0:00 I feel like the one thing you need to understand and like this is something even I have to remind myself all the time is that the internet forgets. You do something crazy and then you just keep [ __ ] doubling down. Keep putting yourself into the cultural zeitgeist. Cuz once you're out like you're you're remembered as the last thing that you did. There's always a chance to come back because the internet always [ __ ] forgets. I guarantee you the astronomer CEO could come back and like like start as a [ __ ] personal trainer tomorrow if you wanted to. Like people will just forget like damn that was crazy that he cheated on his wife 5 years ago. The internet will always forget and the only thing that will kill you is if you stop posting. >> Today I'm joined by Roy Lee. Roy is a 21-year-old founder of Culy, which does over $7 million in ARR and has raised over $15 million within just a few months of founding. Clue and Roy are two
0:45 of the most viral things in the tech world right now. So, this is going to be a very interesting conversation. Enjoy. I think you guys are starting to like um really expand beyond the tech niche. Do you know Sam Zia? >> Of course. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. My co-founder of UMAX. Sam the other day was like, "Dude, do you know this guy Roy?" >> I'm like, "Let's [ __ ] go. Let's see. Let's >> cracking outside of uh outside of the tech world." Well, I think first what you see is first the people who like work in social media and uh like influencers, whatever the people that are chronically online, they start to pick up on it and then slowly everybody else does as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I I think our our big bet is in the fall semester, like once right now we're like the coolest company in Gen Z. Um or at least
1:31 at least the most well-known, most infamous. And I I think once once September rolls around and we can like just get everybody start talking about it, I'm I'm I'm really curious to see what happens like like the revenue and the product direction then. >> Hell yeah. Um that actually you just touched on a question that I had so I want to ask it formally. >> Um are you guys pivoting away from cheating? I've kind of seen some stuff on both ends. Where's your head at with that? the the whole idea um like like Cluey as a tool is supposed to give you like information when you need it in pretty much any any situation where you're on your computer and uh like this does mean like you if you're on a test like it will give you the answers. If you're on a quiz it will give you the answers. Um I think the branding of we're actually like playing around like I think a lot of people think like there's some [ __ ] master plan but like like we're really just like seeing what the culture tells us and we're like
2:16 going with the flow of culture. I think um come fall we will try to double double down once again on cheating. Like I feel like it's like when when you when you have this tool that works to cheat on like a Canvas because it's like the biggest [ __ ] Trojan horse ever for college students just like like push it out there and say like [ __ ] [ __ ] it cheat on everything, cheat on your test, cheat on your quiz like everyone's going to download and try. And the hope here is that they'll download it, try it on on like a quiz, and then they'll also try it on like their email or try it during a meeting and try it during a lecture and then realize like, oh [ __ ] this is way bigger than just a cheating tool. So if if if we continue, if we decide to double down, which we probably will, it will be for a Trojan horse of a marketing stunt. I've had this thesis for a while. Yeah. Which is like >> um you know we see all of these really popular individual AI rappers >> and I'm like man chat GPT can actually just do most of this if you understand
3:02 how to properly prompt. >> And so there's this massive opportunity for a sort of product where maybe you just make the buttons like a little bit easier to press but you embed all these sort of one function tools into a singular application. But then in marketing you can just be like hey this gives you your you know within the astrology niche you can say this is going to give you your AI horoscope report and you don't talk about the other features and then you're marketing the same exact company the same exact product in the fitness niche saying it's going to give you an analysis of the sort of workouts that you need to do and >> so I feel like that's kind of a thread that you guys are pulling on where like >> within education you can market as a cheating tool. >> Correct. >> And then the more general branding you don't have to kind of pigeon hole yourself. Yeah. >> I don't know if you remember, but like back when we met in LA LA, like this is
3:49 something that you told me like like you wish you did what you did with UMAX was like you had the hook of of like the face rating thing and then you funneled it into something that was like more less viral as a concept but more sustainable as a business and like like like that that like I think about that pretty often like like that is what I think the cheat on everything is. It's like the viral hook that will get you to download and try clearly but underneath is like a like a bigger than that. >> And I mean it's what you guys did with interview coder right that was like specifically cheat on like this very small subset you branch out. you're like, "Oh, kind of cheat on everything." And now you're like, "Oh, wait. There probably like other like versions of cheat on everything that fall under the always on uh context." >> I agree. >> That's awesome. Do you guys ever consider building like uh like hardware? >> Yeah, I mean this is like pretty inevitable. Um but I I I think many
4:34 people are making the bet right now. They're making the bet too early. Like I think the tech isn't there for there to be a decisive winner right now. And honestly, like if you don't have billions in the bank, then you probably can't like compete meaningfully. And I I might just be [ __ ] coping here. But like what we know we can compete meaningfully in is like in the software space. And I feel like there hasn't been an established winner despite the fact that the tech probably is there for software. Someone just needs to make like a swing at it with like with like a decent amount of money. And uh that's what we have. How about like um you know if the thesis is that context and memory are the core constraints. Yeah. >> Um which in my experience they are um you know why not build a sort of wrist recorder something that can capture everything that you say uh and maybe
5:19 even when you're not at your computer or phone you can speak to it and then it'll auto sync up through Bluetooth cuz passing text back and forth is super easy. um sync up with Cleuly via Bluetooth. Do you think that that would be within the road map? >> Yeah, almost certainly it's in the road map. If we get sufficiently big enough, then we'll be in hardware like like we like I keep talking about brain chips like I'm dead serious like eventually like if if we keep winning then we will one day do brain shifts. That's where like the end end state of everything is. But like for now, I think um what I see as like like the way AI functions in society, I I I really don't I'm not that bullish on like it's pretty ironic because the launch video is me using AI on a date, but like that I feel like is the most least compelling use case of AI. Like AI probably isn't going to augment social relations as much as it will augment like um administrative work or just like busy work you do on your
6:05 computer. Like right now, I feel like there's probably about 80 to 90% of things that people do on their computer, you shouldn't have to do on your computer. And in in all honesty, I don't think the risk recorder is going to solve that in like the next six to six months to a year. But an an AI with deep OS level data on what you do, how you do it, that can then train like like a tech models that that that will like send out emails for you, like like draft draft essays for you, like like do all this admin work that you do on your computer. The technology is there for that. And I feel like that's actually much more interesting and probably a more viable use case of AI and like assisting on a date. Yeah, I certainly agree with like the augmenting social relations and serving as like a dating assistant like a an actual you know I built a AI dating assistant but an actually effective one is a little ways out. Um and I would also agree that you know the sort of
6:51 like uh simple administrative work is the first one to get cut though in my experience um like one of the reasons that I'm very bullish on the wrist recorder. I started building it for a little bit and then I was like similar I was like man this is just going to be such a [ __ ] headache. I need so much capital. I don't really want to undertake this right now. Uh but I built out like a sort of like a one that didn't fit on my wrist but that I could carry around and it was very effective. And in my experience it's like yes the administrative work is being um automated but then the key bottleneck is like knowing what I need done and I still have to go and actively explain that. Um whereas if I had something that
7:36 had perfect context, uh I mean you know we experience it nowadays with chat GPT with the improved memory handling it just becomes like so much more and more and more effective >> as you use it. Now that said um you know I I I definitely don't think that it's a bad take that it's like okay let's give it a couple years to to sort of prioritize that technology. >> The the improvements that you guys have made to the product are pretty awesome. Thank you. >> Um I from what I've seen and experienced uh the big unlock has been adding new tools and the sort of uh you know you guys just added deep search right? What it's it's like our own variation of deep search but yeah. >> Okay. So did you guys build out custom web scraping for that or search is built
8:23 into the API but we have like a very specific uh knowledge pipeline like like for example the whole like like chain of thought reasoning like like those papers are out and we just have like a variant of that in-house but it's not it doesn't take nearly as long as the deep research is one of the goals here to kind of like uh hit product parody with uh chat GPT you know uh the the classic uh current desktop chat apps and yet also O have that sort of always on mechanism where you can go in and manually uh have the same functionality that you have with the chat GPD desktop app but then also have this kind of like passive uh view of what you're doing. Yeah. I think like like right now what like like I I think the big problem that cursor solved was like like the AI code editor solved was
9:08 now you don't have to go copy your code paste it in chatbt and then paste it back into your code editor. Now you can just do it in one place. And I think I think right now there's enough work in the world of you take a screenshot, you paste in chat, you you get an answer and then you go back and you work on the thing you took a screenshot of like like that in itself feels like a very interesting thing to me. Like for example, you're on Google Cloud Platform, you don't know how to navigate any of it. You're like trying to learn how to edit videos, you don't know how to navigate the software like like there there's so many cases I think where an AI that sees your screen always is uh very useful. Even if it has zero memory about you and even if it doesn't have feature paired with Chach BT um and and and to me what like the chachbt desktop app is like fairly unimpressive. All all it can do is really it's like just it's a desktop app that hooks up to the tragic API which is like I feel like like really anybody can build that. >> Yeah. What I find impressive is uh the advancements that they've made in memory
9:55 with regards to like when to pull on different things that you've asked before. Um as well as I think like search is pretty impressive to be honest. Like I haven't I haven't used any other products where I'm like oh wow like that's smooth. That's that fast. Um, and I I feel that in like these sort of mass consumer products, these like these few percent improvements, it in my estimation like all the the the the Frontier LLMs are like pretty much the same. >> Um, but then the big difference is just like what's the UX? How smooth is the the actual application? >> Oh man. Wait, I I agree with you completely. Like like we're we're we're like spending like 300k a year on designers now. I I feel like if you're in consumer like like it has to feel perfect. >> It has to feel so buttery smooth. Well,
10:40 this is I mean this is just what Perplexity did early on. >> Perplexity, man. I [ __ ] hate the term rapper. I'm like Perplex everyone loves Perplexity. And like don't get me wrong, like I like them. I actually don't think that they're really like uh where they were. >> Yeah. >> But like they don't they're not training foundational models. I think that they uh you know they had the right thesis which was okay uh you know let the massive labs compete and training the foundational models we're just going to try to compete on UX. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly like I feel like that's I I feel like that's that's like the entirety of the AI application layer, right? Is just uh like like the UX like how you will experience AI outside of an outside of just going to chatpt.com. And there's like a multi-t
11:26 trillion dollar industry. I think there's like so much money to be made in this um like like right now in the current state of the world like like you're kind of you're kind of me like hearkening to this before but like like so many people don't know what ChadBt is and so many people don't know that if you prompt it a specific way you can do a specific thing because like when you have a completely blank canvas like it just doesn't really help um like like people just aren't that creative. You have to force them to like you have you have like there's so many verticals they can go in like even very shallow verticals like uh like like take a picture of yourself and tell me how attractive I like that in itself, you can print [ __ ] tens of millions of dollars off that. >> People are just uh they just don't know. >> Do you would you ever consider embedding these sort of like single function tools within Culy uh where maybe you have like some sort of like a almost like GBT store but better.
12:11 >> What I if if we were to do it, it would be on the fly like in the moment predict like like generated in the moment. um when when so so I I I think what what the most interesting thing about Cluey is and I feel like the biggest differentiator we have is that we are like >> predictive not responsive like like in a call we will like try and predict the prompts that you will you you will want to ask and then we'll just like surface them so you can just like like click and get an answer rather than actually having to type something out and right now it's it's transparently like 50% of them are pretty useless 50% of them are pretty okay um but but this will only get better and this is what we're going to do >> expecting feedback I'm assuming on like the give the thumbs up >> yeah yeah well more than thumbs is just like if you have if you see four prompts on the screen, which one do you end up clicking? And then eventually like we'll be able to get to a point where we have really really good prompts. Like we'll
12:57 always know what exactly which prompt you have. And I can imagine that that this is where that sort of like GPT storeesque feature comes in where it's it's it's more than just a prompt. Like now it's actions. Like for example, we're talking and maybe it will suggest schedule dinner at 7 with Blake later or something or like you know like like like like message this girl on Hinge and it would be like like go on and go out and do these things like that would be what the Cluey store looks like. >> Do you guys plan to build a mobile app? Yeah, we have uh like someone coming in like like next week they're going to start like like four days actually they're going to start working. >> So how I don't know if you want to say too much here, but like um my understanding is that you you can't really have the same sort of passive monitoring correct on mobile. So then what does it look like? >> What you can have is is something that just like listens and gives you feedback real time. So you you're in a meeting, you hit record on your phone and it will constantly surface like maybe like
13:43 questions you should ask, information you should know, and it'll just happen live. >> Makes sense. It is interesting how you guys are kind of coming at the, you know, sort of I think I heard in your podcast with Molly, you said something along the lines of like we shouldn't have all these different AI tools. It should just be like one or two [ __ ] tools that you use, which I totally agree with. Um and it's interesting how you guys are coming to this space from like the okay let's collect the real time sort of notetaking style data um and use that to be to be proactive about the recommendations that we make for people and uh that that seems like y'all's key bet which is like we collect real time and we make the predictions about what people want before they know what they actually want that that will be the kind
14:29 of final form uh AI uh you know that that that the average consumer uses. is yeah I think like like every single consumer AI startup in the world like some variant like some very watered down variant of the ultimate AI which is like the hyperpersonalized assistant knows everything about you and it can go out and perform actions for you and what like like this is like essentially like super Jarvis and um like like the technology will probably get there at some point in the next 10 years like everyone is fighting to see who who gets to be the main distributor of of of that Jarvis and I think when when you really think about this future where this world exists like Jarvis exists like I don't think you will always have to ask Jarvis hey Jarvis what should I for dinner today. Like Jarvis will will just it'll just know and then it will predict it for you. >> Dude, so I saw this like um maybe like like schizophrenic spiritual whatever
15:14 video on TikTok today, but this guy like Preston, I think. >> Oh, I think I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah, the guy the complete [ __ ] GPT sch Yeah. Yeah, but he wrote it was about like quantum mirror AI. Did you watch this? >> I I saw a clip of this. >> I swear this [ __ ] was a 20 minute video on Tik Tok. I watched every second of it and I thought that it was gonna like go really like um man I don't want to talk [ __ ] here. I felt like it was kind of technically lacking a little bit but I love the I love the uh his general take. I'm actually reading man in his symbols by Carl Jung right now. Um are you familiar with Jung's concept of like the the unconscious? >> Uh no no enlighten me. Um so essentially it's you know somewhat similar to like the Freudian idea of the uh subconscious
16:01 but essentially that we have this sort of like a um deep within our our brain our mind we have these unc unconscious these unconscious operations going on uh where for example like information that you may have completely forgotten you can be hypnotized and then they can pull that information out of you >> um >> okay so one of Yung's points is that we have these different sort of personalities within us. Um, and the guy in the video was talking about how we're not always operating at our highest level performance. I don't think I am right now. Like I got bad sleep last night. I've been car bloating today cuz I have the marathon tomorrow. I'm just like not all that intelligent. Now he was talking about uh training uh your AI
16:48 you know be it through uh prompt engineering fine-tuning whatever so that it can kind of serve as a quantum mirror of yourself where anytime you're operating at like a lower uh frequency in terms of your intelligence uh you know spiritual plane whatever you can refer back to this sort of LLM version of yourself that is operating at its highest level of capacity >> you know I think that that is what the one of the core functions of like this Jarvis that we're all going to use is like it's going to be able to uh match and map to our personality but then help us make the decisions when maybe we're not operating at that highest level of of intelligence. If if I am bearish on anything with artificial I I I I think
17:34 probably the last frontier of uh AI in general is going to be like humor or and and and I think humor is like uh an abstraction on top of like humans like our innate tastes and preferences and and I I find it if there is something like like such a thing as a as a soul or something that makes us like human then I think it would be that like when I wake up in the morning and I decide you know what today would be a great day for me to go outside and like like walk out just just get a coffee or when when I look at a girl and I determine like wow this is this is is a pretty girl and I would like to make kids with her, you know, like I'm I'm going to go talk to her. Like I I I I want to think that this is like something that is innate about my humanity and that this will be like the final frontier when I look at a video and think it's funny. Like I like to think that AI will not be able to uh to pass that cuz if it does then I think it will be more human than us. And um I I think like like at that point like the Jarvis will be able to do more than just like be a quantum mirror. It'll just
18:20 like replace you entirely almost. Yeah, it seems clear to me that like um uh there certainly is more to being human and being conscious than intelligence. Uh but that we're doing a pretty [ __ ] good job replicating intelligence right now in these uh large language models and that you know if uh we look at our life in terms of like our strategic decision-m it's probably best to kind of pass most of that along to the AI version of yourself. And then in terms of the sort of like more intimate human side of things, like maybe maybe we we can't uh outsource that just yet. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm not sure. There's like man, I've had so many conversations last few days about like like like what the ASI AGI world looks like. Honestly, I can't say like like
19:06 honestly like my mind my mind changes about it every uh every every few hours. >> Where are you currently at? >> Me currently I I I think it's definitely coming within our lifetimes. Probably like next 10 20 years. um when it comes I I am optimistic. I think like like you know like people solve chess and people are still playing chess more than ever or like robots solve chess. People still want to play chess. I feel like as a human I know that I'm going to be motivated to do things. Uh even with um even if AI just like if I can have to snap my fingers, get a hamburger, snap my fingers, get like an AI girlfriendship to me. Feel like I'm still going to want to do things. Like I I I I want to think that I'm still going to want to like go out and like talk to real women >> for sure. Well, I mean dude, like I don't know. I sometimes think about like simulation theory and whatnot. And I'm like, dude, I [ __ ] love video games, right? Well, like maybe this is just a video game, but that's great because
19:52 this is like a very very fun, enjoyable >> version. I actually had some questions here about about girls. >> Okay. >> Um, so how has your dating life changed since uh since you became the most famous kid in Silicon Valley? Bro, I feel like, bro, it's like I I I I think I'm like too busy to do to go on as many dates as I used to when I was at Columbia. But also, I feel like, bro, I'm not even there's like [ __ ] 10 girls in San Francisco, bro. Even if I wanted to, there's nothing I can do out here man. >> Okay. But like, are you getting inbound from like way less than you would think, bro? Like, really? >> I need a more jack and handsome, man. >> Man, I don't know. I feel like I feel like maybe you just got to uh make it clear that you're single and looking. Oh, I I post like a short list pick on Instagram every other week. I could not
20:39 make it more clear, man. >> Oh, dude. Yeah. Maybe the same way that um Cle is pivoting to, you know, hit short form social media and hit the mass consumer market, maybe we got to expand beyond the the tech girls. Figure out how do we make royally marketable to like hot blonde sorority girls. >> When we hire some clippers, just shoot their straps at me. Do you I have this written down as well. Do you want a traditional marriage? Because I think I've heard you say that you want to kind of be like Gangaskhan. I mean I like the plan A is I find a wife who's loyal, she doesn't cheat on me, she doesn't have like guy friendss or what the [ __ ] and she doesn't like like go out and like [ __ ] like act crazy. Um that's plan A. But if I can't find that uh whether it's here in like the rice farm in Korea, like if I can't
21:24 find that then yeah, like I'm I'm going have like [ __ ] 40 baby mamas and I'm going to start a village. It's funny. I kind of have like the opposite thing here. Not in that like that's the let me let me uh put this into an example. >> Yes. >> I feel like you hold all else equal. >> Um you know in the like hardest of hearts you ask ask most guys like if you can have four women that are loyal to you and you marry all them and they're all great girls like would you do it? They'd be like [ __ ] yeah do that. Um, but you know, we we enter into monogous relationships because like that is a very unlikely sort of scenario to be able to maintain those relationships healthfully. >> I'm like, man, if if you can pull that off, that seems pretty cool. Um, but you
22:12 know, settle for monogamy. Yo, if my future wife is watching this, I'm kidding. This is a joke. If it's multiple future wives, though, that was very serious. very happy turned out like >> yeah I think I I don't know I I I haven't experienced what like this whole like true love to the point of like oh my god I want to marry this woman like spend the rest of my life with her if if such a feeling exists and and I hope that it does exist because I've seen some happy marriages then I would like to be monogous and not have to like like spread my attention across so many people. It's definitely more stressful, I'm sure. Like just takes a lot more out of you. And to your point, like trying to scale this company, I'm sure that you're never going to become like less obligated than you were. >> Yeah, probably. >> Final question in this thread, would you ever take steroids? >> Me? I think as soon as they get to a
22:59 point where like FDA determines that this is like a healthy like like Yeah. Like like [ __ ] yes, I take steroids. >> Feel like most peptides are pretty >> Yeah. I mean, I I would likely take most things. I I I I I have like a very firm belief on this. And I think the reason why 99% of people don't take steroids is not because they're worried about the health effects. It's because like they're genuinely too [ __ ] lazy to go get steroids and inject and inject it. Like like it's it's laziness and fear. And I think like most people in America are it's a combination of laziness, fear, and stupidity. Like first you have to be like intelligent enough to realize that oh it's probably not a good thing for me to be be [ __ ] obese and like like 200 lb like 400 lb. And it's probably better if I was much healthier. Like you have to and you have to realize that this should be a north star. If you are [ __ ] over 250 lbs unless you're 67. >> The only thing that you should be focused on is like get [ __ ] healthy.
23:45 >> Yes. And and and clearly like what you've done in the past is not [ __ ] working and you you can cope all you want about like oh I'm going to go hit the gym and do it a healthy way. Like man shut your fat ass up. You're not going to do that. Realistically you need to start taking some extreme measures. And I think over 70% like 70% of America is overweight. like like like once you get to that point, I think um the only argument to not take steroids for you like like being an obese person is because you're like [ __ ] lazy and you can't you can't source them. >> Sure. I would agree for obese people, but what about you? Like why wouldn't why aren't you taking them? You said because you're waiting for for more uh clear studies. >> I like I at this point I'm I'm happy enough with my physique that I think that there are like there's like a probably like a 20 to 30% improvement I can make by like truly truly dialing in everything. But uh I think that 20 to 30% is not enough for me to like gamble my fertility.
24:30 >> Dude, to be honest, like I don't for me it's not about the physique, the reason that I want to take them. I have many friends that have taken them. They all say you feel [ __ ] amazing. They're like 247 you feel like you're on the top of the world. But you know, maybe that's uh like probably about half of them after taking steroids, they stopped, got off, maybe PCTed. Some did, some didn't. And then most of them just like stopped lifting. They lost interest in it because they were like I'm never gonna get that feeling back. >> It's kind of like don't have sex on Molly, you know, because it's like it'll be too good. Like you'll never be able to recreate anything like it. >> Um, okay. On a slightly more serious note, how do you handle the stress of
25:15 being like so [ __ ] viral going from relative obscurity last like fall to now you're probably the most well-known person under the age of 30, maybe like excluding Alexander Wang in the tech world? Uh, does that ever stress you out? Like how do you handle that? I think uh it it's it's probably it was pretty it was way more stressful at the start than it is now. But it gets to a point where it's like you're so far path you're you're so far away from like the path trotten like like the trotten path that that you're just like all right like [ __ ] it. Like nobody's doing what I'm doing like I might as well just keep doubling down. And at one point I feel like doubling down doesn't even feel like doubling down anymore. It feels like uh I'm just like what else can I do? Like it's not like I can [ __ ] try to reform myself right now and all right
26:01 take it all back. All the controversial [ __ ] I take it all back. Like I'm I'm I'm just going to be a software engine. Like I can't do that. Like I'm I'm like for I've burned all of the bridges. >> Take it all back. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Like I'm I'm here. I might as well see if there's light at the end of this tunnel. And I feel like uh this this is how this is how empires get built. >> Are you familiar with the story of like the big Zarestra nu? >> Um I think niche is super interesting as a whole. Uh but the that story is great, but then also like his uh idea of like master slave morality, which >> you know maybe isn't the most PC correct what and even just like the best way to view life as a whole, but at the same time I think I've experienced this to some extent too where like as you start to hit this upward trajectory where
26:50 you're beginning to experience a life that like the vast majority of other people will not by way of success. um, relative fame, whatever. Early on, you're kind of stressed out and you're like, "Oh, fuck." And like, you're not really sure whether or not you really want to lean fully into it, and you start to hit that exponential, and you're like, "Oh, well, maybe I should try to slow it down and like stay a little bit more normal." And then you get to a point where you're like, "Fuck it, all the way." >> And it, you know, you start to experience like some level of like >> uh euphoria. You're like, "Oh [ __ ] like I I kind of have complete freedom now." Yeah, I think um the the the the way that I describe it to people is like like I think risk tolerance is not something that you are born with. Like right now people look at me and think like man this guy's crazy. He's taking
27:36 these big big risks. But for me like when I when I make a crazy video, it is really not that risky. I'm not risking anything. Like it's already my branding and everything. Um but but for you to do it at the start like it it takes a while before you realize like oh [ __ ] taking risks is like really really good and almost always positive EV. In fact, looking back on my life, I've never ever taken a risk that I regret. Um I've never ever taken a risk that has not somehow down the line paid off tremendously. >> Yeah. I think the the positive EV part there is key because it's like, you know, let's say uh four in every five risks you take, you're like [ __ ] fail. And it's like minus one. And then most people are like, you know, you shouldn't take risks. It's bad. You know, because if you take two, you're going to be minus two. While everyone else is kind of at baseline and now they're all like, look at that. Look at that idiot, dude. you just you know you know taking risk bad but then one in
28:23 every five maybe is 10 10 upside um and if you're the sort of person where you're like I'm just going to keep compounding like ah uh rescended from Harvard I don't care keep going uh kicked out of Columbia don't care keep going and then you have the big clearly moment and everyone's like wow he just got so lucky because >> Oh ex Exactly exactly exactly >> and you're like man like you you've never done anything to put yourself in that position of of sacrifice where like you're going to lose something uh most likely keep doing it and then you gain a lot. >> Yeah, I agree. I think I think people massively underplay how uh how much your life can change positively after taking a big risk. Like really it is so easy to um win in the world. And I think like right now in the world it is really easy
29:09 to be reasonably fit, healthy, and make a bunch of money in AI. like like this this is pro it's probably the easiest in the it's never before been easier to like just build something make make a [ __ ] ton of money and get in great shape like there there's never a gym that's more than 20 minutes away from you there's it's never been easier to eat healthier like like it's so easy to quit the code backstate and I talk about this all the time where people are always asking him they're like man how how do you do that exactly he's like dude this isn't that hard he's like dude I was in a fraternity in college like I was president of my fraternity and I was still going to the gym and working out and you know uh working on building my skills, getting good jobs, whatever. Um you know I think it's multifaceted like I think that there are a few things that you have to
29:54 balance. It's like on one end for example like attaining significant uh professional success. >> Yeah. >> I do think if you're like sub 110 IQ it's going to be really hard. >> So like you got to kind of be there. And so then there gonna be people that say, "Well, you just got lucky because you're smart and blah blah blah blah blah." It's like to some extent, yes. But if you have table stakes, right, you're smart enough, you're charismatic enough, you you have like the core kind of um the core underlying attributes, then it's really just a game of choice. It's like are you taking big risks? Are you are you making sacrifice? Are you working hard? >> Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think most things in life are I don't know there's this like concept that that that that someone told me it's like winners effect and I think it like really perfectly
30:39 encapsulates pretty much everything I think I think everything in life is like whether it's massive success massive failure massive like moral evil moral good like pretty much anything that is unique and like outlier it all can be traced back to like a single event and uh this is like your first win your first risk payoff like like your first big risk you took that that like paid off and um it can be as simple as I don't know like like you moved two chairs in kindergarten and some some girl looked at you and said, "Wow, you're so strong." All of a sudden, that's that made you think like, "Okay, I'm a strong kid now." And that that got you to the gym doing sports and now you're [ __ ] 30 and your brothers are all fat while while you're while you're fit. Like like it could be as simple as that. And but like like I feel like you always need and and for content for content it's like you're you just do a bunch of viral you you try a bunch of series one of them goes viral and then you keep doubling down on that and like that's like your first big your your f your your your first big win. And uh
31:25 it's it sends you down a chain of winners effect. I feel people just do not know. They cannot if you if you've never felt it, you cannot [ __ ] fathom what Winners's Effect feels like. It >> it's it's flow state. It's getting hot, right? It's like why is it that you can try 20 pieces of content, everyone flops, then you get one hits, and then the next 10 [ __ ] hit. It's like that's not just what' you say, >> you're the luckiest guy in the world. >> Yeah. Literally, it's like but no, it's like you you start to understand um and I think that all all kind of like top performers across any domain recognize this that it's not just simply a game of probability with regards to the sort of action that you take in life and how you position yourself. Now, I like the example that you brought up of, you know, being told as a kindergartener
32:10 like, "Wow, you're so fit." Um were you like, did you have any of those formative moments when you were a kid? Were you super rebellious? Were you always that way? Or was there some sort of key inciting incident for you? >> I think like probably my my earliest memory um in my life was like this this show and tell I did in kindergarten. And at the show and tell like I'd come I'd bring like this Korean picture book and it it have some Korean words. At the time I couldn't [ __ ] read Korean. I go and then and then I tell I start speaking [ __ ] gibberish in Korean and I pretend like I'm reading the Korean book and every day and then I translate in English. So in English, what that means is like like and then I just make up the craziest [ __ ] stories just to see what reactions I could get out of people. And I remember like always thinking like the most dopamineeric feeling that I can ever get like like for me like like sex on Molly is uh when
32:57 I'm in front of a crowd and I I see I I'm able to like create like very charged reactions whether positive or negative. Like like there's there's nothing that that gives me more of a high than that. So, is it do you think that it comes from like a comedic sense of wanting to u you know make people laugh and experience joy or is it more of like a social engineering sense of like huh I wonder how the masses are going to react if I do this rather than this? >> Yeah, it's it's probably the second I think like like I don't even care if the reactions are particularly good. Like always for everything that I've done, it's been like a 50% of people really like it. 50 or probably usually less than 50 or like like there's a small group of people that really really like what I'm doing and then the vast majority just think like wow this kid is crazy but uh I don't know there's just something about doing something that like people will like look at you and
33:42 think like wow what the [ __ ] that that that that just makes me like I don't know just like a mental erection for me has it been a weird transitioning or transition going from this sort of like all right I am beholden to nobody I can just kind of test whatever I want with the masses [ __ ] around I don't really care to you know now I have a company and I have people that rely on me and I have some like increased level of responsibility as well as the things that I do actually carry some weight and will shape the trajectory of the tech world as a whole which invariably shapes shapes the future of earth and the rest of humanity. Do you feel that sort of like oh [ __ ] now I got got more or are you like [ __ ] it I'm just going to keep doing me? I I think I think like
34:28 relative to me as I was like months ago, probably I I am a little bit more thoughtful about what I put out, but relative to other people, I think I'm still like four or five sigma above the mean in terms of like what I'm willing to do with the brand risk. But like like for example, like I probably wouldn't go out on Twitter and like tweet the nword like like it would it would be like exciting as [ __ ] and I'd be like wow like holy [ __ ] >> This is becoming very popular on short form. Have you seen it? I see it when people just say >> TJR, Clvicular, like I know multiple different guys that are just they're just ripping it now. They do not care. It's crazy. I'm like, man, I you uh you said on Molly's podcast as well, you were like Twitter is just the tech world as a whole is just two years behind the rest of the world. Yeah. when it comes to uh sort of entertainment, social uh
35:16 sort of stuff, whereas it's it's like two years ahead on tech, two years behind in the sort of >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Um you know, more social domain. >> Do you think that somebody in the tech world is going to come on and just start ripping the nword? I'm like 100% sure this will happen. Like like you already see it happening now with like the like there's some big creators who are like ambient. They're like 10% black and they'll just like rip it every other tweet. It's like damn. Well, there are some guys on like money Twitter and like esoteric health Twitter. I know that do it, but no one like really in the >> This is coming. Yeah, this is coming. This is coming. >> Yeah, that'll be crazy. Crazy. >> Okay, so you draw the line there. Um, are there sort of other other uh like um
36:02 considerations that you have like things that you topics you want to stay away from because the effect that you might have or are you more like do you view yourself more so just as a vessel of of um of you know what is viral and you just lean into that and like the the masses are going to kind of decide what does well. >> The the thing that I try to stay away from is like speaking on topics that I don't really know much about. Um, but but I'm I'm very happy to like say the most controversial [ __ ] about like dating or like I don't know like like [ __ ] that it's not really like uh super influential in the world. It's just like like like friendships, dating, you know, like work life balance. Like I'm happy to talk all day about that, but like when you when you ask me about like the [ __ ] Israel Palestine like conflict. I I I don't know what the [ __ ] like is going on there. Like I probably wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't say anything there. >> I think you uh you definitely embody um
36:49 I think it's Charlie Mer's phrase which is maybe Warren Buffett, one of the two. Yeah. >> Praise specifically criticized generally. I think that when you're talking [ __ ] you make it about like this sort of >> Yeah. >> topic as a whole rather than picking a person and being like this [ __ ] idiot, you know? Um, but I do think that that's good. Like I don't I don't really see you like going after like targeted attacks on people. >> Yeah. I mean, I think I think most people I I don't understand why people do that. Like >> I do it sometimes. >> I I I I don't even think you do. But I think I think almost all everything that I've seen from you is like strictly like like in retaliation to someone who's who's like going after you first. And I feel like >> Oh, I never go after people first. I find that to be so antisocial. >> Yeah. >> Like that's so weird, bro.
37:35 >> Life is life is like it's not it's not zero sum. And I think like always like it is always better to just like turn the other cheek. >> Yeah, it's a good point, >> man. I don't know what it is, but like sometimes people come after me, I'm just like [ __ ] you. Like [ __ ] >> I I I like I like fully have like a notebook of like every single person who's like written a hate comment or like even like like something like a like a hate comment about me just so I can remember like oh like like oh yeah [ __ ] you but uh like I I won't do it publicly or anything. >> Have we told you about our plan for App Mafia by the way? >> Um I've I've heard I've heard threads from Zach and Zach and Alex. >> All right. I'll have to tell you a little bit more off camera. Uh but we're pulling on some of the plays from your playbook. Oh, I like the wash by the way. Look at you. >> Thank you. Yeah, I got this uh got this for girls, bro. Like every like like all the jewelry I have on >> Did we speak about this? >> What? >> Cardier.
38:21 >> No. No, we didn't. >> How long have you had it? >> This is It came like a week ago. >> Dude, that's so funny. >> Why? >> I've said for a while I'm like, if you're a dude that wants to get girls, you don't get Rolex. I actually used to have one and then I lost it. You don't get Rolex. You don't even get like AP's PC. I think a Cardier will outperform a PC. >> Well, I agree with this completely. Yeah. cuz no one knows what they'll see it be like [ __ ] is that what's going on? >> Yeah. Well, like like even even like this like a van I'm pretty sure it's like strictly a women's brand or something. >> 100%. Absolutely. I know a bunch of uh I know some guys in the the internet money boys do a good job um with the with the female drip essentially. You got all like the dainty jewelry, the [ __ ] Van Cleave. >> Exactly. Exactly.
39:06 >> It's a good play. I like it. >> If if I was on an island with nothing but men, like we'd all be >> No. No. I would not wear anything. >> We'd be completely naked. Maybe we would wear sweatpants sometimes and we just [ __ ] bench press all day. Like pretty much everything I do is for the sake of women. >> Yeah. No, that's super valid. That I mean that was pretty much the thesis behind every app that I've built. Exactly. >> Which is that I think the biological imperative makes the world go around. >> You agree with this. Okay. >> You know, um do you have like a >> do you think that people are pretty explicit about that or do you find that you know most people kind of like try to sidestep around that fact? Yeah, this is I I think most people like pretty much every single person I've talked to, you can trace back their their core desires to like something pretty primal. And I think gen generally like everyone's
39:51 ideal state of life was like the the life that we lived as hunter gathers 30,000 years ago where you would go and like the most exciting thing you would do is you'd go out with with a group of your boys, you go to the jungle and then you'd look for the [ __ ] biggest animal and you'd like try to go try to kill it and bring it back for the sake of like [ __ ] flexing on all the women in the village and like like like gaining status in the tribe. And like I feel like there's modern day equivalents of that. And like that this is why everyone dreams of like oh the startup with your friend. Like like why is that exciting to pretty much everyone? Why does every nerdy engineer want that? Every frapp why why are fraternities even a thing where you just have like this close group of of essentially like like brothers may like maybe brothers and sisters that are just like going after relentlessly like this one big goal that is like like scarily ambitious. Why is this so enticing to people? It's like obviously it's the [ __ ] innate biological driver of ours that that that that tells us go out and
40:37 hunt the king of the jungle. And um I think most people like like the only reason people find joy in things that are not explicitly that uh is because like there's been like some weird winners effect that that's been >> some sort of indirect way that it all ties. >> Exactly. I mean, dude, you look at like the reason that most people I don't think take big risks in their career is exactly this as well. It's like u they're not taking the big risk because the downside of lowering their sort of position in the social hierarchy is that they get a less high quality mate. And so that I mean like most people are like I'm comfortable with where I am. I'm going to have a good career and I'm going to get someone who like somewhat maps to me. Whereas I I I think I observe and experience often
41:24 the people that are the most ambitious are like, "No, I want to be able to kind of like have my own selection." Um, were you in a fraternity at Columbia? >> I I fully tried to rush the Asian frat, but uh they all thought I was weird. >> Really? >> Yeah. Like there was probably like 90% of Colombia undergrads probably thought I was weird to some degree. I was uh I was in a fraternity at two lane and it's um I mean it's like entirely oriented around uh just like guy to girl ratio at parties. That's pretty much it. >> Okay. Uh I want to bring this back to personal branding a little bit. What do you think most people get wrong about personal branding? I feel like it's becoming super popular. It's like you need to grow your personal brand. Most people try to do it with like zero foundation.
42:10 >> Um for someone that's in that position like what are most people doing wrong? >> I think um people don't like I feel like the one thing you need to understand and like this is something even I have to remind myself all the time is that the internet forgets and the only time the internet will not forget is if you die and if you just if you just like like like stop talking about something. The reason Donald Trump is where he's at, the reason Elon Musk is where he's at, [ __ ] Andrew Tate is where he's at is cuz cuz like like you do something crazy and then you just keep [ __ ] doubling down and you you you you just keep putting yourself into the cultural zeitgeist cuz once you're out like you're you're remembered as the last thing that you did and the last thing if if it's not pretty then like you'll be remembered like you you will never get the chance to restore your reputation. There's always a chance to come back because the internet always [ __ ] forgets. I guarantee you the astronomer CEO could come back and like like start
42:55 as a [ __ ] personal trainer tomorrow if he wanted to. Like people just forget like damn that was crazy that he cheated on his wife 5 years ago. And like like you can do like like who who's who's that one guy from friend like like Charlie Charlie something like he's got he got caught doing like hookers and blow and had a bunch of strippers and he just [ __ ] he's like completely unfazed and he just [ __ ] like like took it and just just kept rolling and he was still the highest paid actor in the world. >> Are you talking about Charlie Sheen? >> Yes. Charlie Sheen. Exactly. Like four years after that he was like the highest paid in the world. That I think it was 60 Minutes interview might be one of the funniest interviews of all time man. That was so good. Yeah. >> So, I I think you need to realize that uh short form rewards outrageous things. Whether it's an outrageous scenario or like an outrageous situation or you just saying something outrageous, that's what the algorithm rewards. And once you do that enough times, you can always rebrand. The internet will always
43:40 forget. And the only thing that will kill you is if you stop posting. Yeah, I would generally agree with that. Like I do think that um credibility and social capital are real things. And yet at the same time it's like, you know, you look at Andrew Tate, one of the most canceled people on the internet, is hanging out at UFC fights with Donald Trump. It's like, you know, >> correct. >> It seems like the real currency is uh, you know, it's just attention. >> I mean, even someone like Donald Trump, like obviously he's not doing too hot right now, >> but like that man launched a memecoin, you know. >> Exactly. Exactly. Donald Trump launched a memecoin right after uh or right before right after becoming pre I think right after becoming president of the
44:26 United States. And I think that in these eras of like increased sort of volatility um especially with tech growing as quickly as it is, it's like the worst thing that you can do is be irrelevant and have no one care about you. Distribution's becoming more important. There's so much opportunity to capture in the world. like the the the biggest risk that you can take is not taking uh enough risk at all. I think that Peter Teala said that to Mark Zuckerberg like there's a classic quote something along those lines a number of years back but I feel like you really embody that. >> Yeah. I think um even right now like I feel like most people realize oh wow it's like I don't know there there's like VCEs that that call the world of launch videos like pre and post Cleuly
45:11 and um I I think it's it's it's like true. It's it's like it's like this is how short form should have been. And when I first got on tech Twitter, I remember being so surprised like this is so [ __ ] different from Instagram, Tik Tok, like why are these people like posting these essays about Bitcoin that nobody [ __ ] understands? And um I feel I feel like I feel like uh the world is normalizing towards what the algorithm like truly rewards and um it was just inevitable. >> What What's your opinion of VCs as a whole? Like how do you kind of like look at them as a group? I think um generally probably most of them are pretty useless but they are capable of giving like important people money and um I think most people are not going to make it but there's few people that like will make it and um those people should be accelerated. Uh, and I and I think you you you are someone who I think is there's like a 0% chance probably that
45:58 you will not be a millionaire for the rest of your life whether you like like no in pretty much pretty much any endeavor from what I've seen you are a hard enough worker and you were intelligent enough that you will make it and I think when someone like you is given the opportunity to like amplify his output by like 100x then I think like like it would just be better for the world. Um, and I think that's what VC VC money gives gives you the ability to do. And I think if I were to be honest like I probably do think like I I'm someone who can like like is capable of changing the world too. And if the money helps me do that faster, like to be honest, like I don't really care if I die homeless or like like a millionaire. Like I I like the money itself does not mean that much to me. What is a lot more interesting is the ability to like uh get reactions out of people. Like I would much rather be known as a guy who uh who built this cool thing. And I I like walk away with zero dollars, but just be like the guy behind Cle. That would be way sicker to me than having like a billion dollars in the bank. >> Zach and I speak about this a good
46:44 amount, which is we're like we don't want to work on projects that are not notable. Yeah. Projects that aren't super [ __ ] interesting. Like I don't I don't want to put any time toward like I mean there are B2B SAS founders that are worth billions and billions of dollars that no one knows about and no one gives a [ __ ] about cuz what they do is boring. I never want to be that person in terms of VC as a lever. Like I totally agree. I think it is just a massive lever. The reason that I haven't raised to date is because the scale of the projects that I've worked on just haven't been that big. And I love the freedom of being able to like go around do whatever I want and feel like I don't have like any obligations to other people. >> Yeah. At the same time, I will certainly raise in the future. Like, I think that's an intelligent thing to do. If you're looking to move as quickly as possible and you're working in a competitive space, there's kind of like no other option. Like, you guys could
47:30 have continued to theoretically bootstrap clearly, but >> you would have had to move more slowly and realistically, you probably wouldn't have taken the risk that you've taken to date in terms of, you know, going and hiring someone for $500,000 a year cash comp. You're not really going to do that when you're bootstrapping because the calculus is like >> this is coming out of my [ __ ] pocket. Like I don't want to I mean, dude, I experience that all the time. You find that you try to like cut corners and save money, which is fine financially, but also at the same time it's going to cap the the upside of the business. >> What I find really interesting about VCs is I feel like um there is somewhat of like a predatory relationship between like VCs and the vast majority of founders. >> Yeah. Um, but then you can kind of get to a point where you escape that where
48:16 like then like you're kind of the one in the middle of the pocket where like it's like the VCs in like this ring and the most founders in the outer ring but then you kind of sit in that center pocket where you have most of the leverage. >> Um, do you guys intend to to to raise again? Like are you going to continue to pull on that lever or like uh in the immediate future or do you think that's going to be much later down the line? Yeah, probably like in the immediate future in the next six months to to like max one year, we'll probably raise the next round. I think um like like truly if if we're if we're thinking as big as as far as brain chips like we don't have much time before we need to be at the scale of like one of one of like the big research labs and if that's going to happen like we're not going to get there by by bootstrapping like this this like relative relatively tiny $15 million like round like this is going to pay one month of one of meta scientists salaries
49:03 like like it's it's just it's just a drop in the bucket and we need to go we we need to go way farther. feel like one of the ways that you continue to win is being like a place that people want to work. Just being a really like cool spot for especially upandcomers. Like I mean there is definitely an argument to be made that one of the levers that you can pull on in terms of like the pitches that you make to candidates is being like, "Yo, we've got girls around all the time. Cle like like girls in the tech world like they hear you work at Cluey like that is more clout than saying that you work at Meta. Trust um and that maybe that will enable you to get like the best hardware scientists to work on the brain chips cuz they're like yeah you know I can make like a little bit more at meta but at clearly like
49:50 I've got I've got more ABGs on the line. Bro I wish bro like we're we're always we're always looking for more man. The clue team is like we're like running through Hinge every single day. You probably swipe on every girl in SF. >> Dude, that's so [ __ ] funny. Yeah, SF needs to figure out how to import more uh more talent. >> That's what I'm saying, man. We need a pipeline for UT Austin. >> Yeah, for UT Austin. You like UT Austin? >> I Yeah, there's something about them, man. >> Man, San Diego and Miami, I think, are top two. >> Yeah. Yeah. The UCL UCLA to SF, man. We need like a [ __ ] super train there. >> True. Yeah. You need like >> girls only super >> discount. You're like, "Actually, Gluey is sponsoring free tickets." Um, do you think that you're going to
50:36 end up competing with Eddie on uh >> glasses? >> Yeah, glasses, brain chips. >> I'm I'm I'm not so sure that the form factor of glasses will be like like where things trend. I think people are making a big bet on glasses, but I feel like uh there's like more things that feel more realistic to me in the future. Um I think AirPods are really interesting. I think the only reason we're like pushing on glasses is because well societ a lot of society already wears glasses but it's it's like the only place big enough where you can fit like uh like all the tech you need to to to get this thing fully operational. But I mean if you're if you're betting that the tech is going to get smaller then you don't actually need glasses. You can have something like much smaller which is like I think an AirPod is makes more sense. >> I buy the glasses thesis to be honest. I think that v uh you know visual understanding of the world is important
51:21 and I don't see how you can get that from an airpod like theory. holographic, you know, like I think it tech gets there where you can like fit a whole a full [ __ ] CPU inside inside AirPods and I have no doubt that tech will get there for you to like >> be able to show display. >> Yeah. Like so so um like I I'm really excited about the idea of local inference personally like you will be able to get local inference on a watch this size that's like very [ __ ] powerful within the next couple of years. I think I'm I used to not be bullish on glasses and then have you used like the mixer or even realities ones. >> Uh no, no, I haven't. I've used the metal ones. >> Uh the what? The Ray-B bands? >> Yeah. Yeah, the Ray-B bands. >> So, well the Ray-B bands where it's just like record. >> Correct. Yes. >> So, I'd use those and I was like I don't I don't think I see it. Yeah.
52:07 >> And then I tried the even realities ones and even realities my inclination is like they're a startup so they're going to push product to market pretty
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