or when you're
31:37 studying dharma you're studying something that's very counterintuitive. It's not necessarily obvious because if we start from the purpose of Buddha is dealing with things that are diametrically opposite from the way that we perceive and we believe the world to be. So like you said, if you just hear something and you take it for granted, often times what you're taking for granted is a view that you already have and you're essentially reinforcing it. Whereas again, traditionally with the tool of this debate, what you're doing is you're checking your own thought and you're doing it in a courtyard with a lot of other people who'll be thinking about it differently, the same thing from a different point of view. And suddenly you might realize day in and day out that your way of thinking about it actually might not be accurate. So you're equipped with the tool to think
32:23 about it critically and you are placed in an environment that's furthering and fostering your own doubt so that you can actually come to a I mean as close and understanding as was the intention of the Buddha and then the masters who taught after that which I think is something extremely precious and that's that's what I meant by structure. Thank you. Could you elaborate a little bit more on how this interaction happens? So just like I'm going to go to a class, there's a you'll give a lecture. Uh how how how does the interaction happen? Maybe you can talk a little bit about debate here. >> So traditionally it's kind of like what you said. A teacher would go into class and before they would start the class they have a few there's like a
33:10 preliminary training which are those introduc introductory subjects and you're taught how to debate. So traditionally and I do believe this is not unique only to Buddhism but it's kind of really grounded in Indian tradition where before you study texts you're taught how to debate and so you're taught the language of debate. Again, debate doesn't necessarily entail this whole kind of physical component of being loud and you know it's a little uneasy for us westerners to adopt that style but it's essentially the it's like a tool a critical thinking tool and so you are taught this initially and then the classes are all that's the language that they use. So typically the professors or the teachers they would teach the text through this medium of debate and they would challenge the
33:57 students a little bit to see how they're understanding the text and then everyone goes off into debate sessions during the course of the day. In the monasteries they do longer ones. Here at Psycho Institute we're doing slightly shorter ones. uh but you do it in pairs where you break off into pairs and there is typically one person who answers one person who questions and again the way that they're doing it is in this language which they are taught which is very essentialized. So it's not like our understanding of debate where you have to present your entire understanding or your views and then another person presents their views and then the one that seems most convincing wins. It's a step-by-step process where you gradually elaborate and you gradually uh
34:44 investigate one topic in depth through this tool or the skill that you learn. And I think the closest I can think is like the dialectic method that the Greeks developed is very similar to this one. So maybe for a western mind that would be an easier way to look at it. So it's essentially an ongoing evolving process that arises out of a discussion. It's not something that's prepared in advance. And so in the monasteries we do two sessions. At Cirong Institute also we've been trying to do two sessions. So typically there would be a class with a teacher who will teach you the text. do this and bring up certain doubts. And then the students will break off into debate sessions twice a day where they debate in pairs and then they have these group debates which is like a smaller group of many people and you're learning how other people are thinking about it
35:29 and then you're testing whether your way of understanding it or their way of understanding is accurate. And over the span of whatever period you study, you start from one understanding and suddenly you refine it to a much more uh I guess I don't know like more convincing. It gives you a lot more conviction and it makes you feel a lot more grounded in what you're doing. I guess >> it it all sounds very um helpful to getting down the ego cuz I imagine you walk into a classroom and if you don't have to be tested, you can just sit back, relax. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, it's so easy for sometimes you think you understand something and then you have to explain it and you you don't it's not until you explain try and explain it that you realize, oh, wait a minute, I don't really understand that. And then
36:16 if someone else is doing that to you, it can be quite humbling. So, this is a almost like a therapeutic approach to studying dharma as well. Um, Fbritz, what we're going to do is show a video of some um debate. Uh before we do that I was going to ask Fitzio um Atisha mentioned this um special debate language right this type of special debate like there's this structure of debate language and I'm wondering um if you could talk to us about a little bit what that looks like and how you that sort of translate into English and Italian and other languages and then we'll show the video and then um I was hoping Rumache could tell us a little bit about what we just saw in the So Fitzia this special debate language.
37:02 >> Well Daniel I mean this is the most qualified here is definitely Atticia because specialty is he has developed this special language from Tibetan into into western language into English. He has developed it actually. I think he's a pioneer in this. So um it's best to it's really best to ask aisha but sufasu says that u ciron institute is bringing this language for the first time into the western world in two languages now English and Italian. There will be more languages for sure
37:48 Halloween but not just uh as a learn learning tool for the debate itself on the basis of the text that is honest the Dalai Lama extracted from uh from the from the tangure the sciences and philosophy of in the Indian in the Indian Buddhist classic um wi which is particularly powerful. So um I I will divert the profound explanation of the language tool to Aisha if if if you would but um the I I saw a question coming up from one of Aisha students because he's doing separately from from
38:35 Ciron Institute now for five six years we started sort of together in the sense that uh I kind of dragged into teaching debate to western people to Italians when I was working at Lamathon Capa Institute and then now it's a it's an ongoing thing and a student asked uh what what is the difference in Ciron Institute and the classes that already doing I think Atisha could could link this very well explaining also the language of the debate. For instance, in the in the in the first two books of science and philosophy,
39:20 the the the map of the of debate is there. the map of debate, some some hints of the bait. But with the Ciron Institute, we we we actually take the act the subjects of the of the of that of that book translated into into critical thinking and debate. This is quite uh quite incredible actually. So allowed me to throw the ball into Aisha's courtyard. >> Well, why don't we go to the video then can tell us a little bit about you know what we saw and then Atticia can take us into the the structure and the language.
40:07 Maybe that's a good way to go. So right now we'll go to uh we can watch the video. Sammy if you could line that up. Thank you. So take the essence faculty and follow it as the uncommon and govern governing condition of eye consciousness. >> So take eye consciousness it follows it as location. >> Take the it follows it pervades the sense faculty. >> So it follows the sense faculty is not the uncommon governing condition of I consciousness. Why? because the entire license faculty is not the governing condition and each individual part of faculty is not the governing condition. So it follows that the realization of
40:53 impermanence leads to the realization of suffering. >> Because without realizing impermanence you cannot realize. So remember, what did we just see there? That was a that's a very short one and that we couldn't tell much because it's like a we are not getting the whole chunk there to as we said if you uh walk into classroom and uh you see some
41:39 professor talking and then you are not getting the whole uh picture then uh this might be quite confusing but anyway in here in the video you can see because there speak speaking in the uh English and debating in the English so I couldn't pull up that much. Uh so here the most important part as you can see uh the two people are holding uh to their thesis and then their uh debate partners uh are asking and uh uh uh kind of a giving them a bit difficult time to answer. uh this as uh we as we discuss
42:27 here uh saying uh it is such a important method. So sometimes you think you know it and then some people will ask you question and then it will go to the some next level to give yourself a such a concentration. uh you will concentrate so well. Normally if you are surrounded by so many people asking and then you will think about oh what should I say oh what will people think but in this debate courtyard you are so hold to your thesis and your concentration level becomes so high and then uh from from that you will
43:13 get so many kinds of a positive doubts so that you can bring that to your teacher and then you can take that back to your your own cushion and then sit down and reflect on that. So normally how much you meditate you will not get that kind of a concentration but through this debate courtyard you get this uh kind of a uh thesis this kind of idea this kind of a reflection. So this uh is something as Dalai Lama always says u if somebody asks me uh which is better uh to do a retreat on majushi or to uh go for 3 years debate his
44:01 holiness I recommend the debate. So this is something and then uh maybe uh I will throw the ball back to Adisha because he's the main uh teacher who confuses the students there. So he has the more better answer. >> Yeah, teacher please. I I was fascinated by I just saw that first one and I was like wow these people are really learning something special. I always thought the Mikwang was the duck was a ducken. So I'm like oh what is the answer here? But please tell us what we just saw and and maybe the argument a little bit. >> The argument is really cool because I have to be honest, I never thought of it like that as well. When he debated this, I was stumped. I was like, "Oh, wait.
44:46 I've never thought of it like that ever." But uh the argument was, yeah, how does perception arise? And the way that he was arguing it was he was trying to uh see if there is a physical base for perception. Then is that entire thing leading to perception or are there individual parts of it that are leading to perception suggesting that if it's individual parts you would have to have different states of perception. If it was one thing then there's that constant dilemma about one thing being imputed and so how can one thing be functioning in a certain way. But I'd never ever so that's the beauty of it in a sense he had this doubt which he elaborated himself and uh this was relatively in the beginning of this year and he brought about a doubt that I had never
45:31 ever heard of and if you notice on the sides sitting on one side and on the other side Ruch's teacher and then Ruch's teacher's teacher and I was translating the debate for them and even again he looked at and he said oh that's an interesting debate and then he started giving answers on the side of how he would have answered So it's it's essentially you're elaborating your own doubts and I don't think it's fair to say that I'm a pioneer cuz when I when Fabritza kind of pulled me in this direction I was just going off of it's been developed like I think people like Jeffrey Hopkins and Daniel Perdu and especially Perdu in his text the language had already been translated and his holiness Dalai Lama has been pushing for Tibetan schools to incorporate it. So TCV has been doing it
46:19 before I started it. Some of our teachers at IBD were doing it in Vietnamese online. So it's been happening for a very long time. The language was already existing. It was just a question of taking it and making people debate in it or use it I guess not even debate in it use the language to speak instead of it becoming another subject that they would study. So that's what we're doing. I think it's I I the thing that I think I'm realizing is from our point of view of people who've done it, it just seems natural. From people who are looking from outside, it still seems very mystical or kind of I don't know. It still seems difficult or hard to get to. Actually, it's very simple. It's another way of speaking. It's just a way of structuring an argument in a very
47:06 efficient little sentence and then finding the components of your identifying the components of your argument and testing them. And I think as if it becomes bigger and hopefully it does then we'll refine this language and make it more natural cuz right now it's still in its initial stages. So sometimes it still sounds a little artificial, but yeah. >> Could could you maybe it might be helpful to use an example and put that example in in uh in in um in the language so we could use the famous fire and smoke. Could you >> right >> you talk about that and give us an example? >> Do you mind if we switch the example to another one because one that's a little more pertinent. So for instance uh that second clip that you saw where there was
47:51 three people who were asking they were asking whether uh the realization of impermanence has to lead to a realization of suffering and that's going off of a statement that achara dhmaki gives in the prammanavata. So there for instance the reason that achayaki is giving to show that our aggregates are the nature of suffering or duka he says our aggregates are duka because they are the base where we experience suffering. So that's how a syllogism would work. So when you're like Rebu mentioned if you go back down and you're sitting on your cushion you would sit on your cushion and you would look at yourself and you want to understand whether what we are are aggregates if
48:37 you will our body and mind are the nature of duka or not and the reason that is being given is they are the nature of duka because whatever problems arise we experience them on our aggregates and so when you're then analyzing this thing the First maybe objection that we have is no we don't really experience suffering on our aggregates. That's when something intervenes and so you have issues with accepting that our aggregates are where you experience suffering. That could be one initial resistance and then the next resistance is just because it's something that makes you experience suffering it doesn't mean that its nature has to be one of suffering. And so when you structure an argument in this way then I guess you get a little
49:24 more clarity on what Acharhaki is trying to explain about what the Buddha meant when he was talking about all contaminated things are the nature of suffering. So that's how you would then develop that argument. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Totally. And there's so many words you know that it sounds complex but in some ways it's not. There's just three moves right? >> Literally two moves. Yeah. Even less is two moves. There's two moves like the first move is well we can break up the first into two in a way you say >> consider there's a subject there's a thing you know so consider this thing here we're talking about aggregates and you want to say something that we always want to say things about things so you say there's these aggregates and they're in the nature of suffering and then ba basically that's the first and then the second one is prove it
50:10 >> here's what's your reason >> well because they're the basis of suffering >> and and and that's just three moves so then when you think about it like that and then you say, "Well, basis isn't nature. Let's go." You know, >> exactly. And then it'll develop. You'll say, "Either they're not the basis." Or you'll say, "Just because they're basis, it doesn't mean it has to be their nature." And then naturally your argument will develop or your thought process will develop and then someone will think differently. You'll have to try and test it. Like you said, you have to try and explain it to them and through explaining it, you gain certainty. It's very effective. Essentially, it's really, really effective. Well, then there's sort of like only two answers in a way as well. It's either the reason is not it's not is not correct. So that's wrong. You're wrong. The it's not a base or you're
50:56 right, but it doesn't prove what you're trying to prove. >> Exactly. >> And it's intuitive, isn't it? It's so intuitive. This way of thinking is so intuitive. We already have it. It's just we've not been taught it. It's like someone who's really good at music, but they've never really learned the underlying rules of music. Suddenly, you learn it and you can do so much with it. It's kind of like that almost. Fbritzia, I'm wondering how well this uh logical arguments work work with your wife. Can you use this in home? >> You tried that too and see you never succeed. You know that that is an impossible argument. Totally important. But this is another thing that uh it comes to my mind being being a westerner and also being in so many classes dharma
51:42 classes and when you talk to people about analyzing correct with correct thinking many times it comes out the question how do I know that I'm thinking correctly? How do I know that by thinking in this way really I'm going into the right direction? This is something that I don't find very much in the Tibetan community but the western I don't know in United States but I'm telling you here there's so much you know like even explaining very basic things of the path of correct thinking how do I know that my thinking is correct? How do I know that that is the correct understanding of reality?
52:31 So it's like there is a there missing we are missing the tools the basic tools to educate our mind in in in conizing correctly what is it within and without. So the that the de the debate does that the critical thinking makes makes you in a position that you will you are on the top of it. You totally know when when your mind is correct when your mind is wrong what is going on. I think you you get to that point. So even from the point of view of a very basic u
53:18 psychology of the life of the individual the life that you have inside yourself you know what do I do now how do I know that this is I mean not talking about dharma just in general this is a right uh right way of doing it. How do I know that it is good for me to abandon this and to adopt that one? It makes an incredible difference even even in the normal in the normal life which your daily life work dealing with your family as you say with your wife with your kids you know and actually was very kind to point me out a book
54:06 written by a western pe western guy who did some debate and he he wrote the book applying into the normal thing, you know, like the reasoning they that you get upset with your kid because he's done this and that and you have a reason in your mind, you know, how to check whether that reason is it is established or not, that reason pervades or not. So in in other terms whether you're right or wrong in doing that in relating with that situation in that way. So I think uh this is quite is incredibly interesting. Incredibly interesting. >> Awesome. Lovely Roma. What's possible? You know we see these people debate
54:54 um what can be reason what's reasonable for us do you think um to be able to learn? You talked about going to the circle institute and then you know heading out into the world right and being able to evaluate things for yourself. Can you give us a little bit of hope that that is possible that we can go and we can learn to think correctly in this way? Uh I think so because um because uh as I said uh on the beginning that uh many many of uh so-cal the Buddhist practitioners sometimes they never touch the ground of
55:40 the liberation. they never have idea of liberation and then they uh start doing so many so many uh so-called dharma and then uh that was such a uh greatest worry for the people like his dalama and the compassion ones >> uh so once you try to reach to the uh real dharma which is the uh very related to to liberation path and then uh we will always ask ourself what is a liberation? What is a liberation? So then in order to understand that uh you need to uh
56:25 directly listen to the four noble truths otherwise there's no options without each and every day uh having a little bit of uh investigation towards your mind. uh and then uh studying on four noble truths without that how much you practice how much you study uh it's so dry. So uh in order to do that because the liberation it is directly related to the viewpoint. So the viewpoint uh without the help of a critical thinking which when when we say three objects one is uh uh the um manifest and the second is uh slightly
57:13 hidden and then uh like very hidden. So the viewpoint is uh slightly hidden. So without the uh approach Buddha says this approach to that has to do with the investigation with the analytical meditation you have to analyze that. So with the without this um uh the the critical thinking with this kind of without that kind of structure we will never get to that point. So for this reason uh monastery the big monasteries are doing it like Sarah Tibongan and other like Saitma uh the great schools they are doing it his encourage these way of approach but of
58:00 course we know uh uh the lay society lay people we are so busy in our own world uh so even though we like the idea of a liberation and wanted to practice dharma. Uh but we don't have this kind of uh we cannot contribute this huge amount of time towards uh going to the monastery and study for years and continuously years and years for like 18 20 years. For that reason the second institute bringing this kind of platform uh within like you know uh four years just uh for like a studying uh uh like a
58:46 two two months uh studying and debating and then going through the the forwards and then a little bit of prama and a little bit of the m the middle way uh entering into the middle Okay. And then a little bit of understanding of the uh aisamay alankara which normally people we really don't know that aisamay alankara is so so required the people who is looking for um fully enlightenment. So, so like a great Adisha, why many people does not have a a great understanding why Lama uh Adisha has to
59:34 go to uh Indonesia putting all this effort almost like 13 months on the boat uh that kind of boat you know can you imagine why my goodness So uh these all this we need to have some understanding with the most three important thea and then uh uh middle way the entry into the middle way and then the uh abisara these these are the one of the three main subjects to get the liberation and
1:00:20 then to get the fully enlightenment. These three are the one of the m most important. So if you don't bring any these kind of practices in your practice then that's what I called before the practice is so dry so dry. So for that reason seu institute is helping to give you some kind of a uh kind of imprint or to maybe to water the imprint of yours. So that's why uh this kind of program which we we designed through the uh help and the guidance of uh my teacher uh who from
1:01:05 the young age who was really uh had a compassion towards to the world how to reach out and how to bring his solution into this kind of a course. So we have this kind of a uh materials and then curriculum and we have a wonderful teacher like Adisha and Parisio. So uh that's why um yeah that's that's why it sounds like a promotion now. Yeah. It's a promotion. >> No, thank you very much. It's so so helpful to hear that. That's so clear and and I think people getting a good sense of uh what's so special about this uh endeavor. And so now it's time to move into audience questions. So everyone please uh if you have questions
1:01:51 please um put them in the Q&A. I believe there was already a question that um Fabitzia pointed out to uh Atisha. And so I'll just ask um that question now. At Tisha, how is this course going to be different for the students who are already studying with Atisha? I lost the question uh from the Italian school Nander and Cir Institute. how how these these will be >> I think the this one is the one that it's still the same uh format as the one that we've been doing in India with Rimache and Ribeuch's teacher with Ken and also my teacher but uh thanks to Fabitzio the one that is going to happen in Italy is uh happening
1:02:36 with the University of Pisa and so maybe Fabritio knows a little bit more about those details. The nice thing is that uh being in collaboration with the university, I think the students it's a little bit shorter than the one that's done in India cuz in India we do it for 2 and 1/2 months. This is for 6 weeks and so it's going to be a little more compact but it's more essentially the same format and uh being a university program I think there's also university credits that are along with it. So I think that's one of the and then it's done in Italy unlike the one that we do in India. That's the main difference that I think. >> Great. Fitzio, did you have something to add there? >> No. Well, Atisha covered the point. Um
1:03:24 the the good things of the good thing of taking this program to the west as circ and his teacher uh wanted to do since the beginning and I believe is also the view of his own Dalai Lama is just to get into the mainstream education and to get and to get into the mainstream educ ation, you need to go into academic level and uh as I spoke to you also a few weeks ago, it has been a difficult thing to get these topics at at an academic level because also the format of of of the program is so
1:04:12 different. is so different from the normal front classes where the teacher tells you things you know and then you write down things you go you study and then you learn thing here you need to leave it you need to be there it's like a retreat and then you do mainly you do you practice and develop the critical thinking debate on the different on the different subjects so for this is something that uh the university of Pisa was able to see as as something really incredible, so innovative, you know, uh making on the table a program which has never been done before in this way in the west could be so
1:04:58 appealing and so interesting to people really to get a full immersion in uh into this program. So this is what uh we will we are going to try to do. I hope we have success. I mean is it's just like we we start to put into motion the wheel for the for the first time in a sense at least here in Italy. I know before uh our incredible uh people who were there before like Jeffrey Jeffrey Oins and also Bob Turman all started the university level the dharma at the university level
1:05:45 but I don't think it went down to this level of immersion full immersion you know it was just a class and then you go home and you do your thing. You don't just take off six weeks, two months and you just and you just do that. This is one thing and the second thing I think uh the question also for to attach does online on uh learning debate and many people also have asked me because this this program was developed at the beginning here in Italy. How is this circumnone institute going to be different from the program that uh Atisha is teaching online with debate?
1:06:32 And then there there is a retreat a near retreat. So maybe uh this could be good to to know for people who want to pass to go from that program also to take this program because there is a there's a big number of people who already following the debate. So I think the from from my point of view the difference is that this is an immersion a full immersion is not uh something done online is in presence and um the the text the particular text that mentioned as most important the pmana the the and madamaka and parching the abisaya the essence of
1:07:21 them is going to be put under the uh evaluation of your critical thinking. So I think this is quite extraordinary. >> Yeah, it's very extraordinary especially the um you can get credits with an academic institution and a and a a very >> Oh yes yes yes I I I didn't elaborate on on that because already mentioned but the university so uh the So this is almost like a master in a sense very similar to a master and uh and is geared to post-graduated and teachers already teachers that are going
1:08:09 to get uh university credits um international university credits and um I know for sure because I'm the professors from from their side the professor who professors who are heading the university or pizza they told me that they would like this to become an actual university program like for a span running for a span of three years and this would be really so incredible so we are heading if if we are able to start this we are heading to that direction for sure >> amazing amazing so um more questions are coming in I'm going to uh and some of them aren't directed to a person in particular. So I'll ask the question and then remember if you'd like to um uh
1:08:56 speak to it and then direct it uh to the right person. First question is goes something like this. It's um you know from someone who's had a lot of experience um learning from teachers and found that sometimes even when there's interaction there's sort of like a some sort of something's getting in the way of a clear answer. So there's sort of like this miscommunication. So, you know, the teacher and student can be having a lot of back and forth, but the answer just seems not to be there just not the the bull's eye is not being hit, if I can say something like that. And so, um, they've had this experience, even when they've had the chance to talk to teachers and even when they've tried their best to make their question as clear as possible. And so how how is how
1:09:43 is this approach uh you know helping there be this clarity of question and answer in in in this teaching style? M uh the Adisha can answer much better but for me when you said bull bull's eye so when you start uh shooting the arrow on the bull's eye uh like uh you cannot at the first attempt you cannot do it uh so you need to give a few tries and then most important is you really need to enjoy Okay, you need to enjoy while doing it. Even you make like a many mistakes but still you really wanted to
1:10:30 wish like I can do it. I really want to do it. So once you give up this and then you start practicing then you are not going back to that class again. So, so you need to have a such a strong goal why you are doing it. And then this you need to feel always by pushed by a gentle push by a teacher or classmates or your support saying that we can do it. This is something that we need to do it and that's something at gentle push what his soul is always giving us. So this critical thinking even my teacher uh and myself Adisha we all went through that it's not the the
1:11:16 it's like a a unique case it's a common case we always go through that and then we come back and we start thinking about this it does not become clear at the one giving a one kind of a thought and second time third time sometimes it will you will get this point after a few years when you meet like wow that's the reason why uh two years ago my classmates say something like that and then I say something like that my teacher wasn't very happy to answer now I'm getting some point from there this is uh the gift from patience and the right patience with the right effort so yeah so Adisha can you uh bring some
1:12:04 kind something add on that >> I think what said is how it is. I this question I resonate with it a lot because I used to feel very muddled in my way of asking questions and then a lot of times my inability to really kind of nail hit the nail on the head with my question in the way it was being communicated. That's something that I've suffered a lot and sometimes I still do and when I do I just revert to debate structure because it's it it adds it clarifies your thought and it clarifies your ability to communicate your thought and if the person who you're communicating it to is also versed in this way of speaking then that communication and that clarification of
1:12:51 doubt becomes a lot more effective. So I've suffered this question a lot and uh I find being able to articulate your doubt or your thinking in this way is very very it's it's like a it accelerates your ability to get clarity. Uh yeah just that I would just add that. Yeah. >> Thank you. Next question is uh where is the Cir Institute? I'm a college teacher of Buddhism in the US and I want to know if students can study there for a short time. I'm a long-term practitioner who received two initiations in the US from the former ciriche in 1982. And I just want to add if people are asking questions in the chat, if they could put it in the Q&A, that'll just make it a bit easier. I'll try and find it. But
1:13:36 anyway, so that was that was the question. Rimbo J. Okay. Se initute is based in India in Dam Salah. Uh so and then uh you can uh also as you know that we are going to do this program little bit shorter program uh normally what we do in India in Italy uh in June. uh so uh you can uh go on uh our website segment institute website and you will find us there and then as it's a I'm so happy that longtime dharma practitioner uh never hesitates uh to find us and then wanted
1:14:25 to connect to that that's a great teaching that's a great uh message to the all of us so thank you for and then uh uh as now um uh the person who's asking this question is somehow uh we have the connection uh so also he said he's a professor that's great that's great so um yeah so most important uh the s um our program is design uh uh actually for the people who are practicing dharma.
1:15:11 Uh so uh the many many of us practice dharma so much but somehow um there are so many cases uh that they drop out uh practicing dharma saying I have uh given my time energy and everything to my teacher and I through my teacher's behavior now I I got uh I'm going to say goodbye to Dharma. That's very sad. That's very sad. It's not that you It shows truly that as the person who saying that uh respect to that person, I wanted to say this very clearly because
1:15:56 Buddha himself said uh rely on my teaching not not me. That is the something that uh as we normally uh learn about four four reliances isn't it? Four reliances. So not relying uh on a person but on a dharma. Uh so uh for this case um uh the our main goal is and not going with the kind of directly to the guru devotion and so on but we really wanted to give you the clear understanding. Um whenever you uh practice dharma are you uh uh
1:16:42 aren't you forgetting something? the main like my teacher would always do this kind of a um syllogism uh practice you know which is very very good teaching to to all of all of us and to special for me and Adisha and Priio and he says that like sometimes he does does the all these tantric practices and the commitments and then he will stop in the middle of the practice and says Is this dharma? What I'm doing right now is this dharma? And then he will do syllism. It is not dharma because there's nothing to do with bringing down bringing down or reducing the
1:17:28 self-grasping and the ignorance. So this is not da and then he redo it with a great joy. So this this is something that uh we wanted to uh bring this kind of platform which we felt such uh great inspiration. So um yeah for this professor um uh I cannot say much on here. This is just like a teaser and a trailer. So in order to just kidding so this is something uh I wanted to share. Yeah. Thank you J and we'll put links to Cirong Institute and also to the um advanced training course at the university level in the chat. So please check that out. Um the next
1:18:15 question is does the course on March 27th the debate between wisdom and ignorance uh is it alive live please how is it? So it's actually um it's actually recorded videos. We recorded Rimbeachce um a few months ago and um and so that will be out so you can watch that at your own pace and then I think we are doing a special discount for people tonight. So check out the chat there'll be just for tonight a special special discount for people who want to join the course but you can it starts March 27th you will um you'll be able to do that at your own pace. So that's a that's quite a different thing. And then remember people are asking if um a person with limited education can study at this level that we're talking about
1:19:02 >> limited education. What does that mean? >> Maybe they uh didn't finish college or something like that. Um >> oh of course I'm a little limited person. I never went to college or finish anything much but I can still I study I really enjoy it. So why not you right? So of course because the our you know program is designed uh not only for the people who have a uh educated the uh the the highest highest everything but person who does not have any understanding of a dharma. we we go with that. So because we go with uh we will start from the beginning that we
1:19:49 will like my teacher and Adisha we always ask the students like what is dharma? What do you think? Give give me some kind of idea. We are not here to debate that you are wrong and we are right. We we wanted to discuss with that what is dharma? What is the armor? And then sometimes we go so many answers that at the end of the day you will get so tired of we will say no that's no dharma that's no dharma that's no dharma and then you get tired what is dharma and then we come back yes this is dharma so this is uh the our program is not only designed for the people who has already have a certain level of education even person does not have any education
1:20:35 they can join Thank you so much Rebet. That's a great advice. Maybe um there's >> Was it me who just went off? >> No, you're here. >> Oh, okay. Okay. So, s was was frozen. Okay. >> Um so, >> so for Daniel for the enrolling of uh the second institute in Italy, the enrolling will start in few days. And uh maybe I I'll um maybe they can go through you in a sense you know I can I can give you the I will give you the the way of enrolling to the second institute and also as Rimpos said
1:21:22 that uh is is not that is open only for postgraduated or teachers or at the university level. We also have a a private channel for for those who don't have that higher education to be able to enroll it in a different way uh through Majuji Lotawa Association. Yes. >> Okay. And so if people want to find out more where should they go about the uh university course? >> Well university is not ready yet. They told me that in three four days they will be ready. So they they're going to come up with with a with a landing page where people can connect and uh and do the enrolling. So Majar will do that at
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