0:00 ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. [MUSIC PLAYING] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is David Goggins. David Goggins is a retired Navy SEAL who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He's also a highly accomplished ultramarathon runner. For those of you that don't know, ultramarathons are distances longer than 26 miles and, in David's case, often longer than 200 miles. For his achievements in athletics, he has been inducted into the International Sports Hall of Fame. He also held a Guinness World Record for the most pull-ups completed in 24 hours. I should mention that not only was David a decorated Navy
0:46 SEAL, but he also graduated from Army Ranger School. David is also a highly successful writer, having authored two books, the first entitled "Can't Hurt Me" and the second entitled "Never Finished," both of which are best sellers. David's books cover many topics, including his autobiographical description of what can only be described as an incredibly challenging child and young adulthood. His home was abusive. His school environment was abusive. He essentially had no positive resources directed his way and. In his 20s, he found himself to be obese, that is, more than 300 pounds working a job he despised for minimal pay. And it was at that point that David began an inner dialogue that forced him to explore the demons born out
1:32 of his childhood but also the position that he found himself in as a young man and then began the journey to navigate that dialogue and transform himself into the Navy SEAL, the ultramarathon runner, the bestselling author, and the extraordinarily positive and influential man that he is today. As some of you may know, David has done various public lectures. He's a familiar face online because there are so many clips of him on YouTube. And he has done podcasts before. However, I'm certain that you'll find today's discussion to be very different than previous podcasts that David has been featured on. The reason is that-- of course, we get into his accomplishments. We talk about the mindset that allowed him to achieve those things. But, today, David really lets us under the hood. He lets us into the form of inner dialogue
2:21 that he has to embrace, indeed that he has to grapple with on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times throughout the day and night in order to impose the sort of self-discipline that he is so well known for. We also get into some of the scientific mechanisms underlying willpower. And we talk about David's current endeavors that include, for instance, his own exploration of science and medicine for which he has become an intense scholar and practitioner. I should mention that multiple times throughout today's discussion you will hear curse words. Now David and I both acknowledge that cursing isn't for everybody and that cursing itself is different than cursing at somebody. Nonetheless, we do realize that many people, parents perhaps especially, might not want to hear cursing.
3:09 If you don't want to hear cursing, well, then this podcast episode is probably not for you. However, if you are comfortable with cursing or if you can tolerate it, I assure you today's discussion is highly worthwhile. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available. I've spoken before on this podcast and there's general consensus that most people should strive to consume approximately 1 gram of protein
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4:40 you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your first order. Again that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by AeroPress. AeroPress is similar to a French press for making coffee, but it is, in fact, a much better way to make coffee. I first learned about AeroPress well over 10 years ago. And I've been using one ever since. AeroPress was developed by Alan Adler, who was an engineer at Stanford. And I knew of Alan because he had also built the so-called Aerobie Frisbee, which I believe at one time, perhaps still now, held the Guinness Book of World Records for furthest thrown object. And I used to see Alan, believe it or not, at parks around Palo Alto testing out different Aerobie
5:25 Frisbees. So he was sort of famous in our community for developing these different feats of engineering that turned into commercial products. Now I love coffee. I'm somebody that drinks coffee nearly every day, usually about 90 to 120 minutes after I wake up in the morning, although not always. Sometimes if I'm going to exercise, I'll drink coffee first thing in the morning. But I love, love, love coffee. And what I've personally found is that by using the AeroPress, I can make the best possible tasting cup of coffee. I don't know what exactly it is in the AeroPress that allows the same beans to be prepared into a cup of coffee that tastes that much better as compared to any other form of brewing that coffee, even the traditional French press. The AeroPress is extremely easy to use. And it's extremely compact.
6:10 In fact, I take it with me whenever I travel. And I use it on the road, in hotels, even on planes. I'll just ask for some hot water, and I'll brew my coffee or tea right there on the plane. If you'd like to try AeroPress, you can go to aeropress.com/huberman. That's A-E-R-O-P-R-E-S-S dotcom slash Huberman to get 20% off any aeropress coffeemaker. AeroPress ships anywhere in the USA, Canada, and over 60 other countries around the world. Again, that's aeropress.com/huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now a key component of getting a great night's sleep
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7:43 $150 off their Pod 3 mattress cover. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again that's eightsleep.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with David Goggins. David Goggins, welcome. DAVID GOGGINS: My man. Good to see you again, man. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Great to see you. It was late 2016, early 2017, I believe, when you were in my lab at Stanford. DAVID GOGGINS: Yes sir. ANDREW HUBERMAN: We did a little work later that day down in San Jose. And, gosh, see you everywhere, but it's not enough. So great to have you here. DAVID GOGGINS: Thanks for having me on, brother. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. You embody discipline and doing hard things. I think we should just start right off with-- DAVID GOGGINS: Yeah. Let's just go there. ANDREW HUBERMAN: --the bold truth. But right before we went hot mics,
8:31 we were talking about learning. Right now, you're spending some time learning and doing things that I think most people probably don't typically associate David Goggins with. DAVID GOGGINS: Right. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Why don't you tell us about that? DAVID GOGGINS: Well, most people just look at me as the guy that runs and yells as he's running. While I do that to motivate people, but people don't understand that my day is broken up into segments. I work out. I eat. I sleep, but I spend most of my time studying. So like I'm in the medical world. I'm a paramedic in Canada. But I spend a lot of my time trying to nuke every single thing about it because I'm not trying to just be a paramedic, learn about veins, and arteries, and how the heart pumps, and stuff like that.
9:17 I'm trying to learn to the point where I can save someone's life. And even though paramedics are doing that all over the world, I'm trying to be that paramedic that can really dissect exactly what's going on and figure out what medication goes where, just trying to learn the algorithm of what's going on, man. So I spent a lot of time with it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love the word algorithm because when I teach biology or try and learn anything that's related to biology and especially the human body, I need to know the nouns. But it's the verbs that matter. And that's really what you're talking about. Just saying that sits there, that brain part there, doesn't tell you how it all works together. So what does your process for studying look like? If we dropped a camera in the room, brought a microphone into your inner dialogue--
10:06 gosh, wouldn't we all love that. But if we dropped a microphone into your inner dialogue, are you waking up looking at the books and going, yeah, fresh day, let's learn or is some of the same resistance that you've talked about coming up around physical work, is that coming up from time to time? DAVID GOGGINS: You know what, I was nervous at first. I'm going to keep it real. So I'm not a real smart guy. And what I mean by that is I was born with ADD, ADHD. Like my brain cannot retain information. I'm not some genetic freak when it comes to running, when it comes to lifting weights. I am absolutely the bottom of the barrel. And people will never believe me. And they can just whatever. Believe what you want to believe. So when you ask me this question about what does studying look
10:55 like for me, I have to go over the same page over, and over, and over, and over again, while Jennifer can look at that page while she's quizzing me, she'll learn it right then as she's-- she didn't know anything about it. She will quiz herself or quiz me and learn it as she's quizzing me. It's the most frustrating thing in the world how my brain works. So what I do is I literally sit there with a pen and paper. And I have my books. And I go through and have to write everything down every single day. I will study the same page until it's photographic memory from writing the same thing down. And then from there, I'll go back through and relearn it
11:40 again. So I'll learn the bulk of it. But then I'll go through and learn the small things within that. So if it's a medication, I'll learn what the medication does. First, I'll learn how to even say the medication because these medications aren't like albuterol. No, it's very big words. So I'll go through, learn how to say the name. Then I'll go through learn what the dose is. Then I'll go through-- and this is like every single day. So it's not like, oh, I got it. Let's just go through-- no, nothing is I got it. Every single thing-- so I can't wait to get in this conversation because everything I do in life, it sucks. Everything I do in life, it sucks.
12:26 That's why when I was 300 pounds and 24 years old, it wasn't like I had some big epiphany of let's just go be a Navy SEAL, and let's lose some weight. No, I knew my entire life was going to be a struggle, which is why I just ignored it. And I said, I'm not even trying to jump off any of this shit and learn how to read, how to write, how to memorize, how to become something I am not. But through that process, something happened to me. And I realized-- this is why I feel sorry for no one. In this podcast, they're going to really not like me because people are going to think that I am maybe lying or maybe fibbing or exaggerating.
13:14 No, I am literally-- I was the lowest form on Earth, no talent, no ability to learn. And I literally know what it is to be rock bottom and to build that up. So that question about learning is the pain in my ass. And I don't have to do it. Just think about it. I'm 49 years old, and I'm a multi-millionaire. I don't have to do anything. So all I thought about when I was growing up is, man, I can't wait to one day get to the point where I no longer have to do this stuff. But what happened as I got older, it became a way of living. So how I do every day is how I do every day. It's a discipline. It's a regimen. It was a choice I made.
13:59 And the choice I made was what are you willing to sacrifice, and what are you willing to give up to find every bit of who you are as a human being? And I was willing to give up everything to do that. So studying is no joke. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love that you're studying. I recall a few years ago, I heard some interview or podcast with you. And you just threw out like I don't know what I'll do next. Maybe I'll be a scientist. And I went yeah. Because I knew-- because I know you a bit. And I see your work out there, but we had met before, that if you decided that you were going to do it-- and learning medicine, which is what you're doing, learning human physiology is so detailed. DAVID GOGGINS: Very. ANDREW HUBERMAN: And people out there have to understand when you look at a textbook
14:45 and you see the veins and the capillaries different colors, when the body is open, they're not different colors. DAVID GOGGINS: Right, right, right. ANDREW HUBERMAN: So I mean, some things have different color contrasts, but it's not like it's all labeled when you pop it open. DAVID GOGGINS: Exactly. ANDREW HUBERMAN: And so the process of writing things down by hand is important for you. So you go back and read those notes. Do you think about that stuff on your runs too or are you segmenting your day like when you're done studying, are you heading out for a run and thinking about other things? Or are you still rehearsing the material in your head? DAVID GOGGINS: So when I write it down, I write it down, and I'm able to-- I'm actually looking down at this table right now because I'm back to writing. So I'm actually there right now as I'm speaking to you. I write it down in a way that I'm memorizing page 69.
15:32 So I'm writing it down. So then writing it down and that page sync together in my brain. So I'm looking at the book in my brain right now. That's just how it works for me. And I have to do it over and over again. So that page is stuck in my mind. So I'm literally flipping through pages as I'm taking these tests. And I'm taking these national tests to become a paramedic or become an advanced EMT or whatever. I'm literally as I'm taking that test I'm going through. And I'm like-- now I'm flipping pages in my head where that page was. And how I do that is just from how I write it and how it's on the page. When I run, I can't recall any of it. I cannot bring any of that because I'm running.
16:20 How my mind is wired now is that everything I do is what I do. Because the focus it takes for me to-- right now, I'm running. I'm not like a great runner. I'm not like injury free. So like my first 20 minutes of the run I'm limping. I'm literally limping because I've had several knee surgeries. And my body was twisted. And so now it's untwisting. So people look at me, oh, looks, like he's limping when he runs. I am limping when I run. My body is jacked up so I'm focusing on how to get the best out of a broken body. So everything I do is a total focus on what I'm doing at that point in my life. ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it seems like you've really trained away or somehow gotten away from the ADD
17:07 that you mentioned because what you described is like a deep trench. It's like a V shaped trench. I'm imagining like there's a ball bearing, and it's like, phewp, and it can only go forward in that trench or back. And it goes forward. It's not like sliding around at the concave at the bottom, zip-zip-zip, like a tension. So it's like you trained that up. Is there a similar feeling when you're in the full focus of running versus full focus of studying? Does it kind of feel like, oh yeah, that's the same groove but different thing or is it just completely different world? DAVID GOGGINS: It's a completely different world. Both of them for me is suffering, but it's suffering a whole different way. Like when I was going through school, I never forget-- I think I was in third grade. And back then, ADD, ADHD, wasn't like here's this medicine
17:57 or here's this thing. They want to put you in a special school. So for me, I was so far behind in learning that their big thing was let's just put him in a special school because he'll never learn. And through that process of like I don't want to be in a special school, I don't want to be treated any differently, it really-- like I never took medication. I've never taken medication for this. That's why right now you see me looking right in your eyes. What the hell is Huberman saying right now. And that's why I don't feel bad for people who have ADHD, who have learning disabilities. And some are impossible because you just can't. But a lot of them you can. But people don't want to go through the process of focus,
18:45 of teaching yourself how to truly focus. This is where my message gets lost. It gets lost because I may say MF or F because that's the passion that comes out of me. It takes everything for me to learn a sentence. So when I speak about David Goggins, I can't speak about David Goggins in a way that's just calm and cool. Because when I wake up, I know the journey that it takes for me to find my greatness. And it's hard. Nothing is easy. Nothing just like, oh, I wake up, and I just do this or I do that or it just-- no, I watch people every day go through life, and it's so easy. For me to be where I'm at today, it takes every bit of me. So when I speak about it, and as I get going here,
19:33 you'll start seeing me-- the tempo will rise. The passion will come out because I'm back there. I'm doing what I do every day to become a human being. And so nothing is easy. Like running is running. It sucks. But you have a choice to make. Do you want to sit down and go back to that guy you once were? No. So this is what it takes. It takes that misunderstanding of people. And they'll never get it because they were never David Goggins. So that is what it takes for me to do what I do. It may take you something differently. So for me, everything has to be in the study. Everything has to be into this. Everything has to be in-- everywhere I am it has to be there, me, focused where I am. That's why you're my second podcast I've done since Rogan, since the book came out. I don't have time for that shit because if I want to be great,
20:21 I'm not trying to maximize money or maximize people knowing me. I do these things because maybe someone out there will understand me and get it and say, I can grow from this guy, and others just won't. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sounds like friction is something you're very familiar with. It's a word just I feel like is like cast above us right now in bold face, highlighted, underlined letters. DAVID GOGGINS: Friction is growth. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Friction, like you're up in the morning. And I imagine David Goggins going to the coffee maker, stretching out, good morning, sunshine. And you're telling me from eyelids open there's friction. DAVID GOGGINS: Yes, and that is the thing that people don't-- they don't fucking get. The biggest misunderstanding about David Goggins of all time-- it's like whether you believe in God or not--
21:07 I do-- he put this lab rat, which is me, on this planet and said let me fucking see what a beat up, abused kid who can barely learn, barely learn, who has a twisted body, messed up genetics, sickle cell, this and that, let me give him everything that pretty much disqualifies you from the military. But back then, it wasn't as-- and let's put him in this and see what comes out of it. So to do that, friction-- you don't wake up in the morning time and go to the coffee maker. Matter of fact, sometimes you don't even sleep. What it requires is when I'm at-- 2 o'clock-- it's 2 o'clock in the morning. And my brain is thinking about a fucking drug.
21:55 And I got to get up and look in my book to see what that drug is, how I remember it. And this is every day of my fucking life. That's why when I train a fighter or I train someone, I'm like, you have no fucking idea how great you really are because you are using such minimal, minimal of what you have. And if people can learn to focus, this is what's possible. While it may not be pretty-- like people want to do a documentary on me. I go no. I don't want to do a documentary on me because I will have normal everyday people picking me apart. Oh, his life is miserable. Who wants to live like that? It's crazy how he-- it's almost like he's sick.
22:40 He's psychotic. The most frustrating thing in the world for me is when normal people judge a man like myself on what it really takes to extract greatness from nothing. It takes every bit of who you are if you choose that route. If you don't, Merry Christmas, do what you got to do. But, yeah, all these things for me-- like I told you, man, I'm going to keep it real. I'm not coming here to talk about perform without purpose because I go through-- when I write these books, I go through, I try to dumb down David Goggins. How can I give normal people-- and I'm normal.
23:28 But I found something that most don't want to find. How can I speak to people and give them something from this crazy psychotic brain that I've developed? How can I give them that? So I sit down with Jennifer for years and write down perform without purpose, callus your mind, armor your mind, the cookie jar, the accountability mirror, shit that people can fucking use in their lives. No, no, I'm glad it helps you. But the barbaric life that I live that you have to live, the almost obsession that you must have to be great, you can't put that shit in a fucking book, bro. You can't put in a book. You can't. You can't write about it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: It has to be experienced.
24:13 DAVID GOGGINS: It has to be experienced. And you can't even-- after you experience it, to write it in the book, it would seem like he needs to be locked up. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Too gory. DAVID GOGGINS: It's too gory. Doesn't make sense for a guy that everything, every second of the day he is trying to extract more from something. He's constantly thinking. He's constantly, constantly disciplined, never going off the path. Whatever is injured on him, he figures away. It's a conquerors mindset. And very few people, if any, can really understand what that is. Like I'm almost 50. And I've been this way for almost 30 years. Like what do you do for fun?
25:02 These questions, I don't get them. I don't understand them. I don't-- so yeah. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I get asked that sometimes, what do you do for fun. I start listing off all this stuff like podcasting, reading, working out. So some of that resonates. But I think what's so truly unusual about what you're describing, your process is that from go it's hard. And I have to ask was being 300 pounds, having essentially-- I'm using the words you've described. DAVID GOGGINS: No, do it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: You've said it before. You had a tendency at one point in your life early on tell lies, try and get people's approval. DAVID GOGGINS: Lied my ass off. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Crazy haircuts, attention seeking, and yet all of that triggered something
25:47 that now is extraordinary. Do you think those hardships were necessary to flip the switch? DAVID GOGGINS: I don't know if they were necessary, but it was something that made me feel-- I didn't feel good. It was easy. The brain that I was given as a child, it was easy to go home and think about, how do I want to be a freak today? How do I want to show up to school today and be a freak? It didn't require me going home and opening a book up saying, it's going to take me all year to learn this fucking page. So instead of learning that page, I learned how to become a character.
26:33 And maybe that character that I created, that 300 pound, insecure guy that used to fake it till I make it type of guy, let me become your friend, let me lie to you until you like me type of guy-- when you have any manhood, womanhood, a human being, a soul, a spirit, any-- I must have just this much pride because that's exactly what opened the door for me. Because every day, you were a character. Every day, you were a clown. Every day, you opened that Spanish book or that science book or English book, and you looked at it. It looked like a foreign language. And you're saying, where do I start?
27:20 Where do I start? And, obviously, it was necessary. The more I talk about it, it was necessary because what happened is I became haunted by the mere fact that this is my existence. And you got to live with that. And I lived with it for a lot of years. And so I sat back and said, OK, all right, I know what this takes. And when you sit back, as fucked up as I was-- and I had a laundry list, a table like this of what I have to do to become just a human being that can make ends meet, that can make $1,000 a month. Just to get there was like, oh my god, dude, like how-- I'm 16, 17, I can't read.
28:06 I can't write. Oh my god, I'm so behind the power curve. And my brain is about being depressed. And my dad beat-- my mom's not home. And kids are calling me nigger at school. And I'm like, oh my god, man, what the fuck do I do? And it wasn't like someone came around and said, hey, man, you can do this. This is all me. Some people want to know where does this cold man come from. I'm not trying to be cold. It's the reality of my life. It's the reality of a lot of people's lives. And so, yeah, that had to happen for me to be haunted, to be haunted, to pull out, to extract the guy that I am today. That haunting is something that's still there today
28:51 because no matter how much you improve, no matter how much you change who you are, it's not permanent. You don't just wake up and say, oh my god, man, you're David Goggins. You break records. You do this. You do that. People want to know, how are you able to just be so hard? Because I never turn the fucking thing off. Because once it turns off, I go right back to the David Goggins that is. And that's the guy that I'm constantly fighting every day. And it's a choice. And that choice makes you misunderstood. It makes you crazy. That's why I hate fucking social media. In 2013, people wanted me to write my book. I did it in 2018.
29:37 Took five years. And the reason why I didn't do it-- I sat at the table, and Jennifer was there. This was before she started working for me, I started dating her or whatever. And all these people were there. And they're like, man, you got to go on social media. And I was like, fuck you, man. It's poison. It's poison because I knew what I did to get where I am. And I'm going to have these people, these normal, everyday people, fat, lazy, exactly who I was judging me. Because I know it because I was once them. All my hard work, all my dedication, I'm going to have some normal dude get his little brownie, his little Ding Dong, Ho Ho, Twinkie, sit there with his coffee picking me apart.
30:24 Oh, he must be unhappy. Do you know how hard it is to put these shoes on every damn morning? And I'm gonna have you pick me apart? So, yeah, there's so much that goes into this that I was like fuck this. I never wanted anything to do with it. So anyway. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm not a psychologist. But knowing your story from what you've written, what you've said on social media, and elsewhere, podcasts and here now especially, it's amazing to me, and, frankly, it pulls at my heartstrings a little bit I realize that's not what you're trying to do but that in the course of your childhood and in your young adulthood that no one ever got between you and the world.
31:11 I forget where I heard it that if a kid has just one person that believes in them-- and I had my trials and tribulations. But I had great coaches, great mentors. I attached to them. I found them if they didn't necessarily find me. But I'm realizing that your situation was no one's ever said, hey, I'm going to stand here next to you or get in front of you, put a shield up. And so it's almost like you've got these different-- it's all you, but there's versions of yourself-- that like you knew social media-- like I don't know that I have the wherewithal in 2013 '14, '15, '16, '17 to get in front of myself while doing all this because I've already got so much going on in here. Is that about right? DAVID GOGGINS: That is right. But I had developed a lot of anger.
31:57 And I still have it. And it will never go away for the normal human beings of this world because when you put yourself in the sewer like I was in-- and please, if someone saved me, come out and announce it to the world. There was no one. There's no one. So when you know that-- and then I'm sitting at the table with all these smart people who are telling me what to do and shit and guiding me through my life now when I'm 40 fucking years old. It's 2000-- I don't know 40-something years old. Now I'm 49. And I'm looking at them all. And they're now trying to guide me on what's right on this poison. And so, yeah, what you say is right. But for me, it was more of I know now.
32:46 I don't need you to guide my future. I know what's good for me and what's bad for me. And for me, it took every bit of focus I could. And I know social media-- that's why people love to go on there because they want to show you the good side of life. I'm not teaching good side of life. So I had to figure out a way when I came on 2016 of teaching you what life really is for the majority of us is hell. And so while people love to show you the cars, and the house, and the vacations and shit, all that's good. All that's happy. I'm going to show you the side that I know most of you are going through. And people hide very well.
33:33 I don't want to hide anymore. I hid it for 24 fucking years. So that's why now when I told you we can talk about whatever you want because as human beings, the first thing we have to learn-- I also stuttered real bad growing up. So if you hear me stutter every now and then, it's because that was part of my life also. So it's funny. Human beings want to show you the best side. And they want to hide the worst side. For me, I'm going to teach you how to be vulnerable because that's the only way you fix yourself. You don't fix yourself by coming out here and me selling you some fucking books. That's why I don't have them. I forgot them. I'm glad people got something from the book. I want you to learn that the only way you grow
34:21 is how to look at yourself and say, OK, like I did, table longer than this, what the fuck I have to do to get somewhere? There was nothing good on there, nothing. Yeah, I loved playing basketball. I left that out. That's something I love to do. I don't care about that. That didn't make the fucking list because the list that I had to live by was the very list that was going to get me at this table with you to talk to you to the normal human beings, which I once was, about how you can get somewhere and how it looks. It looks very ugly. There's no fucking passion. There's no fucking motivation. There's no, oh my god, man, I fucking-- no, it's every day of your life just doing,
35:11 no passion, no discipline, no motivation, all these words. I hate that so many people fucking use these words now because it's watered. Someone sitting in the room by themselves and they figure themselves out and say, god, this is going to fucking suck. Where's passion when you're 300 pounds? Where's the motivation when you can't read and write? Where is it? So how did this happen? I just fucking did. I just did. I said maybe at the end of this journey, there will be something there for me. If not, I can read. If not, I'm 185 fucking pounds. There was no magic potion. There was no, oh, let me wake up and look at some shit. No.
35:56 All those words are overused. They're bullshit. It's all bullshit. Just do. You're living. How do you want to live? How do you want to die? How do you want to fucking be remembered? That's it. Period. ANDREW HUBERMAN: As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012. So I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs. Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole foods sources that include vegetables and fruits every day. But, oftentimes, I simply can't get enough servings. But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins, and minerals, and the probiotics that I need. And it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress.
36:42 Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1. I have more focus and energy, and I sleep better. And it also happens to taste great. For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked if you could take just one supplement what would it be, I answer AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3, K2. Again that's drinkag1.com/huberman. The word haunted is ringing in my head. DAVID GOGGINS: Yep. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think it's such a powerful word. DAVID GOGGINS: Yep. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because I was about to m it seems like a huge part of your process, maybe the entire process, is it's all stick no carrot,
37:27 you talk about the carrot, the positive thing. And then there's the stick, the thing you're trying to avoid. I feel like it's-- the way it's landing for me is it's all stick and gas pedal. DAVID GOGGINS: That's it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: There's no carrot. You're not imagining, oh, when I'm a paramedic, when the book is published. And, obviously, you set those goals, and you make those targets. But it's all stick. DAVID GOGGINS: All stick. ANDREW HUBERMAN: No carrot. DAVID GOGGINS: Think about that. I'm waking up right now studying. Like I have a test tomorrow. I already passed the fucking test. Think about that. Every day in my life, that's what I must do just to retain what I learned. Four hours plus a day, I go through and do that.
38:13 There's no stick. Or there's only a stick. There's never been a carrot, which is why when I speak to people, I have to figure out a way to resonate with them. Because all I want to say to them is let me teach you the real life, how it really is. The reason why you're a loser and the reason why you're not fucking making it and the reason why you're trying to go to all these-- I go to all these fucking conventions, speak all the fucking time. I look in the fucking audience. And these people sign up, sign up, sign up fucking every year go to a convention, thinking they're going to learn something fucking different. No, you're lazy. You know exactly what to do, exactly what to do.
38:58 Because even me in my state of I can't read and write, I knew exactly what to do. It just sucks doing it. It sucks to do it. It sucks to wake up every morning of your life and say, god, man, I'm not smart. So guess what I got to do. I got to study the same shit that I got one of the highest scores in the nation on and do it again, and do it again, and do it again. It's not just there. It's not just there permanently for me. So, yeah, it's all stick. It's all stick. The only carrot you have is like maybe, maybe. Because whenever I take these tests that are real hard,
39:45 the back of my brain is like a good chance you're not going to make it, Goggins. This ain't you, bro. This ain't you. You weren't born like this. This ain't you. The real you, bro-- study all you want to. But the second that fucking computer comes on with 150 questions, this ain't you, man. And somehow, comes back. I passed. I passed again, passed again. But that real me back here every fucking time is saying that ain't you, bro. That ain't you. And I have to outwork that voice. When I'm taking that test and I get to a question I don't fucking know the answer, I'm like fuck, man. And then say, see I told you, man.
40:30 That ain't you. You're 300 pounds, man. You sit at home. You figure out how to do your hair. That's what you do, how to come to school with the reverse baldness when you're 16. That's you. So there is no get out of jail free card. This is why I say stay hard. Because when you weren't given the gifts, the only thing you can do in life is stay hard. And I know people cannot stand me. They can't stand this talk. This is all you can do. There's no magic pill or a magic potion. All you can do is outwork the man that God created or woman in you.
41:17 And what that looks like is unfun. That's why I said, do not do a documentary on me because people will not see the truth. They will see what they want to see is I don't want to live like that. Good good. And you will live exactly the way you live now, questioning who you are, wondering what is possible, wondering what you are capable of doing. That's how that looks or you can be me, which am I happy? I don't know. Never really thought about it. Don't really care about it because all I really cared about was when I looked in that fucking mirror, I saw a piece of shit. Happiness wasn't on the mirror at 16 or when I was 300 pounds. It wasn't like, I'm looking for happiness. No, I'm looking at myself in the mirror and say, all right,
42:05 motherfucker, you did it again today. You're a bad boy because that shit sucks. I have about a couple of minutes of that that I got the carrot. The second I lay down and go to bed, the carrots gone because I'm waking up all through the night to check the work I did that day. Did I get this drug right? Did I get this right? Did I get that right? What did I do? Oh my god, fuck, I'm already losing it. Stick. ANDREW HUBERMAN: That stick's haunting you. DAVID GOGGINS: Haunting me. ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's following you around. So no picture of Jordan on the wall. You're not listening to YouTube inspiration video. DAVID GOGGINS: No. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Those would be all your voice anyway. [LAUGHTER] You're not listening to your top 10 favorite songs
42:50 just to get rolling and then lace the shoes, hit the books. It's all in here. DAVID GOGGINS: All in there. I used to do that when I was fat. Rocky, I mean, that was my thing. Round 14 was my thing. And as I got older and older and older, that started to go away. And I started to create-- I had all these people that I used to watch. Rocky was one, Barnes, Elias from "Platoon," Jack from "A Few Good Men" when he's on the stand going crazy. I saw a lot of these characters that I looked at and I was like, man, I ain't got none of that. But they were characters. After a while, I lived a life so disciplined
43:38 that every body that I once looked to, these fake characters, I built that as a man. And when I was younger, I had this image in my mind of what does a man look like to me? And I got all these people who are badasses, characters. And in my mind, I became that. And that's what kept me going a lot was I had this pipe dream of becoming a little bit of this and a little bit of that because when you have no parents raising you and you have no role models growing up, it's not daydreaming. You start to create a reality like, mm, maybe I can be that.
44:25 And after becoming this guy, that is the biggest thing I can ever do in my life is I became that guy. That I once looked at all these, guys and now I look at myself like, god, who the fuck can do that? I can. But what it takes is a discipline that no one can ever even-- they don't understand it. They don't understand it. But everybody has the ability to do it, but they just don't want to. They want to keep asking questions and keep going to seminars. And the greatness is right in you. And that's why once again-- I say this a million times here, I do not feel sorry for you. I will not sugarcoat what I'm going to say to you because all of you know what I'm saying is the truth.
45:12 Everybody knows it's the truth. This is what it looks like. And you know it too. You know it too. If you ain't got nothing, I hate to tell you what it looks like. It's ugly. It's not a documentary. It's not an HBO special. You ain't going to watch me like, hey, man, you guys gotta watch this. No, it's like, oh, god, this looks like a train wreck. It's like a nightmare. This looks like this guy's got-- no, that's what it looks like. Hard work looks horrible. It's not motivating. It's not motivating at all. It ain't like Rocky round 14 where he gets knocked down and goes like this to Apollo Creed. Looks like a man being stuck in a fucking dungeon. And there's no fucking way out. But you have the fucking key. But you refuse to use it. And that's nothing motivating about that.
45:57 So, yes, no documentary on David Goggins. ANDREW HUBERMAN: The real life-- DAVID GOGGINS: The real life. ANDREW HUBERMAN: --David Goggins is the documentary. It's already being written. You're it. DAVID GOGGINS: Right. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I'm going to share a little neuroscience tidbit. DAVID GOGGINS: Love it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: But I think it's one that you'll appreciate. Most people don't know this, but there's a brain structure called the anterior mid-cingulate cortex. As we pointed out before, that's a noun. It's a name. It doesn't mean anything. We could call it the Cookie Monster. But what's interesting about this brain area is there are now a lot of data in humans, not some mouse study, showing that when people do something they don't want to do like add three hours of exercise per day or per week
46:43 or when people who are trying to diet and lose weight resist eating something, when people do anything that they, and this is the important part, that they don't want to do, it's not about adding more work. It's about adding more work that you don't want to do. This brain area gets bigger. Now here's what's especially interesting about this brain area to me. And by the way, I'm only learning this recently because it's new data. But there's a lot of it. The anterior mid-cingulate cortex is smaller in obese people. It gets bigger when they diet. It's larger in athletes. It's especially large or grows larger in people that see themselves as challenged and overcome some challenge.
47:30 And in people that live a very long time, this area keeps its size. In many ways, scientists are starting to think of the anterior mid-cingulate cortex not just as one of the seats of willpower but perhaps actually the seat of the will to live. DAVID GOGGINS: See, now we're talking. ANDREW HUBERMAN: And when I learned about the anterior mid-cingulate cortex, I was like almost out of my seat. And I've been in the neuroscience game since I was 20. DAVID GOGGINS: Now we're talking. ANDREW HUBERMAN: We're the same age. And I was so pumped because I've heard of the amygdala, fear, prefrontal cortex. It's planning an action. I could tell you every brain area and every-- I teach neuroanatomy to medical students. But when I started seeing the data on the anterior mid-cingulate cortex, I was like, whoa,
48:16 this is interesting. And all the data point to the fact that we can build this area up. But that as quickly as we build it up, if we don't continue to invest in things that are hard for us, that we don't want to do-- that's the part that feels so Goggin-esque to me, that we don't want to do. Like if you love the ice bath-- yeah, I love the ice bath-- and you go from 1 minute to 10 minutes, guess what, your anterior mid-cingulate cortex did not grow. DAVID GOGGINS: None. ANDREW HUBERMAN: But if you hate the cold water, if you're afraid of drowning and you get into water and put your head under and survive, then the anterior mid-cingulate cortex gets bigger. But if you don't do it the next day or if you do it the next day and you enjoy it because, hey, hey, I did it yesterday,
49:02 woo-hoo, happy me, Merry Christmas as you would say-- DAVID GOGGINS: Right. Merry Christmas. ANDREW HUBERMAN: --guess what, the anterior mid-cingulate cortex shrinks again. To me, this is one of the most important discoveries that neuroscience has ever made because it's that I don't want to do something but do it anyway that grows this area. And it's almost like-- I have a friend. He's been sober 30 years from alcohol. And he always says, the amazing thing about addiction is there's a cure. The problem is it only works one day at a time. And so you have to renew it every day. DAVID GOGGINS: That's right. ANDREW HUBERMAN: So the anterior mid-cingulate cortex to me-- when I learned about it, two things went off in my head. Whoa, this is super interesting. And, two, I got to tell David Goggins about this. And I waited until now-- DAVID GOGGINS: I'm glad. ANDREW HUBERMAN: --to tell you because I felt like, well,
49:48 for obvious reasons I wanted to tell you and I wanted to tell you here. DAVID GOGGINS: Well, I love that because that's how I've lived my entire life. I don't know anything about that. But people go, man, you have such a strong will. It's something that you build. Like I never forget I was on a podcast one time. And this dude goes you were blessed with a strong mind. Like the hell are you talking about I was blessed with a strong mind? That's something that you have to develop. You develop that over years, decades of suffering and going back into the suffer. That's why a lot of people who graduate Navy SEAL training, they want to know--
50:35 I talk about it very openly all the time. A lot of guys don't want to go back into that water, don't want to go back into the hard stuff. And maybe not-- anything hard, anything hard in life, once you get through it, it's like you become a POW. Like how many POWs you know want to go back to POW camp? None. When something sucks so bad in life-- this is on this that we're talking about now-- very few people want to go back. They're happy they graduated. I realized I'm the same way. I don't want to go back. I have to go back. I must go back because that is exactly where all the knowledge
51:21 of my life exists was back there in what you're exactly what you're talking about. Well, I didn't know anything about this. But how I grew a will was constantly doing these things to now it's just life. I wake up. While it still sucks, it's just life. You don't sit back and like, oh my god. Like I have days I don't want to do. But I know I'm going to do it. I know from years of just doing it. So that's beautiful. And this is why I came on here with you today. And I'm glad that you're talking about this because human beings need to hear this. They need to stop hearing these hacks on this and that. There's no fucking hack, bro. There's no fucking hack.
52:06 Yeah, you may this and that and saunas and all this shit that they-- yeah, it's great. There is no fucking life hack. To grow that thing-- how do you grow it? Do it, and do it, and do it, and do it. That's the hack. The hack is going to fucking suck. And that's what I realized. That's what I realized. That's why I wanted to come on here today. I didn't want to come on here and talk about no fucking passion and purpose and how to get the fuck out of bed and how to hit a fucking alarm clock, all this catchphrase bullshit because that wasn't how I lived, wasn't how I lived. I lived, I woke up like every human being does and goes fuck, man. I'm a fucking piece of shit today. How the hell is this going to work out for me?
52:53 And you fight that. You don't override it. There's no override button. It's the conversation in your head. So how do you do that? We don't have enough of these conversations about the real conversation that every human being is having. And they have no idea how to get out of it. But they do is that shit right there, man. You got to build your will. How you build your will? Exactly what you said, man. Exactly what you said. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I feel like knowing the name of something, anterior mid-cingulate cortex, doesn't fundamentally change us. But one thing I like about biology is that willpower, if somebody feels they don't have it, feels like this thing that other people have. But everybody, unless they're brain-damaged,
53:40 like a hole through their head, has two anterior mid-cingulate cortex, one on each side of their brain. Everyone has one. They have two. So I feel like it's just a question of opening the portal. And the portal-- again, I'm going to say 10 times, and forgive me-- is I think people go, oh, I do hard things. I do sets to failure. And then I do forced reps. I love training with weights. I love doing sets to failure. I even like forced reps. But guess what? I like forced reps. So I'll tell you, they don't build my anterior mid-cingulate cortex because I like to do it. Anything you like to do is not going to enhance this aspect of willpower. And it seems so obvious once you hear it. You kind of go, oh yeah, of course. But I think you really close that loop for people
54:29 when you share what you're sharing today and what you've shared elsewhere before as well. When you're trying to explain the friction is the critical ingredient. And I think people think, oh, if it's effort, well, then I'm getting better. That's part of it, necessary, but not sufficient, as we say in science. But the suck part, the haunt, being haunted, the stick, they're really unpleasant terms. These are probably the most unpleasant terms we've ever used on this podcast. Those are the-- those are the levers. Those are the gears. And without those, this thing that you're talking about, David Goggins, as a verb-- I sometimes make the joke, but it's not a joke. Goggins is a name, and it's a verb.
55:15 People go, I'm on to Goggins that. But that's, I think-- again, I'm not a psychologist. But I think that's what you're talking about, the stick, the friction, being haunted. It's the suck part that grows this anterior mid-cingulate cortex. DAVID GOGGINS: So now you know why there's so many people that fail in this world to figure out their purpose, their purpose in life. Where do I go? Because to grow that, now, you may not look like me, how my daily life looks. It don't look fun. Don't look fun. So it's a choice that people have to make in life. But what's so funny about it is even the richest of rich,
56:02 who have everything, they always ask me this question. I feel like I'm missing something. I don't feel like I'm missing shit. I don't have what you all have. But you will never in my life hear me tell you I'm missing something. And everybody is. They're missing this feeling. I found it a long time ago. And I found it right there in that willpower thing. When you're nothing, nothing, and change yourself into something, like me, you call it happiness, peace, whatever the fuck you want to call it, people are missing exactly what went on with David Goggins.
56:51 Why don't you smile? I do. But I figured something out. That's why I am never-- you never hear me say, I'm missing something. I found it years ago. You find it in the suck. And you find it repeatedly in the suck to the point where you know exactly who you are. Most people are missing something because they don't know who they are. They never examined themselves. They've never done this experiment on themselves. The lab rat. We're all lab rats. But you're also the scientist. You create your own self. Most people are missing something because there's so much trapped in there. I don't even want to say potential.
57:37 I think that's a word-- it's used out too much too. There's so much in you that God or whoever the hell you believe in or if you're an atheist in you that you have not unlocked, that you walk around with this gorgeous wife or great husband and all this money. You're like, god, I feel like I'm missing something. Yeah, because it's about 75% of you is still fucking in there, still chained up because you just didn't want to find your willpower, didn't want to find your soul, your will, your heart, your determination, your guts, your courage. And what that looks like, it looks scary, like you're little scary lab that went in. Scary to wake up every day and say, I'm stupid, but I'm going to figure out a way to be smarter versus saying, man, I just can't do that.
58:24 So you limit this box. So your box becomes so small of things you can do. My box wasn't even a box. It was a fucking little pinhole. And then through examining myself, getting some willpower, some courage, it became bigger than this table. But that's what we all do. That's why I wanted to come here today and talk to you about real shit, not no fucking hacks. There's no hacks, bro. It's you against you. You against you. And if you misunderstand that, you have a real problem, real problem. I can understand you misunderstand me, running down the street, shirt off, fuck this, no. Yeah. I can get it. I get it. If you misunderstand what I'm saying right now today,
59:09 the problem is you. And you don't want to fix it. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, the children of wealthy people are a case study in how not having enough friction can destroy a life. DAVID GOGGINS: True statement. ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, I could list off prominent names in the press. But those are actually the least interesting. What's probably more interesting, as an example, is all the ones we don't hear about because we never hear about them. They just dwindle and wither. Or I think there's this big category of people, I'm realizing, as we have this conversation today that they're not super successful. They're not struggling. They're successful enough that they never have to-- you can get to the point where you don't have to impose friction.
59:56 You even said it. Your bank account is in a place where you don't really need to do all the things you do, probably not even a small fraction of them. DAVID GOGGINS: Do nothing. ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right. But you realize the stick and being haunted is the fuel and the engine. And you'd be a-- you'd be truly crazy to give that up because you've internalized all that. But most people, they're good enough for them. And so they don't actually want to be better badly enough in order to start going rung after rung. DAVID GOGGINS: Well, think about when you build willpower. And think about how much I've built. Now that you know about this-- I didn't know about this. But think about how much I've built. Everything I've ever done in my life, I didn't want to do.
1:00:42 Everything every day. I'm a lazy piece of shit. And I'm one of the hardest working people to ever step foot on this planet Earth. And I'm saying that very proudly because I know what I do. It's not cocky. I'll tell you I'm stupid. And I'll also tell you the exact opposite of what I've done. It's the truth. It is the truth. So imagine how much I've developed in that time frame. But this is the scary thing. Why most people don't want to do that and build that willpower is because it is scary. It unlocks a whole bunch of things about who you are and who you're not. And a lot of people don't want to go down that journey to discover who they are and who they're not
1:01:27 because it's not a pretty journey. I mean, I've gone down it. It's not like I went down it once. I go down it all the time. And when you unlock that-- and you can't just turn it off. Like, people say, hey, how come you haven't retired yet? I built all this willpower. Do you think it's going to let me just retire because my knees hurt? It is telling me every morning-- I wake up, and I'm like, man, my knees hurt. My legs hurt. My body hurts. But you can still run. So why aren't you running? If you can still run-- there will be a time when you can't lace them up anymore. But you can still run. So I still run. When the time comes I can't run, the body will say,
1:02:16 you just can't run. But if I can still do something, that willpower that I have created, it makes me do it every fucking day. And that's what they don't get. What builds a human being is you start with the small building blocks. And before you know it, man, you become something that it doesn't even make sense to most people because it's just who you are now. That's why I can still run at 50 with broke-- at 49 with broke down knees and broke down body because my body knows you still can. Therefore, I do. Second you stop, the willpower is gone. And that's beautiful. I'm so glad you brought that to me because I always wondered, what's this separation thing now? At 24 years old, I started building something that I didn't even know was going
1:03:01 to be what it is now at 49. And that's all it was. It was just that. ANDREW HUBERMAN: This structure, anterior mid-cingulate cortex, has inputs and outputs from a bunch of places. But you'll probably not be surprised to learn that it's strongly activated when we move our body when we don't want to move our body. I feel like it's like the David Goggins structure. DAVID GOGGINS: It really is. ANDREW HUBERMAN: It is. And it also has strong connections to the dopamine reward pathway. And everyone goes, yay, dopamine. Everyone loves dopamine. I'm partially responsible for people knowing a bit more about dopamine. But dopamine's badly understood. Everyone thinks dopamine, dopamine hits. It's about reward. It's about motivation and drive.
1:03:47 And there are pain inputs to the dopamine centers of the brain. No one talks about that. Everyone's like, oh, you want the chocolate, chocolate, sex, cocaine. Yeah, that's all true. It'll release dopamine. Pain releases dopamine. The anterior mid-cingulate cortex can trigger the release of dopamine in response to this thing that we're calling friction. And that's a learned thing. That's something that no animal or human being comes into the world learning. We all are averse to pain. And like pleasure, like sugar, fat. Don't like hot surfaces. But this is a structure that learns. It has neuroplasticity, the ability to change throughout the entire life span. And here's the part that I think, again, is just neuro nerd speak for what you already know
1:04:34 and have done and exemplify, is that people say, oh, it has plasticity. You can change it. But guess what? It has plasticity in both directions. It can grow. But just as easily as it can grow, it's like Silly Putty, it can shrink. So it requires constant upkeep. And that answer isn't one that people are going to like. They're like, give me the energy drink. Give me the supplement. Give me the-- give me the sauna protocol that's going to make my anterior mid-cingulate cortex-- there's someone out there right now who's going, wait, if I took transcranial magnetic stimulation and I stimulate-- yeah, you'd probably-- actually, they've done that. They stuck a little wire during neurosurgery into this structure. This was actually discovered by a colleague of mine, Joe Parvizi. Stimulate. And the patients go, I feel like there's a storm coming.
1:05:21 And they go, oh, is it scary? And they go, no, I want to go through it. They come off the stimulation, and people are like-- this is the seat of what we're talking about. DAVID GOGGINS: Right. Exactly. ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it learns. So the fact that you've kept this brain structure-- I'm convinced if we imaged your brain, it'd be large, and it would be larger in two years, in a year. But this is the no days off rationale because it can grow, and it can shrink. DAVID GOGGINS: I know. What you're saying right now, I didn't know any of this. And I never-- and I always talk to you. But I wish I could just put this on paper. And you're saying it in a way that people can understand. I can never put it into words on what I built
1:06:06 and the power that is within all of us. But you put it so in a scientific way. Most people, for me, he's just crazy. That's why I don't like talking about it, man. I know I'm not crazy. I know what I had to do to get where I had to go. People look at it as crazy because there are people that just-- if you can't imagine yourself doing something, the person that's doing it is crazy because in your mind, the logic behind it, it doesn't compute. Therefore, you have to give somebody a title. And the title for me is usually he's crazy
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