My First Time at a Kenneth Copeland Conference.

0:00 are you mad at me about that I don't know what this means but I like it when you've got God thoughts that's where the Earth came from that's where everything came from you've got his thought are you preaching that American Prosperity Gospel he said no Jesus was not born in America what do Prosperity teachings Jesse duplant is telling us how much money he had random people falling asleep in their chairs loads of chirping crickets and a woman telling me off all have in common my trip to the Kenneth Copeland Southwest Believers

0:46 convention yes I willingly went to the Kenneth copelan Southwest Believers convention it was in August of this year 2024 in Fort Worth Texas now you can skip ahead to the timestamp below if you would like to skip this introduction but before I get into the details of this visit if you've noticed it's been a few months since I've been to the convention until the time that I've actually made this video and there's a reason for that now I like to thoughtfully reflect when putting together videos like this because there can be a Temptation on YouTube to make videos that are sensationalized for clicks and I just simply don't want want to do that I really care about the quality of these

1:32 types of videos and I just don't want this to be another Kenneth Copeland exposed kind of video there are plenty of those but honestly can there really be too many videos exposing Kenneth Copeland probably not I really don't think there can be too many of those types of videos on Prosperity teachers in general but I think sometimes people get like an exposed hangover from those types of videos and sometimes it can make us a little cynical so my aim is to strive to bring you something different because this is more than just going to a Kenneth Copeland conference and telling you guys about it this is about something bigger this is about the teachings of Kenneth Copeland and the movement that he is known for and why they are completely unbiblical and even

2:18 dangerous teachings but also if we zoom out even more from just him we will find that he's just one face of a larger movement that I think is so important for Christians to know about this is the word of faith movement and I believe that if Christians can spot the teachings within this movement they'll be able to discern the teachers no matter who they are now I sort of did this with a video I did on Katherine Crick a while ago because this movement is bigger than them all but there's a reason why if you discuss One Word of Faith preacher you're kind of discussing them all because of the common denominator of the beliefs that they have within the word of faith movement so I had to decide how I wanted to go

3:04 about putting together this video and honestly I had total paralysis analysis with it I didn't know how to do this video my options were one do a total Deep dive on Word of Faith and prosperity teachings and connect it with Copeland and other teachers or two do a video on my visit specifically and cover it from a personal angle the third option was to do both I wanted to go with option three but each time I tried to structure it it would end up detracting from either the topic or the visit or the movement so what I decided to do is keep the topics separate so this video is basically option number two which is based specifically on my visit to the conference and then I'll do

3:51 a separate video perhaps a deep dive on the word of faith movement specifically now one of the only people that I know that goes to these conferen regularly is Justin Peters he's done in my opinion a really great analysis of the conference from this year and he highlights some of the really strange things that Kenneth copelan has done and said at this year's conference you think that one's pretty it's a bright Ling it has diamonds around the edge someone gave me that one he said I'm giving you my Bentley it has a brightling clock who I will leave a link to that in the description if you want to check it out because it's really something let me tell you now let's start with the first day I was there I have this notebook that I carry with me when I do any sort of visit like this

4:37 interviews for my book I have recorded in here uh notes for church as well and I recorded my visit in here oh shout out to sces I will be referring to the notes that I have in here to share with you for this video so I traveled on a Thursday and I ended up going to the conference the first day on Friday August 2nd now this is a onewe conference that goes every day all day and to be perfectly honest that sounds completely exhausting there's no way I would have gone every day for a week so I decided to go on that Friday and Saturday towards the end of the conference the convention itself was at the Fort Worth Convention Center and holy smokes you guys getting to the convention center was a total trip

5:24 Dallas your roads are ridiculous it's like I'm pretty sure that the Engineers of these roads just sat a toddler down at a table with a piece of paper and handed him a crayon and just let him scribble all over the paper and thought wow that looks like a great blueprint for a road design and you know what's even a better idea let's charge them if they want to avoid driving on this hot mess that'll really mess up the non-locals and oh my friends it did it messed me up good behind the scenes they probably don't even call them roads they call them row ads anyways after normalizing my blood pressure I arrived during the second half of the conference I was a little

6:10 confused though because I didn't realize that it was break time I was genuinely hoping that the conference was actually this empty when I arrived but when I realized it wasn't I started to explore and and guys this convention center is enormous at Le at least I think so anyways there's this merchandise room in the back that I went into and I started looking around and one thing that I was really surprised to find was that they had the Copeland station wagon when they first started out in Ministry on display personally I thought this was weird because there was quite a few people that were kind of surrounding it that were oooing and awing at this car I didn't quite understand exactly what I

6:56 was looking at first or even why it was there and I noticed there was this woman staring at it so I asked her what it was and honestly guys she was so nice she was so kind she's just sitting there chatting with me and told me that it's a display of how far the copelin have come with humble beginnings to where they are now and it is a testament to how everybody can get to where they're at with their prosperous lifestyle that it's a testament to God or something really this woman I I just wanted to be her best friend I she was one of the sweetest women I've ever met but I could tell that she really held the Copelands in high esteem I kept walking and there was one particular set of merchandise that caught my eye and it was the

7:42 merchandise for Jerry sevel in fact I took a photo of one of the backs of the books there that I'm going to read to you all right it says we all have expectations based on the promises and God's word but how do we achieve these expectations god-given expectations are rooted and grounded in the word of God and establish on a foundation of Faith remember in the Prosperity Gospel Faith equals power expect to walk in health and wholeness prosper in everything you do be blessed in every area of Our Lives allow God's favor to manifest in this three-part easyto read book Dr Jerry svel reveals how to move toward the manifestation of our god-given expectations stay in faith remember or remain focused on God's promises don't be troubled by the world's distraction

8:30 what are your highest expectations the Bible makes this promise all the best from our God and Christ be yours God's best is already yours your expectations will surely come that sounds like a new thought book and then I found a shirt right next to it with affirmations I am progressing advancing experiencing promotion and seeing my highest expectations fulfilled you can start to see why I just wanted to go and derail into Word of Faith teachings because everything I just read to you I could pull back to a new thought teaching this is very typical of a Prosperity Gospel message and just a is a taste of what you get

9:17 from the platform so this shirt I mean you have affirmations and you thought there's something called affirmative prayer or affirmations and this type of I am Prayer Will always be very strange to my ears because that is how you pray in new thought but again new thought looks Christian so it's postured as a Christian way to pray you pray the I am in the now and declare what you want to materialize in your life because it's your Birthright as a co-creator with God I first and foremost understand this as a new thought belief so to see it carried over into these space is is a huge red flag to me so after

10:04 this I make a mistake because I'm walking around I'm feeling the place out and I realize wow everybody everybody has a lanyard and a badge and there's this big sign that's saying hey sign in here and I'm like oh well maybe that's where I go to get my my lanyard and so I go and I get my lanyard and she has me fill out my information because now you guys they won't quit sending me things I mean I have Victory magazines and I have to look at Kenneth Copeland's face staring at me with his Beady blue eyes but honestly guys I mean I'm not the only one that collects this kind of stuff to look into the ministry of Kenneth Copeland and what they're saying and what they're teaching it's a great way

10:50 to steal man an argument to understand the position of the Prosperity Gospel and the teachers and leaders first and then you dismantle it so I actually look at this stuff as Ministry tools heavily photoshopped Ministry tools you know and something else that's really interesting is that reading this material a lot of other people don't understand what word of faith is and think that people like me are just calling them Word of Faith teachers but no this is actually something they call themselves they that they are Word of Faith and it's in their own writing so just food for thought they have my address now and you know what that's

11:37 okay it's all right so after my mistake I'm walking around just feeling out the place and I go and I find a chair up high far away because that's that's what I do in these scenarios I like to sit in the back so I'm just kind of waiting for the next session to start and the next speaker to go on who is this guy named Keith Moore who I've seen before but I've never heard him speak before I'll get into some specifics of what he talks about with the notes that I took in just a second but I want to go over some common patterns that I saw with every single speaker that came up so I don't have to repeat it every time the first thing was the audience expectations something really interesting about the environment at this event which is honestly one reason why I like visiting

12:23 is that there's almost this expectation to get hyped up like throughout the cont confence there's always a time when the Speaker gets really excited to yell the message at you no wonder no wonder no wonder no wonder and if you're not getting hyped then you're doing it wrong it's really strange because they kind of sort of backhandedly scold people for it they they want you to have a lot of pomp but something always feels off about this even in other churches not just at this conference the pomp is important and it's convincing which it's important because that's what convinces people not necessarily the theological depth and tress of the message what it reminds me of is a time when me and my family we

13:09 took a trip to California and we got to be a part of the audience of America's Got Talent apparently it's really easy to be a part of a studio audience in California and uh my husband is definitely one of those people that will want to do exciting things like that I'm I'm really boring you guys so of course I have to go support him or something so we all go in there and I was just floored with how much attention was being paid to where the most exciting people will sit they're constantly moving people around based on what will look good for the cameras we switched seats about three times in the front and in the back and then back in the front and then it was really annoying like this one guy his only job was to Hype people

13:57 up he's like just yell a lot and get really excited and it's good for TV that's why there's a lot of importance placed on it now to be clear I am not saying it's exactly like this at the Kenneth Copeland conference but that is the feeling I got from this whole environment is that it's a spiritual thing it's important to get hyped up now something else that was absolutely hilarious during the entire during the entire conference that I was so confused about was that uh the Fort Worth con vention Center has a cricket problem everywhere you look there are crickets either they're dead or alive but they are there but the most hilarious part was that it sounded like it was just midnight in there at

14:44 all times because the Crickets kept chirping throughout the entire conference what made it even more funny was that was when the speakers were trying to get people hyped up and they paused for it and all and all you hear are literally crickets the son of David and I just sat all the way in the back as far away as I could to get a good feel for everything and have a good view and I just thought it was so interesting to be that far back and hear the cricket so well and not have to be required to be somebody in the front they're all hyped up there in the front but you hear the Crickets and it's almost like it takes away all the Pomp and the second thing about this is that more than once there were so many people

15:32 that fell asleep at this conference and I'm not talking about older people who might get tired I mean that's a long day to be there but no I'm talking about young middle-aged or younger men and women who are just there in the chairs and completely zoned out there was this one guy that was slumped forward and slept and slept through the entire Keith Moore and Jesse Duplantis talk it was glorious ious on the second day I was there I sat in a different spot in the back and there was another guy sitting further down the the row from me and straight up just brought a blanket put his hat over his head and slept through the and he slept through the entire first half of the Kenneth Copeland

16:19 conference everybody's just up and dancing and jumping all around and he's just completely out and loving it and honestly the worship they had was really good good it was really well done really well produced and it sounded really good and the songs were catchy so just imagine it for a second okay paint this picture in your head you have a hyped up Prosperity preacher that needs you to get hyped up they're getting into it saying I can't hear you Hallelujah in jesus' name in Jesus name in Jesus namej Hallelujah and in between the silence you hear these loud crickets listen to me in and dispersed throughout the ENT the

17:04 entire Center are people that are literally falling asleep this was the real entertainment for me and the kind of stuff that they don't show you on camera second the supernatural it didn't matter who was talking there was always great emphasis placed on signs wonders Miracles health and prosperity and a lot of Storytelling I noticed that Jesse Duplantis and Kenneth Copeland do this a lot it's like I don't even know if they have a real message planned out when they come out I think that they've just done this for so long that they they come out and they have a general idea of what they're going to talk about and quote some scriptures but many times they kind of just derail into some sort of story and

17:50 oh you guys the stories there is this overemphasis on telling Grand narratives about health and wealth but it seems really random especially from Copeland it's like he's the prosperity preacher version of like a share horowits it does not say RSVP on the Statue of Liberty he's like the kid who did not do his homework so he has to get up and speak about a topic that he didn't study for if she doesn't do the assignment I can't do mine so to fill the time they tell stories and I actually don't always think telling stories is bad stories can be very helpful to display a point and bring the listener into what you're trying to teach I do also want to say that there were actually some very good

18:37 things said in these messages okay like Keith Moore for example very good speaker and said some really good things in my opinion Jesse Duplantis he's kind of adorable and has a great personality and he's funny some things all these speakers said were even biblical and helpful but it kind of just stays on the surface never going deeper there's never really any meaty topics that they talk about and just stay in the realm of signs wonders Miracles health and prosperity and telling stories about them third is the scolding for questions no matter who the speaker was there was a pattern of chiding people for questioning whether they got their healing or not or if teaching Prosperity

19:24 is heretical like the station wagon this will always and forever be strange to me I mean think of a general sermon from your average Pastor they don't do this on a regular basis they don't even have to address this in every single talk they make about people who criticize their teachings it's like they have to continually remind the audience that people like me are the unspiritual religious bad guys like if you're questioning why someone didn't get healed you're accused of having a critical spirit you're judgmental just trying to find fault and So to avoid being seen like that I can see why people avoid even wanting to ask critical thinking questions and fear that they will be labeled that way Keith

20:10 Moore for example he compared this to the Pharisees jumping on Jesus for healing on the Sabbath day some of them you know tried to throw a mic in his face and says well what if you pray for them and they don't get healed he said well they're no worse the hospital's full of people the doctors tried to help and died we're trying to help people you know some folks all they know how to do is criticize and judge fine fault not helping anybody it's like the Pharisees you know jumping on Jesus for healing on the Sabbath day when was their healing day yeah they don't know how to get people healed but they know what's wrong with his ministry those folks are still with us today not the same thing for those who may not be familiar with the word of faith movement this is actually a normal thing within the movement you don't

20:57 question the teacher or the teachings or you will be labeled as a Pharisee or having a religious spirit even if you're coming in in pure spirits and all you're trying to do is simply ask some critical questions about what they're doing and teaching I believe it's this point that explains everything else about how and why they get away with what they get away with and why people very much convince themselves that everything these teachers are saying is true this and also the hunger for Spiritual power like Signs wonders and Miracles but also the belief that they are redeemed from the curse of sickness and poverty this means that you kind of force yourself to stay in a certain mindset so that you don't question these things the fourth thing is the tithing the conference is

21:43 advertised as free which is actually really nice I enjoyed not having to pay anything to Kenneth Copeland but throughout the entire conference they were very sure to make regular announcements about how to give and again there's nothing wrong with that but when you're at a Prosperity preachers event your tithe is not just a tithe according to Kenneth Copeland it's a way for you to grow your own bank account let's receive our evening offering please you really can do better than that they give you a chance to raise your income [Applause]

22:30 when you sew a seed to Kenneth Copeland Ministries God will bless you for it financially giving means you get a reward and giving means that you are obeying the Lord doing otherwise means that you're not doing the Lord's will genuinely in that environment I felt how somebody would feel guilty if they didn't give based on the tone of these offerings now based on number three I am very sure that people give a lot of money and don't really think about how they're not getting too much back in return so those are the four constant things that I saw in every single talk with that let's talk about the first

23:15 Speaker I saw Keith Moore I am not going to break down each one of the speakers messages but I am going to give some highlights and things that I noticed about each that I thought was interesting so with Keith Moore he's starting talking about Matthew 11:28 about when Jesus is saying come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest and Keith is talking about how Jesus's yoke is light and that anything you feel that's heavy well that's not of God look over here see who you're with and then you'll say I can do all things through the anointed one who is not only

24:01 in me and with me but on me Hallelujah and not just suffer through it we can sail through it so that it feels like a what my yoke is easy easy and so that the load FS light now when something feels so hard and so tough and so unbearably heavy that's an indication that it's not something you're yolked with the master on but his yoke is easy well I everybody likes easy if it's not light and easy it's not his yoke some of the things he's saying here are biblical there were things he said that I did

24:47 agree with so giving him the benefit of the doubt on what he means by that he could just simply mean that the implication of the verse is saying that there should be a sense of lightness when you follow Jesus and are yolked to him spiritually that's fair on the other hand it seemed like he was making it sound like if there's anything in your life that's too overwhelming for you to handle it all then it can't be of God In The Word of Faith movement the idea is that you are to be supernaturally powerful and freed from these curses that are supposedly placed on you from the devil so if you're supposed to be rich and healthy the opposite is a high burden that can't

25:33 possibly come from God because God would never want you to be poor or sick now if I'm thinking through logically what I like to do with teachings like this is carry them out to their logical conclusion what are the implications of what he's saying if it's not true because then it becomes really irresponsible to say this and can lead people down a pretty dark path whenever they do have trials and tribulations I mean this is basic James chap 1 verse two stuff count it all joy when various Trials come your way because it tests your faith and it basically makes you more resilient I'm paraphrasing but that's the opposite of what Keith is saying here now there is

26:18 one thing that he focused in on more that a lot of other Prosperity teachers do which is telling you how to think every thought that contradicts what God Said you and I need to be aggressive about dealing with that thing have we been responsible enough with our thought life and what about the Lord Jo yoken and is load light and easy sir and it has to do with thoughts God's thoughts and the enemy's thoughts are are the difference between life and death this can get really tricky because they'll talk about not

27:04 being carnally minded and not being controlled by your emotions but then there's this weird sort of like bait and twist on this whole thing where they'll say out of one side of their mouth yeah you shouldn't be led by emotions yeah you shouldn't be carnally minded but out of the other side of their mouth the implication is the opposite and I always want to be really careful here because there are some things that these teachers say that are good and fine and I absolutely believe that it is biblical that we do need to control what we're thinking about there is a space for that there are all kinds of biblical scriptures about being wise about our headspace and to be able to practice thinking well but

27:49 that's not what they're teaching entirely it's more than that they don't teach you to practice thinking well they don't teach you to practice critically thinking they're just telling you what not to think about there's some bad thoughts out there trying to get in where did this thought come from who said this thought who is I don't know this thought who is this thought look look number one on the list number one on the list whatever things are true whatever things are honest if it's not honest I can't think on that uh-uh and whatever things are just say that's fair if you go preacher it

28:36 bothers me when I think about that don't think about that some of that a lot of it actually is about anything that makes you doubt so in a lot of ways critical thinking is seen as negative thinking so you default to this mind space that is positive but it can be a toxic positivity so in essence it's not they're not teaching you to Grapple with things and think about them with discernment but they teach that these thoughts that are coming into your mind are demonic I said the devil cannot he can't hurt you he can't scare you he can't bother you with a

29:22 thought you won't think if you're thinking that what the preacher is saying isn't true that's Satan don't don't entertain that thought you've been praying for a healing for so long maybe scripture says something else about nope mm- that's a demon don't think like that so that's where it gets a little tricky because they're talking about more than just being responsible with your thinking and emotions and again another tricky aspect to this is that yeah spiritual warfare is a thing I mean we can have thoughts that might be part of spiritual warfare but I think it's really interesting because I do not think that it's a coincidence that those Christians that are the most mentally and emotionally stable handle spiritual

30:10 warfare the best I think that has a lot to do with their prayer life but also the practice they've had about being resilient about how to think things through and control their feelings and emotions when these things come up they lay it down at God's feet and they work through it with prayer Bible study discernment discipleship being held accountable that and not everything is the devil's fault sometimes life happens and it's our reaction to those things that can produce faithfulness to God now there's so much more I could say about that topic and his sermon we are the sons of God first John says and but it does not yet appear what what we are what we shall be but when we see him we're going to be so happy and so

30:56 pleased we will be like him we'll look at him in his glory and we'll go Oh Glory to hold on now H like him like him like him when you've got God thoughts that's where the Earth came from that's where everything came from you've got his thought but let's move on to the most memorable speaker at least to me Jesse Duplantis how many of y'all tired well let's go home let's get out he actually didn't stay on stage very long at all maybe 30 minutes and out of all the speakers I heard it was his that I remembered the most because he was the

31:42 one who talked the most about his money and his wealth one I was in a jewelry store and her thought was so strong this ring is talking to me I said well answer it I thought that was funny $65,000 later was not funny they said I've never seen a Christian like you I said there's not many like me I don't mean that priv don't take it like that now I don't mean to sound arrogant I get attention everywhere I go now the really wealthy people like me I'm not talking about somebody got a little money you know with their nose up in the air I'm talking somebody with some money I'm talking about really wealthy I'm talking about the super rich I'm not talking about just a little Rich I'm talking super rich and and you can actually get

32:28 them saved because see they've got everything that you can possibly imagine or think but they don't have God there's an emptiness there and you know what they love about me my smile they've even asked me is that your real teeth we stick your F in my mouth and I'll bite it and I'll show you what and they think that's funny just like but not only this he was the one who talked the most about why people shouldn't criticize his money and wealth and definitely told a lot of stories in that short amount of time so what happens is people begin to preach their doctrines and if you don't necessarily believe their doctrines uh they call you a heretic cuz we believe in prosperity yet everybody wants the money we have right come on now if we're bad then why do you

33:15 want my money but evidently they thought my money was very good and I believe in 100-fold ladies and gentlemen you know why I believe in 100 I need it I'm totally different than most Word of Faith people so I looked at as I pass I got about as close for me to mark I said said Do You Believe In The 100 fool she goes no everybody got quiet I said you're not ready for me and I walked off and there are a lot of people in the word of faith movement they're not ready for Kenneth they're not ready for me they're not ready for Keith and now this is going to sound arrogant but it's true I said I'm at a level that you don't understand and you got money I'm not concerned about how much something cost oh I can't do that see now you just lied to yourself you you believe the Christian propaganda when God said you can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth you that's what he said well if he be as

34:02 well that's another little dog going that's the church saying that yes he said what things soever you desire he didn't say he desire he said you desire When you pray believe that you receive not when you see it not when you get it but when you pray copel I hate poverty I hate this poverty and I became very wealthy and when my mom passed away and my dad her home she never had to worry about a thing because it was all paid for now you mad at me about [Laughter] that that angers me you don't know what I've been through now I don't know what this means but I like it he also had the most personality out of all of them in my opinion and what I mean by that is

34:50 that he has a very extroverted personality and can be very funny now to sum up his talk here um I'm just going to read here from the notes I took of the pattern of a Jesse Duplantis talk tells a story talks about a Bible verse tells a story tells a story talks about a Bible verse tells a story tells a story goes into another story drops a Bible verse then I wrote here like like preacher ADHD then I wrote this is basic basically a look how awesome I am seron I'm different I'm light I'm rich I have lots of wealth I mean it's ironic the

35:36 way to become rich is to try to teach others how to become rich from that short talk I basically got that he's Word of Faith and Rich and and people just need to deal with it now I have an interesting thought about his comments about how critics will criticize his Prosperity but when he comes to them to try to give them money that suddenly they're they're open arms and ready to accept this but if I went to your church and say you you call me all kind of trash but I said I came here to give you $5 million oh than thank you Jesus wait what happened what happened here so he's basically trying to frame himself as some sort of nice guy who

36:22 just takes his money and is trying to give it away to people so here's what he say he's saying I want to take my riches in my prosperity and give it to others especially other churches and preachers and I have a thought about this now just let me read to you the notes that I took about this while my brain was braining about it duplis just told a story about how rich he and other pastors are and how people are so critical of this he says that the pastors condemn him as he goes to their church but when he says hey you know what hold on I'm here to give you a million bucks then all of a sudden these

37:09 pastors tune they change this is interesting he thinks he's making a slam dunk Point here but this shows the power of money to persuade and compromise he can buy you when he or any other Prosperity teacher gives you money under the guise of it being a blessing from God then they own you then I drew a little cycle chart step one the lay person gives money or sews a seed to the preacher step two that preacher spends it on whatever including giving that money to

37:56 other churches and and pastors forming an alliance with them step three those churches and pastors that now have that Alliance so a seed to the prosperity preacher because they received a blessing from God they're going to sew more seed to that preacher in order to receive the blessing back it's a cycle what's further interesting you can have something called bread crumming where you continue to leave little blessings to people to keep them in line and to keep them giving to you it's like funding an operation that you created and that operation is now sympathetic to you so hopefully that cycle makes sense

38:43 and I can see exactly why there's an appeal for a Prosperity preacher to go give to other churches cuz it makes them look really good it makes it look like they're doing something virtuous but in reality I see how that could come back to bless them ultimately not necessarily the church and then furthermore think about the other implication here if somebody like Kenneth copelan or Jesse Duplantis goes and saves a church that is in financial trouble don't you think that they then would be having a really hard time calling out their theology I will forever be grateful to Kenneth Copeland he came in and saved us what a good guy what a nice guy what a

39:30 wonderful thing that he did there's no way I can say anything bad about him it's brilliant so moving on I could probably say a lot more about Keith Moore and Jesse Duplantis but after Jesse went up it was break time before the next session and this is when one of the craziest things happened during this entire trip when I had the most strange conversation with a woman at the this conference it all started when I was minding my beeswax just simply taking a walk outside I was actually waiting uh for a zoom call from my daughter so I was just outside trying to have some privacy so I could have the zoom call I had my sunglasses on which is relevant

40:16 because as I'm just hanging out there there was this very beautiful an apparently extraordinarily extroverted woman who was standing by the bushes outside and she saw me we met eyes let's call her Deborah Debbie literally comes up to me like she's my bestie like she's known me for years and says something about how she has the same sunglasses as me or or something like that something about my sunglasses and went into this whole story about her sunglasses and I honestly thought she mistook me for someone else because that's how casual she was like she was just coming up to me talking with me like we had talked on

41:02 the phone every day since we were 13 or something so that should give you an idea of how very friendly and talkative this woman was and indeed she was Debbie was quite Pleasant and very likable we chatted here and there made some small talk about the weather I guess that's what besties do now I talked about where I was from and then there was a turning point in the conversation when she asked me why I was there so thinking that it would spark a really good conversation because that's usually what happens is hey I'm here I don't necessarily agree and then you get into some you can get into some really good conversations with people based on that so I just straight up told her that I was there for research reasons I told

41:47 her my background my spiritual background and she sat there and listened very intently until I got to the part where I said that I didn't agree with Kenneth Copeland or the word of faith movement it was like that kind talkative new bestie that I had just made turned into the Kenneth Copeland gatekeeper and Defender her entire demeanor changed and she got very aggressive I tried to explain to her why I didn't biblically agree and she straight up almost started yelling at me that everything that Kenneth Copeland teaches is right here in the Bible right here she'd say so then I would counter with a disagreement with for example health where Paul got sick and how the disciples were not always healed and didn't always heal and how Jesus didn't

42:34 always heal and their goal was the Gospel and that the belief that health and wealth are always guaranteed are unique to the prosperity preachers not the Bible but even as I was trying to say this she was Raising her voice a little bit asking me to show me where it is in the Bible and it's got to be in the Bible and you guys this is probably one of the best examples I can give anybody to show you what a steamroller sounds like my good friend Greg cokle in his book tactics talks about these types of conversations so it was very difficult for me to get anything in where she would actually listen to what I had to say in my experience Steamrollers are not there to listen

43:22 they are there to set the record straight and I had just made a claim about her beloved teacher teacher Kenneth Copeland told her that she could very easily look these things up if she chose to want to know but she got very argumentative so Debs started opening up her phone to show me scripture and and I told her I'm a Christian I agree with these scriptures but Prosperity preachers redefined a lot of it and she did not understand and honestly she did not want to see my point of view her response was very interesting and almost exactly how a Jehovah's Witness would have responded to me she said and I'm quoting here everything they teach I see it here in scripture it's right here

44:08 there is no divorcing the prosperity preachers interpretation of what certain scriptures mean it's defined through their lens not by just letting scripture be scripture personally this was one of the biggest problems I had when I came out of new thought teachings because all of those misused scriptures that I had learned from new thought about health and wealth and power in our words and much more I now had to learn those scriptures that were taken out of context in their proper context I had to unlearn what I had been taught about it and relearn what the true interpretation was that was difficult so of course they're going to say it's in the Bible or something a Mormon would say

44:54 the same thing so did I so did a Jehovah's Witness and this is one of the dirtiest things that the devil does is that he uses scripture and then he distorts it so basically anything I was trying to do with this woman when it came to having a civil discussion was in vain because she was being argumentative and talked over me no matter what I said so it's at this point that I want to say that I was very observant of her reaction but I didn't get upset with her it's not like we were sitting there yelling at each other or something but she was uh scolding me that's probably the best way I can explain it but I don't know Debbie and frankly her reaction is a little over the top so very gently I want to explain to everyone what you do when you're dealing with a steamroller first of all keep

45:41 your head don't stoop to that level I understand that this takes some sort of emotional toll but with enough practice I promise you you can keep your cool second what I do when I'm dealing with a steamroller is one of two things things one you have to know when to walk away but before I do that there is one thing that I try to do which is I politely tell them that they have interrupted me constantly and if they'd like to hear what I have to say I will continue but if they don't want to hear what I have to say then I move on so I told her that and I did have a time crunch because I was expecting this call in a few minutes and if she would like to have some meaningful dialogue then I would like to do that with her it was at this point that she calmed down a lot but she

46:28 actually didn't want to hear what I had to say still surprisingly we did leave on good terms even if it was a little tense and I learned something that day I learned that it is people like Debbie that keep Prosperity preachers rich I went ahead and I got on my call and I didn't see her again for the rest of the conference so whoever this woman Debbie was can you guys just keep her in your prayers I don't think that she approached me by accident and every single time I put on my cheap Walmart sunglasses I think of her and I say a little prayer after this I went back into the session where Terry Copeland was giving a very animated prayer for Kenneth Copeland and it wasn't just her

47:14 it was the whole bottom area of course they were speaking in tongues and and praying for him I'm listening to this prayer and what she's praying about and it made me think of something Kenneth Copeland is not looking very good he can't stand for very long and he doesn't look comfortable when he's walking this is just a total guess and I could be wrong but I believe that Kenneth Copeland is sick and I believe Gloria Copeland is sicker this is total speculation um just to be clear and something that Kenneth Copeland would outright deny even later on when he got on to talk he affirms that he is extremely healthy but you're supposed to to do that even when you're not in the word of faith movement not only this

48:01 when it came to these announcements and these prayers it was really interesting to me how much they brought up how others criticize the Copeland like how can you criticize such a great man such a great family who's done so many great things and is such a spiritually anointed leader and blah blah blah and I just find it so obvious that they want to remind everybody who Kenneth Copeland is and that he can do no wrong and Debbie was a victim of this constant reminder it's like they want people to be their Gatekeepers to critics so they don't have to deal with it after this they had some worship and say what you will about charismatics but they get down on their worship I genuinely enjoyed watching them

48:47 worship after worship Kenneth Copeland came out and it was the most random entrance ever it was very awkward vote now look there's no way that I could stand on this plank of the platform without standing on this whole stage

49:35 I command you vote and if you've ever listened to a Kenneth Copeland message he'll say a sentence and then there's this really long pause afterwards after almost everything he says but the Lord will get it for me you boys come back to see me made another date she went through the same

50:23 drill but as I mentioned before the feel I got he's coming out he's coming out to preach at the podium and he just he's not prepared so okay he's just coming out and saying stuff and goes with it but he comes out and the first thing he says is vote and I wouldn't even say he's talking about it I should say he's scolding people if they don't vote then he was talking about how much money they raised and how rich and blessed he is and we are over the budget

51:09 1,136 [Applause] 399 oh and somebody said are you preaching that American Prosperity Gospel he said no Jesus was not born in America and the first thing somebody says a prosperity to think about money wait a minute and I've been accused of that he is Extreme I am I'm extremely blessed I'm extremely healthy

51:59 and and guys people clap for this they clap because it's part of the worldview that's behind the Prosperity Gospel it's good that Kenneth Copeland is blessed in their eyes because he's the example of what it's like to live in prosperity and health now um with the Kenneth Copeland sermon what you're going to get is a lot of stories unrelated to Salvation that's simply the way that I'm going to summarize the sermon that he gave it's preacher ADHD he'll just be in the middle of quoting a scripture and then he'll go into this really random story that's completely unrelated and I've noticed that he's gotten worse over the years it makes me worry for his health honestly because I'm sure that everybody's going to ignore if he's sick but it does make me wonder about his

52:44 cognitive Health in his stories he'll he'll talk about people that have taught him so much where he's been what he's gotten how rich he is how long he's gone Gone without being sick then he'll throw in a Bible verse here and there but like I said it's like he's the student that did not study for the test and it's just very awkward for me to watch Kenneth Copeland speak the secondhand embarrassment is just real I did not stay the whole time for the session because I didn't want to deal with oneway streets and a driving garage and Fort Worth highways it was getting dark and I didn't want to deal with rush hour so I left early I came back the next day on Saturday though which was Saturday August 3rd now what I really wanted to

53:32 see on Saturday was something that they called healing school this is when the anointing comes and a lot of people will receive their healing and I asked one of the women uh working there what this looks like and she said that it's amazing it's fabulous it's a time where people go and receive their healing brother copelan is so anointed and yeah it was supposed to start at 9:30 in the morning uh but it's 11:15 here and I started wondering when this was going to happen I was under the impression that this was going to be an event that they would have for majority of the first half of the day but that is not what happened at all it was like they were trying to put it off that's the impression I got it wasn't until around

54:17 12:00 by the time the first session was even over that they finally started doing anything with healing and again a lot of that time was just filler where he was telling a lot of random stories in between some Bible verses and then they squeezed in this little tiny part at the end to hear people who claimed that they had gotten healed during the conference things like this are incredibly unconvincing to me and some of it's just hard to hear because they'll bring out young children to talk about healings that they have received and some of that is emotional healing and they'll tell stories that are heartbreaking and I fully believe that God can and does heal in this way physically

55:02 emotionally and mentally I am definitely a testimony of that that's my salvation story I was in a deeply dark depressed and suicidal State of Mind one day and then I woke up the next day a born- again Christian I was literally a different person so I believe God can do that and he does do that but the way in which these conferences frame some of these stories it's like there's more of a priority for an emotional pool than a thoughtful biblical perspective and what's Difficult about this is that it really does set the Christian up for failure in the long term the other aspect for this that might be a difficult topic for Christians to talk about is again coming from a new thought background you hear stories about how

55:48 people healed themselves through their right thinking that are not saved so I have books new thought books about people telling their testimonies telling their stories of their miraculous healing who are not Christians we have to ask ourselves a hard question here at what point does the story stop and scripture start okay because a story can only take you so long I believe testimony can be very powerful but not every testimon is true and we have a medium in which to test these things that God gave us which is scripture so

56:35 needless to say I was very underwhelmed with that particular day of healing I remember asking one of the women though because Kenneth Copeland he's looking tired all right he's he's up there and he goes all day he's talking for quite a while and the woman was trying to say that it's a supernatural anointing that he has that everything that he does you know the color even the color of his hair is supernaturally Anointed and so I began to speak to my hair it started turning gray so I'm going to talk to my hair I started talking to it and it it started becoming gray all around and I I said no no no no no no no no no I'm not having that stand there in the in the mirror and look at it and say gray hair

57:22 [Laughter] bye and gone his energy levels all these things and I just wasn't buying it that man's tired he needs a nap let him go take a nap I didn't stay for the whole day cuz I had to get back to the hotel and pack and eat but that was my experience at a Kenneth Copeland conference I could have gotten into a lot more detail about each one of these messages that these preachers were giving because oh my there's a lot more but I really want to save the details of those messages uh for when I do a deep dive on the topic because I think that will be a lot more effective in what this movement really is and what the

58:08 core issues are like how the word of faith movement even became what it was and why we should care about that as always there's a lot more resources in the description of this video for you to check out and whether you agree or disagree with this video video let me know your thoughts in the comments below