New Epstein Files Reveal Pathetic Depths of America’s Elites | The Next Level

0:00 Do people not have jobs and families? Like, I don't have time to to read a book, let alone send a 5,000 different emails to 150 different people a day along with text messages and then sexually harass. Like, it's just nobody has to make dinner for their kids. >> Thing that's the limiting factor for you. >> Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bullwark. Guys, if you slept on the Minneapolis live show last week, uh it sold out very quickly and uh we're sorry about that, but we're adding another show. So, we're going to do a second night in Minneapolis. The tickets will go on sale Wednesday, I believe. Go to the

0:46 bullwark.com/events. Um maybe set yourself an alarm. I think they're going to go on sale at noon Eastern time. Like, they did fully sell out in like 5 hours last time. So come and join us, >> which we love. >> Love it. It's a lot of people outside of Minneapolis. Also wanted to go and support the community. It's awesome. You know, >> it's great. And uh you know, all profits from this going to uh Harvest Heartland. Fantastic local charity to help all the people in Minneapolis who uh are suffering with food insecurity. >> And we can't wait. We're super excited to be there and be with you guys. That's why we added a second night. We didn't want to miss it. >> I mean, I wish it was July if I'm being honest, but you know, this isn't all about me. I don't think, you know, it's kind of about the >> interactions of the people in the community. I know. I know you want to make it about me as much as possible, but I I do think it's about the people

1:33 that are putting their bodies on the line out in the streets and so I can I can suffer the walk from the hotel to the Uber in and whatever -32 or whatever it is in Minneapolis in February. >> Okay. Since we were last, >> but come everyone else come join us. It'll be great. Make a weekend out of it. >> Yes. Come. It'll be lovely. uh Justice Department released another 3 million files uh on Friday, of course, Friday afternoon news dump. And uh a whole just mish mash again designed to make it impenetrable to people. Uh I have my own favorite part of this release and I have to admit it is a totally unimportant part, but it is just a JVL Shod and Freud special. And so because it's not

2:19 important, I will hold on to that towards the end. >> I'll do share. Come on. >> No, just say it. Just say it. Good setup. Come on, >> Peter. Aia. >> Oh, yeah. No, this is an important one. >> Mere uh hours before this happened. Uh Bari Weiss announced that she was bringing in an amazing group of of consultants and contributors to to make CBS News really relevant. people like Neil Ferguson, which is I guess how you reach new people. >> Nobody >> uh and and uh Peter Aia, who is, you know, just another longevity crank. And uh it turns out that he is mentioned, he appears 1,500 times in the Epstein files. Um I'm going to read here from a

3:05 piece uh in the Hollywood Reporter. Just just going to read one one section. Another email thread between the two men from June 2015 carries the subject line, quote, "Got a fresh shipment and begins with ASA sending an email. Epstein replies, quote, me too," with a redacted photo. After an exchange about the photo, Aia writes, "You know, the biggest problem with becoming friends with you, the life you lead is so outrageous, and yet I can't tell a soul." Ita later posted a long apology for the emails with Epstein on X saying in part and here this quote this is [ __ ] amazing. This is a piece of art. I apologize and regret putting myself in a position where emails some of them embarrassing, tasteless and indefensible are now public and that is on me.

3:53 >> He regrets putting himself in a position where his emails could become public. That's what he regrets. Can I say my favorite part of >> Barry fought very hard to keep him, but then corporate pressure from CBS, even like the Ellison were like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing?" >> And here cancel. >> Even at CBS News, the woke cancel culture mob has I'm really disappointed in Barry. I thought she was a free speech absolutist. That is tough. You know, my favorite little anecdote on Peter Aia is in his own book, something to watch out for. Anybody else here who might be looking out at a book, you know, sometimes in a book in order to gain credibility, you you write some things that you did wrong. I did this a lot. My editor was like, "Hey, take off the hair shirt."

4:38 >> I did. I made a lot of mistakes. Happy to do it. I I didn't make this mistake, though. Peter Aad mentioned in his book that his child his newborn child had to go to the back into the hospital like to the it was crisis ER in the hospital for days >> and he but he's so focused on his work >> that he couldn't go back and visit the child and he felt guilt about that he wrote about that in the book and and his wife was mad at him etc. >> Oh his wife his wife got his wife was mad he wasn't there for the birth of his child. the the sleuth went back and found out what day the baby was born and matched it to the Epstein files and he was having lunch with Jeffrey Epstein when the baby was in the in the ER and he wouldn't fly home to see his child because he's hanging out with Jeff. >> So that's that's enough to have to move

5:24 to I think you I think you don't just get kicked off CBS. I think you have to go to to Timbuktu after that. I'm sad that he's not going to be able to bring his valuable insights to CBS's audience because the woke mob came for him. >> I had a different thought on Dr. Aia who I don't know about at all. Uh JBL, you say he is one of these hacker like biohackers, longevity cranks, but he's a doctor. Yes. >> Look, there are plenty of doctors who are cranks. >> No, >> right. They're not all smarter than me just cuz they got into medical school and I didn't. >> That's I This was not meant to be a dig at you. Uh, this is meant to make a different point about why women maybe only want to have women doctors. Like this guy is in there. It because this is

6:13 something in the Epstein files that I don't know if it hits you guys the way maybe it hits uh women, but like the way men talk about women throughout these they refer to women as knee pads. That's something that in some exchanges with Steve Bannon. Um but this doctor uh in the exchanges said um that a part of the female anatomy was low calorie >> uh as part of you know I guess a a healthy diet um and and I >> the ear >> what >> was it the ear was it was not the ear it wasn't >> it wasn't but I I I think that this is where um Barry when you talk about cancel culture. Uh

6:59 cancel culture is really about like should this person be in a position of public trust, right? Is is this a person where we should get medical advice or should be in a position to tell people what is good for them? And like I would just say that uh you know women want doctors that they can trust. They want to believe that the doctors that they're working with, especially the men, uh see them as uh humans worthy of good health attention. And so to see a doctor sort of engage in this way is like an enormous breach of trust with people who are um like patients or people who would listen to him as a medical expert. And so the the way to think about this if you're Barry Weiss in my opinion is has

7:44 this person shown himself to be in his private life very much unworthy of public trust. Um and >> his public life makes him unworthy of public trust too. I mean, in fairness, >> that might be true. I just I just I get really irked by the idea that like everything is cancel culture when you seek accountability for people who are in positions of like a very specific kind of public trust. >> Yeah. I'm sorry. I I'm sorry I'm going to get us off track here for a second. I know we're going to do Epstein stuff, but there's another thing that has happened since we were last together, which is that John Lemon was jailed. And I'm not, you know, I mean, it the the definition of cancel culture is a little elusive. You know, we spent years where somebody being critiqued harshly on the internet, that was cancel culture and

8:31 they were cancelled and that was a big crisis and we actually probably >> criticized my Netflix special. >> Yeah, we need Donald Trump to be president actually to fix this because the Netflix special got criticized so harshly. That was this horrid cancer of cancer c cancel culture. And now Donald Trump becomes president. And a political foe of his who's a journalist get goes to prison because he he told his attorney general that his attorney general had to direct people to indict him. And they tried multiple times until they found a grand jury that would do it. They tried three or four different routes and and he had to spend the night in the clink. And I I don't I haven't heard a ton I I don't I could pull up the free press right now, but I haven't heard a ton from the the cancel culture crowd of concerns about that. And for me, it seems like going to jail does

9:19 feel like a little bit more of a >> cancellation than than being criticized. >> So Tim, you you and Bill had a show this week where you were talking about how, you know, the the real populist nationalism has never been tried and it turns out that everybody who was on the populist nationalist train was a fraud. It also is the case that everybody who was on the anti-woke train was also a fraud >> except Kathy. >> For them, it was all just about power >> except Kathy Young. >> It was all just about power. And as somebody who said as much during the height of this and said, "This is [ __ ] These people aren't really They just want to own things. They want to be able to do the cancelling." I was right. Always right. >> Just a quick update. I have pulled up the free press to see if there's any articles about Don Lemon. There's one actually and that's the freedom of the

10:04 press won't protect him. >> Oh, crime crime. >> Well, there it is. >> There you go. There it is. Anyway, Peter Tia, basically Dr. Spaceman. That's what I have. Uh, all right. So, you guys go and tell me what your favorite things were from the Epstein Files this time around. >> I don't know that I could characterize anything as a favorite. I have been uh I was pretty deep in them. My team has been pulling stuff. I've been sharing stuff online. Um, and I, you guys know I was kind of a I was late to the Epstein Files and then I became with the with the zeal of a convert the most engaged in the Epstein Files, right? >> Um, >> in large part because when uh everybody was like Epstein didn't kill himself and I was like it felt like the regular kind

10:50 of conspiracy stuff that was kind of in the ether at that point. Um, and I just never like I I read what he did and was like I don't want to like that is awful and it was horrible and I'm glad he's gone and like uh I hope they get whoever was with him. But I didn't like engage in sort of the the thing that I think animated the right with Cash Pat Mattel and Dan Bonino and that there were these files and that there's going to be all of these people and and they were like the more that's come out the more that everything that they complained about was absolutely true whether it was QAnon whether it was um you know whether it was >> QAnon was not true. I have heard several lib podcasters throwing that out a little willy-nilly and I do just have to just chime in. The QAnon was not true.

11:36 Okay. directionally correct. >> No, actually, not really. I would encourage you to go read some crew drops. It was not directionally correct. >> That's a little You're right. That is glib and kind of a joke. The point is is that the idea that there was a shadowy cabal of global elites who were engaging in pedophilia. Now, of course, this was all tied up in Hillary Clinton wearing like the masks of babies. And so because it was also insane, I kind of tuned it out, you know. Um and and I would hear this stuff come up in the focus groups with voters and I was just like, "Oh no, it's so bad." But it does turn out that there was a global cabal of elites who um were in fact like involved in either

12:26 and this is what where there's been no accountability yet, right? like whatever they're holding back, we do not have the co-conspirators yet, which is what you want, right? There's a what is in these documents is revoly in many ways, but unsatisfying in others because it does not give you the names except for maybe Prince Andrew of people who were engaged. >> Definitely Prince Andrew. We can >> Yeah. Right. Definitely. But I mean I mean Prince Andrew might be the only one I could think of where there is both accountability that's happened and like a direct link to the same behavior as Jeffrey Epstein. Uh which we have not gotten with the exception of you know there's these parts where like Trump's in there but then the DOJ pulls them back because they're unconfirmed allegations. And so like we're all trying to make heads or tails of this. And so I have been trying to think like

13:13 what is really contemptable in here in this this batch which many on the right are kind of poo pooing. They're like this is boring. It's just a bunch of things. It's just a bunch of emails. >> And I'm like >> sorry for partying. >> Sorry for partying. >> That's right. And so this is what you have. of Todd Blanch right now, who by the way is who in Donald Trump's administration went and gave Gizlane Maxwell her sweetheart deal at Club Fed. He's on TV yesterday saying it's not a crime to party on Epstein's Island. And you know, he's I think is a strict matter perhaps correct, right? If uh if if you were partying there and you were not engaged in getting um massages and

13:58 having sex with underage girls who were trafficked and otherwise procured, uh like maybe there were lots of parties that that didn't happen in. Sure, there were clearly lots of business trips that happened, lots of dinners, lots of >> When you're a teenager, Sarah, at like the local clubs in Philly, there'd be like 21 night and then the under 21 night. You know, sometimes on Epstein Isle there was the pedophilia nights and sometimes there was the totally legal knights. I'm sure that's how it was. >> You you say that, but like actually I think that's probably close to the truth, right? Like I think there's lots of things that he did to be in the realm of all of these different elites. He had all these business dealings, all these like interesting people, parties, so and so's coming, this person's coming. My guess is that those are different than

14:44 the people who he was like, you are here and we engage in uh the rape and trafficking of young girls, right? And I want all of those people to go to prison for the rest of their lives, right? That like that's one category of people and that is not what we have gotten yet. What we got in this trunch and part of the reason we don't have that is because of all the redactions in what is being released, right? There's a lot that we don't know. But in the back and forth, I can see sort of different categories coming up that I'd like to just run through with you guys because there are the people like Elon and like Lutnik who are people who lied actively lied about their relationship with Epstein. Like Elon is is hanging

15:31 himself right now. He's hanging his credibility on the idea that he never went to the island. Okay. Did he try to go? Did he ask for invitations? Go. Did he ask when the wildest party was? When's the next wild party? I've been working so hard. I need to come. Well, Elon, that's not how you characterized your relationship. Lutnik, uh, who says, um, oh, I met him in, I don't know, 2007. What a creep he was. There's a massage table in the middle of the room and we got out of there and never talked again because I knew what a creep he was. Oh, it turns out you did talk to him again many, many times. uh and and visited. That's a different category than So, one person I've seen jumped on is is Barry's wife, speaking

16:18 of Barry, Nelly Bulls, for being in the files. Okay. But that's diff what she was doing is a category difference. And I just I do think you shouldn't lump everybody in together in kind of a social contagion way. I think we should be able to approach this with some nuance where what she was doing is as a reporter where her job, right? And when you are a reporter and you write these profiles, you often go hang out with like weirdo people of public interest and then you write about them, which she did for the New York Times and which she's been honest about. That is very different than people who went to like one of the interesting people dinner or who was in a um and but he but I I still want to say what I can't uh I just I think they're different people who were just in business relationships with him,

17:03 whatever. What I sort of don't understand and maybe you guys could explain to me is like >> it seems like he was being socially rehabilitated >> in a lot of ways post 20 >> his his conviction and I guess you know that's the part it's like like there's the Larry Summer stuff where it's like all about the girls and asking for dating advice and being gon stuff is outrageous but like then there's this other category of stuff that's um and I also think people who came out and said a long time ago like, "Hey, I did this." Um, error in judgment or I, you know, I I shouldn't have, but like I wrote about it and here's what happened are different from the people who lied about it or characterized the relationships differently and are being disproven as liars. Now, anyway, I lay all that out

17:49 on the table. Interested in what you guys think. >> I have a thought of the re rehabilitation because I think that's the most interesting part to me. It's obviously not necessarily the most important politically or or you know, for the victims. Um, but I think it's an interesting cultural observation I want to talk about really quick though. I just I had two other things because you had a lot there. I I just wanted to say number one, have you seen the Twitter account of the is all the ways that Candace Owens mispronounces things? >> No. >> Um, I want one of those for Sarah and go and Jizlane Maxwell. Not to make fun of Sarah, but I just want to see like I want to see like 22 different pronunciations of Jizlane Maxwell all back to back for my own entertainment sake. Here's why. You know who I talk about Gizlane Maxwell with all the time? >> Who's that? >> JVL. JBL, how do you pronounce her name?

18:39 >> Yeah. Okay. I just If someone could make me a super cut, that would be great. I just It's a listener request. I'd like a super cut of everybody. Um I I also agree with you on the co-conspirators. I just want to make a really quick finer point on me. This is a Donald Trump cover up until some co-conspirators are indicted. Period. End of story. Like that. That is the bar for me. Like obviously other people molested girls besides Galain and Jeffrey and formerly Prince Andrew. Like obvious I like I I I I think it is >> Oh no, those are the only three. Tim, >> it is very hard for me to believe that those are the only three that ever inappropriately touched a woman in Jeffrey Epste's presence. And I would like to see some accountability for someone else. And until that happens, this is a cover up. Um, on the social

19:26 contagion side of the rehabilitation, I I wish um I had the woman's name. Um, and uh, but but there is literally an email about this in the emails. We're like Jeffrey is talking to some other woman and she's like, "You got to take it slow getting back in, you know, like re-entering society, you know, you got to do this a little bit at a time. You've got to use your judgment." and and like and she as the woman is like advising him on how to like get back into high society by like having parties at your fancy house, but you know, not putting your name on things too quickly. And then you see it in the emails where like one of the I think it was the Lutnick email, one of the ones where it was like he wanted to give $50,000, but he knows that his name might carry

20:13 some baggage, so you might not want to put it on, you know, it's a donation to some [ __ ] you know, thing that they were doing. And and in that case, I think Latin was like, "Whatever, it's fine. Um, we can put your name on it." But um, you know, the like so he's conscious of all this, but more than him being conscious of it, you see in the emails, a lot of the people are conscious of it, right? Like I mean, you just mentioned the AIA email. It's like, I wish I could tell people about all the stuff you're doing. You see like versions of that like throughout the emails. And and so to me this is like there is an entire other category of people that are not pedophiles but that used very extremely poor judgment and hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein. And it is, I think, an important thing

20:59 for like at some level like we're not all at that level. Like I don't get invited to Prince things, you know, um or you know, to Woody Allen dinners or like anything like that, right? But in all of our lives, like there are little things where you're like people will reach out to you and be like, "Hey, so and so wants to contribute x amount to your thing or so and so wants you to come to this thing." And you know, people use their like power and influence and access to semi-famous or famous people to like manipulate other people. And Jeffrey Epstein did this. And I just think that like there is the human frailty on display here about like how how weak everybody is and how like how badly everybody wants to hang out, you know, how it's all [ __ ] high school. how badly even the richest people in the world want to hang out

21:46 with other rich people or people that have more social capital than them because they're actors or celebrities or whatever or princes or foreign arms dealers or all the other [ __ ] crazy people I've seen was dealing with and it's just there just seem to be very few people that have like the self-esteem and confidence in themselves to just be like no like sorry I don't know this is a no for me like I don't need to hang out with you like it seems it seems is fishy and and just because whatever Roman Palanski is going to be there doesn't mean that I can say no this dinner that's a ne negative like >> yeah right I know that's what I'm saying there's there are a handful of people like J like JVL has the gift of not wanting to go to any dinners uh but like there's not a lot of people with JVL's

22:32 makeup in the CEO journalist cabinet secretary actor banker class right like >> they're all thirsty as [ __ ] >> exactly Exactly. Exactly. So to get to that level, you have to be thirsty. But then that thirst >> I don't know. I'm at a pretty high level without being thirsty. That's not I I just It's just having good judgment. Look, I got to tell you this with these rich people. This is cuz part of this is like rich people stuff. Like rich people are different than we are, right? and and when you're really really rich like everything sort of has an absolute value sign around it and you just live differently you move through the world differently you know it's like if I got really really rich

23:19 this is not how I would structure my life but that's why you're not going to get really really rich that's my point that's not that's not you by accident you might but like most people get really really rich get there because they do the networking [ __ ] thirsty back rubbing thing like it's in their DNA Hey, and and that is bad. It's like I I just so I I just I totally agree with you, Sarah. I just think it's important like as a society that we disagregate like the bad pedophilia ring thing, which is like really bad and all those people need to go to jail for life. But then there's still this other thing which is the elite, you know, scratch your back culture that is is I don't know, maybe that's not fixable. I'm not sure, but we should at least stare at it. >> We should stare at it. And also, but I also think like stare at it in part to

24:05 sort of separate things out. Like I just am thinking about how cuz I it is sort of a magnificent thing to watch Jeffrey Epstein say like so and so is going to be here. >> Yeah. >> As like bait. And this is like the kind of thing where people credential you. And so like if somebody invited me to a party and I didn't know who the person was, but I knew they were like kind of rich, kind of famous, they were like, "Well, Tim's going to be there." And I'd be like, "Okay, well, if Tim's going, I'll go." Um, now you're right. Like, I'm not saying I would go like I think it's difference because because his level of notoriety >> at the like transcends that, right? Like obviously, >> right? But no, but this chain happened over the years is your point like like immediately gets out of jail and he's got to move slowly. And so it's like you find the easiest fish, you know, you

24:51 find the Woody Allens, the Bill Gates, the Larry Thummers, the Trump, the thirstiest people, you know, and you're like, we'll find you first. Okay. And then eventually it's like, oh, hey, we'll we'll start mixing and matching the dinners, you know, we'll have the people that are that don't give a [ __ ] that I'm a pedto and maybe want to get involved with themselves and then we'll invite some other people as well and use them to, you know, like that's >> a credential that it's like fine to come. And all I'm saying is that to me is such an interesting phenomenon of how this worked. Um, and how you can see uh, without letting anyone off the hook, but like you can see how by like 2015, 2016, people are like, I don't know, everybody goes there. Everyone I know hangs out. And it is a wild uh, boy, is it just a different

25:36 >> You know what you could You know what you could do instead of going to a dinner with Woody Allen and Roman Polansky? You could just sit, you could just sit on your couch and eat some gummies. >> Boom. >> And one such gummy I would look to is our friends at Soul. They have an out of office gummy. It's been a game changer. It can help me get cozy and ease into the evening with intention. It's a simple shift, but you know, makes the night feel a little calmer and uh it can help with a more restful sleep. I heard somebody in my life, I don't want to out them, but not really the type of person you'd think would be doing CBD, not the type of person that would be doing THC. They've started to do it and they're sleep they're sleeping like a log now. So that's an endorsement. Uh Soul uh makes feeling good simple. They make delicious hemp derived CBD and THC products with precise dosing ingredients

26:22 and formulations designed for predictable feel-good effects. Soul is the alcohol alternative that puts you in control of your mind. Their bestselling out of office gummies deliver the customizable calming buzz from a 1.5 milligram micro dose for a gentle lift to the 15 mgram bill crystal for a deeper more elevated experience. It's the easiest way to unwind without the groggginess or next day regret of alcohol. If you prefer to sip something, that's me. I like their out of office beverage. Smooth social vibe, great flavors, yummy, little bubbly. That's nice. Give yourself the gift of a healthier unwind. Right now, Soul is offering my audience 30% off your entire order. Go to gets soul.com and use the code the next level. That's gets soul.com promo code the next level for 30% off. >> All right. Can we move on from Epstein? >> Never. But for now, yes. Okay. Uh

27:09 because also we have, you know, like the the the beginning movements of an attempt to steal the 2026 elections maybe. I don't know. >> I want to talk about this. >> I I don't mean to be a crazy person cuz basically every story we have today I have a conspiracy theory about. Um starting with that. >> What's your conspiracy theory? >> The suicide. I I just >> You think it's a body double too? You think it was a body double? No, I I think uh he was killed. >> I'm monitoring the body double theory. >> Yeah, I'm open to that. Look, I'm open I'm open to that. I'm open I'm open to literally anything. I just think it's so crazy and the confluence of events are so improbable. I just it seems unlikely. Anyway, um but uh you know, we have the

27:57 FBI raiding an election center in Georgia, kind of a swing state. Uh, we had Pam Bondi saying that she would call off the DHS dogs from Minneapolis from Minneapolis if the governor would simply turn her over the turn over the state's voter roles. We have Donald Trump hopping on a phone call with the agents who did the raid in Georgia. >> We have the director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, showing up at the raid. So the DNI is not doing like the invasion of Venezuela, but is instead spending her time looking at election related activity. I mean, I'm sorry, this is all highly irregular, and I understand it's like too soon to light

28:44 your hair on fire, but it does suggest that these are people who are interested in seeing what they could possibly do. >> I don't think it's too soon to light your hair. >> I don't think it's too soon either. >> Okay. It might be too soon to say like we won't have a free election in 2026. I think it's too soon to say that we're never going to have an election again or like some of this catastrophizing you hear, but like it still is a hair on fire. I mean, I we I talked about this the the raid in Atlanta before I knew about the call, right? The call is such it's so bonkers and like the FBI is raiding a warehouse where they keep ballots for 2020 based on like insane cuckoo for Coco Puffs conspiracy theories about Italian satellites and Venezuelans and bamboo like like like

29:31 totally total lunacy. Even though the Republican governor and secretary of state and multiple courts have already vetted all these claims, even though Rudy Giuliani has already lost his shirt in a civil suit based on these claims to Ruby Freeman and Sheamos and and yet still somehow they rationalize the FBI raiding the ballots. the director of national intelligence is there and then while she's there she like calls up Donald the president and is like hey what's up and he just wants to give a little pep talk to the raiders like I mean this is so far from like like it's almost like you calling it politization is like it's it's Donald

30:17 Trump is like directing rank and file FBI agents in their efforts to like falsify documents to make it seem like his conspiracies about the last election are true in order to provide a pretext for [ __ ] with the next election. Like that's what's happening. >> Which he then said he wanted to nationalize voting in 15 states. Uh 15 Sarah, I want your answer on this. The 15 states thing was interesting to me cuz Trump gets stuff caught in his head like asylum. You know what I mean? like, oh, he broke out of the the, you know, he talks about that with um uh who who was it that break that broke out of the crazy house? The late great Hannibal Lectar, you know, he's like, "Oh, he's like, I hear asylum next that makes me think about like crazy house, right?

31:03 People are breaking out of the crazy houses." Like he gets random things caught in his head. The idea that he was like, "We're looking at 15 places says to me that somebody told him that they were looking at 15 places." Like he didn't just make that number out of the out of the air. >> Yeah. which 15 places maybe they're all the swingier states uh or the places where there are key races. Um let me I want to talk about why this nationalized thing is a real turn. Um so I have long been somebody who has been certain that Trump would try to do some things in 2026 but pretty unwilling to say like we should be really skeptical we can have free and fair elections. And the reason is that federalism like federalism is the reason is that it's actually very

31:48 hard to mess with an election system like it's one of the great geniuses. One of the things that in my old conservative days we love federalism because the states had power and I have felt like federalism is the thing that was going to protect us as Donald Trump sought to do anything to mess with these elections. Like the states aren't going to let him uh screw around with their elections. here's how he's going to do it. Like he told us, now we realize um federalism can save us if Donald Trump figures out a way to convince people to nationalize the elections. Now, the other thing, and Tim, you just talked about this that I think it's the reason we should have our hair on fire is because I assumed, and I don't know if you did too, that the raid in Georgia, in Fulton County, was a

32:35 backward looking >> that Donald Trump's trying to say to people, no, no, no, I won Georgia. Which I was like, okay, bro, tell people that like you still lost Pennsylvania and Michigan, you know, like you still lost all these other places. changing the results in Michigan actually wouldn't change the results of the election, even if you somehow could prove it, which of course you can't because it's been litigated to death. And so I didn't I thought it was more like Tulsi Gabbard trying to get in his good graces after being sidelined on her real job and saying like, "Oh, I'm going to go find that fraud for you, sir." But now it is clear that it's forwardlooking. It's forwardlooking. uh both the stuff happening in Minneapolis, the stuff happening in Georgia. This is about them trying to they are I think in real tr time trying

33:21 to formulate a plan for what to do about 2026 because Donald Trump only has one animating goal which is he does not want oversight. He doesn't want oversight. doesn't want them to control any investigations, any impeachments, anything that leads to disclosure, anything that gets whatever the redacted files that are being held back uh unredacted, right? And so he he is going to be pretty desperate, which I that part I've always been clear on, but it's been sort of unclear to me h how he could do it and this is how. I mean, it's still unclear that he can nationalize them, but that's how what he's going to try, >> right? He does have a federal paramilitary force that answers only to him that has a budget larger than the United States Marines. I mean this is Bill has been on about this and I think

34:06 he's he's right to be uh you know I don't know like it is not clear that he can't deploy them to places where he wants to exert pressure to prevent people from voting. Right. >> That's true. But then you'd have Gretchen Whitmer and Josh Shapiro and a bunch of other states being like you can't deploy them here and like we're going to deploy people to protect uh and maybe that creates more chaos. I'm just saying it's >> You think Gretchen Whitmer would do that? >> I do. >> Well, but Gavin Newsome will I I mean, a lot of the House seats are in blue states, right? So, this is like the other side of where I do see I I do want to >> like you you can have your hair on fire without catastrophizing. That's the distinction I'm trying to make, you know? Yes. And like there's a lot to be very concerned about here. >> I I don't know. There's not really a way to cheat and win the house for them

34:53 besides like literally stealing the election, right? I I I all these like sort of things that they try to do, you know, um we're going to take some voting machines out of blue areas or we're going to put some scary military guys in front of the ballot box. I mean, right, like they would have to literally seize the boxes to like they're going to lose the the the House. They have a two seat majority right now. >> So, they will lose control of the House, but they could shave away some some seats from the Democratic majority, right? there marginal races where they could go in and with you have to show me which one those are. >> Yeah. And you have to have a speaker. And if you have the speaker, the point is he doesn't want oversight, right? And so it's like if the Democrats have the speaker of the house, then like they're going to have they're going to control

35:39 the committees. They're going to control the oversight committees. That's right. >> And a lot of these key races are in blue blue states and Kathy Hokll's not going to back down. Gavin's not going to back down, etc. So I I just don't like this was why the redistricting gambit was so important like they needed a cushion and they lost their cushion and that failed and so you know you do have to give kudos to Gavin on that and and and others at Spamburgger and others have stepped up. Um so like I you know that part of it is like less of a concern for me than okay than this notion of all right well once that sunk in with him on his in his little dementia rattled brain with the little flies flying around up there like what then? Right. And and do you use

36:26 that paramilitary force for other stuff? Do you try to delegitimize the election some other way? Right? Like do you do you have Mike Johnson not do you have a constitutional standoff or Mike Johnson refuses to seat people? Like >> all of that there all those categories. Um, and that's where I do think that the the gap is going to really matter because you've seen them do this in other places, right? Where like they're gonna try to steal it and then all of a sudden they get killed and then it's like, okay, you know, I mean, you notice that >> who was the guy that ran against Shapiro, >> you know, he was planning on Doug Master. >> He was planning on challenging until he lost by,00 points and then I was like, okay, well, I guess we're not going to do that. You know what I mean? And so like there there's some practicalities, >> but the Senate's important, right? I

37:11 mean, to flip the Senate, you have to win in a bunch of red states. And so, uh, >> so, and that's where they could try to do to do shenanigans, >> right? This is what I'm saying, right? Well, it's, uh, it's all very bad. My, my other conspiracy theory in this, I I sort of I tried this out on Sarah on Friday. Let me try it out on you, Tim. >> Okay. Okay. >> Oh, I like this one. >> Nicholas Maduro is the October surprise. Nicholas Maduro turn states evidence says yes the ghost of Hugo Chavez and I did steal the 2020 election and I have uh evidence for you El Presidente and my evidence suggests that these 15 counties uh are the places where we were and so you need to go in and do something to

37:57 them and there's like an emergency well we can't yeah >> we put the the tamp the the voting machines are contaminated fill in the blank. What do you think? What do you think? >> I, you know, I was very enamored with that theory initially cuz, you know, we all are grasping around for like why did we do a coup in Venezuela? You know, even still, it's like I get it. Like Marco has his has his um you know, whatever ideological prior on this. >> For Marco, it's Cuba. Separate Venezuela. >> That's the next step, right? Okay. So, that's a reason. Oil prices, I guess. Like the oil CEOs didn't really seem that excited about Venezuela, I won't say. And it doesn't seem like Trump's getting any deal. Like he's making a lot of money some other places. We're going to talk to talk about in a sec. And so

38:44 and you know the drug thing I like there was no like real sat there were a couple reasons that seemed fine in a crazy world that we're in, but like there's nothing that was like deeply satisfying. This is deeply satisfying that Trump's like, "Yes, I'm on board because because I believe or that the Venezuela is part of it or because I believe that I can use this as leverage in this quest to get to to demonstrate >> say to Maduro what he said to Zalinsky." >> Yeah. >> Remember? >> Yeah. the but the but the thing is he was asked about this in one of his little gaggles and I don't know he did he got kind of like a little troublemaking glimmer in his eye and he was like I got some maybe some people around me that are going to look into that but not me I don't know I I became a little bit less excited about the theory when I watched him answer the question I don't we're all doing

39:29 armchair psychology here a little bit on a [ __ ] megalomaniac so you can only do so much of that but um >> I don't know I'm I'm open to it I will say I'll tell you that I'm open to it >> okay I got something very fun for us, but you guys got to sit through an ad first. Okay, >> Sarah. >> All right, guys. This episode is brought to you by One Skin. We've talked before about why One Skin really stands out as a skincare company. It's not hype or just fancy packaging. It's real science. The founding team are longevity researchers who asked a deceptively simple question. If many visible signs of aging, like wrinkles, fine lines, and loss of elasticity are driven by so-called zombie cells, what if you could actually reduce those cells to slow the aging process instead of just covering it up? That research led to OS1, one skin's proprietary peptide.

40:18 It's the first ingredients proven to switch off those damaged scinsesscent cells, actually slowing skin aging directly at the source. It can be really hard to find a skincare routine that works for you or to even know where to start. Knowing I can depend on one skin and the science behind it means I can spend less time worrying about what works for me and more time worrying about whether or not our democracy is doomed. Born from over a decade of longevity research, One Skin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age. For a limited time, try Oneskin with 15% off using code the next level at onskin.co/thexle level. That's 15% off oneskin.co with code the next level. After you purchase,

41:04 they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Thanks, Oncekin. >> All right, Sarah, I have some candy for you. Tim, you already know this. I read to you from the Guardian. A right-wing Brazilian influencer who claimed Donald Trump's immigration crackdown targeted only quote crooks has been arrested by ICE agents in New Jersey. Junior Pñena, whose full name is Dilva Pñena Jr. declared his support for the US president in recent video messages to his hundreds of thousands of social media followers. Quote, I support Donald Trump. I like the guy announced the South American Tik Tocker and Instagrammer uh dot dot dot. In a previous video, Pena had urged Brazilians to stay calm and not quote

41:49 despair after reports that ICE agents were rounding up migrants, including Brazilians, but they're all crooks, the lot of them. He falsely claimed of the migrants being seized. Mr. Pñena missed a uh court hearing because of he's also of uncertain immigration status and was wrapped up by ICE. Uh, so is he a crook? >> I mean, he didn't go to his court appearance. >> Well, sounds like enough. And >> I mean, he's a scam artist, so that's something. >> Um, there's some crying photos of him on the internet. >> Are they real crying photos or are they are they doctorred crying photos? >> Do I have to know? Does it matter? Cuz can I >> Because I can't take pleasure from them if they're doctorred. I can't take I'm

42:36 not sure what that says about me. thrill to me. It seems like he's crying and I don't hate it. >> I think we can distinguish and should distinguish between regular people who voted for Trump who are suffering negative consequences uh because they thought things versus somebody who is an influencer with hundreds of thousands of fans uh who constantly advocates for Trump has been one of the main reasons or has been a a like that person's in a different category. Also though, I would like to say to >> in what way are we supposed to distinguish? I'm just just for clarity. Are we supposed to be not kind of just happy about one? >> We can take pleasure in one, but we shouldn't take pleasure for the other. >> Yeah. I think we can take pleasure in this one slash take pleasure. I think like he there are are real consequences

43:22 that he has to live with. He is he was actively making the bed uh in ways that I don't know voters maybe plumped a pillow if I'm extending the metaphor. Like I just uh the the difference is when we get old stove touchy happy I separate people like this guy. >> Who's Wait. Okay. >> So then dealer's choice. >> I'm I just go >> I want I want more though. I need I I want I want him to be a streamer. I want live streaming from inside the facility. I want to be with him on his journey back to Brazil. >> You should invite him on the show. >> You are. He's welcome on the show anytime. >> That would be be a help. >> You know who else? Can we just have a brief talk about who else I'm I get bad thoughts across my mind

44:09 sometimes as you guys know. And one that has that I was not aware of was that Nicki Minaj is not a citizen. Did you know that? >> Really? >> No. I also didn't. Wait, no. She's assumed she was from Jersey. >> She was born in Trinidad and Tobago. >> She's a Trinidad and Tobagan. And um I hear nice things about Trinidad and Tobago and I don't know maybe in 2029 she might have to go back there. I I just think that we are going to have to review some of the public figures and you know if there has to be a little some denaturalization, you know, if you're not contributing positively to society. >> Elon. >> Yeah. Elon Melania. >> Speaking of starship, >> we don't speak enough. >> Ah, look at that. Tim, you see what I

44:54 did there? >> I missed it. I was focused on Melania not speak English. So yeah, I think some denaturalization might be in order. Um something to think about. Yeah, Bad Bunny citizen actually. Nicki Minaj not. >> Hey, do you know Nicki Minaj also has um like a felon spouse and child and that that is why she is uh and that so all these like Republican influencers are hanging out with her. She's just looking for a pardon just like this guy, this influencer guy. The chances of Trump saying, "Let that guy go. He's a fan of mine." not insignificant. >> And just like SBF, SBF posted, I don't know how why can these people post from prison. We shouldn't be allowing posting from prison. I I don't think maybe that's wrong. >> Wouldn't that be cool and unusual punishment for in in modern in 2026

45:40 America, I feel like not being allowed to post it would is like denying somebody magazines or, you know, a toilet >> maybe. Well, Jeff is posting and and and he posted a too long didn't read explanation because he's got a lot of time on his hands in jail. Um about why he became more Republican in 2022. And it's like, okay, well, well, you became we can answer that. There are two reasons. Number one, you want the pardon, but number two, more importantly, like you felt a cultural affinity with your fellow scam artists. It does make sense. So once you start [ __ ] over regular people in order to enrich yourself, you start to look at Trump and being like, you know, I like the cut of that guy's jib. >> That's not all of it though. This is everybody now who has done a bad thing and found themselves on the outs

46:26 culturally rediscovers or suddenly discovers that they're that they're Republicans because they know that Republicans are just cool with rampant corruption. Right? If you're uh there's a there's some some journalists who have been uh you know done very bad things that go get rehabilitated on the right and they go find these you know your Russell Brands and all this other >> you have a journalist in mind anybody you wanted to mention? >> Uh I do have a journalist in mind. >> Did he put his penis on someone's shoulder? Was that who you're thinking of or were you thinking of someone else? >> I don't Did he put do that? Does his name rhyme with Hark Melpin? >> Yeah. I mean it was alleged alleged. There's the allegation. >> That was the allegation. I didn't know that one. >> Penis shouldering. I was that was an al I can't confirm. I don't I don't want to

47:12 go to >> who lives like this. >> Who lives like I'm sorry. >> You never just like walk into a hotel room, see a beautiful woman sitting there in a chair and just like whip it out and drop it on her shoulder. >> Do people not have jobs and families? Like I don't have time to to read a book, let alone send 5,000 different emails to 150 different people a day along with text messages and then sexually harassment. Like it's just nobody has to make dinner. >> That's the thing. That's the limiting factor for you doing children. You don't have enough hours in the day. Who has the time? >> I mean it's it probably took five minutes. It's pretty quick. It's I don't I don't think that was the the issue. So, you've been trying to change. >> I've been trying to transition us for 5

47:57 minutes because we're coming up on an hour. Uh, and you we we still have another sponsor to hear from and we need to decide. Are we going to talk about impeachment or do you guys want to do triad talk? >> I want to do both, but I definitely want to do impeachment. I want to do both. Let's do both. >> Start with impeachment. Let's see how long this takes. Proposed. It would be terrible for Democrats, should they control the House andor Senate in 2027, to attempt to impeach Donald Trump because that would only look like overreach and would turn voters in Trump's direction. Not saying I'm just proposing. >> I'm going to be serious about this >> because I hate this. I hate what I'm about to do. I hate what I'm about to say. But I I basically agreed with that

48:45 proposal. a couple months ago. I was of the view that impeaching him is pointless. They did it twice. It didn't matter. And any if if anything, if it matters at all politically, maybe there's some impact where regular voters think Democrats don't actually care about helping me. All they care about is going after Donald Trump. I don't think those arguments are crazy. Maybe Sarah will make some of them. But I hate to say this, I've been I think George is right. George Conway I think is right and you know that pains me. I know that pains Sarah maybe especially to hear that but he was on my part a couple weeks ago and he was like I he's like it doesn't have to do with politics. It has to do with the law and he's broken the law and we

49:32 should impeach him. We shouldn't do triple bankshot thinking about what the political impact will be. And I think about that and I was thinking about all the the news over the last week of the Wall Street Journal story where >> how about the world liberty financial thing right? >> Yeah. The UAE put half a billion into his company. The UA >> and nobody even noticed that story. It's just gone. >> The UAE is committing war crimes in Sudan right now. I know I know that Sudan talk doesn't make it to the top of the news these days because of all the like problems elsewhere in the world, but UAE is committing war crimes in Sudan. Sudan. It's a Sharia law country. It's an autocrat. They're selling the ships to China. They they gave a half a billion to the Trump family. A half billion dollar investment to the president's family. That's totally insane. And we need to learn more. And

50:19 and by the way, we should still learn more about Jared's money that he got from from Saudi. And I don't know how to do that. I don't know what other vehicle to do that under than impeachment. And I and I and I'm like starting to totally become a resistancefilled lunatic who thinks that we should not only impeach him once. I just let's [ __ ] impeach him 12 times. How many committees are there? Let's have every committee impeach him in every area of jurisdiction. And [ __ ] it. Impeach him 12 times. [ __ ] it. That's kind of what I'm starting to get there. I'm not there yet, but that's what I'm starting to get. And I just wanted to throw that. >> So I will before I allow Sarah to to rebut, I will say that part of George's point, which is the thing that I've been

51:05 saying since the three of us began talking about this a year ago, was that if he commits crimes and you don't impeach him, then it means it's even harder to impeach a future president who commits the same crimes. >> It's a perfectly valid argument. It's a perfectly valid argument. I I think look can I just can I I'm going to exercise one quick detour privilege. Uh yeah, one is there are you what you want in a pundant or sense makers or people who are talking to you about politics like us >> is not that they never change their mind or stay committed to a position especially when it comes to strategy. You want to find people who are rooted in certain values and those values don't change. But it is okay Tim uh or for me

51:52 because I'm also I have I have been against the idea of impeaching him for very obvious reasons which is that like we've learned some lessons over the years and that is that it engenders a rally around Trump effect uh and often becomes a tribal morass in which people cannot filter the information uh and you everybody retreats to their sides and it it doesn't always lend itself to good political and or actual ual outcomes, right? Like, can you get him removed? If we think not, then is it an exercise in futility that only serves the rally around Trump effect, right? We have to be able to evaluate that. And I think that impeaching Trump immediately on tariffs or on which he should be

52:38 impeached on tariffs like that is the power of the purse. Like he's breaking the law right now. He's like they're ignoring um like Christine Holmes should be impeached. DHS is just >> right. We did this last week. I should have started that. By the way, I was on the no and Sarah was on the yes side. It's like I want to explore the other different >> avenue. >> So, my only response to to Tim is not to say that I definitely agree or that I definitely disagree. Um because I both agree with what George is saying like but I'm I don't I'm uncertain if we've already crossed the Rubicon on impeachment being and like not a solution. Like they impeach him. Can they remove him? Would they have the votes for that? I mean, some of it depends on the election. Some of it depends on public support. Like there's if you told me

53:24 >> and even want him to be removed, >> I guess it's like, oh, great, JD. >> Yes. No, I would I would want him removed. I mean, even if it meant JD Vance, like and because if you're going to impeach him on the grounds that if you don't impeach, you are ignored to ignore the lawb breaking. Well, then you need to impeach and remove him, right? If you're going to take it seriously. >> If you're not going to be able to remove him, though, and if public opinion is still at 40%. Like there there are conditions in which I would say as a strategic matter, I don't see how this is going to serve a purpose. On the other hand, if public opinion is at 28% and the Supreme Court has started to show signs of understanding that it has

54:09 to follow the law and not Trump and uh you know I like if there and and Democrats take both the Senate and the House and Republicans are starting to freak out after the midterms because they take such a uh such a what shellacking is the Obama term, right? like well then the conditions maybe do lend itself to it. So I'm not that that that is that's how I look at it right now. >> Okay, I'm with you. I just want every either way as we continue to evolve all I want is I want every [ __ ] email and every text that Don Jr. and Eric and Jared have ever sent to a mulla or a shake or a leader of any Middle Eastern

54:56 oil fascist regime. I want every I want every contract they've ever had. And if we don't have to do that through impeachment, if there other avenues of oversight, subpoenas, that's fine. But they got to do this and that is not going to be a popular like that's not a kitchen table issue. you know, nobody really cares about what the shake is doing in in the UAE, but but I I I refuse. We cannot let it go. I refuse to let it go. >> Uh I look, I agree with that. I just again or not again, this is a spec a different matter. When I saw that uh we had the signal gate and Jeffrey Goldberg was on signal. >> Mhm. >> These guys aren't comm I was thinking about this with the Epstein emails. No one's communicating on email anymore. Like it like post 2020 like 2020 people

55:41 >> get the signal servers. Is that not possible? >> No. >> The problem if we could back over the White House. Can we do that then? Can we have the >> No, it's not technically feasible because it's encrypted on the ends. >> You have to physically hold the person's phone. >> You won't be able to do it. Um, and so I just I I I I I I think that this is one of the >> one of the things just to know as a matter of course that the corruption that is taking place right now and when the because they used to have to like the the these these Republicans aren't following any of the documentation laws >> all the all the document preservation rules of which there are a million if you work in >> Trump uses his personal phone. They're doing war plans on signal. They're doing everything onion. It's like these things no longer exist. >> They stopped doing it. Like this is this

56:28 is just >> and there's no consequences, Sarah. >> I know. >> And there should be. Then there should be. But I just That is a It's a It's a thing that I've been thinking about that's going to make all of this a lot harder. >> All right. Our show is brought to you by Green Chef. Are you annoyed with misleading healthy meals? Tired of locking in for another New Year's trend? Green Chef cuts through the noise as the trusted authority in clean eating, delivering only real farm sourced ingredients. Trust every bite with over 40 clean, customizable weekly recipes designed to give you peace of mind. The chicken with lemon. The chicken with lemon crema does not disappoint. Big winner over here. Every Green Chef box delivers certified organic produce and responsibly sourced proteins and seafood. That means avoiding

57:14 ultrarocessed fillers. You can reach your wellness goals with options like Mediterranean, high protein, high-fiber, plant-based, and more. All clinically proven to support healthier habits. And you can take control of your health without the stress when you let them do the research, meal planning, and the grocery shopping. Got a lot of things I want to do this year, and I mean to make good on them. Just look at the pinball machine behind me. For a full discussion of that, you'll have to tune in to the Secret Show. Uh, promise made, promise kept. Greenchef is going to help me commit to my health and all my other promises and leave me the space to do all the many things I'm excited to do in the year ahead. Right now, go to greenchef.com/nextlevelgraza and use code nextleg graza to get started with 50% off Greenchef plus free

58:01 Graza olive oil set in your second and third boxes. This 50% offer is only available for a limited time, so don't wait. That's code nextlegraza at greenchef.comnextlevelgraza. >> Do you have strong olive oil opinions, JVL? It feels like you would. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes, I do. >> That sounds right to me. Okay. For another day. >> For another show. All right. So, I wrote a uh two-part triad this week. What's the What's the laugh for, Timothy? >> I just know where we're going. I was pretty pretty enamored with this conceit myself. I thought I was going to going to really really reach people and touch people

58:46 >> and then what happened? >> I would say I touched them and maybe that you know this is the thing. >> Was it a bad touch? >> Was a bad touch. I think >> I write for my audience but I don't write to the audience. You know what I'm saying? and uh in my community that has grown up around the triad, like I'm just going to, you know, I'm giving them me. I'm not playing to to their biases. And so I said, you know, look, let's take it this idea of should libs be arming themselves and organizing. Let's take that that seriously. Is that a thing that people should be doing, say, in and around Minneapolis? And I sort of walked that around the around the block and uh and people people were

59:33 pretty into it. Not like overwhelming, but I would say more than 50% of of people seemed to think this is an idea worth considering. >> They were intrigued. Seriously, >> people were intrigued. Arming themselves, armed militia, >> resistance. That was intriguing. What was the other suggestion? Part two was that actually the the armed armed militia thing is is the wrong lens for this struggle and the correct lens is like civil rights and that this this should be like really a Christian Jesus kind of thing in the way that the civil rights struggle was. uh and uh and I went through the sermon on the mount and talked about how the the parallels with Minneapolis with the biatitudes are like stunning and they map almost precisely

1:00:19 onto it you know uh the peacemakers those who who thirst for justice etc etc >> how do people feel about that the beatitude path >> boy boy re in the com all very respectful I would say it's it's a very respectful conversation it's not but uh not into it People not into it want no part of what would Jesus do in Minneapolis. >> So the WWJD a little less resonant than let's arm ourselves and get ready for the civil war. >> Yes. What's it like to be me is what I want to know because this is to me this is this is what happens when maximalist JVL says we got to go do this and then you

1:01:06 know slightly more moderate Sarah suggests I don't know perhaps we ought not do that same thing or we ought not wish horrible things on these people whatever and everybody yells at me and so you know I uh and and they say JVL is right JVL is right they JVL here's the I know this that inside JVL >> liar. >> Inside JVL is two wolves. Okay, there's

…