0:00 I listened to a a teaching by Larry Williams and he mentioned his he had a workshop that he did in person and he called it the inner circle workshop. So I was like that's really cool man inner circle that really resonates with me like I want to be on the inner circle you know and then when I actually got in the inner circle and learned how these really you know these markets really look it's it became obvious that you know I'm I'm inner circle trading now so that was that was the birth of ICT everybody welcome to a new episode Before we get started, make sure you show a little love. If you're on YouTube, subscribe to the channel and
0:46 hit the thumbs up button. If you're on Apple Podcast, make sure you leave us a review. Any other platform that you're on, whatever the love looks like, show a little. And then let's get started. Mr. ICT, how are you doing? Well, sir, how are you doing? Really well. It's very nice to see you for the first time, and it's very nice to have you on. Uh I know that we're just jumping on, but as a way of introduction, I'll just say it's uh I'm very happy that you're here and thanks for making the time. You're very welcome. Uh this is actually the first time that I've ever done a kind of like a podcast where you you could actually see me. Okay. So, you're the first. Very good. Good to know. And uh we'll we'll break the internet for the first time you've come on then turned on your
1:32 camera. Um, as we're jumping into things, we are in 2023, getting ready to start or kick off, should I say, the end of January here. How has 2023 been for you so far? I don't really start trading live again until the first Tuesday of February, but I've been active with the community. I've been teaching on the channel, been calling moves on Twitter daily. So, um, I'll leave the viewers to check on that. themselves, see how well outside of trading, everything going well for um I guess just the rest health, family, and everything else. I'm blessed. I'm absolutely blessed. Uh we moved into a new home. Um this is my
2:18 trading office at the moment, but it's still unpacking. So Oh, brand new. Yeah. All my screens are behind this laptop and everything over here is unfinished still. So I have a lot of things to basically unpack still. Oh, very interesting. Okay, then it's a exciting time to be ICT getting into a new space. That's always nice. Are you moving into the same state or have you made like a a like a large move? The same state. In fact, it's basically like 15 20 minutes away from the house I still own. Oh, okay. So, just down the uh just down the road then. Yeah. Very cool. Um I'll tell you if it's okay. I know we're in the middle of a day. um potentially you're not trading
3:04 live, but I know you have other things to do. And so if we could jump into the interview part because I really would would like to take very good advantage of the time that we have together. And by way of um maybe introduction, I I think I don't want to spend too much time going over just your story because I know I think it's been told a lot, but for for people listening to this conversation and even for me to make sure I have it straight. Um maybe I can go over a few points and then we can uh just spend a few minutes talking about the the beginning years of your trading journey because I think you're very fascinating and and I would like to dive into that just a little bit. Okay. Very good. I'll assume. Okay. Uh, starting off in your trading, this was for you in the the early 90s is when you
3:50 got started. Um, you were introduced to trading or at least what really sparked it for you from what I understand was an online advertising or online an in magazine advertising. And if you could talk a little bit about what that was like specifically maybe before you saw that advertisement, were you intrigued by markets or before that moment was the idea of of being involved as a trader not even on the radar? As a child, I I grew up as a teenager with an uncle that actually got started trading commodities. And he had a a bit of luck with the sugar market. And when I was 13, the summer of the year I
4:35 was 13 going into 14 years old, every Sunday, our family would get together and he would come over and say, "Look, Michael, when you get out of school, get yourself a degree, get a good job, and start trading futures and options. the richest people in the world trade futures and options. And of course, as a typical 13-year-old, 14-year-old, it was going in one area, not the other. I really wasn't intrigued at all by it, but it was being constantly hammered every Sunday from that age on. And I went to work for a Jewish family in Owings Mills, and I was selling vending machines and candy machines. And I was fascinated with the cash aspect of that business, and I was like, I want to be an entrepreneur. And one of the days I came home from doing my route, I was waiting for my then boss
5:21 to count all the revenue I had collected from the machines. And he had an entrepreneur magazine on his desk. And I was so embarrassed to ask him if I could look at it. And finally, I just worked up the courage to say, you Glenn, can I can I look at this? You can have it. So I took it home and I've said this story a lot, but I'll give you a real brief rendition of it. At the back of the magazine, it had a small little classified ad said real money, real people. and it gave like a couple things like $800 to $32,000 in six months, $1,500 into $9,000 and something, you know, I don't have the numbers exactly, but it was something to that effect. Call this 1800 number and get you your details. So I did and it turned out to be Ken Roberts commodity course and it was a looking back it was a poorly written
6:06 introduction to trading that I bought hookline and sinker and I immediately went with one of the brokers that he recommended which was Fox Investments and my first suare in it I lost 50% of my money on the very first trade trading orange juice option. So, uh, that was my introduction to trading and I knew that because I was incorrect and I lost 50% of my money overnight, someone took my money. So, that somebody I I set out to be that person. So, it was a motivational thing. It It was depressing at first, but it turned into a fevered pursuit to become that other person on the other side of the trade. Right on. Very good. Now, when you began trading, this was early mid 90s from
6:52 what I understand. Today, it's stupid easy to set up account. If you want to begin trading and you choose to go down that road, you could start trading live the day you decide that you want to be a trader. What was it like in early 90s to try and set up an account and to trade? And or was it difficult to get a charting package? Was it difficult to get live data? Was was this like a real pain point or what was the process like? Well, back then it felt like cutting edge because we were coming up with internet at the time. Um, internet America Online was the thing and I used a charting package called Meta Stock which was it wasn't the top tier thing. Trade Station was and Super Charts was at the time and I had access to them as
7:38 well, but I preferred MetaT download. So the only thing live I had was a quote track, which was like a for some of you newer folks listening, it won't make any sense to you, but it was like small little handheld transistor radio with a extendable antenna, and it would have real-time quotes going across the screen for all the markets I was subscribed to. Wow. And I would have that duct taped to my windshield of my truck and I'm doing my route watching this thing and literally trading with payoneses. So it took three, four weeks to get your account opened up sometimes with some of these brokers because you have to have to verify you the whole business. Everything was by through mail. And then when you called your orders in, it wasn't like we have a click of a button
8:24 and we can get in an order and get out. like you have to call, wait for them to answer the phone, get the desk that you're on, then wait for them to confirm that your account is who you're the person that owns the account, and then give the order then, then they read the order back to you. The whole time the market's trading, the whole time the market's fluctuating. So, it's a totally different atmosphere for traders today that have come from that era. Yeah. Yeah. Wildly different. It's a I tell you, a good time to be a trader. What uh what a difference it was not that long ago. But we are blessed, I guess, to be dealing with what we have now. Okay. So, one of the things that I I found really fascinating about you is is early on you were getting involved in markets when there was a primary bull run going on and you went on a pretty
9:09 substantial 9month winning streak and uh of just being profitable during a time that I think you would attribute it to good luck where the market was running up, you were taking longs and it was maybe a little bit difficult to even lose money and I would be interested if you could talk a little bit about that experience. Because I think that everybody in their trading journey gets introduced at some point to easy money or some some some substantial wins kind of early on. And a lot of times this can be the worst thing that could happen because it really clouds the line between how easy it is to make money as a trader, which to be fair it is. You push a button, it's going to go up or down. and confusing that for being easy and
9:55 messing up how difficult it is to do that consistently. Um, and if I look at my own experience, there were certain uh trades that I was involved with the same thing similar to your story of just good luck, but they they you know gave me a false idea, but having a ninemonth run is astounding. Um, and so if you could kind of talk about what that was like as a as an early trader and how that went on for so long or or you know if if you quit your job in between or if you you know what what how you handled that situation? Well, most of the trades I I took were based on buying and going long and I didn't understand short selling at all. In fact, it scared me to death because
10:43 I I attributed that any market would be going down, that's a loss. And knowing knowing what I sound like and what I teach today and knowing where I came from, uh there is a total amazing divide from what I thought I knew back then and what I understand about myself and and the market today. So when I was looking at markets in 1992 is when I first started and one trade, one transaction in 1992, that's all there was. I was in and out and done because that one option trade and I went in my mind thinking I'm going to go into the books and learn how to do this. And I I like the idea of using an hourly chart and a stochcastics overbought. And I
11:30 looked for markets that had a ups sloping 50-day moving average. So it was very it was really simple. It was really simplistic and you know anything that's moving up and it's strongly moving up where it's almost like it's a not I don't want to say guaranteed because nothing in trading is guaranteed but the fact that I was in markets that were already predisposed to go up. I was attributing my accuracy, if you want to call it that, because I don't like to call it accuracy now because it was just blind luck. Okay, that buying of an oversold condition with a bullish divergence and a sarcastic on an hourly chart and then buying a you know buying the market on a stop. So I I
12:16 would buy the market when it was moving in my favor. So many times they had already moved you know high-grade copper you know wheat soybeans they were moving sometimes 10 you know 10 cents you before the move actually got me in today I would never trade like that I would never trade that way in fact I'd like to be buying when the market's dropping against me you know I want to see the opposing direction to my trade direction in terms of profit early on I'd listen to folks like Larry Williams who is legendary. Uh he he taught in his courses that buying strength was you know the way to go. And because I was a fanboy and and at heart I still am, um I adopted that mindset.
13:04 And unfortunately, it tricked me into thinking that my early consistency was skill and then it turned around on me. And every time I got into another trade, it was just no, no, denied, denied, denied. And it was going down. And because I was fearful of short shortselling or even understanding, I didn't even want to delve into the topic because I felt like, you know, the stock market is predisposed to go up. Everybody's told to put their money in their 401k. Everyone buys buys buys. So why should I even be worrying about being a short seller? Just do one trick pony approaches to trading and and simplify it for myself. But unfortunately, it closed my mind to understanding where the real risks were. Because if you don't understand where
13:49 the markets are likely to go into a correction or a sell market, you know, bearish market, you're you're not really equipped to be trading. You're not really in a position to be incurring risk. And I found that out the hard way. Sure. Sure. Sure. During that time, were you able to to make withdrawals and and actually pocket money or were you rolling everything over and then did you end up just actually losing everything for your first n or for those for that nine-month period? I ran up and then all of a sudden losing trade, losing trade, losing trade and then the inevitable happened. You know, the the I think I know I'm going to do it better. I'm going to do more leverage.
14:35 I'm not going to use a stop loss this time. And the nine months just went gone. Yeah. So, it was it was nothing. I I ran up nine months and took it home. It was I had the experience. It was exhilarating, but I wasn't able to take it home and do anything because I was in my mind, I'm trying to get to a million because if I can get to a million, I can quit my job when I didn't need to do that. What I needed to do was just stick to my original plan was find one good setup per week. not I'm going to go in every single day because now it looks like everything goes up every day and it's it wasn't like that at all. It turned around like that on me. Yeah. Fascinating time to begin your trading journey in such a uh such a long environment of the same thing and I imagine that was just a shell shock when
15:21 that environment went away uh making the adjustments and everything else. So, it's a it's also a fascinating thing to me. On your early years of posting, you um got approached by a government agency um and they from what I understand you were giving out financial advice um without a license and and things were probably a little bit different back then as well. Could could you just speak briefly about that and kind of like what happened? Did you actually get in trouble or maybe how long it was before you felt comfortable posting again to so that you didn't bring on more Yeah. heat your way? It was the Commodity Futures Chicken Commission. Yeah. It was during the time of the mid 90s. I
16:08 had a following that was growing on America Online and I was posting things about the marketplace and I was calling market moves and I did not understand the legalities of what it was I was doing. I didn't have any risk disclaimer. That's where I was wrong. Um I didn't talk about how, you know, you could lose more money than you have. So one day, you know, I was renting a a room from my aunt and uncle who I was residing with at the time when I was coming up and I got a knock on the door and well-dressed young man says um I'm looking for Michael Hleston. I said I'm him. Boom. You've been served. Hands me an envelope and runs back to his car.
16:55 I'm like what is this? And it said Washington DC and the whole commodity futures trading commission. And it was more or less them saying, you know, you got to give us all of your emails, all of your your laptop, you everything, everything. You got to present it to us and you got to come out here and see us. And as fate would have it, um, my laptop actually died the day before, so I had nothing to provide for them. And I ended up calling and and they just basically were saying, "Look, you what you're doing, you can't do it. You're not even risk. You're not even providing risk disclaimers or nothing." I said, "Okay, well, I'm going to make this real easy for you. I'm just going to stop because I don't know what I'm doing in terms of this." Because I thought it was freedom
17:40 of speech. We don't have freedom of speech in this. This is not freedom of speech. So, I had to more or less just stop doing what I was doing. And but the passion in me like I wanted to I wanted to teach like I wanted to share it. I wanted I wanted to help other people because I knew how passionate I was when I was learning how to do it. So I think it was maybe I don't know a year and a half I sto slowly crept back on the scene but I was constant disclaimers constant no it was obnoxious all the disclaimers I had but um they subpoenaed AOL and anybody that ever instant messaged me and everything but nobody lost any money to have a damaging you know thing to me so everything that I called much like they've been seeing this year it's it's pretty much you know spot on and and I'm thankful for that
18:26 but yeah that was a scary situation because, you know, they threaten you with, you know, five years in prison and a $500,000 fine. And, you know, but I wasn't harming anybody. But what I was doing was, and this is how I look at it, I was talking about something before it happened and it happened. And my observance of things like that, if you're o if you're over the target, you're not supposed to be over the target this this many times and boundaries and barriers will be put up. And that's how I interpreted it. Today might not feel that because everybody feels like they have an open market where they just go out there and click a
19:12 button and there it is. But most time retail traders are not consistent. they're not able to find consistency and when someone stands out from the crowd and it's obvious they don't get the privilege to be able to stay anonymous they they they will be reached out and touched and I had that from the federal government and I have you know learned a lesson from that I don't want to have no no that's why I've always talked openly from a demo account and a lot of people have an issue with that. But, you know, you're basically trading a a demo account with funded accounts. Like, you're you're doing that anyway. So, if you can't read price action, whether it be through the medium of a demo that's
19:57 using live data or if you're trading with a live account, it matters not if the logic is utilized. You know, the same approach is going to be used whether you trade with a live account or not. I enjoy the privilege to be a teacher and the safety of using it through the medium of a demo account. So that way invariably someone's going to listen to what I'm going to say. And if you go to just go look at Twitter, I tell them all the time, don't follow what I'm telling you to do. And they're posting, I made this much money off of what you said. Great. You know, thank you, Dad. [laughter] You know, and that type of stuff is not I don't want that. But if you have someone that's going to follow you and not do all the rules, not have all the discipline that's required, wait around, not take the entry like it
20:42 should be, wait for what they're going to think is confirmation, then they're going to chase the market, then they're not going to use the same stop loss that I would have used because now it's a larger incurred risk if they get stopped out. They're going to use a tighter stop-loss and they're going to get stopped out and they're going to have a realized loss. So, who are they going to blame? They're going to blame me. So, I preach and promote the idea of teaching through a demo and I understand and I accept the fact that some people are not going to find that helpful, but there's a real reason and and I'm trying to prevent that from reoccurring. Yeah, very fascinating experience and I can imagine how scary that must have been, especially young fac uh those kind of consequences. So it's it's also fascinating just looking at life
21:28 how one thing going differently just would have changed everything. One if that would have went a little bit differently for you and you would have spent five years in jail. Like what a different uh life out of that one, you know, one seemingly small thing. Very very interesting. Um now I' I've heard you say before and I would agree that you've just had a very fascinating and even to that point kind of a guided path. Um, and I heard you say this before that the it's incredible how everything in your life has lined up. Do you attribute that to um potentially luck or something along the line of you manifested it? Do you believe that it was a god or the god that that has
22:15 guided your life? Do do you have thoughts on this? This is another controversial subject matter that I have no shame in telling you and I understand that some of your viewers and I'm not sure how you stand with this as well but uh I have a lot of students all around the world that come from different walks of life. Some of them are faith-based, some of them are Muslim, some of them are Jewish, some of them are atheists. Um, I am of the opinion that faith and a creator is the number one reason why I am able to do what I can do. Um because I worked very very hard to try to figure this stuff out and I had a
23:03 I had several experiences that would be otherwise referred to as out of this world type thing and it's very spiritual. I I've been trying to work up the courage to to to present it publicly. I have done it to uh my private mentorship group and and unfortunately it has been leaked and people have used it to to troll me and such but u I am of a very strong opinion that there is a god. Um I believe that uh Jesus Christ was and is that God and it's not my point to preach to anybody but if I'm asked then I have to be ready to give that testimony and that's what I'm I'm doing here. Um, have I ever
23:49 heard the voice of God? Yes, I have. Uh, I have had things shown to me. Um, I've had instructions given to me where my life was preserved because I listened to that very thing at the very moment. Um, I've had instruction given to me. And every time I listen to it, I've been very thankful and blessed for it. when I haven't listened to it, it caused me unnecessary pain and struggle. So, I am not your typical um I'm kind of like the Peter of the Gospels. You know, sometimes I have foot and mouth disease. I open my mouth up and I put my foot in it. So, I'm not a really good uh poster boy for Christianity. And I don't believe
24:36 that we have to go to a church to do that. I think it's necessary for some people, but I have a relationship with Christ. I am a sinner. I cuss. I I lose my temper sometimes because I'm chemically imbalanced. And I don't make apologies for that because I can't change those things. And I tried to do things as best as I can. But to answer your question in short, yes, I do believe I had an experience that helped direct me in my path and preserve me from going in a direction that two gentlemen would rather me had going. Yeah, very well said and thank you for uh opening up on that. I'll tell you it there's been with just questions that I've asked already, there's probably been like three or four topics that
25:22 it's very hard for me just to move on after you reply. But for the sake of u the first time we've ever talked I think and and uh trying to be respectful of of not prying too much into your personal life. Um I appreciate what you have shared and it's it's fascinating to hear. So uh moving on I think that again this is probably a lot of just introduction about you and it's been nice to get to know you and I I sure people will appreciate this uh conversation. I think that when it comes to your actual trading, this is something that is you have put so much out there in in terms of series that are just readily available on your your channel. You've been posting for a very long time on YouTube. You have a massive YouTube following. And I think even in other um
26:09 interviews, you've spoken in depth about your your style. I don't think there's any reason to to maybe beat that up or to to use our time to go over that because I think it's very available if people are interested at all. Um could you maybe though just give like an elevator pitch of how you would say your style is or your approach to trading and then um people that would like to resonate with that who maybe for some reason have lived under a rock and don't know who you are um you know they can be directed to your your YouTube channel where you have a lot of resources if you have tried using everything that's in books. Um, there's a lot of educators out there that are
26:54 well-meaning. They may be even profitable and you may have tried those approaches to trading and you just feel like there's something there's a disconnect. You can't make it work or it's inconsistent and it it doesn't really deliver the storyline as to why price does what we see price do on a day-by-day basis. And that's largely attribute to how markets are booked and delivered algorithmically. So what I try to communicate to my listeners and unfortunately it comes by way of a very drawn out dry discussion which is what coding and algorithmic theory is.
27:40 Unfortunately there's no way for me to sugarcoat it. I guess if I was showing Lamborghinis and and you know the fast track and then splicing in like 10 minutes of you know the things I talk about it would be more palatable for for most folks. But to me I've never been a a supporter of that approach. I like the idea of knowing why I'm doing something in the marketplace. Why should the price go up? Why shouldn't price go down? Why should the market not hit your stop loss? See, with over 2,000 books in my library, I have literally probably read everything that you could ever come across in terms of technical analysis approaches, you know, anything in trading. I've already tried
28:25 all that stuff. And what I've done is tried to communicate in a way where I can take you and anyone else into the marketplace and show how the the algorithm itself is going to deliver price. And it's a large body of viewers and opponents to what it is I talk about in trading. They'll say there is no algorithm. There is no algorithm. And it's important for someone to really take a look at what I'm presenting because when you do that, it's very very difficult to argue how buying and selling pressure agrees with the very levels that I teach that either
29:12 holds price at bay or it reaches to it right to the tick. And my my only challenge to the listeners has always been don't believe me because I said it. Go in look for the things that I'm teaching and see if it doesn't manifest itself in the charts because it does every single day. And I've done this now for 26 years. And I've done one-on-one teachings. I've done group teachings. Now I've done, you know, mentorships. So now I'm doing it publicly and the folks that have arm wrestled the idea of the markets being algorithmic or not um I think everyone understands that there are algorithms in the marketplace trading. Sure.
29:58 But the way the markets are booked and delivers price has nothing to do with buying and selling pressure. The volume is looked at in a way where it's a red herring. The only thing volume is is useful in terms of my understanding about price is I want a lot more volume coming in because they're going to use that volume to take them and place them where they want in the marketplace. My question to you is this. How many contracts would you Aaron expect it to require for the S&P to move 10 handles? 10 handles. How many contracts?
30:43 Oh, um I would guess thousands. Okay, I wouldn't have an accurate number for this. How about five handles? How many would it take? Half of the thousands that it would take to go 10. Okay. When we have our session end at five o'clock and it resumes at six o'clock and we have our gap, how many contracts does it take to have that first print right at six o'clock? When the first trade hits the market and we see the opening price, how many contracts did it take to make that? Uh, one. Yeah. So when we when you take a step back and you say, "Okay, what happens when we have these big sudden movements when FOMC comes out or
31:31 CPI or any any market driver that comes out?" That was the big red flag to me that hey, I was thinking I had to see a lot of volume to keep seeing a trend continue when that's not necessarily the right way of looking at it. You need to see where the market will likely go to. So in my presentations, I teach approach to attacking liquidity. Just like the algorithm is allowing people with the idea that I'm implementing and teaching, they go in and they cannibalize the marketplace. They don't go in looking for patterns to be profitable. They're looking for where the orders are. Above old highs,
32:17 there's buy stops. Below old lows, there's sell stops. Where is it most likely? And obviously, where's it reaching for on a higher time frame chart? If you can peg that, and it's pretty easy. I've taught that many times in in in many of the series I put on my YouTube channel. If you trade with that mindset and just simply look for how the market continuously supports itself, every time a down closed candle forms and it's likely to go up to a buyside liquidity pool, those down closed candles will act just like you are expecting your support and resistance to offer support to the marketplace. And when it creates these little gaps, I call it a fair value gap. It comes down and goes into that, you can reasonably expect the algorithm to start repricing
33:04 and spooling higher and reach to that liquidity pool over the course of a day or over the course of the session. And it takes a couple months just to spend time studying it and you will quickly believe that there is absolutely an algorithm that's controlling price to the tick and it's it's fascinating. It's it's a a wonderful s even if you don't want to subscribe to the idea entirely. If you just go in and just approach price action study with these ideas in mind, you will see clearly that there's much more than trend lines and harmonic patterns and things in Nelly believe all that stuff. I believe and I leave it to
33:49 the viewer to make their final determination on whether this is true for them or not. I believe they're distractions. And that's what I like about I I like about you as a YouTuber because you have something that you implement. You have something that you you teach and your your community doesn't go out like I'm accused of many times. I'm superior and everybody else is sub, you know, substandard. I I like your approach because you have a way that is charming. It's not adversarial. That's the reason why I'm even talking to you because there's a lot of people that have asked for this and I won't I won't give it to them. But I think that even though I don't subscribe to the way you trade or even
34:36 interpret price action, I believe that your personality, your approach to doing what it is that you do is a breath of fresh air because it's it's exactly what I I try every time I go out there and try to do the live sessions or whatever, I try to have a demeanor like yours. But I can't stay balanced long enough. And I my experience, my distaste for what goes on in this industry revs me up. And I'll say things because I've seen something that I've fallen victim to. And when I teach in the way I teach in my my series, I'm actually talking to my children. They're they're like little like my life, you know, Michael Keaton
35:22 movie. I'm recording things so that way if anything ever happens to me, they hear it from me. It's not like they're writing a book and they can say, "Here, dad wrote this book." They can hear me talking to them. They can hear it. And I think that if anyone goes to my channel and just puts down all their preconceived notions about what they believe about price action, what they do, what they like about me, what they heard about me, just put that aside for a moment. Go in and try to debunk what I said. treat that as a challenge. Go in there and see if the things that I'm talking about aren't in fact the very things that's going on and it's going to be 180 degrees diametrically opposed to
36:07 everything you can read in books. You look at volume, you look at price action patterns, you look at, you know, trend lines and moving average crossovers. All those things they may be factors that you can identify when the move are moves are are occurring or after they've occurred but that was not the catalyst that causes the price to move and repric to where it's going to go. And my my challenge to the viewers are always this. If I was using something other than the things I'm talking about, what is it? And why can't it be replicated somewhere else using retail logic? And I've used that as a marketing pitch. So, I've never advertised. I've
36:52 never done anything. But every all of my growth is organic. And I'm blessed. I'm so thankful that that so many people find what it is I do engaging and helpful. But sometimes uh I have been guilty of being a little bit um abrasive to other approaches. And sometimes I've done it to just get the the crowd riled up because that will get them talking. And that's how I've used that organic growth where I don't have to advertise. I get people talking and they get offended. They come over to my group and they say, "Well, my my method does this and my method does that." The fact that they're talking gets the conversation started and that's how I've grown. So I very I created a polarizing approach to teaching. I've
37:40 maintained a polarizing persona and it allows me to filter out the people that really want to learn because if they if they're showing up every day and they're putting their work in and they're tweeting to me or they're, you know, putting videos up using the things I've taught, they're convinced and that's who I'm talking to. That's my audience. I'm not really talking to the folks out there that don't like me or or think that what I'm talking about is contrived. That that's fine. I'm using them to help grow my channel, but I'm not affected by any of them. And so, I think that in one sentence, I teach how traders can utilize the idea of liquidity and how the markets really book price without any retail logic.
38:28 you said a so much that I wanted to comment on there and I think I'll I'll end it with that little blurb that you gave because I think that was very succinct and the best you could put that into a sentence because for all the reasons you said but encourage everybody as well and we'll link it obviously but to go visit your YouTube channel where you have a lot um before I I move on because you just started to kind of introduce the idea of your um position in the marketplace and really the brand that is ICT. Can I ask is it is one of the most interesting things uh many of the interesting things about you. What was
39:13 the birth of inner circle trading? What was the birth of ICT? the the brand name or me being ICT himself. I think the the branding the the that persona that you have that the what has become an insane brand um and such a recognizable logo and a a a three letters. Um what was the birth of that? [gasps] [sighs] I was it I was at a local park here in Maryland. It's Gunpowder State Park. I
39:58 used to go there every weekend. I would take headphones, a hammock, and I would hang it between two trees right by the ledge of the water, and I would sit there and either listen to an audio book um or I would listen to back then it was all cassette tapes, by the way, but I would uh I would be listening to something that had nothing really to do with trading and I would try to calm myself because I had anxiety a lot. And I listened to a a teaching by Larry Williams and he mentioned his he had a workshop that he did in person and he called it the inner circle workshop. So I was like that's really cool man. Inner circle that really resonates with
40:44 me like I want to be on the inner circle you know. And then when I actually got in with the inner circle and learned how these really you know these markets really book it's became obvious that you know I'm I'm inner circle trader now. So that was that was the birth of ICT. Very interesting. Along the way I feel that you have a lot of very unique phrases and concepts that you've coined that have become extremely popular. Do you have any rough estimate how many different concepts you've coined and and developed over the years? Um, I'm not quite sure. I thought I knew what you were saying, but give me an example of one of that way I know what you're asking.
41:29 So, in my opinion, and maybe I'm even wrong about this, but things like fair value gap would be something that you created. Yes. And I think that there's a litany of things that people just use and I think I before I was even introduced to you have heard so many people talk about that I didn't even know came from you but they did. Is there is it like you have like five core ideas or is it like 30 different things that you've coined over the years that people just took? I have things that my family know I've created and authored and codified. Um, I guess maybe around 20 or so that I think the public
42:16 is at least heard me mention at least once or twice, but I got about uh about 80 80 specific things that the algorithm will do that I'm not going to divulge all that stuff publicly, but uh I I believe that if a trader just picks up on one of those subtle nuances in price action like the fair value gap. Um that could be your entire core model and you don't need to do anything but that or you could do a breaker which is a simple after a stop run it returns back to a specific candle not a range or a zone but a very specific candle and then you use the same logic I mentioned earlier where you have to know where the market's likely to go. Where's the pool liquidity is going to go to. If it's not going to go to liquidity, it's going to
43:02 go to a premium inbalance, which would be equival to like a fair value. It sounds very complicated because what complicates it is the language because I wish I wish there was some book because I I've told my wife and my kids many times I was like there's a lot of times I'm thankful that I started teaching but there's a lot of times I wish I would have never started because even even when I think I'm close to ending it and I'm I'm satisfied for what I brought to the community, a new wave of people come and they show their excitement for want to learn and I'm that's infectious to me. Like I want to I want to cater to that. So it's like I I don't see me stopping until I'm dead. Okay. But I know for certain I'm
43:49 not going to release everything because the things that I'm holding back, I just don't want to do that. But the things I've taught um it's interesting to see how folks have have ran with it. And it's it's nothing short of a phenomenon that I'm impressed by it myself for sure. Do you have an idea of approximately how many people have ripped off your trainings? [laughter] Um a lot. I I know there is a large institution out there that was a multi-level marketing company that had lots of their mentors and teachers that were promoting it and they would teach verbatim
44:36 whatever I taught and they would keep the idea that it came from me away from them. So yeah, I I could sit here and namerop a lot of people, but I I get it. Okay, I get what they do. I get what they're doing and all I'm asking is listen you asked earlier in the conversation in the interview you said was there a turning point you know was it faith-based the fact that I am able to have this information that it was entrusted to me. I only ask for people to credit me because when they hear me say where I got it from, it releases all the credit to me.
45:22 Because without Christ, I would have never been able to be able to have this. And that's the reality because the way my life was laid out in and the places I ended up, the people I met, the circumstances that I was kept from falling victim to. That's that's Christ him. Like there's no way about any other way. Like I didn't earn this. I worked very hard to try to figure this stuff out and it wouldn't ever work. It was like a barrier like no you can get so far and it's no. So I understand that you know in an industry like this everybody rips off stuff all the time and it happens all the time and
46:08 I don't want the glory. I don't want the fame. I don't want the lift me up on a pedestal type thing. That's why I don't like being called the king or the goat. I can't stand that. I can't I cannot stand that. That's pride. I I'm I'm I'm not that type of person. I'm not wired that way. At 20 years old wanting a miracle mine, I was I was that guy. I wanted all that stuff. But I don't want that now. But if I could get folks to just just give the respect that it's the it's it's just the it's just the right thing because when they hear me say where I got it from, I'm putting down all of the chance for me to receive praise. I don't want that.
46:53 I'm just the vessel. I'm the instrument that is a a conduit for other people to enjoy what it is that's been gifted to me. That's all. That's all I'm asking for. I don't want to be looked up as a as a legend and all that stuff. If I help other people, wonderful. If you sell stuff that has my information in it, just say, "Hey, I was inspired by CT." That's it. That's all I'm asking. Because if they're going to look into me, they're going to say, "Oh, this guy teaches for free. Oh, and he says, you know, he honors and gives all the glory to Christ." And that's all I want. That's it's the only reason why I want it to be that way. Recently, have you been through a bit of rebranding? I noticed specifically like on your YouTube channel, it's uh your thumbnail is different. Has Was this
47:39 something calculated or was it just a decision? I have a follower on Twitter and forgive me I I I I don't right now put on the spot. I don't know what his handle is to be able to, you know, do whatever, but uh he actually created it and he took a picture that I posted of myself on my Twitter feed. He took it and did some kind of like overlays and such, which I thought was really cool looking and it had my own, you know, ICT logo in it. I said, "Wow, I'm I'm gonna just just use that. That's that's awesome." But um the logo itself, the the uh infinite dynamic fib circles that everybody knows my logo from,
48:26 it's everywhere now. Like it's everywhere and a lot of people use it for their own avatar on social media. Um some of them will impersonate me. So this way it's like, you know what? I'm gonna start putting my face with this now instead of just some, you know, abstract, you know, Fibonacci sequence of circles on a on a logo. So, it wasn't that I was really trying so much to rebrand, but I wanted to come away from the the fun I had with all the people that were taking my course material and rebranding it because I would call myself the mentor of mentors. And it was my way of like thumb in the eye, all the folks that won't give me the credit for it, but they eventually were exposed when I when I brought all my material
49:13 public. But uh yeah, that's that's pretty much you all I got to say about it. So you you briefly touched on just that I'll say iconic ICT logo that is very recognizable probably up there with like a popular brand. Uh [laughter] what was the how did you come up with that as your logo? Did you create it? Did somebody create it? Did you pay to have it created? What was the birth of and and maybe why specifically that sequence of of Fibonacci circles? There is a certain set of numbers in that logo that is uh characteristic to a lot of things I do
49:59 in my own personal algorithm. And because of that sequence and those numbers being what they are, it's it's like the science behind how I interpret price runs and it's also the science behind the aspect of time. So when I teach and I trade with elements of time and price, time being the first factor before I even consider taking a trade because there's certain times the algorithm is going to do specific things. And unless I know what that time is and I'm not going to be in front of the charts at that at that moment, then there's no trade. Price itself will behave a certain way at that specific time. And the numbers that is used for these price runs
50:44 algorithmically are actually in that logo. Very fascinating. I think the I am the mentor to your mentor was brilliant and that's very recognizable to you. Also, Ghost in the Machine. Yes. What does Ghost in the Machine mean to you? When you spend time with me and the things that I talk about and codified is the algorithm theory that most people are utilizing today, making real money with it. They will see my fingerprints all over everything that they're implementing in
51:30 their trading. When Price is delivering a specific way, you're going to think about what it is that you learn from me if you've been mentored by me. A casual reader or viewer of the of the concepts that I put on the YouTube channel, they're not going to have this experience. But the folks that are really pouring themselves in when they're watching price and it behaves exactly as I outlined exactly like it's it's to the tick exactly what they were trained to expect and see. They're going to hear in their head the things that I said at that moment about that very thing and that concept. So I'm haunting I'm haunting their their whole trade setup. I'm in there. I'm not in the room
52:17 with them, but because of their memory of what they were trained and expect in the lecturing and the long jawbon sessions that I give, they're going to hear my voice in their thoughts about what it is they're watching. So, I'm the ghost in the machine. The machine is this, your head, your brain. So, I'm the ghost that's haunting every trader that's been infected by this information I've given out. They're utilizing that. So, I'm the ghost in the machine. I love that. when you started um putting out ICT and maybe the logo and incrementing with the branding maybe even in the early years, was there ever like was this always the goal to did you have a vision that this was something you were going to take to the world? this was something that you wanted to have a a true like market share of
53:06 attention in this space or the fact that this is spread and and your your name and your method has been so widely copied and and used and the logo is so predominant everywhere. Was this at some level shocking to you or was this kind of always your plan? I'm pouring myself out this year in 2023 and my intentions are to be done this year. So I don't want to have a long run of you increasing I guess celebrity. Like I I don't want to be a
53:51 celebrity. I have a lot of folks that reach out to me on a daily basis that, you know, want me to do more than I'm already doing, build partnerships and, you know, go on lecture series and circuits and and do all kinds of things and, you know, [snorts] prop funds, you know, wanting me to train their individuals, you know, do do those types of things, you know, one-on-one. And I never really wanted to go out and become this really big thing. I've always teased and trolled when I was on Baby Pips. I said, "Look, when I start really teaching, it's going to really blow up." I knew once I showed what I'm showing now that if you want to trade and you see what I do and my students are able to do, you want to trade just like that. You want
54:36 to trade just like that. You're not distracted by indicators. You're not distracted by anything. But I am very intimidated by the number of people that follow me. Like when I do a Twitter space and I'm talking live, that's an unfiltered ICT. And you'll see in here the the bipolarism in me that will swing one way or the other. And I've always tried to filter that out in my teachings because they're they're there and I have to edit it out because I I don't want to come across, you know, imbalanced, right? So, but in the Twitter, it seems to be they like that part of me because it it makes me human. Obviously, they can see I'm I'm a real
55:22 person. I'm not AI. But I get once I end the stream and I look at how many people and who was in those streams, which is sometimes is very surprising. Um, it's a little unsettling because it's it's I'm to me I'm still that kid from Middle River, Maryland, you know, that grew up in Cardboard City. That's the name that's the neighborhood that we grew up in and it doesn't exist anymore. But it was it was just poor housing. And to see what the Lord has been able to do with my life and how far my voice has reached out and and touch other people's lives now, it's it's overwhelming. And I'm just so honored and so thankful that I've been given an opportunity to do this. But I don't want to I don't want
56:09 to become bigger than whatever I become this year. That's it. And when I'm done, I'm going to greet everybody and at the end of the year and say good luck with everything I've given you and have fun with it. So that's that's that's always really been my my aim. In fact, I wanted to stop sooner, but every time I tried to stop, a new wave of people, I mean, hundreds of thousands of con you constant emails and you phone calls, people looking up my phone number, texting me, hey, you is this ICT? Can you can you please just teach me oneonone? I'll give you $20,000 right now. You know, I mean, it's it's nuts. But I really have to stop. And this year, I'm doing everything I can to pour
56:55 myself out. and whoever doesn't get it this year just they're just going to have to study what it is I put put in in the public eye and and they'll have to get it that way. Well, that'll be a sad day for uh a lot of people in the community. I know. I would be interested as maybe one last question about just the ICT brand in general and and it was fascinating to me because I very much have not been ever interested with social media to the extent that um as I was learning and and and even through to to now I really just stay in my own lane and there's so much happening in the trading space and in general that I just don't know out and
57:42 through this type of a path. It was a very long time before I was ever introduced to you or or came across you and since I have um having that on my radar and then now just seeing all of those I guess like synchronicities of having you on my radar and seeing how many things have popped up since then. I look at it as an outsider as you have inspired something of a um I would say like a a a cult-like following of people that would it seemingly go to war for you, take a bullet for you. Um I mean it's it's it's remarkable
58:28 actually. Is that even the idea of having like a cult-like following is that um derogatory at all? Because I don't mean it that way. I mean it with like a wow factor. Um, but how when you think of how passionate um most of your community is, what what are your thoughts on that? Is it Yeah. What What are your thoughts? Well, you're you're accurate in in both senses of the of the term. It is very cultlike. Uh, I didn't set out to have a band of ready at the moment warriors that literally go and devastate anybody that would say anything negative about me or whatever I've done. Um,
59:15 a young I'm glad that it happened at this age because if it would have happened when I was 20, I would have been reckless with that. um my interpretation of what our community is like. Imagine if you will folks that have gone through their life up to a point where their own family members have counted them out. Uh they've been unsuccessful in everything they've ever tried. Uh they are in impoverished nations. um their their degrees they went to school with hasn't been fruitful for them and they've tried everything and they're at their wits end. And then you add on the
1:00:00 things that everyone around the world has been contending with for the last three years. And I'm not going to say it because you know what we're talking about here. Uh all the things that are are problematic for everyone and everything's expensive. Everything's hard to u obtain and pay for. And then you got this person that steps out there and says, "Listen, I don't want anything from you except for you to try very hard to do what is I'm going to teach you." And when they do that and they hear me and I'm talking to them, I'm trying to encourage them all the time. I absolutely want my students to succeed. I I want it many times more than they do. There's no future sales pitch on the other end of it. They see that and when they finally are able to be successful
1:00:47 and they have done it with their own efforts, they've used what they've studied and everybody else told them they're wasting their time and then when they hear and see other people talk bad about what it is that they endured and now they're finding success with certain individuals that have had war scars, okay, through life themselves, they want to represent, they want to take and say, you know what, you are not going to say that about what I've just went through and who I learned it from and I I love that, but I'm not encouraging that. And unfortunately, some of them, I mean, I've literally had people say, "Listen, I will do whatever you tell me to do." I'm like, "All I'm asking you to do is learn, bro. Settle down. It's not all that you're doing too much." Right? So, yeah, it's passion. Yes. But it is viewed many
1:01:34 times correctly though that it is not healthy. And it's not healthy in in the scope of the community because I'm not trying to be the black sheep. I am in a lot of ways, but I'm trying to just remind everybody that you might trade differently. You might be profitable. You might be doing something completely outside the things I'm talking about. And if you are, that's wonderful. Like when you were doing your live streaming, I had a you know, I was nervous and I'm not taking the trades. You're you're taking them. And I'm putting myself in the position of anyone that does that. I have a great respect for that because I can't focus. I can't have someone talking to me, asking me questions. And
1:02:20 when I'm teaching my sons, they're right next to me and they're my children. They're my flesh and blood. And I don't even permit them to even ask me anything when I'm doing it because once my concentration's broken, that's it. So your your community is very mildmannered. They know what you're going to do. They know how you're going to talk to them and they know what you're going to present. Mine is like a carnival. I'm bringing all kinds of people and it's a wide array of different types of personalities and some of them are like yours and others are like right from the streets and they they are savages and and they're ready they're ready to throw down for any reason and it makes it
1:03:07 interesting. Yes. But it's a little intimidating back to what I was saying that that's the reason why it's getting too big. I can't manage it anymore. And you it it's has honestly seeped into my personal life. Um we've had people, you know, really encroaching on our our private space and time and it's it's not something anybody should endure all because they want to you compete instead of doing whatever they want to do organically and grow their own company that way. Let's say that the day comes, maybe the end of this year potentially, you uh you tease us like a lot of famous athletes who are set on retiring and then the idea of being out of the game is just
1:03:55 too much to bear, so they come back. But let's just say there will come a day when you hang up the mouse and you walk away from the screens for from trading, from teaching, from everything. What do you want your I'll say legacy, but the impact that you've had on the the trading space, you have brought it out to the world. What do you imagine that when you when your time actually comes and you hang up the mouse that you want to be remembered for and you want people to know that the the this is what the ICT brand brought forward? This is what it was all about.
1:04:40 I don't think there hasn't been a day that's gone by since I started teaching that asked that question of myself. Like I don't know how I don't know how to answer that. Sometimes I think I know the answer and then when I say it out loud to myself it it doesn't satisfy like I don't know what the actual answer would be that would make me feel satisfied in in the scope and reach that really started me doing this. So, I'm hoping that the the folks that would be so gracious with their time to to work with the material I produced, I I hope that they would recognize the
1:05:26 fact that it took a great deal of time and sacrifice on my part to pour in this much time because my family actually didn't see me much. And for someone that doesn't have a job, you would think they should see me more often, but I'm always doing something with the community, whether it be a private group setting, publicly, Twitter, here with you, enjoying myself nonetheless, but it's always constantly, you know, I'm always ICT. I'm rarely Michael. So, I'm hoping they understand that there was a real man, a man behind all of this that was a a husband, a [clears throat] father. And I've done as much as I could have done
1:06:11 to help them. And that's why I I get upset when when a student will leave and think to themselves, it's it's scam. It's it doesn't work. when I have other people all around the world now proving with real money. There's a young man um a quarter of a million dollars last year funded accounts quarter million. I got another guy that wants me to interview him. He's taken over $300,000. You that's not minuscule. Like that's that's change your life kind of money. And they weren't mentorship students that came to me and paid. Like they went through like everybody else is going through right now. They're putting the work in. And I I that's why I ask them all the time like, "What does it feel like?" When I
1:06:58 ask a student that's finally found profitability and they're making real money, I ask them that question. Can you articulate it in words? What does it feel like for you? Because I can't articulate it in a way where it is satisfying. Like when you when you find consistency and you and you're trading your your methodology and you're firing on all cylinders and you know that you're dialed in, try right now tell me how that feels for you if I was not a trader and then understand how that would be satisfying of a explanation to someone that would be a lay audience, someone that's not a trader. Tell me how it would feels for Aaron Corbs to be dialed in, nailing it,
1:07:43 following his method, and just walking out of that week profitable, and you know damn well you did well. What? Tell me, describe it. How's it feel? I'll tell you, I feel this is a topic that there's I I'll give you what it feels like. And to your point, what it feels like, I don't know if we really have the words or I don't know if I could communicate it either because on the surface it is I'm performing at a good level. I've I'm staying disciplined. I, you know, I'm following my rules. I am performing well and that feels good. That feels there's a certain level of accomplishment tied to that. There's a certain level of um
1:08:29 of trying to think of the the word, but there's a certain level of just feeling accomplished and feeling fulfilled even at some level. But then beyond that, there's this understanding of the the unseen struggles and the hardships and the the times in the dirt to get to this moment that nobody sees. nobody knows about. And the actual feeling is so much bigger than what I can describe. And there's no way for anybody else to experience it unless they've had a similar hard journey that they've gone through they could at least relate to. That very difficult you just had trying to explain it. I understand it.
1:09:15 Everybody else that makes money understands it. Yeah. So when people that aren't making money and they see this carnival that follows ICT around and why they're so passionate, they think that's the only way they can explain the feeling they have is by going to war for me. That's why they act the way they do because they can't articulate any other way. They feel like they have arrived. They're at their feet. They're at their peak performance of their life. They're doing something that most people couldn't even imagine doing. This industry is so complex. It's hard. Not only are you trying to beat the industry standards, but you're competing again against yourself. You are such a formidable adversary. People don't even realize how hard it is to overcome ourselves in trading. And when
1:10:02 you finally get to that point where you master yourself because you're never mastering the markets. When you master yourself and you finally get yourself in that position where you know exactly why you're doing something, when you're going to do it, how you're going to do it, and defeat ain't even part of the equation, like you know that you're going to be you're going to be successful. Once you finally reach that peak performance level, you're dialed in. There's nothing taking you out of that. No one can convince you that you aren't exactly where you're supposed to be at. So that's the reason why it's hard to ar You can't explain to someone. You can't explain to a lamb, to a sheep,
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