0:00 I compare it to somebody driving with their GPS. If they pull up their Google Maps, they move to a new town, they plug in their new work location, let's say it's 15 minutes away, and they just follow that GPS every day, it could take them a month or two to learn how to get from their house. >> Why I like the struggle? Because if I have the struggle, this is my best opportunity to build the board, trust, motivation, and cooperation. Ivan Bella Bananov is a true titan in the dog training industry. Since 1989, he's bred worldclass Belgian meloninois and founded the American Working Malininoa Association. A two-time world champion, 15time national champion, and Hall of Fame inductee of the International Association of Dog Trainers. Ivan's 40-year career includes roles as a guide
0:46 dog instructor, animal behaviorist at the San Francisco SPCA, and owner of a thriving pet training business since 2000. He's trained sport trainers, pet owners police military special forces, and search and rescue teams, presenting at conferences and seminars in countless countries worldwide. Through his training without conflict school, the only one led by a two-time world champion, Ivan offers trainers and dog owners a revolutionary education they can't find anywhere else. Another super important thing about play that food will never do and this is I don't even know how to go with this cuz >> are there any sort of negative consequences that you've seen from perhaps doing too much luring cuz I'll do spins I'll have the dog go through my legs flip into the heel and I
1:32 >> physiology changes emotion and this is really really special and it's there is so much science let's go with the idea of Don't name the behavior until it's meeting your standards. Right. >> There was a lot of conflict because of that lack of communication. What are some of the ways as I said earlier that you've seen issues come up? >> But what training without conflict really stands for is to me it's very simple. It it basically stands for the ability of a trainer. What inspired the name training without conflict and how do you think or how should that be interpreted? >> That that's super super question man. Um
2:21 before I even answer it I will tell you that there is so much confusion and conflict about about the name. Um I really love the name. Um, I will tell you a a very funny story before I even get to explain what the name stands for. There were there were several times where I would go to do a seminar or a workshop particularly somewhere in Europe like like Scandinavian countries, Finland or Sweden or something like this to where it's like the the forcefree communities very very big and very very influential and I would end up with the people that knew me at the time come to the workshop
3:10 but also saw a great deal of people that are actually 100% force-free and some of them are very good trainers and some of them are just really kind of just ideologies and but they they basically confuse the name without conflict. So that means without aversives or without whatever they you can make you you can see how the name is challenging in a lot of ways. Um so it was very interesting to see people coming to my workshops and seminars and being disappointed in the beginning of them and eventually starting to like it
3:56 because they end up not yelling at their dogs. They think that yelling is a well it's a forcefree apparently. Anyway, so that that was interesting. Um, I I got very very early on the opportunity to interact with force trainers and like a hardcore force advocate trainers in my workshops and at the moment, you know, there would be a prone caller or or whatever and there will be a conversation. I I love those times because um you know when you have conversation is different than than
4:43 you know fighting on a keyboard like like you really you it's like hey I mean I I can help you with your dog whichever way you want to. Trust me I know that I can help with I I'm seeing you. I know I can help you. I don't need nothing. I can just give you any advice and go in any directions you want. And so that was one interesting one. And then there was another one on the other spectrum, the other extreme if you want of like the the balance trainers and not so much whatever that balance goes along with but but like in the sport world, the high level sport world, there is always a place and time for
5:31 some conflict because and We we can talk later about this. Um and and I fully agree with that and I absolutely uh uh use some challenges if you want to call it that way in the training. But what training without conflict really stands for is to me it's very simple. It it basically stands for the ability of a trainer to teach something without confusing the dog, without shutting down the dog. And and when you confuse a dog or the dog gets shut down
6:16 and doesn't believe they can solve a puzzle, there is a conflict. And so when I'm talking about conflict, that's the conflict I talk about. But in the small scheme of things, resolving conflict is very beneficial for everybody. For you, for me, for any living species. If you can resolve it, you come out very strong. But there is places and time where you put conflict in a very uh uh planned setup. So, um yeah, that that's really what training without conflict means. It's being a very like being able to create a
7:02 very good plan regardless of what type of training you're doing. Understanding that your training plan most likely it's going to have some holes. And as you go along, you're going to have to be able to improvise and make sure that at the end of the tunnel, the dox is the light and the tunnel is not that long. Right? So that's really what uh uh training without conflict in a in a nutshell is about. it it's basically learn how to teach, learn how to problem solve. And
7:51 I I I can tell you something that probably is going to just really fit in right uh uh into what training without conflict is because uh um you know and again I don't this getting a little bit tricky here but um I don't want to I don't want to say that uh um you know when people use engagement and relationship and there is certain cliche words that are extremely trendy and they've been trendy for at least good 10 years now that you can hear them all the time and sometimes
8:37 it's just in a world of salad but they are just thrown out there because that's the the dog trainers lingo right now. Um so I want to say something about trainer or owner and dog interaction without using these words. And for me, what is important, I call them the ingredients. I need to have a report with my dog. Everybody's going to say, "Duh, of course. Who Who wouldn't want a report?" Well, to have a report,
9:24 what do we need? We need to have effective communication and we need to have something very special and that is conflict resolution skills. This is when things go sideways and how we go about it. Are we forgiving? Are we a good teacher? Are we losing our temper? What do we do when how how good we are in conflict resolution skills? If we're good, we're going to have rapport. But because of that report, because of this effective communication and
10:09 conflict resolution skills, we actually are going to the next super important point and this is trust. Having trust with your dog is is of utmost importance. Not me trusting him, not him trusting me. It's we are trusting each other. This is really really important. And if we lack in having a good report, there is no way the dog is trusting you. Yes, they can perform. They can do amazing things, but they don't have to trust you. And most likely, if you are not trustworthy, they
10:57 are they know it. And and so you have report if the report is good and if only if the report is good you can have trust and trust again is essential. When you have trust then the next ingredient if you want to call it that way would be motivation. When you have trust, you will have healthy motivation. When you don't have trust, you still have motivation, but it's not going along with you. I want that ball, but I want that ball you
11:45 right. So, there is a what I call healthy motivation and unhealthy motivation. And to have that type of motivation that we all strive for, you need to have trust. And to have trust, you need to have a clear rapport that starts from day one. You you build a rapport of who you are towards that dog. How how good you are of explaining and communicating. how good you are of who you are when problems come up. As I said, the conflict resolution skills. So report
12:30 trust, healthy motivation. Now, we need to have shared goals and that goes to cooperation. And when we have cooperation, so let let me break them back again. Report, trust, healthy motivation and cooperation. That's all one would need to do insanely cool things with their dogs. Regardless of being force free, being balanced, being wherever you are because you will
13:16 again when things go wrong, you know how to resolve them. When things go right, you know how to motivate, you have the cooperation, you have the you you have all the ingredients, as I call them. And the one last piece of it if you want that kind of doesn't quite fit in the ingredients but it has to be mentioned and that is the um ethical consideration you know like like how far you're going like do you have to is there a better way right so that's uh um you know when I when I think about what training without conflict is and and like If I start my my at least one of my lessons with my
14:04 classes with my students, that would be uh a part that we will go in very deep so they understand that if you have this component, you have something very special and we can forgive each other, but we have motivation and we have cooperation and we have trust and we have good report. What can we possibly not do that's doable right? >> Yeah. And I like the name training without conflict, too. And I find that very interesting that there was a significant amount of people that assumed that meant that you were pure
14:51 positive, that no conflict or training without conflict meant, well, we're not going to use any sort of punishment within the training. And of course, when we're looking at pure positive or reward-based training, primarily, they use punishment. They just use negative punishment. They often choose not to lean towards the positive punishment. And you said conflict often arises with inadequate or lack of proper communication and of course as you said having a strong rapport that relationship having trust and then healthy motivation as well. What are some of the most common things that trainers do that creates conflict by unintentionally lacking in the communication skills? So,
15:38 like I a quick example, um I had a lesson earlier today and the student wanted me to review her training footage and she was saying multiple commands, not following through with any sort of cue to get the dog to do behavior, saying no, then saying, "Uh-uh, these things didn't mean anything." And because of that, the dog was doing whatever the dog wanted. Now, she wasn't giving the dog any sort of corrections because, of course, poorly timed corrections, and unfair corrections can cause a lot of issues, and she needs to work on her timing on rewards before she does that. But there was a lot of conflict because of that lack of communication. What are some of the ways, as I said
16:24 earlier, that you've seen issues come up from someone not being able to clearly and effectively communicate? Like what are some of the most common mistakes? >> Mhm. Wow. Yeah. It kind of ma makes me almost want to go back and repeat what we just mentioned about the report and trust and motivation cooperation because because there is that element of again when you have all that you also have forgiveness and you have the motivation the willingness to go on. So it's very interesting because uh like I will tell you um before I I answer this there is a interesting one that um
17:11 um we talk about often and and that is when somebody doesn't somebody meaning not a dog trainer just a pet owner when they have those ingredients and they're trying to teach something it is amazing to watch. I um I was one maybe a year ago or so. I was overseas uh working with some clients there and they had trainers that are working with their dogs. They're kind of well off people and and just for because I let let me back up something here. I I always believe
17:58 like like I really firmly believe that we have a gift or maybe it's not even a gift. I I don't think it's even something that special if we just become more grounded and reasonable. I think humans have a ways of connecting and communicating with dogs what we want. Maybe there is many sharper sharp edges. Maybe things need to be ironed out. But it's interesting to watch when somebody is not a trainer, but there is those ingredients and their mistakes that are happening. So, for example, I'm like, "Okay, can you guys teach the dog to go on a
18:45 well, what you would typically like in dog training lingo would you say teach him to go to a place, right?" And and I don't tell them what to do or how to do. And they're doing all sorts of crazy stuff. I mean, crazy stuff that I I just I'm like, "Okay, I I have to jump in." I mean, I just have to like like you know how difficult it is when you're a dog trainer and you see just things that in your head do not make sense whatsoever. But I'm like, "No, but I created this scenario, this setup. Let's play it out." And
19:33 so for example, just to just to give you some ideas of what they were doing to teach a place, they would put the dog over there on a sit. They will come in front of the whatever that basket or dog bed and make a recall. So the dog basically comes on the top. And I'm like, "Okay guys, but this is very cool, but what do you do next?" Cuz remember what I want is you're going to stay here and you will send him there. I just can't help myself. I'm thinking this is not going to work. Well, in three days, three people and three dogs, they all made it to the end.
20:19 Was there struggle? For sure. I have a three days of video that I I have so much video footage that I don't know when I'm going to put things together. But uh at least for my school I I kind of try to put some snippets of important stuff. But my point is uh I think you and and probably the listeners already getting my point that when we have the rapport, the truth, the motivation, the corporation, we can screw up. We don't know what to do. And guess what? The dog also knows. Dude, you have no idea what you're trying to make me do, but I'm going along with you because I trust you and because
21:06 it's a puzzle and let's let's go. So, it's very cool in this way. Now, let me see how I bring that all the way back to your question. Um, excuse me. I think uh um you know communication markers signals basically whatever you want to call it like I call it for a very specific reason signals instead of markers but that's a very different topic but basically when we're talking about feedback because that's kind of what it is ultimately Um,
21:54 when I first start to teach, if it's a dog, whatever kind of dog it will be, but if I if I start teaching a dog, I will be very very rigid as far as, well, that's your approval, that's your disapproval, that's your release, that's your uh punishment, and and so on and so And that's your okay are you ready? what whatever like as many cues as you want to do or as little as you need to eventually though something that I very firmly believe in communication
22:41 it's a what what what is communication what what kind of feedback we give to each other it's it's a language like like it or not but we are talking to each other or at least I'm talking to the dog but the dog understands what I'm talking about, right? And there was a time when I would do some workshop or seminar and and everybody is watching me and it's silent. It's you didn't say good or you didn't release it or you didn't. And I'm like, no, I didn't. But didn't I? Cuz I know I did. My dog knows what I
23:27 did, but nobody else does. Why? Because I believe that there is a certain place where language actually expands. Think of uh um again, I mean, I come from Eastern Europe, from Bulgaria. I lived in Belgium. I lived like I I've been married to a German woman, Polish right now. Like I know I know how languages work. Imagine a a lesson of hello, my name is Ivan, I am 20 years old and da da what's your name? Hello, nice to meet you. You know, this is the basic language uh
24:12 model to learn. At least it was back then. But once you get that, you can stay there or you can accept the fact that you know each other and you like you can say free or okay or or or whatever you want because we know each other at this point. I mean, think about it. How many ways somebody can call their dog to come if the dog is paying attention to them, right? >> Plenty of ways. Yeah. Multiple ways, >> right? So um uh I think that
24:59 I I don't want to you know take away the importance of the beginning of having structured cues but there is a place and time that I think this can evolve and we don't need to be so rigid. Um when some sometimes when I watch trainers and it's like man you you didn't it's like he didn't have to I mean he can just swing you know like the I mean not to go again off the rails here but the clever hands the horse that did mathematics you know I mean nobody can pick up on how the trick was working because it was so subtle.
25:45 Mhm. I know what you're talking about. >> Right. The the the owner of the horse would be behind and would tell him how many times to stop and when to stop and so on. So language I think it's important for us to to kind of open our minds and understand that it's super super important to start somewhere but eventually we can take it further. We don't have to stay there. Now in let's see how I go back to your question. In in your question basically what what you're saying is the person doesn't have that fundamental understanding of how feedback are given
26:33 and does the dog understands the feedback. Right. >> Right. Like they're sending mixed signals. So, if you were watching the human train, you would be thinking to yourself, well, I don't even know what the words mean, what you're saying, because none of them are consistent with predicting something that the dog can learn and pick up on. And that what I was saying to to build on the name of your school was it creates conflict. And the conflict may not even be the conflict from the dog. It could be the conflict of the frustration of the owner not getting the results that they think they should be getting because they're putting in the time. But there's mixed signals. And I do want to say one other thing too that came up while you were talking is the evolution of a dog trainer. If we think about a dog trainer
27:20 who's just starting out, when we learn, especially if we're learning online, a lot of the information in order for it to be effective, I think needs to be very black and white for someone new. But as they evolve, then they start to see the gray areas and how they can adjust. And an example that I thought of while you were telling me your story where you're doing the seminar and someone said you didn't say uh yes or you didn't reward or mark or something like that. Well, in the beginning we say okay when the dog does a behavior you want to mark it with the condition reinforcer that predicts the reward event. The dog repeats the behavior that predicts the marker. But >> right, if we're using a marker and we think about the reasons why we use it,
28:05 okay, to bridge the gap between the behavior and consequence to pinpoint fine details in training to release and reward simultaneously. But if the dog's looking at me and as you said, there's a strong rapport, there's trust, there's healthy motivation, there's focus, and you don't mark a behavior, but you move to get a reward or you move to grab the toy or as you said, you give the dog a wink. They pick up on these signals and you're still teaching the dog incredibly effective, but you're not doing it this exact black and white way because you know it at a much deeper level than someone who's just starting out. Whereas someone who's brand new, they're like every behavior, mark and reward, mark and reward, mark and reward. It's like, well, we don't have to mark every time. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. And I'm sure there's plenty of other
28:51 examples that could build on that, but I think that's what happens with someone early on. And as we continue to evolve, because I still consider myself evolving. I've only been doing this for about 13 years, and I'm constantly learning new things. And I'll pick up something I'm like, I can't believe for the past 13 years I've been doing that in a way that's less effective had I known that prior, but maybe I wasn't ready for the information. And it came to me when I was ready for it perhaps. No, that that's again also very true thing and that goes for it should go for everybody including somebody like me that's I don't know how how whatever the accomplishments and whatever you know I mean like there is
29:38 no yeah like like of course we have to continue on there is always something more like really there is always something more I mean I'm off onto some crazy trips right now in my head and and Maybe if we have time we go into that later. But um um you know the reason I brought those trainers I mean not trainers the the people that I was trying to teach him to go to place sometimes for a teacher teacher is a very I mean we know like like I I you have like you go back in your to your childhood. Anybody goes back into their childhood, there is a classes that
30:25 you like to go to and there are classes that you did not. And they don't necessarily have to be where your talents were. It just about how captivating the teacher was. But what does it mean to be captivating? He had rapport. He built trust. He created motivation. He created cooperation. He created conversation. He intrigued you. even it was something that you didn't care about and there was conflict resolution still there was pain so so to to to say something interesting for for everybody that is teaching pet owners sometimes it's uh um
31:14 it's very cool to allow them to struggle within some limits, right? >> Because sometimes specifically when both parties recognize that they're trying to get something out of that situation of that puzzle, but the dog doesn't get it and the teacher is not capable. But there is the struggle that I call and some really beautiful things come out of that. Um and often
31:59 the dog trainer wants to have that rigid. It's like no no this is exactly the moment that you missed already that you just should have said good boy or you should have ticked or should have you should have something right. I suggest the trainers become a little more patient and observant and see how things roll because there is always a time for the trainer to give very constructive feedback when they really need it. But make sure that they really need it because sometimes one struggle leads to
32:47 finding a way ultimately how to for us to communicate in in the long run. But as you said, there has to be some limits. It cannot go off the rails. And for that reason, yes, we need to start with some structure. There is it is the easiest way. And when a client comes and nothing is seems to be happening, we need to come back to a place where we a trainer would consider okay this is a good start. This is a good place to
33:33 start. But that place is always in my opinion the place where you have to somehow very quickly make them successful. So whatever tax task we pick, we have to make them click if you want to think that way. And now they have motivation, both of them, the dog and the owner, right? Um, but yeah, I I almost lost the whole question that you have because it's such an interesting topic in my head. >> Um, >> well, it sounds like when you're talking about teaching students of yours how to effectively teach and work with their
34:19 clients and knowing when to jump in and help and knowing when to wait to let them figure it out. And something else you said a few times which resonates quite a bit with me because it's something that I often teach. The first thing that I do with each dog that I work with and this is the same thing I tell my students is the very first thing is we need to build a relationship. So you're talking about rapport and trust. How can someone build rapport and trust with their dog? And for someone who is a professional trainer, I think one of the pitfalls that many of us fall into when we're doing stay in trains and we're trying to get very quick results, we have 10 dogs and stay in train, they're going to be there or doggy boot camp, people call it different things in kennel training
35:05 >> and we only have three weeks or maybe a month to work with the dog. And I've seen many trainers, including myself, make the mistake of rushing into the training because I'm trying to get those results in that short amount of time, but I haven't even built a relationship with the dog yet. >> And lacking or not building the relationship, especially if the dog has maybe fear issues or resourceuarding issues, some form of aggression that we're working with. jumping into it too soon created more conflict and ended up taking longer to work through it because we rushed that stage of building the relationship. Based on your experience, training students that you've worked with, what are some of the best ways that someone can build a relationship effectively,
35:50 not just with their own dog, build that rapport, but with their client's dogs? >> Yeah. Uh I mean this all really really good uh uh input that you have. Uh you know I I always kind of seem to take things out of context but hopefully it comes back and really start to make sense. >> Um >> well I have ADD so I bounce all over the place in my head. So what one of the problems with societies today is is just you know those are I mean it's hard even for us at this point
36:37 with with chasing social media and trying to stay up to date with the latest AI update and and you're just about to get it and I mean I mean the face we are living in it's insane and our brains and our evolutionary uh um our genetic makeup is not really prepared for this. Now the dogs putting this I I think it's even harder for them. And I think we all agree that almost the the vast majority of what we would call problems are a result of a dog being living living in a city and and not
37:25 living a dog life. Um when we have a um when when we somehow if you if we're able to stop and and just ground ourselves. I know it's kind of newagy like I'm talking here but but it's not like you know just getting out of walking and training in the city going around the block or in the dog park or whatever. If I just take the dog for 2 hours on a hike off somewhere in
38:14 nature and you do that for a week every day and you basically will kick into some very natural primitive instincts of uh what I would call us versus them. So like let's say even if you have a dog that it's not trusting you or it's high or it's aggressive both of dogs and humans we we are social and we are you know we have back mentality. So even when two don't like each other,
38:59 there are very easy ways to convince to like each other and to basically team up. And to team up, you need to team up against something else. And it's a it's a very interesting and and um you know like like you take a dog on a walk, they don't want to stay close to you. Of course, you don't force them to stay close. They stay whatever that distance is that's like okay dude you're cool there I'm cool here we pretend we we're just walking but we are not together even but then I don't know something in distance some some branch fells down or some bird flies out or something makes attraction and the go the dog goes
39:48 and I go and what just happened we just teamed up against something else. Stuff like that is very very cool to build rapport, trust, motivation, cooperation because you need to to kind of that there is many different ways. Of course, one way is to say, "No, you're going to heal and or I'm going to just throw treats this way and this way and you're going to be I'm not going to pretend that I'm not there, but you will pretend that I'm not here." And it seems like, you know, the the different scenarios. Um but there is a a true
40:33 very genuine ways using evolutionary psychology and and instincts uh to create this. This is like the there is so so much studies and so many things and um but this is the first place where you want to start. if you uh in my opinion if anybody wants to build um relationship or or whatever we want to call it as I said um that there feeding a dog to me it's not and that's going to be extremely controversial and I stand by what I say feeding a dog no matter if you feed them
41:20 from a dish or you feed him as he's working or whatever it is but feeding is not what builds rapport, trust, motivation and cooperation. I I give everybody something to think about because I know some a lot of people uh understand or or should I say they know that I am not the biggest fan and proponent of uh training with food. uh which is not quite the truth. Uh food can have place in training. So let's think of when we compare food versus
42:05 play. And let's think of something very more more of a structural kind of not necessarily an aggression problem because that goes to a a very different conversation. We need to we need to really dissect a lot of different things before we ever start to write the prescription there. But what happens when you have a young puppy and you start training with food? And and what I mean by you, I I don't mean you. I'm I'm just talking universally. We eliminate the um the initial struggle, if you want to call it that way. And basically, um,
42:50 of course I'm exaggerating, but anyone, even even people that don't have the skills, can get a dog with no training to do handful of different behaviors instantly by luring with a treat, right? Does it work? Of course, it works. At least to some extent in my opinion. But at at that stage the beginning we can at least I hope we can agree that the dog doesn't have any idea what it's really doing besides
43:39 being mesmerized and chasing the food lure. Yeah. So from the person from a side that puppy is doing a sit a stand uh attention healing and so on. But when we flip it around from in the dog's world um the puppy will say yeah I'm ch I'm chasing their lure that's all I'm doing. So I I could argue I could say could create performance but not understanding or not yet. It just it's it's on a surface level very quick. >> I compare it to somebody driving with
44:27 their GPS. If they pull up their Google Maps, they move to a new town, they plug in their new work location, let's say it's 15 minutes away, and they just follow that GPS every day, it could take them a month or two to learn how to get from their house to the workplace because what are they doing when they're driving? They're listening to a podcast. They're listening to music. They're on a phone call. Perhaps they're not paying. Oh, there's my turn. Oh, there's my turn. But if we go back before we had the GPS, even before TomTom, what did you have to do? You had to go on the map, find where it was, plan it out, remember the streets, remember the location, and then you really had to pay attention while you drove. And in a matter of a day or two, you already knew
45:12 how to get from point A to point B. And in my training experience, because I've done >> and that is a struggle. Sorry to interrupt, but but if you have to drive without the GPS, you're going to make a wrong turn. You're going to you're going to be like, "Oh, I could have Oh, I Oh, right. But there is a value to that. Go on." >> And so, you'll end up learning how to get from point A to point B, but it will take significantly longer. Now, I compare um as I said that to luring and then if we're training, let's say we're doing escape training. We're using some kind of pressure like leash pressure. So, I
45:58 can tell the dog down and then I use leash pressure to queue the dog into the down position and then if I want enter the dog into a reward event or release the dog, that dog will tend to learn faster than the dog that I used purely reward based and I'm luring in each position. And then the dog that even learns faster is the dog that is learning through avoidance training where I tell the dog sit and I correct them into the sit position or down and I correct the dog into the down position because for that dog there's way more pressure and consequences for them being wrong. So they learn much faster. And that was a lot of the foundational training that I learned when I first started. And one of the issues that I had with it though is when someone brand
46:45 new, and there might be times where that sort of training could be useful depending on the circumstances, but for someone brand new where they don't really have good timing, they're not great at delivering the reward to increase the dog's motivation. They're not really that good at reading the dog's body language. And what they end up doing, they end up overshadowing the command with the correction. The dog's not able to avoid the correction. So now they're getting corrected constantly and that still takes them a long time because the inadequacy of the trainer. But if we look at it and we say here's a trainer that does this perfect escape training. Here's a trainer that does avoidance perfect. So we'll say leash pressure or correction type training. And here's a training that does luring perfectly. I think the one that does the
47:34 uh avoidance training is going to teach the dog fastest. But which one is most invested? Which one is most motivated by the training? Which one enjoys it more? >> That's uh I I I like where your head is and I like what where your challenges as far as dog training are and it's very very cool to to actually have that conversation with you. >> I appreciate that. I'm going to I I'll trust me I'm getting to this but let me finish this uh uh the the lure comparing to to other option first and we are getting to avoidance if you want or whatever with scope I I'll get there for sure but uh so so we said like food creates performance but not quite
48:19 understanding at least not when we are in the fundamental beginner stages acquisition stages the acquisition stages with food are typically the the priority is you chase their lure and it's going to look like you're doing a tons of cool things that three-year-old dogs cannot do. Uh depending on how good you are with the Lord, but even if you're not that good, you still will get the results. There is no doubt in my mind. My my core point is that luring inserts food and this is again it's going to
49:06 challenge and I think it's interesting and it's good for us to challenge each other's ideas. Luring inserts food into situations where food does not necessarily belong. It distracts from the from the real interaction like like bringing bringing someone to do what they would never naturally do for food. Like let's say we're playing basketball and I don't know, my friend just runs and just shoves a slice of pizza in your hand because you you you scored. It's
49:52 like dudes get the out. Um exaggeration, but why play mothers more for me? Like remember I I I I just said that with food we eliminate the initial struggle. Well I love the initial struggle. I I love all struggles but I love the initial struggles. Um dogs dogs in in uh you know like um I mean I I have said few times places but I I
50:37 should say it again like I where I grew up as a kid. Um it wasn't the best neighborhood. I was living, you know, I would go to school, but basically I'm out on the streets and instead of doing what other kids do, I hang out with the dogs. I knew all the dogs in the neighborhood. Um, I knew like intuitively I knew the the dynamics because they're very easy when you when you start to uh uh stay away from what the textbook and what Skinner and whomever like like this is very easy to understand. Okay. Yeah, that boy trying to flirt with that
51:22 female and this one is a punk and he needs to be put in play and so on and so on. I I I know the dog's language is what I'm trying to say. Uh I lived in in Africa at some point. I I was you know I mean I was so crazy that I would just go into a den like let's say 10 ft tunnel where the mom has the puppies and I have no idea if she's there or not and I'm going to see the puppies, you know. But the point I want to make is that I I believe that every natural interaction between dogs, it's either negative reinforcement or punishment. It's a combination. It
52:08 that's the interaction they have. There is pressure, release, conflict, and resolution. That's that's their generic genetic uh uh programming. So, uh um saving, you know, play for later when the dog already knows uh, um, you know, the luring behaviors. It doesn't necessarily make sense to me. Um, that's the that's what I think it's the real world. Food can never tap into that kind of stuff. And
52:54 As I said that conflict and resolution this the name of the game and when we talk about I I hope I I will have an opportunity to get further to talk about games and stuff uh because it will tie to this but uh um what what is the what is the reality of luring it's using food using a food lure is basically saying I don't know if I should even say it but it's basically really saying I cannot communicate in any other way what I want you to do so I have no choice but I'm going to guide you with food
53:39 because it's a quick instant it it appears there is no struggle and as I said I like the struggle Why I like the struggle? Because if I have the struggle, I this is my best opportunity to build rapport, trust, motivation and cooperation. how I come out of this struggle, how patient I am to teach what I want, how uh uh I'm able to say what I don't want without making the dog shut down or be universally suppressed, but actually understands that this is there is a rule in the game and the rules, you know,
54:27 just like in any game, you break the rules. There's some consequences to that. But uh um there is another thing about like okay we're teaching the hill, right? Everybody does, right? I I mean I've done it sometimes just because five week I mean five sorry like let's say 8 week old puppy or I don't know what the youngest is on YouTube but there's some really young puppies that are doing healing chasing food to me does not make much sense but what it really doesn't make much sense is that
55:13 there is a dogs that do this healing forever and ever and ever and there is a very structured and and again I I'm very keen on all different ways of learning because they're all interesting even when I don't agree with them I make sure that I understand them so I have uh um so I can talk about it you know like it's very different when you don't understand something and you're Oh yeah, electric colors are bad. It's like, dude, you you've never you have no idea what electric does or why or or anything. So if we are teaching
55:59 a dog to heal, what are we doing by the luring? We're creating the so-called muscle memory. And what is the muscle memory? Head up or head up, whichever your preference is. some prancing and staying right next to me because that's where the food comes. And then there is I mean there are quite a few different variations of how we start to reduce the food and how we win from the food and we be where it becomes an actual competition healing if you want. Now,
56:46 probably it's better that I stop here and I take you back to what happens if you don't do that. Well, dogs like like every other at least mama like to look at your eyes. because you can get some information about what's up through making eye contact. This is very fundamentally important. This is building this is baked in our DNA so much that um once the dog science
57:32 you know they they finally realize that they can make a lot of money because there is billions of dogs and and it does make sense to pay attention because nobody wants to give grants and pay attention to research of I don't know geese or or something. dogs are far more interesting. So early 2000s they did some studies that are studies which basically will tell you the obvious and uh anybody that wants to see any of them they're they're out on YouTube on on you know you can find them very easy um we can put links if you want but they're they're easy to find. So, one experiment that they it was very cool to
58:19 do, they put three people in chairs next to each other. One has a blindfold, one has a bucket on their head, and one has normal face, eyes open. Everybody has a treat in their fist. They let the dog in and they wanted to see who the dogs going to stop to pester and convince him that he should get food. Clear answer is the person that they could connect with. It's like dude, you
59:04 have food. Give me the food. This one I cannot convince him. He is not here. Right. that makes I don't think there is a even a need for that study but okay so there is a study they did another very cool experiment not the same people I don't think but they had a the owner of a dog sitting again on a chair the dog is over there and there is a plate and something irresistible whatever the treat or food the dog likes and the dog is on a not supposed to take it. So, the owner is staring at the dog and paying attention and the dog is of
59:51 course not taking the food. Then the experiment goes further. The owner closes his eyes and the dough is waiting and he's waiting and guess what? He takes the food. Why? Because eyes matter and there there is nothing to teach about eye contact. It's there. All you need to do is just acknowledge it and encourage it. And it can happen in one session. I do it in one session. every single time I have to demonstrate this. But I don't think I I hope that what I'm saying it it's so
1:00:41 easy to understand that when we say, well, I'm doing this for the next year. I'm starting when the puppy is three months old and yeah, my back is hurting and everything and my hands are bleeding, but I'm feeling these things and the jackpots and I'm doing all this, but the dog doesn't even understand why. It's a different like the the whole concept and the the dynamics are very different. Um, now I can take this to playing and and how play
1:01:27 to me is so much more important than food luring a young puppy. While everybody is luring and doing positions and healing, I am trying to convince my dog to bring the ball or to let go of the ball or to chase the ball or to bite the tug but not bite my fingers and to do it for much longer than they again and what happens it's quite logical and it's quite
1:02:13 interesting there is a struggle so to make it's very different to say hey I have this one ball and I'm going to throw it and this is the agreement that we're going to have you're going to go and get it and you're going to bring it back and I'm going to throw it again. So, we need that report, communication, trust. Um, and it's going to be a struggle. And it's going to be a big struggle cuz why would the dog just go get the ball and bring it back? I've been breeding dogs since 1989. I also was um yeah, it's probably one of
1:03:00 the oldest Malino kennels on planet Earth that still is is uh as strong as as when we did. I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind. They had their own breeding program of shepherds and Labradors in in San Rafale in California. So I I genuinely was very interested in in genetics and breeding and selection and so on. And so play kind of came very naturally as because any mammals are very playful at least when they're young. As they get older some lose that playfulness. the the best part I think and and this is my
1:03:48 kind of ultimate argument about the the theory of how humans and dogs or wolves, you know, how how did it all happen way back then? And you know, they were scavengers and so on and they were hanging out and but I also think that maybe maybe there was this one kid that also was throwing a bong and the wolf or the whatever we want to call it and it was bringing it back and they came to that agreement because it's really uh it's very special that dogs and humans don't lose the
1:04:35 playfulness until they die unless there is some pathological development or later trauma or whatever. But most other uh uh species they they kind of they're very playful in in when they're young and it kind of loses its thing. So again I I I just wanted to make uh to emphasize that play is is such a it's so baked in us and in the dogs but there is a struggle but when you come out of that struggle what do you have? You have cooperation. you're able to explain
1:05:20 what an objective of a certain task is what we're doing. It's kind of like me teaching you how let Nate let's go play basketball. Well, here are the rules. You cannot hold and run like in football. You have to score. You have the three steps rule and so on and so on. Now the difference is that humans can instruct each other. Dogs cannot. Like we dogs we cannot. I cannot tell a dog well if you don't do that or if you do it comes from experience. is very important when you go to that struggle to teach a
1:06:06 dog to play a game because there is what I call there just recreational just activity that you're kind of playing but there is no objective there is no goal into that play and there is games have objective and the moment there is objective we need to have rules and the moment we have rules We always try to bend the rules and see what happens. So the puppy that I'm going to work with, I am tapping into. Okay, these are the objectives of the game. These are the consequences of breaking the rules. This is the enjoyment of playing the game. Um
1:06:54 I mean I mean I can go on and on as far as what gets built in just as much as uh I you know for at at that age I am also building endurance and what I mean by endurance I'm not just talking about physical endurance but physical endurance and mental endurance they tie each other they go along together. you I know you sometimes mention jiujitsu and stuff like if if mental or physical endurance lacks fat things coming and everything goes downhill regardless of play teaches or builds
1:07:41 focus and that focus is to stay basically to keep your attention attention on the same task for a long time and at the same time of course build the physical endurance. But just the idea that you can work on that little guy that they can stay focused on the same task for long period of time and enjoy it and not burned out. what does that translates to? So, if I see a dog in any workshop or any lesson that I'm going to have if when it comes down to competition stuff,
1:08:28 I'm like, just go and play. I don't need to see your heel. I don't need I don't need to see nothing else. Just show me how many times he's going to bring the ball. Well, if he brings the ball 20 times, what what am I expecting that he's going to do for that ball? How strong of a motivator that is to convince him to do all sorts of behaviors and amazing performances. Um um we have another super important thing about play
1:09:17 that food will never do. And this is I don't even know how to go with this cuz this is crazy uh uh interesting but it just goes deep play and not play the games cuz again I I really want to disting make difference between play is a very it's kind of like you and me playing basketball but we're just bouncing the ball and eventually we're like okay it's cool versus no I'm going to kick your ass and we're going to make some rules and we're going to have a game and we're going to see who's better and we're going to and you're not going to break the rules and if I break the rules that so on right so in in a way I see the this kind of
1:10:04 interaction as the master key but in in also on a whole different level because games change your energy the dogs become active. It's engaged. It's aroused in a in a controlled way. But the the I'm like, you know, you don't play like this basketball. You don't do, you know, like when you are in a game and you think you're good in the game, you are all in, right? So, it changes your energy.
1:10:50 And when your energy changes, what happens is it changes your physiology. And what does it mean when your physiology changes? Like like what what happens? Well, your heart rate goes a little higher. Your breathing gets different. Your hor hormones get activated. your like total nervous system shifts. So when energy changes, physiology, physiology changes
1:11:35 emotion. And this is really really special and it's there is so much science on this but there is also so much hands-on experience on this. So let me say again game will change energy energy will change physiology physiology will change emotions and and what that means is you know you you will feel different. So you have the I I don't want to go crazy with brain chemicals and body chemicals of what happens but but again you have the
1:12:22 the dopamine the norepinephrine and um you know they they spark that initial energy and arousal. Then you have the uh epinephrine and cortisol that kind of you know translate the energy in in that physical redness of you know your body is like okay this is the game. Um then you get of course back to the dopamine and serotonin and oxyonin and just it's just a explosion of good chemicals in your brain because of energy changing physiology and physiology
1:13:08 changing emotion. Like when you think about your brain, it's this little black box that doesn't necessarily see or feel or do anything. It just gets data from your inputs from the outside and the inside. And we always think that >> man, I'm going crazy here. >> This is great. I I enjoy I'm enjoying this conversation on play because play is a really big part of what I do as well. I do want to talk a little bit more about the luring and if there are any pitfalls that come from doing luring in the early stages as opposed to doing more play because when I get a brand new puppy I do both. I do the luring and I do lots of play. But I also notice with
1:13:56 puppies dependent on their play style I have to adjust quite a bit to get what I want. And an example is the German Shepherd that I'm training Maverick. Really nice German Shepherd. When I had him as a puppy, he had a tendency to want the toy, but to possess it. So, he would grab the toy and then he would want to run to his little bed and lay on it. I got the toy, I won. But, of course, I wanted him to come back and engage with me. So, first thing I tried was to once he took the toy, I ran away from him. I hid behind the couch and I'm looking at him. I'm trying to make it a game to where he wants to come back and he would. But then if he came back and I wanted to go for the toy, he might turn his head because he's coming back. He wants to engage because I'm moving away, but he doesn't want me to grab or take the toy. But because he was more
1:14:43 possessive, if I did get a hold of the toy, he would hold on to it. But then I also was considering if I make the play too difficult, then he really won't want to come back to me. And so I tried different techniques to get him to bring the toy back. And what I ended up doing that worked really well was I pretended like I didn't want him to make me grab the toy. So the game that I played was if he makes if he comes within distance, I have to grab the toy. And when I grab the toy, he has ultimate power over me. So wherever he moved his head, I act like I could not resist. And I'm like, whoa. And I'm flying this way and I'm flying that way. And he was really able
1:15:28 to manipulate me. And then I would let go and I'd run away like, "Oh, don't corner me. Don't get me with the toy." And he'd corner me and I'd grab it again and he'd do the same thing. And I built him up through using that motivation where he's thinking, "I'm throwing you all over this place." And then I started to show him that I really wanted him to push into the bite. But I'm wondering if there's a certain approach that you have for different play styles or is it really teaching, okay, you have to make adjustments according to the dog that you're working with and you have to not be afraid to try to make adjustments. And I don't know if that's the best way to do it. There may be better, but I ended up getting the results and we had fun doing it. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, super. That's that's a again a a good input here.
1:16:16 >> But it could cause shaking, right? I mean, >> no, let let me let me let me just stay on what you said because it's it's brilliant really. Um, typically when we do play or try to make a game out of it as a trainer, we are very impatient. And this is typically when the second ball comes or or whatever. We we're very creative to avoid the struggle. Whatever it is, we're very creative to avoid the struggle. However, humans have that ability, that gift
1:17:02 that there is a we cannot say there is a infinite number. There is like we can keep coming up with different games without an end. We can constantly create new games with anything like literally with anything. And this is what I'm trying to say that it's so like it's so much instinctual. It's like a you know until pans skip and and them you know in I don't know 2000s finally brought attention to play
1:17:48 tickling the rats and all this stuff. Nobody thought that play is actually a primary reinforcer, which it is. It's just as important primary reinforcer as food or or sex or sleep or whatever. You know, like you you still when I when I see somebody trying to play and rewarding the dog that because they bring the toy with food or the steel world trainer. Um, and anyway, it's a it's really it's kind of killing the special gift of play by trying to you you diminish the importance of it. Um,
1:18:34 because we have this unlimited way of coming up with different games. That's what you just did. you were patient enough to say, I'm gonna take my time and I will get that dog to play and we're going to come up. Maybe it's not the game I want, but it's going to be a start. And once you have a start, then there's going to be a struggle. But once you go through the struggle and you come out on the other side, you again have cooperation, you have
1:19:20 the focus, staying on a for a long time on a task, you the uh your dog and you understand rules and consequences. Um, you already have whatever markers or signals again, whatever your feedback system is in place that actually does make sense that it's not just uh um, you know, giving food food and then you click or you say okay and you free the dog. No, that is actually really like No, you just drop the ball so you can go and stick your nose into that hole, the golfer hole. That's not right now.
1:20:09 And yes, it's 3 months old or whatever the age is. And yes, you don't need to be harsh. This is why we're talking about, you know, when I originally started the conversation about the conflict resolution skills. Of course, you don't blow the puppy's mind because he stuck his head in the golfer hole, but you most definitely can say that this is just out of place when we're doing this. And by the time somebody has a very nice play with a puppy and we compare that puppy with another puppy that knows now sit down and heal and stand. In the in the big scope of things as far
1:20:56 as the understanding and the way we interact, the difference is immense. Um then then teaching sit or hill they're very easy as I said um you know and on top of that as I said you you are working in the right emotional state and to have that emotional state it's not about what people think So training, you know, we're emotions matter and and we say that um oh I was my voice inflection and
1:21:45 I'm very jumpy and very happy when I have to be or I'm very firm when I you know that's that's the the outside world that doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter what what we need to focus on is internally. This is where emotions really get to cook. You you are hungry or you have bad stomach or your kidneys out of whack or you didn't sleep for a long time or you had a really bad argument with your spouse and you go out to have fun.
1:22:31 Well, guess what? Everybody that sees you will be like, "Dude, go home. Just like or or just get drunk right away because you're definitely not like and and they they're really interesting study. I mean this like neuroplasticity and and uh uh the the whole neuroscience is so advanced and it's so interesting to where even I mean there are studies that I don't know how they even make this stuff but let's say somebody goes to court for some case and it's 9:00 a.m. for the same whatever. Let's say a traffic ticket and somebody goes at
1:23:20 11:30 and somebody goes at 200 p.m. The judge is very very likely to be much harsher with the person at 11:30 simply because he is hungry or she is hungry and the brain says we need some energy. And where do we get the energy? Do we take it from here and use it here and then compensate here and then tomorrow how do we make up and basically there is a big conflict internal conflict that that black box now has to deal with and
1:24:07 it's a priority that guy that's sitting there that had a ticket is not a priority. Um that there is again it's very very interesting because you can have a a face of a neutral person and depending how you feel internally. You can say that guy's angry or that guy's happy or that guy's sad. It's the same face but it's you know the saying it's actually has a lot of merit. I have a gut feeling. This not a this is not maybe maybe it was but but it's really not a joke. So uh um play taps into these things.
1:24:55 It's kind of the bridge that shifts the dog's energy and and everything changes and basically in in a different state you get different results if you want to think of it that way. Um you you have a one it's very easy especially today I mean it's super easy to teach a dog to do sit or down or come or hill it's much more interesting what kind of emotions gets attached to the behavior
1:25:42 and you touch those emotions not by who you are and how you act. Of course, that has some effect, but this is not the effect that you want that you think it's critical. Like, it's far more important that that dog had a good sleep or had a good food. it doesn't have a bloody diarrhea or allergy skin when you're trying to teach him something. Why? Because that's a a big internal conflict. And that brain is really struggling with how I'm going to balance this checkbooks here. I'm going to make this work. And I have a problem. And guess
1:26:28 what? What I'm doing at the moment, it becomes the problem. Um, yeah. I don't know. >> It makes me think of this book that I read not too long ago because I I find this stuff very fascinating as well as far as how the brain works, how we process information, and kind of funny. The book is titled Remember. I don't remember the author though, >> but it's a really good book. And she breaks down how we learn, how we forget things, why we forget things. And she also talks about when people start getting a little older, they may forget something, and then they think it's related to possible dementia, but they could have the same issue happen when
1:27:14 they're younger, but because they're younger, they don't consider it something that could be a medical issue. And something and there's things in this book that I was able to relate back to dog training. And one of them was as far as the human mind goes, learning and retaining information. We have to have a sense of belonging. We have to have a sense of control. There's certain things that we need in order to effectively learn and retain information. And we have what she talks about in the book, working memory. So the working memory is we're getting information right away. But if we don't take that information and plug it into the I believe hippocampus, then we'll forget it. So we have to intentionally remember. And then
1:28:00 a big part of dog training is overshadowing. At least I think it's a big part of dog training because it's one of the most common mistakes. I preach about it all the time and I still make that mistake because it's very natural for our physical movement to pair up with our verbal. And then I tell someone, let's say they're working on a command or perhaps a marker. They're trying to get the dog classically conditioned to a marker, charging the marker, engagement training, loading the marker, whatever. So they say the marker and they give the treat to the dog at the exact same time. And I tell them, well, if you're saying yes as you're handing it to the dog, the dog is focused on the food. It's not like the dog doesn't hear yes. It's just not relevant. It's the same thing if I'm having a conversation with somebody and I take my phone out of my pocket and I
1:28:46 set it down, but I'm focused on this conversation and we start walking around and we're chatting. Maybe it's at someone's house or a party and then I look in my pockets. I'm like, where the heck did I put my phone? Well, it's not that I'm losing my memory. It's just that I wasn't paying attention to it when I set it down. And she also talks about when we learn things through humor or we learn things through play, we tend to retain it more. And I'm not sure if this was in the book, but I do remember a study about a cat chasing a ball of yarn. >> And the author, or maybe it was a video, again, I don't remember where this came from, but it made a lot of sense to me, which was uh the person was like, "Do you think the cat was chasing the ball of yarn because they're chasing the ball
1:29:32 of yarn?" No, that's training for when it's chasing the mouse. And I always looked at play in that sort of format.
…
